It's Still Not Easy To Be Different/Good People Help Out

[justme]

Nov 11, 2013 21:43:05 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Nov 11, 2013 21:41:11 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

So you'd have the same rule if a married sister and her husband or straight couple who were friends visiting from out of town were guests in your home for the weekend? As long as they're guests, and staying in your spare bedroom, they would have to be celibate during their stay in your home.

Do people usually do it when staying at their friend's house for the weekend?

I probably wouldn't, but right now I have an inclination to do it with my hypothetical bf/spouse after I draw a mustache on my face in Virgil's house and discuss it at breakfast just for giggles.   Is it ok for crossdressers as long as they are genetically opposite?

[Jaguar]

Virgil do you see the mess that you have created here, like really.

[Virgil Showlion]

First of all, a person's sexuality IS an intrinsic part of of their identity.

So you say, and yet you can't explain how it differs from the hundreds of qualities that you don't consider intrinsic to a person's identity. That's my point.

So a known gay person (Jimmy) and his lover/mate/husband could stay ìn your home (no hanky panky) because there is no profit in alienating them. But you would have no problem alienating your hypothetical son.

I have a moral responsibility to my son. And having raised him for 18 years, my advice would presumably carry weight in his mind.

So you'd have the same rule if a married sister and her husband or straight couple who were friends visiting from out of town were guests in your home for the weekend? As long as they're guests, and staying in your spare bedroom, they would have to be celibate during their stay in your home.

When I say "discretion", I mean not making a spectacle of their sexual activity. In other words, they're being discreet.

Honestly, it's never been a problem. I can't think of anyone who's stayed with us who's been less than an exemplary house guest. Perhaps our friends and family are unusual in some regard, but we can have rousing good times at the breakfast and dinner table without ever mentioning sex.

Virgil do you see the mess that you have created here, like really.

Blame Tenn. He's the one who posted the article so that we could all gawk at the injustice of it. He got what he wanted.

[Jaguar]

I'm not blaming Tenn, I'm blaming you for this mess.

[Green Eyed Lady]

While I absolutely disagree with Virgil's stance on this issue, I recognize his right to his opinion. I know what the Bible says in this matter and I have huge issues with it.  Perhaps, if only agreeable posts are to be allowed in a thread, that should be stated in the beginning.  Maybe something like this:


"Only people who are in agreement that the parents in the posted article are demons from hell should post here."

To all the parents out there...and this is a very serious question (one that I asked my mother), is there any reason you would disown your child and kick him out of the house?  Any reason at all?

[Tennesseer]

Virgil Showlion said:

I have a moral responsibility to my son. And having raised him for 18 years, my advice would presumably carry weight in his mind.

And what if he told you he is who is and he cannot change who he is for you or anyone else?  As has happened to thousands of parents and their children in the past, the alienation was so great the parents or the child never communicated with each other for the rest of their lives.   

Would you be willing to lose your child forever?

[justme]

So you say, and yet you can't explain how it differs from the hundreds of qualities that you don't consider intrinsic to a person's identity. That's my point.

A lot of people think addiction, one thing you mentioned, is intrinsic to their identity once the are one, but you're only genetically predisposed to it - you're not an addict at birth, otherwise an infant would go off the deep end without alcohol/heroin/whatever, no? My uncle has been sober for more than a decade longer than I've been alive but he still refers to himself as an addict. And therefore his children, and I (as a direct blood relative) are predisposed to become addicts ourselves. Of the 10 cousins only one came to the point of possibly an addict an a) it wasn't his kid and b) I'm pretty sure it wasn't the same stuff. (Honestly I haven't talked to her about it, I think it got to the point of being an addiction, but she also got sucked into the court system over it early so she may have been racking up arrests before it was full blown? I'm not sure honestly.)

To me all of that is entirely different than sexuality. There was never a point in my life where I was like "hmmm do I want to kiss a boy or a girl" where there were times in my life where I was asking myself "do I want a drink" or "do I want a hit of whatever drug". Anything that can be deemed addictive I actively chose to start or not (and thankfully have not become addicted to any of it, not that I've tried a lot or well much of anything besides booze), but I've never once sat there and looked at a boy and a girl and actively chose one. Girl = maybe friend, boy = gimme one of those if he's hot. There was no choice in it.

Wouldn't you at least give someone bisexual a chance? I mean there's a chance they'd decide to "take a wife" instead of a husband.

