Should/Would YOU choose God over your family if necessary?

[cranberry49]

Due to the discussion concerning the bisexual boy that was made to leave his home; many questions have arisen concerning what is the correct thing to do in a situation where Gods laws conflict with a member of your immediate family, and especially when this member resides in your home. I think many people were curious about what the bible has to say about this as well as put forth their own opinions. I welcome any comments on this issue as well as any issues surrounding religion and what the bible has to say about it. I don't claim to be a 'Christian' and I don't claim to be living a truly moral life either. I just love discussing the bible and what it has to say. I truly hope that Virgil will participate in these discussions. I think EVERYONES opinion is of value. 

[mtman]

Nov 12, 2013 19:16:34 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Due to the discussion concerning the bisexual boy that was made to leave his home; many questions have arisen concerning what is the correct thing to do in a situation where Gods laws conflict with a member of your immediate family, and especially when this member resides in your home. I think many people were curious about what the bible has to say about this as well as put forth their own opinions. I welcome any comments on this issue as well as any issues surrounding religion and what the bible has to say about it. I don't claim to be a 'Christian' and I don't claim to be living a truly moral life either. I just love discussing the bible and what it has to say. I truly hope that Virgil will participate in these discussions. I think EVERYONES opinion is of value. 

Yes,  in this case God definitely trumps immorality.....If the child had chosen to seek help,  maybe he gets a pass.....Otherwise the parents did the right thing.

[Shooby]

  Not sure what you mean of choosing God over your family per se.  But, for me, I realize that adults make their own choices in life.  And, that will include my children when they become adults.  If they choose things that are contrary to what I think is right, I may express my opinion to them, or not.  It depends.  What they do as an adult really isn't my business so much.  But as a parent of course you still will have input into your children's lives.  I do think you can continue to love your family member irregardless of what they may be choosing.  God loves us even when we stray far away from Him.  We can love our family members in those times as well.  However, we do not have to approve of or rubber stamp every choice that other people choose to make.  I don't have to agree with your choices to love you or to be your friend.  And, there is room to understand that ultimately we only stand in front of God for our own actions and everyone else is only accountable for themselves.

[busymom]

I guess it depends on the situation.  My parents were members of a church where a woman minister's husband didn't want her to be a pastor.  He wanted her to give it up, & just be his wife.  She refused, & they divorced.  In that case, I think she made the better choice. 

[Shooby]

  If you are only loving people when the are "good" or fulfilling your standard, you really are not loving them as God loved us.  God loved us to the point of the Cross and even forgiving us as we put Him to death.

[Deleted]

Cranberry I appreciated what you were saying in the other thread. I agree with your point that those that believe in a specific interpretation of the bible have to follow what it says. I am Christian in the sense that I like and believe Christ's teachings. Not so much with Paul. By my reading Paul almost completely contradicts Christ in so many areas and he does so claiming to be a disciple even though he never met Christ in life. So while I don't agree with what Virgil thinks is God's will, I do put God's will as I understand it over the popular choice. That has led me to distance myself from people who make choices I do not believe are moral.

[Deleted]

Jesus was God made man and all that.

[Shooby]

Nov 12, 2013 19:40:47 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

Nov 12, 2013 19:35:36 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  If you are only loving people when the are "good" or fulfilling your standard, you really are not loving them as God loved us.  God loved us to the point of the Cross and even forgiving us as we put Him to death.

Your post reads unclearly... it was Jesus who died on the cross.. not God.

Jesus is God. 

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 19:43:58 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

Jesus was God's son.

Some denominations teach the Trinity as One, Father, Son and Holy Ghost are just different manifestations of the same being.

[cranberry49]

I will start off by answering angels question the best that I can.

But, where in the bible does it say to reject your children & kick them out because of their sins? I get that some people believe homosexuality is a sin. What I don't get is why Jesus' preaching of not judging others & to love everyone despite their sins = need to kick them out of the house. I don't see any actual biblical basis for this reaction.

The bible really never says exactly to 'kick' your child out or reject them per se; however, it does let us know what Gods opinion of disobedient kids are AS WELL AS his take on being around anyone that he classifies as 'evil.'

To start with in 'olden' times a disobedient, unrepentant child was dealt with very seriously as these verse prove in the 'Old testament.' 


