It's Still Not Easy To Be Different/Good People Help Out

[cranberry49]

I never said any of the things that you people are 'assuming' that I've said, or hinted at. I'm only stating that if one chooses to live by the bible then one has to do it. Simple as that. You cannot pick and choose!

[mmhmm]

Let's not get into quoting bible verses, please.  The place for that is the Religious Discussions board. - mmhmm,  Administrator

[billisonboard]

“To be is to do - Socrates

To do is to be - Sartre

Do Be Do Be Do - Sinatra”

― Kurt Vonnegut

[Deleted]

this whole thread has just reminded my why I'm not religous....and frankly some of the opinions are repulsive.  I'd rather associate with someone who doesn't live their life according to the bible yet is a good person than associated with a bible follower who shuns people who don't meet their moral standards.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 10:24:02 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

Nov 12, 2013 9:54:01 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

But, the thing is: if you have raised your kids in a faith that teaches against being gay, then none of this should be a surprise when they force you to have to choose between them and Gods law. It's not like you are rejecting your child either. It's showing them that nothing can over-ride Gods rules. Sorry, but if that child chooses to act upon their urges to commit a sin and continue in it; then they have forced you to have to choose. 

Besides, living a Christian life is not a fad. It's a way of life. It's as real to you as your child is. You believe the words of God and have decided to live your whole life by them. If not? Why even bother? No one can be 'lukewarm' and expect to be saved. 

but the thing is... it is *YOU* that has decided that homosexuality is a sin worth punishing. 
If your child got a tattoo, would you treat them the same. If they tell you a lie? if they have two tunics and do not give 1 to a person with none? If they know the right thing to do, but do nothing? 

Here's a little verse that people love to forget:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

so please, go ahead, and keep on pretending that because you aren't gay you are much less of a sinner than someone who is. 

It is not ME that has decided anything. It is God and God has the final say. Not me. Not you. Like it or not.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 10:30:57 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

this whole thread has just reminded my why I'm not religous....and frankly some of the opinions are repulsive.  I'd rather associate with someone who doesn't live their life according to the bible yet is a good person than associated with a bible follower who shuns people who don't meet their moral standards.

And that is your choice. Thank goodness we have choices!

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2013 10:23:33 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 10:15:43 GMT -5 oped said:

You follow ALL the words... You sure?

Nope. I Never claimed to be living a 'Christian' life. But, if one does? Then they have to do their very best and not 'deliberately' do things that they know to be wrong. AND if one does fall and fail at times (as they surely will!) because of weakness, the bible tells us to repent and Go and sin no more! It does not tell us to continue in the sin and then go and ask for forgiveness, repeat and repeat. I can tell from Virgils posts that he is trying very hard to live by biblical principals and I applaud him for this! This is the reason for my posts. To help and explain his position. Not that I have too, but I felt the need because of all the hateful statements flung his way. 

Cranberry, I personally like both Virgil and you and I respect that you are so strict and literal in your beliefs.  But I also want to make sure you understand that I don't agree with your thoughts and choices regarding homosexuality.  I think it is wrong, unhelpful and intolerant.

[Deleted]

I, too, respect that Cranberry and Virgil are so committed to their beliefs. Even if I do not agree with them. 

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 10:26:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

A lot of people forget "He who is without sin cast the first stone" too. 

First off, I never said I don't sin; secondly, there is a difference in failing because of weakness and deliberately participating in something that you know to be wrong, either for biblical reasons or not.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Nov 12, 2013 10:23:33 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nope. I Never claimed to be living a 'Christian' life. But, if one does? Then they have to do their very best and not 'deliberately' do things that they know to be wrong. AND if one does fall and fail at times (as they surely will!) because of weakness, the bible tells us to repent and Go and sin no more! It does not tell us to continue in the sin and then go and ask for forgiveness, repeat and repeat. I can tell from Virgils posts that he is trying very hard to live by biblical principals and I applaud him for this! This is the reason for my posts. To help and explain his position. Not that I have too, but I felt the need because of all the hateful statements flung his way. 

