It's Still Not Easy To Be Different/Good People Help Out

[mmhmm]

Nov 12, 2013 11:41:04 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Nov 12, 2013 9:24:41 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

One has to make a choice. Either you are going to follow the bible or you're not. It's truly as clear cut as that. No one is saying to stop loving your kids. However, when it comes to having to accept his/her behavior over what the bible teaches? Then you have to choose the bibles view; IF you want God's approval. You cannot pick and choose. No where does the bible give you that choice when it is as clear as day what the bibles take on homosexuality is.

But, where in the bible does it say to reject your children & kick them out because of their sins?  I get that some people believe homosexuality is a sin.  What I don't get is why Jesus' preaching of not judging others & to love everyone despite their sins = need to kick them out of the house.  I don't see any actual biblical basis for this reaction.

ETA - Sorry, hadn't caught up in the thread when I wrote this & see we were supposed to drop this line of discussion.  Although I still feel it is a very valid question.

I agree it's a valid question, Angel.  What you might want to do is start a thread on the Religious Discussions area of the forum.  It can be discussed there.

mmhmm, Administrator

[Opti]

Beer, I had a feeling that's why Nick lawyered up. His Dad can say anything
in the public forum and it will just muddy the waters and likely make things
worse for him. Not being 21 or older also hurts his cause at this point.

Thanks for the update in your post though. He seemed like a good kid
in the video and may have even admitted in it he wasn't perfect and
drank more than he should have. Still, in my book, being bi-sexual isn't a crime,
and I can't imagine treating a child the way he said he was treated. While I
disagree with Virgil's beliefs, I think he would have acted in a more measured way
even if he was mad, horrified, and or disgusted. I'd love more info on Dad, but
my guess is he won't say much more. If you read his response it is not unlike
how politicians answer opponents in a debate when they don't actually want to
answers the questions they've been asked. You redirect to what you want to
say about the issue and throw some mud at your opponent in hopes you
distract your listeners to the new talking points you've thrown in the waters.

[mmhmm]

Nick has good reason, IMO, to retain an attorney.  If his parents did, indeed, take the money he'd saved and a car he'd made the lease payments on, he's got reason to do so.

[mmhmm]

I neglected to put a link in for the Religious Discussions forum.  Here it is:

Religious Discussions

[Tennesseer]

Nov 12, 2013 10:30:57 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

this whole thread has just reminded my why I'm not religous....and frankly some of the opinions are repulsive.  I'd rather associate with someone who doesn't live their life according to the bible yet is a good person than associated with a bible follower who shuns people who don't meet their moral standards.

'Our virtues are often, in reality, no better than vices disguised.'

Francois de La Rochefoucauld

[Deleted]

I have some weird feelings about homosexuality. I was taught that it was wrong. At the same time, there have been gay people throughout history and I can't imagine that all those people "chose" to be something that so many other people hated. Plus, with all the things that make up who we are, how our minds and emotions work.......... from birth, how can it be impossible for people to be born gay? I can barely keep up with what goes on in my own heart and mind, I can't try to figure out what goes on in other people's. Besides, I have an unfortunate attraction to "bad boys", so I know that the heart doesn't necessarily follow any "rules".

Anyway, regardless of how I feel about homosexuality, I don't think it's ok to mistreat people just because they're not heterosexual. I don't even think it's ok to call them derogatory names, and I have no problem asking people "Why do they have to be xxxxx? They're gay, not xxxxx." In fact, the last time I said that was just a couple weeks ago.

I think having a child that's gay is scary if you love your child. Scary, because there are people out there that will hate him/her and/or harm them, just because they're gay. Who wants that for their child? I've heard people say the most hateful, homophobic things about gay people. Men who say what they'd do to a gay man if he approached them. It makes me wonder if those men are so rabid about homosexuality because deep down inside, they're confused about their own sexuality.  

I wouldn't throw my child out of the house because they're gay. I wouldn't try to "fix" him or her, or insist that they let someone else try to "fix" them. I wouldn't abandon him/her because of that, and I wouldn't love them any less than I did before. Being gay isn't the worst thing a child can do or be.