Deuteronomy 21:18-21  

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Exodus 21:17

“Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Exodus 21:15

“Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

Proverbs 23:13-14  

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


These were the Mosaic laws that the early Christians were under. We are no longer under these laws, fortunately for many. However, this gives us an idea of what God feels about this subject. 

Next the bible tells us what he expects from his followers.


Ephesians 5:3  

But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.

Ephesians 4:31 

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Then he tells us what we should do to protect ourselves and help others.

Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

James 4:4 
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.


Acts 17:30  
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

Luke 14:26  
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one


2 John 1:10
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,


Titus 3:10  
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,


2 Thessalonians 3:6  
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.


1 Corinthians 5:1-13  
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.


1 John 3:8

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil

[Deleted]

I can't imagine anything coming between me and my family.  I realize that is idealistic, but I hope I can live up to it.

[cranberry49]

I will have to take this up tomorrow. I have to leave for now. I look forward to 'chatting' with you all!

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Yes, in this case God definitely trumps immorality.....

First of all, being born gay is not a sin, nor immoral - it's BIOLOGICAL.

The Bible also was not written by God - the book is not His words - it is just that - a book written by mere mortals - the stories of God that they've created; The chapters/verses also have been altered/amended more than a few times over the centuries. The first bibles were written & set down approx 3500 yrs ago. The language, words, interpretations have all changed over time to our present King James version.

There is no specific verse that addresses homosexuality as a sin - and it's NOT something that someone suddenly makes a conscious decision to become.

Do you follow ALL the Ten Commandments strictly??


If you do, then I have to assume that you would "Honor the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" - and not take a job that involved working on your sabbath (7th day) of the week - traditionally Sunday's in most Christian religion, nor would you shop in stores on Sunday - or attend a sporting event.

"Thou Shalt Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain" - how many of you have blurted out "Oh for God's Sake or "Crissake" or "God Damn" - or "Jesus Christ!" - not in praise, but as a cuss?

If a family member broke the "Thou shalt not steal" commandment in my family, I wouldn't turn them away and shun them - the behavior would have to cease

"Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbors House" - is not just about coveting their spouse - it is about coveting their possessions.

You've never drooled and been envious of your neighbor or friend's new SUV, sports-car or big screen TV?

We're not living in the time (2013 years ago) when Christ was supposedly born - according to the Bible - written by ancient scholars and mortal men.

[Deleted]

Galatians, Ephesians and Corinthians were all written by Paul. Paul was brought up devoutly Jewish and he carried that judgemental and punishing attitude all of his life. Peter, who actually met Christ in life, strongly disagreed with many of Paul's teachings.

You will notice that the other teachings in the new testament are much less violent and unforgiving.

[Deleted]

1 John 3:8

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil

In this case it can be argued that the work of the devil is to separate people from God. This is accomplished by sinning. The best way I know to describe a sin is behaviours that separate us from God. So the Son of God appeared to destroy that which separates people from God. This leads into a whole discussion about the power of Jesus dying on the cross and the resurrection.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 19:39:56 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

I thought God taught us not to judge others?  Or do we get to pick which part of the bible we believe in when it suits us, ignoring all the rest of the stuff that contradicts it?

Actually we do. We kind of have to, parts of it contradict each other pretty severely. Really the bible is many people's stories on their relationship with God and what they feel they have learned that could help upcoming generations. It is the spiritual history of both individuals and societies. It contains lessons of what works well and what is really harmful to us. A lot of things in the bible take on a different significance when you learn who was talking to who at the time, why they were talking to them and what the culture was at the time.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 19:35:36 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  If you are only loving people when the are "good" or fulfilling your standard, you really are not loving them as God loved us.  God loved us to the point of the Cross and even forgiving us as we put Him to death.

My understanding is that the standard is to love the sinner, but not the sin. Encourage them as long as they want to good, but discourage sinful behaviour. As the joke goes, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. It's not hard to understand the idea if you think of a loved one torturing and killing little kids. Everyone is going to do everything they have to to stop that behaviour and protect the kids. The debate ensues when you start talking about behaviours people don't all agree are horrific.

[zibazinski]

Well, the GOD I believe in wouldn't make me choose.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 20:45:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well, the GOD I believe in wouldn't make me choose.

The God you believe in says its okay if your child tortures and kills children and you don't have to do anything about it?

[zibazinski]

Nope. If I removed my child from my life, it would not be for religious reasons.

