HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 12:14:56 GMT -5
But DSD was living with her mom most of that time, right? So how comfortable was mom making it to have a relationship with the ex in-laws? I was raised by people other than my mother and they made me feel like shit all the time for wanting to know my bio-family. No, they've been very intertwined. They are in a religious group thing together. They spend a LOT of time together. The grandmother and the mom spend a lot of time together, too. They all "get" along well enough. Proximity and time is not the problem.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 12:15:49 GMT -5
But H can't. He can't take the risk that she would say FINE and never see him again. It would kill him
DH sounds like he could use some counseling too.
And while I get you're the step-parent and the mindset on the boards seems to be you should sit on the sidelines you are still DH's spouse. Let him know even if bio-mom does not have his back YOU do and you'll be there to support him no matter what.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 24, 2013 12:17:52 GMT -5
I can't imagine myself in a situation like this. I can't imagine what it must be doing to all involved. I do know this: If I were HBBQ's DH, the kid would get one message from me. You WILL meet with me on <this date>, at <this time>. At that time, we will discuss all matters concerning our relationship up to the present and all changes that WILL take place if you ever expect to see one more dime from me. You WILL be there. If you choose NOT to be there, this will be our last communication. You are an adult. Make your own choices. I will abide by those choices with regard to our future. That would be the end of it. This isn't a two-year-old entitled to throw tantrums. This is a young woman, going to school and preparing to enter the world on her own (hopefully). It sounds like the behavior you've described isn't something new, and it isn't something being directed only at your DH, Honey (even her brother wants little to do with her). If your DH and her mother could get together and present a united front to help untangle this kid from her own headlong run toward self-destruction, that would be a Very Good Thing, IMO. I agree. And that's the way *I* would handle these things. But H can't. He can't take the risk that she would say FINE and never see him again. It would kill him. Though he may be getting to the end of his rope. Her behavior when his mom was in the ICU was beyond despicable. I think a meeting with mom and DH would be good. I'm not sure the mom would be ok with it. She is almost as bad as DSD. And they are not on the same page. Mom things we should just give DSD everything she wants and that "our" behavior is the cause of all of DSD's problem. She's seeing things in a very 1 dimensional view. SDS asked for $250. We didn't give it to her. That's why she's mad. Not all these deeper and likely more valid reasons for her anger (At least towards us). Of course when DSD is mad at her OWN mom and she calls H to complain - it's because DSD is a brat, not because she did anything wrong lol. So there is a lack of unified front. And always has been. Maybe they could work something out and do that. I don't know. The mom has really lead the way for thinking we are a bottomless pit of money. She has never had to really work for her money, either, so she has no respect for the financial aspects that we do. Sadly, it's not that he can't, honey. He won't. He's letting fear control him and she's using that fear to batter him every chance she gets. What she did when her grandmother was so very ill is, indeed, inexcusable. DH has to realize that and stop excusing it. It isn't going to stop until someone besides SD ends it. Sorry SD's mom is that type. I'd hoped for better. Nevertheless, I'd do exactly what I said I'd do. To me, that's my responsibility. We don't only raise a kid, we raise a person. Is SD the person your husband wanted to raise? I don't think so, and I think only a last-ditch Herculean effort is going to help that come to pass. If the kid decides to continue with her contrary ways, there's nothing DH can do for her. Let her mother provide for her demands if she's willing to do so while being treated worse than a house mouse.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 12:22:40 GMT -5
Yeah... I think H is coming to that conclusion that he can't be this check-writing doormat anymore. I think he is just trying to figure out the strategy. I wrote an email yesterday that had a letter for DSD in it that he could use as a template outlining the choices. I'm not sure he'll use it or not, but he liked it. He just needs to get the balls to send it and live with the consequences so to speak.
I think part of it is that we have a friend who got divorced when his kids were teenagers. The daughter never spoke to the Dad again.... and I think it's been 20 years. He has grandkids he's never met.
How do you live like that? I don't know. That's a big big broken heart. How do you ever become whole again after that if she never comes back around?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 12:25:39 GMT -5
He's letting fear control him and she's using that fear to batter him every chance she gets.