Cranberry, I personally like both Virgil and you and I respect that you are so strict and literal in your beliefs.  But I also want to make sure you understand that I don't agree with your thoughts and choices regarding homosexuality.  I think it is wrong, unhelpful and intolerant.

I understand, and thank you.   No problem. It's not easy going against the flow and I expect no less. 

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2013 10:34:44 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 10:26:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

A lot of people forget "He who is without sin cast the first stone" too. 

First off, I never said I don't sin; secondly, there is a difference in failing because of weakness and deliberately participating in something that you know to be wrong, either for biblical reasons or not.

Define "weakness"

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

So it's okay for me to throw rocks at people I "know" are doing something wrong even though I'm not sinless either, but as long as I can say I didn't do it on purpose but that person did I'm good.

And only God can judge people but it's okay for me to judge my kid and kick them out of the house for being gay because I know it's wrong and he's going to hell even though only God has the final say on that.

If you can do the mental gymnastics needed to be able to reconcile all the contradictions more power to you. 

[Opti]

If one truly...with all of their heart..believe in what the bible says? Then yes! There is but one right way and that is Gods way. I'm not ashamed or scared to state this. It's not my way. It's not your way. It's Gods way!

The thing is the bible can be interpreted many ways and is. Some believe they take it
literally, some only take it up to the old testament because they believe the Messiah
did not come plus there are metaphorical and metaphysical ways of interpreting the
bible as well.

Now it is people not God that teach that the bible instruct's you of God's ways
and that those ways are unchanging since biblical times. Now since I believe
God is all there is, God by definition is change itself. There are several biblical
scholars of my aquaintance, two of the ministers of the church I grew up with.
I have some deep and studied reasons for believing as I do. I have chosen to
believe that the verses in the bible against homosexuality are more about the
times that the bible was written in more than anything else. The highest precepts
of the bible are all sins are equal, there are only souls not male and female, etc.
I believe those high precepts are far more important than all the lower laws
especially when I can find an example in the bible that basically recommends a host
prostitute his daughters instead of letting men consensually pleasure each other
under a host's roof. I choose to believe that the Divine would not want someone
to give away a child's virginity to a man just to stop that man from having
consensual homosexual relations

We can all choose to believe what we want. If the bible was interpreted as God's
way the same way by everyone there would be no different religions, no splits
in denominations. There would be only one. But there isn't. There are many. I
was brought up Lutheran and there were 3 or 4 main denominations when I was
growing up. Two joined together and after I graduated in college I know one big
debate was how to view homosexuality as a denomination. I think in the end, the
ELCA, chose a message of inclusion but it was a very long (years) process of debate
among the churches and inside them.

[sarcasticgirl]

Nov 12, 2013 10:31:02 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

Nov 12, 2013 10:24:02 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

but the thing is... it is *YOU* that has decided that homosexuality is a sin worth punishing. 
If your child got a tattoo, would you treat them the same. If they tell you a lie? if they have two tunics and do not give 1 to a person with none? If they know the right thing to do, but do nothing? 

Here's a little verse that people love to forget:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

so please, go ahead, and keep on pretending that because you aren't gay you are much less of a sinner than someone who is. 

It is not ME that has decided anything. It is God and God has the final say. Not me. Not you. Like it or not.

Yes, and god does NOT say that we should treat people who are gay differently than someone who sins in a different way. It is MAN that has decided that being gay is MORE sinful than some other sins. There is no bible verse that says it is. 

Like I asked: If your child got a tattoo, would you treat them the same as if he/she said they were gay. If they tell you a lie? if they have two tunics and do not give 1 to a person with none? If they know the right thing to do, but do nothing? etc. 

Don't worry- no other person with the same stance on homosexuality will answer my question either. everyone just seems to not have an answer. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

My Comparative Religion professor, also a theologian, said it drives him up the wall that people focus on less than 1% of the bible and tend to ignore the other 99% because that <1% justifies their own intolerance and/or political agenda.

Wish I'd had time to take more classes with him.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 10:36:41 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 12, 2013 10:34:44 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

First off, I never said I don't sin; secondly, there is a difference in failing because of weakness and deliberately participating in something that you know to be wrong, either for biblical reasons or not.

