The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 24, 2013 10:56:35 GMT -5
A few years back we had an incident where a kid took his parents car without permission, picked up two of his friends, and decided to go joyriding at 2am in the morning.
While driving around the group is discussing how much their lives sucked and they decide to end it all. The kid starts driving at full force toward a brick wall. The other two kids change their minds and scream at him to stop.
He doesn't. The girl in the front passenger seat is killed, the boy in the back seat is crippled for life.
The driver, injured but makes a full recovery. We hear the sob story about how rough his life is, how it doesn' make sense to ruin another life, yadda, yadda, yadda. He gets a slap on the wrist and house arrest, after the parents of the dead kid plea for leniency.
Several years and many more slaps on the wrist later he almost kills someone driving while stoned out of his mind. He is now in jail hopefully for life.
Some fuck-ups are too big to brush off as a one-time mistake.
I pass that wall to and from work every day. It is about 1.5 miles from my house. Every anniversary someone puts a new memorial up, which the business leaves in place for a month before taking down.
We are making way too many excuses for our children.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 24, 2013 11:04:12 GMT -5
I don't know. I do know that there have been cases like that where the parents of the deceased kid didn't want to have two lived ruined. The kids were friends, the parents were friends and the parents pleaded with the court to keep the kid out of jail. When I was in high school this happened. I didn't know the boy that died very well as he went to the other school in our town but the driver was a kid I had known since elementary school. No alcohol or drugs involved. We have a road down by the river where if you are driving fast enough you catch air going over the bumps and hills. They were joyriding one night and attempted to catch air. J lost control of the car and it slammed roof first (so the front end was pointed down) into a very large tree. The boy in the passenger seat was killed, the driver and three other passengers received some pretty serious injuries. The two boys were best friends, had done sports and things together for years leading up to this. The boy that died was also an only child. This was 20 years ago- the charged the boy with something (I can't remember what) mostly so that his parents insurance would have to pay for the funeral expenses and that sort of thing. The other boy's parents never blamed the driver but J blamed himself. I remember going back to school that fall (happened over summer break) and he was a shell of his former self. There was talk of sending him to juvie and things along those lines but the parents of the boy who had died were very against any punishment for J. They felt that by losing his best friend that he had been punished more than enough. I absolutely wouldn't want this child in jail. it was a stupid mistake, yes... but he wasn't completely drunk off his a$$ and driving around. to me, that is something totally different. and the question is, at what point in their lives do these teenagers go from being protected to treated as if they were a grown adult out drinking and driving home and killing someone?
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 11:05:02 GMT -5
Wow. All just too sad for words.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 11:12:25 GMT -5
Ok. I guess I need to moderate what I said earlier. I would not want my child's whole life to be obliterated by one mistake, but I also don't believe in letting them off the hook. And I think that letting them off the hook for smaller stuff can contribute to bigger mistakes...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 11:12:44 GMT -5
Lena, I use to tell my children that the danger in lying to me was that one day they might be telling the truth even though it sounds like a lie and they'll need me to believe them and be on their side, but if they've been lying to me in the past I probably won't believe them when they're telling the truth. For many things, how I handled situations depended on whether they were honest. For example, if one of them broke a lamp and admitted they were the one to accidentally break it..... ok, accidents happen. If I know you broke it, and you know you broke it but you lie about it, it's not ok and now you're in trouble for lying. They never did figure out that a lot of times, by the time I asked them a question, I already knew the answer. Sometimes they told the truth, sometimes they still lied if they thought they could get away with it.
My son wasn't an angel, plus if you'll steal, you'll certainly lie. There was no money in the wallet when I found it. The money appeared after I started raising hell, before we went to the school. The boy didn't know how much money was still in the wallet when I asked him how much money was in there. If he gained an extra $60 by lying about how much money he had, oh well, shit happens. My son should have never had the wallet in the first place. Since he did take it, I wasn't going to risk the other kid having to go home and explain to his Mom why he didn't have all the money she'd given him that morning. Then I would've had to deal with the other Mom too and God knows what else. It just seemed like the right thing to do.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Sept 24, 2013 11:12:50 GMT -5
Exactly. Kids get a lot of stimulation from the outside world, but they learn it first from home, and the people who raise them. If the interaction they hear is harsh and demeaning, it becomes all they expect, and if they hear that early, there's no reversing it later on. But even worse, sometimes - no interaction at all. I've seen parents just not pay attention, express little if any emotion, no hugs, no smiles - just a total lack of engagement. I don't think one is better than the other. I just wonder which does more damage - negative interaction or no interaction? I think we'll get our answer in about 5-10 years when the generation of kids who grew up surrounded by screens of all kinds start to make their way in the world. We already have adults who never got any interaction from their parents growing up walking among us. The hyper-screened kids will either make their presence known in obvious ways or blend in with the masses. My bet is that the hyper-screened kids are going to grow into somewhat dysfunctional adults with weak social skills and the attention spans of a gnat. But, I am an unabashed Luddite so take anything I say in that regard with a huge grain of salt. Fellow Luddite here. I'll split the grain of salt with you.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Sept 24, 2013 11:41:32 GMT -5
Ok. I guess I need to moderate what I said earlier. I would not want my child's whole life to be obliterated by one mistake, but I also don't believe in letting them off the hook. And I think that letting them off the hook for smaller stuff can contribute to bigger mistakes... I think you need to have kids face the consequences of their decisions early. Excusing a bad decision and protecting a child from consequences only means the child will make a larger bad decision later on, with the added pressure for parents that the ramifications are even worse. Cheat on a test in middle school? Nope, don't want to punish that because it'll affect the kid's entrance into HS gifted program. So you don't do anything and the kid cheats on a HS test, which affects college. Stealing a candy bar as a 6yo has much lighter consequences than stealing a prom dress as a teenage. If you excuse the early stuff, it'll always come back worse.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 24, 2013 11:47:04 GMT -5
This makes me even happier to not have kids... I certainly couldn't deal with parents like those in the OP.