[Deleted]

Out of curiosity, why would you remove your child from your life? 

[Opti]

Cranberry, I wonder how you and perhaps others reconcile the fact that many of the
books of the bible are attributed to various authors for various purposes.

Proverbs for example starts in my bible:
These are the proverbs of King Solomon of Israel, David's son: He wrote them
to teach his people how to live - how to act in every circumstance, ...

So how is Proverbs more than King Solomon's words? How can we know or
surmise in any way that all of King Solomon's words in this particular book of the bible
are fully vetted and agreed with by God?

Likewise some of the other books of the bible you quoted were originally written
as letters to various churches by Paul sometimes assisted by Timothy. As I read the beginning of 2 Corinthians it seems very based in the beliefs of the author not God,
not the Divine.

From 1:8 on he discusses difficulties they had in Asia and how they thought they
would die. He goes on in 1:11 But you must help us too, by praying for us. For
much thanks and praise will go to God from you who see his wonderful answers to
your prayers for our safety! (doesn't sound like something God would write, at least
to me.)

Much of it is very human IMO and grounded in the time the letter was written.
Its purpose shared by its author in many verses including
 2:9 I wrote to you as I did so
that I could find out how far you would go in obeying me. When you forgive anyone,
I do too. ... 2:11 A further reason for forgiveness is to keep from being out-smarted by Satan; for we know what he is trying to do.

Its my belief that God if God were to talk right now, God would say to forgive
because its the right thing to do. It wouldn't be about Satan. God wouldn't
say I'll forgive people after you. God would say I forgive people right away.


I think much of the bible is beliefs of its various authors. I think they often took
great license with their teachings to get certain points across.

Because of my beliefs I'm not sure I could come up with a scenario where I would
choose God over my family if necessary. Since I believe God is all there is, rejecting
anything to some extent is problematic. If God is all there is, there can be nowhere
God is not whether that be in a bi-sexual boy or elsewhere.

Some people define choosing God as rejecting certain behaviors or people who
do those behaviors. I don't define choosing God by the behaviors I reject.
In fact, I think the simple definition of a Christian was someone who accepted
Christ as their Savior. No other beliefs or actions required.

[Opti]

The best way I know to describe a sin is behaviours that separate us from God.

I'm not sure if it is considered a metaphysical definition, but the definition I prefer
to use is sin is simply separation from God. It would be to believe one is not
connected and part of God versus any given behavior.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 12, 2013 20:08:23 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Yes, in this case God definitely trumps immorality.....

First of all, being born gay is not a sin, nor immoral - it's BIOLOGICAL.

The Bible also was not written by God - the book is not His words - it is just that - a book written by mere mortals - the stories of God that they've created; The chapters/verses also have been altered/amended more than a few times over the centuries. The first bibles were written & set down approx 3500 yrs ago. The language, words, interpretations have all changed over time to our present King James version.

There is no specific verse that addresses homosexuality as a sin - and it's NOT something that someone suddenly makes a conscious decision to become.

Do you follow ALL the Ten Commandments strictly??


If you do, then I have to assume that you would "Honor the Sabbath to Keep it Holy" - and not take a job that involved working on your sabbath (7th day) of the week - traditionally Sunday's in most Christian religion, nor would you shop in stores on Sunday - or attend a sporting event.

"Thou Shalt Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain" - how many of you have blurted out "Oh for God's Sake or "Crissake" or "God Damn" - or "Jesus Christ!" - not in praise, but as a cuss?

If a family member broke the "Thou shalt not steal" commandment in my family, I wouldn't turn them away and shun them - the behavior would have to cease

"Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbors House" - is not just about coveting their spouse - it is about coveting their possessions.

You've never drooled and been envious of your neighbor or friend's new SUV, sports-car or big screen TV?

We're not living in the time (2013 years ago) when Christ was supposedly born - according to the Bible - written by ancient scholars and mortal men.

We were taught by the priests and nuns in Catholic grammar and high school that God does not make mistakes and everything on earth has a purpose.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 21:30:29 GMT -5 Opti said:

The best way I know to describe a sin is behaviours that separate us from God.

I'm not sure if it is considered a metaphysical definition, but the definition I prefer
to use is sin is simply separation from God. It would be to believe one is not
connected and part of God versus any given behavior.

We might just be discussing semantics. The separation from God manifests in decisions and behaviours.