Define "weakness"

Well, for starters how about someone that has been under terrible stress and suddenly they shout at a child and say something that they shouldn't? They were caught at a vulnerable moment and became weak and gave into ugly behavior. Now take this same person and say that he/she talks this way to the child all the time, or most of the time. Wouldn't you say that this behavior is a deliberate choosing? One behavior was done when one was weak, the other because they are deliberately doing it and not trying to control the bad behavior.

Or, take a woman/man that has been treated badly by the spouse and this person is feeling really down and sad. Someone comes along and is really nice and showers this woman/man with kindness and attention. So, one day the woman/man has a drink and becomes 'weak' with alcohol and ends up alone with the admirer and before you know it they end up in bed. Later on this person is so sorry and the conscience is killing them. This person would confess the weakness and pray for forgiveness and NOT be unfaithful anymore. This can be done by avoiding situations that could tempt such behavior in the first place. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

So, one day the woman/man has a drink and becomes 'weak' with alcohol and ends up alone with the admirer and before you know it they end up in bed

So if I commit adultery, which is also a big no no, it's okay and I'm forgiven because I couldn't help myself in a moment of weakeness even though, FYI, alcohol can't make you do anything you don't want to do already.

I can decide my sin was a "moment of weakness" and since I'm sorry we're all square now.  I'm free to weigh and judge the sins of others.

I can be judge/jury/excutioner even though it's only God who gets to decide who is forgiven and who is not.  For all I know there is a giant black mark against me too.  I won't know till I get up there.   Yet I can spend my time on Earth deciding everybody else is condemened because clearly their sins are worse than mine.

[Opti]

I think it was admirable that Cranberry chose to put up those examples even though
most of us are going to disagree with them to varying degrees.



It is one reason I prefer how my non-denominational "church" teaches about how
God works in and through us. There are no crutches about weakness or using
Satan to blame for our failures. There is just the acknowledgement we steer
our own ships whether fully rested and in perfect control or when we are exhausted
and out of patience. The behavior is ours and we should own it and move through
it if we desire to change it to something we believe is better.


Its understandable we all get to points we aren't at our best. And how we choose
to view people at those points is dependent on what we believe. In practice
I have problems with some Christians and some Christian denominations because
apparently some slip ups are forgiveable and some are not. IMO the bible says all
are forgiveable if one chooses God. IMHO that means a bi-sexual young adult
and a woman who drowns her sorrows in alcohol and another man have the same
ability to be forgiven and right to be forgiven.

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 11:00:13 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

So, one day the woman/man has a drink and becomes 'weak' with alcohol and ends up alone with the admirer and before you know it they end up in bed

So if I commit adultery, which is also a big no no, it's okay and I'm forgiven because I couldn't help myself in a moment of weakeness even though, FYI, alcohol can't make you do anything you don't want to do already.

I can decide my sin was a "moment of weakness" and since I'm sorry we're all square now.  I'm free to weigh and judge the sins of others.

I can be judge/jury/excutioner even though it's only God who gets to decide who is forgiven and who is not.  For all I know there is a giant black mark against me too.  I won't know till I get up there.   Yet I can spend my time on Earth deciding everybody else is condemened because clearly their sins are worse than mine.

That's not what I said at all. I was asked to explain weakness and that's what I tried to do. Everyone judges in one way or another. To not judge does not mean to not decide what is acceptable behavior or not. That's why the bible was written. To give us guidance and to enable us to use our brains. We are not to judge someones worthiness. However, we inadvertently have to judge behaviors.  Therefore, the scripture to 'meditate' on these things is there for a reason.

[cranberry49]

IMO the bible says all
are forgiveable if one chooses God. IMHO that means a bi-sexual young adult
and a woman who drowns her sorrows in alcohol and another man have the same
ability to be forgiven and right to be forgiven.

And you are right! The point I'm trying to make is that one is a moment of weakness and the other is deliberately done! The entire bible is based on this. Over and over again we read about the weaknesses of Gods followers. However, the main point that always shines through is that the person made changes in the behavior to please God. 