if my dog ever pulled a stunt like this, I'd cancel his Barkbox and take away all his rawhide bones!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 11:48:51 GMT -5
This makes me even happier to not have kids... I certainly couldn't deal with parents like those in the OP.
if my dog ever pulled a stunt like this, I'd cancel his Barkbox and take away all his rawhide bones!The powers that be would probably put the dog down.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 24, 2013 12:09:23 GMT -5
This makes me even happier to not have kids... I certainly couldn't deal with parents like those in the OP.
if my dog ever pulled a stunt like this, I'd cancel his Barkbox and take away all his rawhide bones!The powers that be would probably put the dog down. someone should do the same thing to these parents.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 12:12:24 GMT -5
The powers that be would probably put the dog down. someone should do the same thing to these parents. If there are any black, jewish ,hispanic or asian parents I'm sure we could find someone for the job.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 24, 2013 12:15:02 GMT -5
I guess I am the opposite. I try to err on the side of believing my kid, at least until they do something that really blows our trust of them.
I think you're in for a rude awakening, Archie. My sister is dealing with this with her oldest daughter right now. She is 17 and a senior, gets excellent grades, has a passel of very polite, nice kids and can lie without batting an eye. My sister had heard things from her oldest son and middle daughter, but thought it was sour grapes.
That was, until my sister went to retrieve her shoes out of her daughter's closet and found a backpack full of empty beer bottles. THEN she got the whole story. Turns out that one of her 18 year old friends had been reserving a hotel room and they had been having parties at the hotel. I'm thinking my sister's about to change her parenting paradigm!
Not sure why my niece was so stupid to leave the evidence in her closet though. It would have been easy enough to the bottles in a store trashcan somewhere.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 12:15:56 GMT -5
I guess I am the opposite. I try to err on the side of believing my kid, at least until they do something that really blows our trust of them.I think you're in for a rude awakening, Archie. My sister is dealing with this with her oldest daughter right now. She is 17 and a senior, gets excellent grades, has a passel of very polite, nice kids and can lie without batting an eye. My sister had heard things from her oldest son and middle daughter, but thought it was sour grapes. That was, until my sister went to retrieve her shoes out of her daughter's closet and found a backpack full of empty beer bottles. THEN she got the whole story. Turns out that one of her 18 year old friends had been reserving a hotel room and they had been having parties at the hotel. I'm thinking my sister's about to change her parenting paradigm! Not sure why my niece was so stupid to leave the evidence in her closet though. It would have been easy enough to the bottles in a store trashcan somewhere. Hopefullly it will be a slow awakening.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 24, 2013 12:21:42 GMT -5
Is that how you interpret being seen but not heard?
I think the constant eating out, waiting for service is actually a rather modern phenomenon. I don't think it was a norm in prior generations.
As for guilty till innocent, no. Would require proof of guilt. But then, if you are guilty, you are responsible for your actions.
I was also raised similarly. We were taken out for weekly dinners about the time my youngest sibling was 4. At that time, we were expected to sit at the table and carry on a conversation with our parents. I guess that this would have been in the late 60s/early 70s.
Since going out to eat was such a treat, none of us were willing to destroy it for the rest, because there was no doubt in our minds that if we did not behave, that was going to be the last time we were so treated until WE were footing the bill ourselves!
Finally, proof of guilt isn't so easy. An adult sees your child breaking a window. Is that sufficient proof or do you need to have a video of it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 12:49:33 GMT -5
My Mom use to tell me she'd trust me until I gave her reason not to. Being trustworthy gave me a lot of freedom. I was smart enough not to screw that up. My Mom wasn't mean when I was growing up, but she was a force to be reckoned with when she was upset. I absolutely did not want to deal with my Mom being really upset with me. It was just easier and a lot more fun to try to stay on her good side.
My younger brother wasn't afraid of her wrath like I was, maybe because he was a boy, maybe because he started acting out so young, he never got to experience the benefits/freedom of being a fairly good kid like I did. Plus by the time he hit his teens, my Mom had a lot of personal issues and her parenting was different with him. We're almost 8 years apart in age.