[Pants]

Nov 12, 2013 9:24:41 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

One has to make a choice. Either you are going to follow the bible or you're not. It's truly as clear cut as that. No one is saying to stop loving your kids. However, when it comes to having to accept his/her behavior over what the bible teaches? Then you have to choose the bibles view; IF you want God's approval. You cannot pick and choose. No where does the bible give you that choice when it is as clear as day what the bibles take on homosexuality is.

Being raised Baptist has no bearing on this. I was raised Baptist also. I know that where I went to church they spoke against any form of alcohol use even though this is NOT what the bible teaches. It talks against drunkards. Not alcohol use in general. One needs to see if their church is teaching by the bible or are they using mans commandments/traditions. Two very differing things. You choose which one you will follow.

Does the bible not also say in Hebrews that Jesus has formed a new covenant? And that by that covenant, old covenants are abolished?

This is the reason modern christians eat pork, can be uncircumcized, can wear mixed fibers, etc. Oh, except for that pesky men-laying-with-men thing. We're sure, even though that's in the old testament, he surely didn't mean to abolish that one... We can just pick and choose which old testament rules to follow, apparently.

ETA: Sorry everyone, mmhmmm, I was a couple pages behind.

[mmhmm]

Pants, please read Reply #170.  Religious Discussion has its own board.  I've asked that the bible, God, and religious beliefs be left out of this discussion.  None of those was even mentioned in the article linked in the OP, so let's stay with the subject.  Thanks.

mmhmm, Administrator

[steff]

Nov 12, 2013 10:30:16 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

“To be is to do - Socrates

To do is to be - Sartre

Do Be Do Be Do - Sinatra”

― Kurt Vonnegut

da doo doo doo da da da da _ the Police 

[Pants]

Nov 12, 2013 13:12:54 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Pants, please read Reply #170.  Religious Discussion has its own board.  I've asked that the bible, God, and religious beliefs be left out of this discussion.  None of those was even mentioned in the article linked in the OP, so let's stay with the subject.  Thanks.

mmhmm, Administrator

Sorry, I was behind! No more, I promise!

[mmhmm]

No problem, hon.  I do the same thing ... all the time!  I'm always in the wrong place at the wrong time! 

[swamp]

Nov 12, 2013 10:15:43 GMT -5 oped said:

Nov 12, 2013 9:54:01 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

But, the thing is: if you have raised your kids in a faith that teaches against being gay, then none of this should be a surprise when they force you to have to choose between them and Gods law. It's not like you are rejecting your child either. It's showing them that nothing can over-ride Gods rules. Sorry, but if that child chooses to act upon their urges to commit a sin and continue in it; then they have forced you to have to choose. 

Besides, living a Christian life is not a fad. It's a way of life. It's as real to you as your child is. You believe the words of God and have decided to live your whole life by them. If not? Why even bother? No one can be 'lukewarm' and expect to be saved. 

You follow ALL the words... You sure?

Apparently she does not eat the meat of cloven hooved animals, cut her hair, and does not wear mixed fibers.

[moon/Laura]

My opinion is this. I cannot now, or ever, be a part of any "religion" that preaches intolerance. That's a load of crap. Any God I might ever choose to believe in loves all, regardless of sexual orientation.

sent from my Galaxy S4

[swamp]

oops, sorry, I was a few pages behind.

I'm still waiting for Virgil to tell me what sexual activities will get you booted from his house if you aren't married.

[Jaguar]

Nov 12, 2013 11:33:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

OK mmhmm. Can someone find us more Nick or Nick's Dad's stuff on the interwebs?
I really would be interested to find out which one of them is telling the more
accurate story.


I think it is highly likely the parent's suspected but went wacko when
someone put in their faces.

I've looked and thus far haven't found anything.

[The Captain]

I'd like to go back to the question asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

We had a few quickly reply no.

Just curious, what if you found out your son was molesting your daughter and she was pregnant?  He's 17, she's 13.

Is your answer still no?  What would you do in that situation?

We all pretty much agree (I think) that child molesters are the scum of the earth, but what if one was your child and the victim was your child as well?

[Jaguar]

Nov 12, 2013 13:56:55 GMT -5 swamp said:

oops, sorry, I was a few pages behind.

I'm still waiting for Virgil to tell me what sexual activities will get you booted from his house if you aren't married.

I think it's even if you are married too.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 12, 2013 14:14:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I'd Iike to go back to theY questionT asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

We had a few quickly reply no.