I get it too because it's HARD to see thru the manipulation tactics and call their bluff. It'd also be a horrible burden if they did decide to do X. But unless your DH wants to spend the rest of his life dealing with SD as she currently is, costing himself relationships with the other people in his lives along the way he's going to have to figure out how to make peace with the fact that he can't control how she reacts he only has control over his own reactions.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 24, 2013 12:27:17 GMT -5
\ Why has DSD not gotten to know MIL? Hm. If DSD is just now 18, then for most of that time, forming the relationship wasn't in her control and frankly wasn't her responsibility. She may have been a bratty teen, but that's the parents' and MIL's job to form the bonds when she's a child and then teen. If the foundation hasn't been laid, then it's a little much to expect an 18 year old to suddenly want to pitch in to do the work to form the relationship. I'm a huge fan of tough love. But you have to have the "love" foundation before the "tough" part can be effective. If all the kid gets or perceives is the "tough" part, then the message is not "tough love", it's that "my parents are assholes."
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 12:29:58 GMT -5
But he has to replace the checks with something that shows he cares. Quitting his financial support without giving something else in return will just confirm SD's worst fears and everything ex said. You can't make people accept things you give. He has tried to give time, effort, his concern, his help. If she won't take it he can't make her.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 12:30:00 GMT -5
How do you ever become whole again after that if she never comes back around?
Fortuatenly my brother came back around but during that year we didn't speak I had to constantly remind myself that being his doormat forever is a far worse fate. The game was designed to make me pay for being born first. I wasn't going to suffer because of something outside of my control. If he thought his life would be sunshine and unicorn farts w/o me I'd grant his wish. God knows my life became more peaceful.
I also focused on my relationships with people on the outside of the drama. Sacrificing my relationship with DH, putting Gwen thru the drama and potentially severing my relationship with my parents wasn't worth it. I stood to lose a lot more than I gained if I'd kept speaking to my brother.
It hurt like a mofo and I cried a lot but I made peace with it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 24, 2013 12:31:33 GMT -5
But DSD was living with her mom most of that time, right? So how comfortable was mom making it to have a relationship with the ex in-laws? I was raised by people other than my mother and they made me feel like shit all the time for wanting to know my bio-family. No, they've been very intertwined. They are in a religious group thing together. They spend a LOT of time together. The grandmother and the mom spend a lot of time together, too. They all "get" along well enough. Proximity and time is not the problem. Maybe I'm missing something, but how does that jibe with a MIL in ICU who says she wishes her GD gets to know her? Either there's some major drama/emotional manipulation going on there or the GD doesn't know her; which is it?
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 12:32:10 GMT -5
Hm. If DSD is just now 18, then for most of that time, forming the relationship wasn't in her control and frankly wasn't her responsibility. She may have been a bratty teen, but that's the parents' and MIL's job to form the bonds when she's a child and then teen. If the foundation hasn't been laid, then it's a little much to expect an 18 year old to suddenly want to pitch in to do the work to form the relationship. MIL is just saying that she would have liked it if DSD had asked "How are you feeling grandma?" And listened to the answer instead of talking about herself and what she wants/needs/desires. MIL is saying her grand-daughter is so self involved that it actually hurts her. And that is saying something. MIL is the NICEST person you'll ever meet. And cares very very deeply about her family. It's her whole life. And for the most part, MIL has been immune to the rantings and ravings of the teenage angst. But when she says something like this, it's because something is not normal, not ok, and not right.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 12:32:48 GMT -5
But he has to replace the checks with something that shows he cares
Till SD is willling to reveal whatever it is that she feels DH needs to provide her all replacing the checks with something else will do is give her a new way to manipulate him and break his heart.