[mmhmm]

Nov 11, 2013 23:53:08 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

While I absolutely disagree with Virgil's stance on this issue, I recognize his right to his opinion. I know what the Bible says in this matter and I have huge issues with it.  Perhaps, if only agreeable posts are to be allowed in a thread, that should be stated in the beginning.  Maybe something like this:


"Only people who are in agreement that the parents in the posted article are demons from hell should post here."

To all the parents out there...and this is a very serious question (one that I asked my mother), is there any reason you would disown your child and kick him out of the house?  Any reason at all?

No.

[Green Eyed Lady]

My mother said the same thing.  

[mmhmm]

There is no way on this earth I could ever disown my children.  I can't imagine who in the world could!  There have been times I could have pinched their heads off, but they're mine and I love them unconditionally.

[Green Eyed Lady]

My mom DID say something about beating me half to death instead (if "you did something illegal") but I think she was kidding. 

[mmhmm]

LOL, GEL!  I definitely grasp your mom's vibe!  There are times when your kids can frustrate you to the point of near insanity.  Still, they're your kids, no matter how old they get, and no matter what mistakes they might make.  They're your kids whether, or not, they meet all your expectations.  They are, after all, human beings with minds, and hearts of their own.  

[Virgil Showlion]

And what if he told you he is who is and he cannot change who he is for you or anyone else? As has happened to thousands of parents and their children in the past, the alienation was so great the parents or the child never communicated with each other for the rest of their lives.


Would you be willing to lose your child forever?

I'd hope it wouldn't come to that. If my son did present me with such an ultimatum, the only thing left to do would be to explain that I loved him, tell him that the lines of communication would always be open, tell him that I'd support him in any kind of emergency, and then simply endure the loss, hoping he'd ultimately change his mind.

Children become estranged from their parents for all kinds of reasons.

A lot of people think addiction, one thing you mentioned, is intrinsic to their identity once the are one, but you're only genetically predisposed to it - you're not an addict at birth, otherwise an infant would go off the deep end without alcohol/heroin/whatever, no? My uncle has been sober for more than a decade longer than I've been alive but he still refers to himself as an addict.

There are two separate issues: that of your uncle's nominal addiction, and that of a practicing addiction. In the case of a nominal addiction, the drive may be largely or entirely genetic. I'm concerning myself with the practice--your uncle's choice to drink or not. That much is his choice. I'm not saying it's an easy choice, but I'm not going to stand here and call the binge drinking associated with alcoholism an acceptable thing simply because the underlying urge is inborn. I've provided dozens of examples of behaviours that derive from genetic factors, traumas, special circumstances, etc. that are nevertheless wrong behaviours.

There's nothing wrong with being a nominal alcoholic. It's our words and actions that define us as moral creatures. To a degree we also have a responsibility to put away temptations and police our thoughts. An alcoholic should not take up employment as a bartender in constant arm's reach of a relapse, for example. If a pedophile finds himself ogling a young girl on the subway, it's his responsibility to turn around or even get off the train if that's what he needs to clear his mind. Regarding sexual matters, I wholeheartedly believe that "aids" like pornography, sex websites, etc. are instrumental in conditioning and perverting the mind and should be avoided.

It's an issue of how we prioritize our values, and how stringently we stick to those priorities.

[mmhmm]

Children become estranged from their parents for one reason.  Rejection.

[Virgil Showlion]

Nov 12, 2013 1:42:34 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Children become estranged from their parents for one reason.  Rejection.

And cars crash for one reason. Running into things.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

[mmhmm]

ROFL!  The way it is is the way it is, Virgil.  There are not myriad reasons why children become estranged from their parents.   There is only one reason.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I'd hope it wouldn't come to that. If my son did present me with such an ultimatum,

the only thing left to do would be to explain that I loved him, tell him that the lines of communication would always be open, tell him that I'd support him in any kind of emergency, and then simply endure the loss, hoping he'd ultimately change his mind

First of all, your "hypothetical" son probably wouldn't present you with an ultimatum - they "might" come to you and finally tell you that they're "different" than your brand of normal.

They might ask for your understanding that they're still your child, and they love you and that you you accept them as the loving human being they are - which might also include believing in and following the same religious path as you do. (There are probably gays in your church - you just don't know it).

You cannot hope he'd "ultimately change his mind" to appease his father - it's not a matter of choice - a person does not wake up one morning and decide to be gay .