[whoisjohngalt]

I wonder if it really is the case of "we have to follow G-d so you must go" or something else

I would think that if you believe in something and someone who you love deeply and dearly does something that goes against that believe, it's not that you are really choosing between the two, it's that you are hurt by the person who you perceived done wrong.  Yes, that was a very long sentence, sorry!!

I wonder if it's not that parents are choosing between G-d and their son, but simply are so very hurt, may be even subconsciously over what is happening that it's hard for them to be kind and supportive to him.

this is just a guess of mine, obviously

[sarcasticgirl]

I will pose my same question again... though I am pretty sure that it won't be answered because no one with a similar belief system will EVER answer:

it is *YOU* that has decided that homosexuality is a sin worth punishing over other sins. Not God. 
If your child got a tattoo, would you treat them the same as if they told you they were gay? If they tell you a lie? if they have two tunics and do not give 1 to a person with none? If they know the right thing to do, but do nothing?
If your daughter had the crap beat out of her by her husband to the point where she was in the hospital, would you refuse to let her leave him and not acknowledge it if she left him and remarried. (Scripture does not accept spousal abuse as an acceptable reason to leave a marriage therefore remarrying would be adultery) 

Why exactly have you deemed homosexuality to be a worse sin than those you commit every day?
 
And in the book of James says: whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 

So you have to be perfect... or you are guilty of ALL SIN. 


at any rate... the covenant of the old testament was replaced with the new testament. and the new testament says NADA regarding homosexuality. it's also the reason why you can eat pork or fish of the sea or wear most of the clothes you wear today. 

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Out of curiosity, why would you remove your child from your life?

If a family member was gay (brother, sister, child, cousin, aunt/uncle) - that is not a crime - and they're still the loving person I knew and still know and love.

But I have my own moral compass. If someone in my family (or a friend) committed a horrific crime (in the LEGAL sense - not what some book decided was horrific or a sin) - (eg: murder, molestation, abuse, arson, grand-theft) - anything that caused harm or death to someone else - I would try to understand what drove them to it - but I would be very unlikely to ever forgive them.

If it was a petty crime or something that went against my standards - petty theft, lying, cheating, adultery, for example - I would forgive if the person was remorseful, paid their dues and never repeated it.

A book does not decide for me what is right or moral and what is a sin - I do. You harm me or someone I love or cause pain or suffering to someone else or break the law with a major felony, I cannot forgive. That's MY mantra - not something a bunch of old men wrote in a book centuries ago.

I've done my own studies and research on archaeology and evolution. We have world-renowned Museum of Palaeontology here - since we live pretty close to one of the largest of dinosaur finds on the planet.

It's an eye-opening and very educational experience to visit there. The interpretive center fills you with things to really think about. the evolutional cycle started with not much more than an amoeba - this is scientific fact.

"Adam" was not created from or by God - and "Eve" was not created from Adam's rib..

[whoisjohngalt]

Nov 12, 2013 22:31:11 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Out of curiosity, why would you remove your child from your life?

If a family member was gay (brother, sister, child, cousin, aunt/uncle) - that is not a crime - and they're still the loving person I knew and still know and love.

But I have my own moral compass. If someone in my family (or a friend) committed a horrific crime (in the LEGAL sense - not what some book decided was horrific or a sin) -

OK, I can't bold your posts bc they are already so very bright, but wanted to point out that what you call "some book" used to be very much THE law for many and still is.

So, it's always interesting to me to see how people so easily dismiss religious "laws", but at the same time willing to stand up for secular legal ones.  

We've had numerous discussions on here where posters' entire argument was "well, it's ILLEGAL". 

Well, for some people, doing something that is prohibited is in their religious "law book" is just as illegal.

[whoisjohngalt]

Nov 12, 2013 22:31:11 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Out of curiosity, why would you remove your child from your life?

A book does not decide for me what is right or moral and what is a sin - I do. You harm me or someone I love or cause pain or suffering to someone else or break the law with a major felony, I cannot forgive. That's MY mantra - not something a bunch of old men wrote in a book centuries ago.

Again, that's not true, actually, bc you do, daily, do what a bunch of old men wrote in a book centuries ago - it's called a Constitution.  Also, I would argue that most laws we have on the books today also are written by old men.  So, yes, book(s) do very much decide for you what is right and what is wrong