BTDT till it call came out my brother hated my guts for being born first. What exactly am I supposed to do to fix that attitude? Short of inventing a time machine I can't "care" that hate out of him.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 24, 2013 12:33:05 GMT -5
But he has to replace the checks with something that shows he cares. Quitting his financial support without giving something else in return will just confirm SD's worst fears and everything ex said. You can't make people accept things you give. He has tried to give time, effort, his concern, his help. If she won't take it he can't make her. He can keep showing concern with emails, texts, letters, cards. Even if she doesn't respond or responds like a little brat, he can keep the lines of contact open EX: Good morning text from DH. DSD: I hate you. DH: Sorry to hear that. I'd prefer you not speak to me that way. I hope you have a nice day and I'm thinking about you. DSD: I want money. DH: I'm sorry, I can't do that right now DSD: Screaming tirade. DH: I'm sorry you feel that way. Please don't talk to me that way. I love you. Have a good day.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 12:34:14 GMT -5
You're right swamp. Kill them with kindness I guess.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Oct 24, 2013 12:36:24 GMT -5
Ummm... I'd like to think I was a pretty unbratty kid, but at 18, I don't remember being all that interested in asking my Grandparents how they felt. I think your MIL is asking a little too much from your SD. I'm more of a brat now because I don't call my only living Grandparent at this point because she can't talk to me without criticizing me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 12:41:21 GMT -5
I agree on a day to day basis. But Grandma was in the hospital! Asking if she's feeling better wouldn't be extraordinary to me, anyway. Actually IIRC, at 18 I would have asked my parents how she was doing. If she was in for an extended period of time I would have made one visit if I was in town. During my freshman year of college I was incommunicado until Thanksgiving break. ETA: We're "no news is good news" kind of people.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 24, 2013 12:41:28 GMT -5
I think the phone call for $50 is DH being as manipulative as SD and also feeds into her desire to control when and where he jumps. What is to stop her from wanting $100 and refusing to call till he ups the amount?The money thing needs to stop because that's a huge source of manipulation. Yeah DH didn't name terms upfront but that's water under the bridge. If he wants the crap to stop he has to stop shoveling it. She'll freak out just as anyone who is used to pulling the strings will but it'll go a long way towards taking back control and establishing boundaries. The downside if this is she may "never speak to him again" and he needs to be prepared for that. But he can't keep spinning his wheels. They will definetly end up permenately estranged if he keeps playing games with her AND it's going to damage his relationships with Honey, his new daughter and his son over time. I understand she may be hurting and has a warped sense of reality but you can't just give them their way and bend till you snap. All it does is enable them and keep feeding into their delusions. Since SD seems to either be unwilling or incapable of breaking the co-dependent cycle they're in then DH will have to do it. Simple - no call - no money. When her fundage gets low, she'll call. My whole rationale for this is that the $$ seems to substitute for attention for the SD. The money is the carrot to open the lines of communication. Honey and DH don't even know why the SD wants to change her major. It would be nice if they could find out, whether its genuine, or SD finding herself, or whatever. A 50% scholarship is nice, but what really are the job prospects there? Lots of supply, not a lot of demand. There's a lot of people with talent out there to compete with. But anthropology, while it sounds fascinating, probably has very limited job prospects as well. It would be nice if they could just talk about it a little bit, or about anything else going on in SD's life. 18 is a confusing age--expected to be an adult, but not really. You're old enough to go to war, but not to buy alcohol.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 24, 2013 12:41:49 GMT -5
Hm. If DSD is just now 18, then for most of that time, forming the relationship wasn't in her control and frankly wasn't her responsibility. She may have been a bratty teen, but that's the parents' and MIL's job to form the bonds when she's a child and then teen. If the foundation hasn't been laid, then it's a little much to expect an 18 year old to suddenly want to pitch in to do the work to form the relationship. MIL is just saying that she would have liked it if DSD had asked "How are you feeling grandma?" And listened to the answer instead of talking about herself and what she wants/needs/desires. MIL is saying her grand-daughter is so self involved that it actually hurts her. And that is saying something. MIL is the NICEST person you'll ever meet. And cares very very deeply about her family. It's her whole life. And for the most part, MIL has been immune to the rantings and ravings of the teenage angst. But when she says something like this, it's because something is not normal, not ok, and not right. A recurring theme here is that the SD is too focused on her emotional issues to be able to be a caring "adult" and interact appropriately with others. Not to be too simplistic, but it appears from what you've said that one of two things is true: 1) SD has some mental health issues (could