[zibazinski]

Actually, yes. I almost did it to DD and that was to save my sanity. She put me through hell for many years and finally I had had enough. Told her she was old enough to make her own decisions but to not involve me in them anymore because I couldn't take it anymore. I have rights too and that includes not watching her self destruct. Funny enough, after that COME TO JESUS moment, she improved, somewhat. But I would have done it because self preservation is paramount to me. Being gay isn't, for me anyway, a COME TO JESUS moment, but we all have our own lines in the sand. Btw, I have never had sex in someone else's home when I was a guest!!!

[zibazinski]

And I still think they were douche canoes for stealing his money. Virgil, I know you're not new here. Don't you realize if you don't spout the party line, you're going to catch shit? I'm surprised you're still a moderator.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 1:11:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

And what if he told you he is who is and he cannot change who he is for you or anyone else? As has happened to thousands of parents and their children in the past, the alienation was so great the parents or the child never communicated with each other for the rest of their lives.


Would you be willing to lose your child forever?

I'd hope it wouldn't come to that. If my son did present me with such an ultimatum, the only thing left to do would be to explain that I loved him, tell him that the lines of communication would always be open, tell him that I'd support him in any kind of emergency, and then simply endure the loss, hoping he'd ultimately change his mind.

Children become estranged from their parents for all kinds of reasons.

A lot of people think addiction, one thing you mentioned, is intrinsic to their identity once the are one, but you're only genetically predisposed to it - you're not an addict at birth, otherwise an infant would go off the deep end without alcohol/heroin/whatever, no? My uncle has been sober for more than a decade longer than I've been alive but he still refers to himself as an addict.

There are two separate issues: that of your uncle's nominal addiction, and that of a practicing addiction. In the case of a nominal addiction, the drive may be largely or entirely genetic. I'm concerning myself with the practice--your uncle's choice to drink or not. That much is his choice. I'm not saying it's an easy choice, but I'm not going to stand here and call the binge drinking associated with alcoholism an acceptable thing simply because the underlying urge is inborn. I've provided dozens of examples of behaviours that derive from genetic factors, traumas, special circumstances, etc. that are nevertheless wrong behaviours.

There's nothing wrong with being a nominal alcoholic. It's our words and actions that define us as moral creatures. To a degree we also have a responsibility to put away temptations and police our thoughts. An alcoholic should not take up employment as a bartender in constant arm's reach of a relapse, for example. If a pedophile finds himself ogling a young girl on the subway, it's his responsibility to turn around or even get off the train if that's what he needs to clear his mind. Regarding sexual matters, I wholeheartedly believe that "aids" like pornography, sex websites, etc. are instrumental in conditioning and perverting the mind and should be avoided.

It's an issue of how we prioritize our values, and how stringently we stick to those priorities.

I agree with you 100% Virgil. I also believe what the bible says about being gay and I know if one is following Gods rules versus mans it is not an easy thing to do. We become open to all kinds of mockery and termed as 'cold hearted' simply because we choose to have a stance in life and refuse to buckle to the mass. However, I find comfort in what the bible says when confronted with issues like this. The first being where the bible says you cannot love your son, daughter, mother, etc more than him (God). Which means exactly what you say here.  Standing by the laws of the bible versus man-made, etc. The next is knowing that even Jesus was mocked and made out to be a bad person by a majority of the people at that time. Stand strong, my friend. You will be blessed for it. 

[Opti]

Zib, I didn't give Virgil (much) grief because his views are well known and I think
he would have been much more fair than what was originally reported. The father's
statement does throw some doubt on the situation, but given the control freak
nature of his 4 points, I don't believe he's as benevolent and forgiving as he paints
himself.

I'd love to see more evidence of Nick's and the parents true beliefs instead of
dealing with Virgil and his views. He's not going to change them any time soon
and I'm confident had the situation happened to him and his wife he would
have had the child move in a controlled fashion, not taken his money, and if the
car was indeed leased and he wanted to take it back it would have been in a
planned and controlled fashion as well. There's a huge disconnect in this story
and as a reader its tough because Nick decided the best course of action was to
lawyer up. Nick tells that a friend of his had to drive him home after work because
his parents took the car while he was working. I would have expected the friend
to post if it wasn't true or his friends to have posted if it was blatantly false.

Also, it was an interesting response and didn't address any of the points Nick made
directly. Dad says Nick wouldn't take the car and Nick says the car was taken from
him while he was at work. Dad says Nick wasn't forced to move and Nick says he
found his stuff outside the home when he got off work. Its a pretty big divide.