No where am I saying that adultery is right! Or even that one can blame alcohol. I'm simply stating that a slip up is NOT the same as deliberately living ones life contrary to the scriptures --and especially to say that is approved by God and then to teach others the same.

[mmhmm]

Cranberry, your religious beliefs are important to you, just as others' beliefs are important to them.  Scriptures are your way of determining right and wrong.  Others have other ways of determining those same things.  This is a board of adults.  Each of us has our own beliefs and someone on a message board isn't going to change them.

*We need to take the bible, and scripture out of this discussion.  There is nothing in the article, from Nick or his parents, about the bible, God, or religious beliefs.  That has sprung up on this message board.  Let's get back to the subject of the discussion and leave the bible and God out of it.  -mmhmm, Administrator

[cranberry49]

Nov 12, 2013 11:27:52 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Cranberry, your religious beliefs are important to you, just as others' beliefs are important to them.  Scriptures are your way of determining right and wrong.  Others have other ways of determining those same things.  This is a board of adults.  Each of us has our own beliefs and someone on a message board isn't going to change them.

*We need to take the bible, and scripture out of this discussion.  There is nothing in the article, from Nick or his parents, about the bible, God, or religious beliefs.  That has sprung up on this message board.  Let's get back to the subject of the discussion and leave the bible and God out of it.  -mmhmm, Administrator

As you so wish. It is done.

[mmhmm]

Thanks, cranberry.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Back to the OP I knew a lot of people who got kicked out when they came out of the closet back in high school.  Quite a few ended up homeless because family didn't want to get involved.  Some couch surfed with friends. 

It was a shame and a lot of LLs and apartments around here refuse to rent unless you're 21 and/or have a co-signer.  So not a lot of options for a teen kicked out of the house.

[Opti]

OK mmhmm. Can someone find us more Nick or Nick's Dad's stuff on the interwebs?
I really would be interested to find out which one of them is telling the more
accurate story.


I think it is highly likely the parent's suspected but went wacko when
someone put in their faces.

[mmhmm]

I haven't seen any other information than that which is contained in the updated article from the OP, opti.

[Deleted]

There won't be any more updates in the near future:

From huffingtonpost.com:
Nick is hurt by the allegations that have been presented against him, and wishes to respond point by point, but he will not engage in a public back and forth with them, and will only state that he disagrees with his father’s version of events. On the advice of the attorney Nick is not going to make any more public statements at this time but may in the future.

[Angel!]

Nov 12, 2013 9:24:41 GMT -5 cranberry49 said:

One has to make a choice. Either you are going to follow the bible or you're not. It's truly as clear cut as that. No one is saying to stop loving your kids. However, when it comes to having to accept his/her behavior over what the bible teaches? Then you have to choose the bibles view; IF you want God's approval. You cannot pick and choose. No where does the bible give you that choice when it is as clear as day what the bibles take on homosexuality is.

But, where in the bible does it say to reject your children & kick them out because of their sins?  I get that some people believe homosexuality is a sin.  What I don't get is why Jesus' preaching of not judging others & to love everyone despite their sins = need to kick them out of the house.  I don't see any actual biblical basis for this reaction.

ETA - Sorry, hadn't caught up in the thread when I wrote this & see we were supposed to drop this line of discussion.  Although I still feel it is a very valid question.

[cranberry49]

I can't answer your question, Angel. Mmhmm doesn't want me talking about it. Sorry.

[Tennesseer]

Virgil Showlion said:

"I'd hope it wouldn't come to that. If my son did present me with such an ultimatum, the only thing left to do would be to explain that I loved him, tell him that the lines of communication would always be open, tell him that I'd support him in any kind of emergency, and then simply endure the loss, hoping he'd ultimately change his mind."

I believe you know there are two parties involved with your hypothetical son's banishment from your home.  Because your son's position with such an order would be:

'I'd hope it wouldn't come to that. If my dad did present me with such an ultimatum, the only thing left to do would be to explain that I loved him, tell him that the lines of communication would always be open, tell him that I'd help him in any kind of emergency (if he accepted), and then simply endure the loss, hoping he'd ultimately change his mind.'

A pity it would come to that.  Like throwing the kid out of your home for being left handed.