Just curious, what if you found out your son was molesting your daughter and she was pregnant?  He's 17, she's 13.

Is your answer still no?  What would you do in that situation?

We all pretty much agree (I think) that child molesters are the scum of the earth, but what if one was your child and the victim was your child as well?

I would ìmagine most parents would have to separate the siblings.  You then find a place for the older sibling to live and everyone gets psychological counseling.

I doubt most parents would kick the older sibling to the curb.  I could be wrong.

The family offered ìn the scenario has far bigger internal problems that just the older sibling impregnating the younger.

[Angel!]

Nov 12, 2013 14:14:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I'd like to go back to the question asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

I didn't reply earlier, but there are absolutely situations in which I would kick my child out. That would not be my first option and hopefully any problems could be addressed before it reached that point. But, yes in cases of severe drug or alcohol abuse, or in cases where other family members are unsafe, then you have to kick out the kid.

ETA - You would hope that even in that situation you could get the kid help with counseling & such.  But, I think if you are resorting to kicking them out it is because they are refusing any help.

[sarcasticgirl]

Nov 12, 2013 14:26:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 12, 2013 14:14:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I'd like to go back to theY question asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

We had a few quickly reply no.

Just curious, what if you found out your son was molesting your daughter and she was pregnant?  He's 17, she's 13.

Is your answer still no?  What would you do in that situation?

We all pretty much agree (I think) that child molesters are the scum of the earth, but what if one was your child and the victim was your child as well?

I would ìmagine most parents would have to separate the siblings.  You then find a place for the older sibling to live and everyone gets psychological counseling.

I doubt most parents would kick the older sibling to the curb.  I could be wrong.

i would think getting the child help first and foremost. at least i would hope...

[Tennesseer]

Nov 12, 2013 14:42:56 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

Nov 12, 2013 14:26:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I would ìmagine most parents would have to separate the siblings.  You then find a place for the older sibling to live and everyone gets psychological counseling.

I doubt most parents would kick the older sibling to the curb.  I could be wrong.

i would think getting the child help first and foremost. at least i would hope...

Of couse. I guess I should have said individual and group family counseling.  I assumed it would be understood with family counseling.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 14:14:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I'd like to go back to the question asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

We had a few quickly reply no.

Just curious, what if you found out your son was molesting your daughter and she was pregnant?  He's 17, she's 13.

Is your answer still no?  What would you do in that situation?

We all pretty much agree (I think) that child molesters are the scum of the earth, but what if one was your child and the victim was your child as well?

I can think of a few things that would cause me to kick a child out of my home. Dealing drugs, violence towards me, pretty much any pattern of behavior that would compromise my safety or have me in major legal trouble because I own the property. Also, an adult child that continuously refuses to respect the rules and boundaries of living in my home, would have to move.

FWIW, I have actually forced one of my children to move out of my home, for reasons I won't get into here. Some things just aren't going to fly in a household where I'm the responsible party, no matter who it is and how much I love them.

[sarcasticgirl]

Nov 12, 2013 14:45:24 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 12, 2013 14:42:56 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

i would think getting the child help first and foremost. at least i would hope...

Of couse. I guess I should have said individual and group family counseling.  I assumed it would be understood with family counseling.

sorry- i was unclear. i was actually agreeing with you. speaking more to the "I doubt most parents would kick the older sibling to the curb. I could be wrong."  As in i would hope the first step wouldn't be to kick them to the curb but instead to get them help first. 

[thyme4change]

LOL the first thing I thought when I read the OP was that we were getting one side of the story and it was possible this kid got tossed for being 18, unemployed, using drugs, etc. All the YM approved reasons for pushing yourkid into adulthood. And his father's response to the article has plenty of reasons that it would make a little sense to have some hard discussions with your adult child.

I'm not sure whose story is closest to reality, but I'm sure neither of them are 100% accurate.

Always be skeptical when hearing one side of the story.

[thyme4change]

"I doubt most parents would kick the older sibling to the curb. I could be wrong."

The "child" was 18 and in college.  Everyone is making this sound like they abandoned some 12 year old on the subway.  I know parents who say their adult children can do whatever they want AFTER they move out.  

[chiver78]

Nov 13, 2013 8:04:23 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

"I doubt most parents would kick the older sibling to the curb. I could be wrong."