[zibazinski]

No kidding. We never know the whole back story. I know a lot of people think I'm mean to DD. I've rarely shared what DD has done to deserve any of this treatment because its in the past and I'm trying very hard to forget about it. But years of bad stuff don't get washed a way in a couple of years of decent behavior. She's a work in progress but I do see light at the end of the tunnel. She still makes poor decisions based on loser men but, at least, she won't be a loser herself. Although I didnt want her to join the military, at least she would have been surrounded by mostly decent people. One of the reasons I wanted her in boarding school.

[zibazinski]

Even I couldn't have vented on this forum, I'd have gone nuts. I think of Home 6.  I'm sure, like me, she doesn't tell half the crap she endures. I couldn't even tell my friends what I was going through.

[sarcasticgirl]

My parents are pretty strict southern baptist... They, like Virgil, believe homosexuality is wrong and immoral. However, they have stated on several conditions that if any of us came out as gay, their love and treatment of us would remain the same. I had gay friends in HS and college that my parents were nice and accepting and treated like everyone else. I have a gay cousin and my parents bent over backwards to help her when her house burnt down.
It makes me sick when people use religion as a reason to be discriminating against gay people. Especially Christians. I grew up in a baptist church and that is sure as heck not how the bible told me to act.
I don't know if the parents' action were religiously based or they are merely asshats (either way they are asshats) but it is disgusting and disgraceful. They should be ashamed of themselves. And I feel for the kid. There are enough hurdles in this world for anyone much less a gay kid and to have your own parents be like that... Makes me sad.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards

[sarcasticgirl]

Nov 12, 2013 2:04:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

ROFL!  The way it is is the way it is, Virgil.  There are not myriad reasons why children become estranged from their parents.   There is only one reason.

Sorry but sometimes it is the child's choice and not the parents. And the parents may desperately want their children in their lives... I have seen it first hand.


Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards

[cranberry49]

One has to make a choice. Either you are going to follow the bible or you're not. It's truly as clear cut as that. No one is saying to stop loving your kids. However, when it comes to having to accept his/her behavior over what the bible teaches? Then you have to choose the bibles view; IF you want God's approval. You cannot pick and choose. No where does the bible give you that choice when it is as clear as day what the bibles take on homosexuality is.

Being raised Baptist has no bearing on this. I was raised Baptist also. I know that where I went to church they spoke against any form of alcohol use even though this is NOT what the bible teaches. It talks against drunkards. Not alcohol use in general. One needs to see if their church is teaching by the bible or are they using mans commandments/traditions. Two very differing things. You choose which one you will follow.

[Deleted]

  and that is why I choose not to follow. 

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 9:24:41 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

One has to make a choice. Either you are going to follow the bible or you're not. It's truly as clear cut as that. No one is saying to stop loving your kids. However, when it comes to having to accept his/her behavior over what the bible teaches? Then you have to choose the bibles view; IF you want God's approval. You cannot pick and choose. No where does the bible give you that choice when it is as clear as day what the bibles take on homosexuality is.

Being raised Baptist has no bearing on this. I was raised Baptist also. I know that where I went to church they spoke against any form of alcohol use even though this is NOT what the bible teaches. It talks against drunkards. Not alcohol use in general. One needs to see if their church is teaching by the bible or are they using mans commandments/traditions. Two very differing things. You choose which one you will follow.

You can still love your children.  You just can't have a relationship with them.

[Deleted]

I'd choose a relationship with my kids over a relationship with god. In fact, I already have! 

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 9:28:55 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Nov 12, 2013 9:24:41 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

One has to make a choice. Either you are going to follow the bible or you're not. It's truly as clear cut as that. No one is saying to stop loving your kids. However, when it comes to having to accept his/her behavior over what the bible teaches? Then you have to choose the bibles view; IF you want God's approval. You cannot pick and choose. No where does the bible give you that choice when it is as clear as day what the bibles take on homosexuality is.

Being raised Baptist has no bearing on this. I was raised Baptist also. I know that where I went to church they spoke against any form of alcohol use even though this is NOT what the bible teaches. It talks against drunkards. Not alcohol use in general. One needs to see if their church is teaching by the bible or are they using mans commandments/traditions. Two very differing things. You choose which one you will follow.

You can still love your children.  You just can't have a relationship with them.

And that is my point, exactly.  However, you can have a relationship with them (unless they have been baptized and disfellowshipped from the congregation.) This is something entirely different though-- and I'm NOT going into that.


 But, you cannot approve of the behavior. You cannot accept the chosen 'partner' with open arms. You cannot allow such behavior in your home. Because if you do, then you are giving your approval and this is totally against the bibles principals.