be addiction but could be other mental health issues) that are creating a crisis for her. People in the throes of a mental health crisis are not capable of just snapping out of it, and if this is the case, she needs help. She is not being bratty, she needs help, just like she would if she had a bacterial infection or physical injury. or 2) Every adult around her (since it sounds like her bad behavior is not just directed at you and DH, but also at MIL) has not fostered a healthy relationship which nurtures her and teaches healthy boundaries and interaction. Either through neglect, permissiveness, inappropriate interaction, whatever, she has not been taught what she needs to learn and has not been required to learn it. IMHO, in either of those cases, SD needs your DH to step up and figure out what's going on. He needs to step in a be a father, no matter how hard or painful it is. Running away because she's awful to be around is - sorry to be blunt - selfish. This situation totally sucks, but so does a lot of parenting. It's hard, it's thankless, it's painful, but it's your job if you want to do it well. I think your DH wants to do it well, he's just overwhelmed at the thought of all the work and pain required and that's understandable.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 12:42:03 GMT -5
Ummm... I'd like to think I was a pretty unbratty kid, but at 18, I don't remember being all that interested in asking my Grandparents how they felt. I think your MIL is asking a little too much from your SD. I'm more of a brat now because I don't call my only living Grandparent at this point because she can't talk to me without criticizing me. That is ridiculous, I'm sorry. And 18 yr old kid visiting her grandmother in the ICU knows enough to ask how that person is feeling.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 24, 2013 12:46:32 GMT -5
But he has to replace the checks with something that shows he cares
Till SD is willling to reveal whatever it is that she feels DH needs to provide her all replacing the checks with something else will do is give her a new way to manipulate him and break his heart. BTDT till it call came out my brother hated my guts for being born first. What exactly am I supposed to do to fix that attitude? Short of inventing a time machine I can't "care" that hate out of him. Obviously, he doesn't hate you for being born first. There is something he perceives that you got by being born first that he didn't get. Attention? Respect from your parents? Your parents' time and energy?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 12:47:48 GMT -5
My whole rationale for this is that the $$ seems to substitute for attention for the SD. The money is the carrot to open the lines of communication.
I get where you are coming from and if this was a NORMAL relationship I might even agree with trying the idea. Problem is it's not normal, it's extremely dysfunctional. Now we're adding on DH being manipulative and trying to pull SD's strings. Which will in turn make her pull harder on his to gain back control. She'll now know she has him by the short and curlies because he's dangling what she wants (money) in front of her.
And round and round they'll go till things explode.
Swamp's method of responding to her texts is a better approach. It shows the lines are still open but the response is neutral. She has to become aware her tactics aren't going to work anymore and a simple non-confrontational reponse to her outburts is a good start.
Cutting off the money train is another good start. Apologize for not making the terms clear up front but in light of current events the honor system isn't working. This is how it's going to work from this point onward. Don't like it then figure out how to pay for school yourself.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 24, 2013 12:50:44 GMT -5
Yeah... I think H is coming to that conclusion that he can't be this check-writing doormat anymore. I think he is just trying to figure out the strategy. I wrote an email yesterday that had a letter for DSD in it that he could use as a template outlining the choices. I'm not sure he'll use it or not, but he liked it. He just needs to get the balls to send it and live with the consequences so to speak. I think part of it is that we have a friend who got divorced when his kids were teenagers. The daughter never spoke to the Dad again.... and I think it's been 20 years. He has grandkids he's never met. How do you live like that? I don't know. That's a big big broken heart. How do you ever become whole again after that if she never comes back around? I don't know, honey. It would be devastating, I'm sure. Still, as I see it, it would be far more devastating to watch my own child destroy her life and the lives of those who tried to love her and care for her. That looks like the choice DH is up against. If he lays down the law and she bolts, there's a pretty good chance she'll come around once she realizes the fool she's made of herself (or, alternatively, when she grows up and finds out what her nasty ways have gotten for her). If things continue as they're going now, I see a far smaller chance of anything good EVER coming of it.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 12:51:58 GMT -5
There is something he perceives that you got by being born first that he didn't get. Attention? Respect from your parents? Your parents' time and energy
I have no idea but being the Bank of Big Sister and taking verbal abuse hurled at me on a fairly regular basis wasn't accomplishing anything.
I can't give him anything that he wants because I'm not in control of our birth order. If he's mad at our parents that's between him and them?