The "child" was 18 and in college.  Everyone is making this sound like they abandoned some 12 year old on the subway.  I know parents who say their adult children can do whatever they want AFTER they move out.  

not in the example where this quote came from.....

[mmhmm]

Nov 12, 2013 14:14:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I'd like to go back to the question asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

We had a few quickly reply no.

Just curious, what if you found out your son was molesting your daughter and she was pregnant?  He's 17, she's 13.

Is your answer still no?  What would you do in that situation?

We all pretty much agree (I think) that child molesters are the scum of the earth, but what if one was your child and the victim was your child as well?

I would not - could not - disown my child.  It's pretty obvious, in this situation, something has gone horribly awry, to be sure.  Professional help is in order, as is vigilance and strong guidelines as to what is acceptable and why.  Somewhere along the line the son in this example didn't get the guidelines message, or there's something very, very wrong in the boy that needs to be corrected.  That's a matter for professionals.

My first question in this scenario would be:  When and why did the lines of communication between me and my children collapse?  What can be done to correct the situation at this stage?

[The Captain]

Nov 13, 2013 8:24:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Nov 12, 2013 14:14:23 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I'd like to go back to the question asked a few pages back about if there was anything that could cause you to kick a child out of your home.

We had a few quickly reply no.

Just curious, what if you found out your son was molesting your daughter and she was pregnant?  He's 17, she's 13.

Is your answer still no?  What would you do in that situation?

We all pretty much agree (I think) that child molesters are the scum of the earth, but what if one was your child and the victim was your child as well?

I would not - could not - disown my child.  It's pretty obvious, in this situation, something has gone horribly awry, to be sure.  Professional help is in order, as is vigilance and strong guidelines as to what is acceptable and why.  Somewhere along the line the son in this example didn't get the guidelines message, or there's something very, very wrong in the boy that needs to be corrected.  That's a matter for professionals.

My first question in this scenario would be:  When and why did the lines of communication between me and my children collapse?  What can be done to correct the situation at this stage?

In the particular (not hypothetical) situation I described the son was, simply put, a very bad apple. I guess nowadays he would be classified as a narcissist/sociopath but back in the day they apparently did not ascribe that to younger people.

The family has disowned him (after 13 more years of hell - everything from stealing, drug use, dealing drugs, identity theft etc).  He should have been charged and put in jail, but excuses were made for him for way too long. Almost 20 years later he still tries to worm his way back into their lives and manipulate them. 

Not directed at you personally, but I will never understand why some parents are willing to sacrifice the safety/stability of one child (or children) for the sake of another. 

[Tennesseer]

Nov 13, 2013 8:11:10 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Nov 13, 2013 8:04:23 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The "child" was 18 and in college.  Everyone is making this sound like they abandoned some 12 year old on the subway.  I know parents who say their adult children can do whatever they want AFTER they move out.  

not in the example where this quote came from.....

Thanks Chiver.  

[Tennesseer]

Nov 13, 2013 9:00:54 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Nov 13, 2013 8:24:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I would not - could not - disown my child.  It's pretty obvious, in this situation, something has gone horribly awry, to be sure.  Professional help is in order, as is vigilance and strong guidelines as to what is acceptable and why.  Somewhere along the line the son in this example didn't get the guidelines message, or there's something very, very wrong in the boy that needs to be corrected.  That's a matter for professionals.

My first question in this scenario would be:  When and why did the lines of communication between me and my children collapse?  What can be done to correct the situation at this stage?

In the particular (not hypothetical) situation I described the son was, simply put, a very bad apple. I guess nowadays he would be classified as a narcissist/sociopath but back in the day they apparently did not ascribe that to younger people.

The family has disowned him (after 13 more years of hell - everything from stealing, drug use, dealing drugs, identity theft etc).  He should have been charged and put in jail, but excuses were made for him for way too long. Almost 20 years later he still tries to worm his way back into their lives and manipulate them. 

Not directed at you personally, but I will never understand why some parents are willing to sacrifice the safety/stability of one child (or children) for the sake of another. 

If you hypothetical is now an actual sitution (older teen sibling impregnates younger teen sibling) what was your reason for not providing the other posters all the information (identity theft,, stealing, drug use and dealing (any more?).   Withholding information is rather unethical.