What exactly do you propose I should have done to "fix" his delusional attitude that I'm somehow at fault for everything that was wrong in his life?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2013 12:55:30 GMT -5
Unless your brother thinks that all of his troubles would vanish if he had only been born first, I agree with milzard that it's something else. But that doesn't mean that you had to put up with any of it! I think you have done a great job!!!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 13:01:00 GMT -5
But that doesn't mean that you had to put up with any of it!
Exactly. And it drove me absoutely insane to watch my parents take his crap. I understand it was harder for them since they are his parents vs the fact I'm his sister but it really didn't do anybody any good for them to keep playing his game.
He seems to be coming out of it but I find it hard to believe the 2.5 years of crap were worth it. I think things could have been nipped in the bud a lot sooner resulting in far less damage.
Honey's DH has the choice of ending the cycle now or keep going and praying she eventually snaps out of it.
Personally from experience option #2 is a far worse deal. Take back what control he can and end this shit before it spirals further out of control.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 24, 2013 13:01:08 GMT -5
At one point in our lives, my daughter didn't speak to me for nearly two years. I didn't even know where she was, for sure. I had some idea, as friends kept me posted, but she was on the move quite a bit. She was 18 at the time and being a royal pain in the backside. She was going to do things her way no matter what the consequences. After two bail-outs (monetary), I announced the end had come. She was welcome at any time, but no more money would be forthcoming. She could go to school, get a job, or starve. It was up to her. She wandered around for awhile and wouldn't contact us. We were living out of the country but she knew I'd be with her as quickly as I could get to her if she needed me. She was in England with a paid one-way ticket to the States that she could use but could not change. It was an ugly time, and full of misery for DH and I. She's was a stubborn kid and it took awhile for her to admit "defeat", but she finally did. Fortunately, stubborness becomes determination when the bearer of it finally grows up.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 24, 2013 13:04:08 GMT -5
I'm glad she came around, mhmm. That must have been a very hard 2 years for you.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 24, 2013 13:06:22 GMT -5
It sure was, honey! My DH and I cried together at least once a week for most of that period of time. So, you can tell your DH I've been there, and done that. There is an answer, but it's not an easy one. It hurts like hell. For us, it worked. The erstwhile "little monster" is in her 50s and doing wonderfully, with a marvelous husband, home, and life. In the end, it worked.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 24, 2013 13:09:54 GMT -5
I can't say my relationship with my brother is super rosy but we're back on speaking terms and he has a good relationship with Gwen. I'm not letting my guard down fully till I see he actually has his act together.
It ended with us a lot faster than it did between him and my parents. I do think it partly has to do with I refused to enable him anymore. My parents continued to spiral down the drain with him and it's cost them A LOT.
IMO it seems twice as painful to indulge and just wait for them to "grow out of it" than pull of the band-aid and take back control of your life.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 24, 2013 13:10:02 GMT -5
There is something he perceives that you got by being born first that he didn't get. Attention? Respect from your parents? Your parents' time and energy
I have no idea but being the Bank of Big Sister and taking verbal abuse hurled at me on a fairly regular basis wasn't accomplishing anything. I can't give him anything that he wants because I'm not in control of our birth order. If he's mad at our parents that's between him and them? What exactly do you propose I should have done to "fix" his delusional attitude that I'm somehow at fault for everything that was wrong in his life? Nothing. It's absolutely not your fault. There are advantages and disadvantages to any place in the birth order you may fall. It is up to your parents to deal with whatever perceived slight he has about it. They're his parents, you are not. Sometimes people will say their problem is one thing when it is only tangential to the real issue because they are incapable of putting their finger on it. I guess that's why therapy exists.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Oct 24, 2013 13:15:10 GMT -5
Ummm... I'd like to think I was a pretty unbratty kid, but at 18, I don't remember being all that interested in asking my Grandparents how they felt. I think your MIL is asking a little too much from your SD. I'm more of a brat now because I don't call my only living Grandparent at this point because she can't talk to me without criticizing me. Seriously?!?! you wouldn't have any interest about how a grandparent in the hospital felt? that seems pretty darn bratty and horrible to me
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