I went to a lot of parties, but if I'd arrived at one and found out it was a wild party that involved trespassing, underage drinking and property damage, I would've been out. I didn't want my Mom to have to talk to my teachers, let alone angry homeowners, lawyers, and/or the police.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 24, 2013 12:52:50 GMT -5
I went to a lot of house parties as a teen and participated in lots of underage drinking. Howvere, as soon as things got rowdy or things started getting broken, I was out of there.
My parents knew I drank, but as long as I wasn't driving, destructive, or stupid drunk, they were ok with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 12:55:06 GMT -5
My parents knew I drank, but as long as I wasn't driving, destructive, or stupid drunk, they were ok with it. That is so cool.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 13:06:37 GMT -5
Finally, proof of guilt isn't so easy. An adult sees your child breaking a window. Is that sufficient proof or do you need to have a video of it?
That's a fine line to walk, and IMO, there isn't a one-size fits all kind of answer. Sometimes adults make mistakes or lie too. For example, while I think most adults wouldn't knowingly lie and blame a child for something they didn't do, I wouldn't necessarily automatically believe an adult that I suspect might have a hidden agenda. Nor would I necessarily automatically assume my little darling is an angel that would never ever do such a thing. It just depends. Some people are in denial, but most of us know our children. And even with that, sometimes they still shock you and do things you wouldn't have thought they would do.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 24, 2013 13:19:36 GMT -5
And even with that, sometimes they still shock you and do things you wouldn't have thought they would do.
And this is where my sister is at with her daughter. And the funny thing about this is that her daughter is on the dance team and the leader of the team last year got tossed off the team for doing the exact thing that her daughter was doing (they also have a zero tolerance policy.....provided they get caught). My sister discussed this at the time with my niece and my niece assured her mom that there was no way she would do anything like this.
I think that the other issue is that her other 2 kids TOLD my sister that their sister was not where she said that she was, and she didn't believe them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 13:28:41 GMT -5
Well, I have no problem with my kids using electronic devices until the food comes. We have lots of other times to talk. Usually when we are waiting for food we are all doing our own zone and regroup, catch up time. Then we come back together for conversation over food. I would just not choose to assume someoneus doing it wrong cause their kid gets a ipad during wait time... Honestly, the parentis wrong if the kid misbehaves, and they are wrong of the kid is electronically entertained... We're working on a very narrow definition of 'right' there...
as for proving guilt, I agree that it's situational.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Sept 24, 2013 14:04:38 GMT -5
Well, I have no problem with my kids using electronic devices until the food comes. We have lots of other times to talk. Usually when we are waiting for food we are all doing our own zone and regroup, catch up time. Then we come back together for conversation over food. I would just not choose to assume someoneus doing it wrong cause their kid gets a ipad during wait time... Honestly, the parentis wrong if the kid misbehaves, and they are wrong of the kid is electronically entertained... We're working on a very narrow definition of 'right' there... as for proving guilt, I agree that it's situational. Neither Mich nor I ever used the phrase "it's wrong" or "it's right" to describe the situation of parents giving the kids these devices at a restaurant. You assumed we made those judgements. We did not. My comment also alluded to the fact that the devices are used throughout dinner, not just waiting for dinner to arrive. Different from how we were raised, yes. It certainly seems to keep them quiet and in their seats. Contributing much to their social skill set - probably not. It's not like they will be able to avoid interacting with business colleagues in the future by whipping out the iPad and watching Bugs Bunny until the appetizers arrive. Contributing much to family interaction skills? Dunno. Depends on whether or not they're also allowed to behave the same way at their home dinner table.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 24, 2013 14:14:20 GMT -5
Well, I have no problem with my kids using electronic devices until the food comes. We have lots of other times to talk. Usually when we are waiting for food we are all doing our own zone and regroup, catch up time. Then we come back together for conversation over food. I would just not choose to assume someoneus doing it wrong cause their kid gets a ipad during wait time... Honestly, the parentis wrong if the kid misbehaves, and they are wrong of the kid is electronically entertained... We're working on a very narrow definition of 'right' there... as for proving guilt, I agree that it's situational. Neither Mich nor I ever used the phrase "it's wrong" or "it's right" to describe the situation of parents giving the kids these devices at a restaurant. You assumed we made those judgements. We did not. My comment also alluded to the fact that the devices are used throughout dinner, not just waiting for dinner to arrive. Different from how we were raised, yes. It certainly seems to keep them quiet and in their seats. Contributing much to their social skill set - probably not. It's not like they will be able to avoid interacting with business colleagues in the future by whipping out the iPad and watching Bugs Bunny until the appetizers arrive. Contributing much to family interaction skills? Dunno. Depends on whether or not they're also allowed to behave the same way at their home dinner table. The problem is that they are not using the devices briefly. They're trying to text with one hand while eating with the other and ALL of them are doing it. There was a couple sitting across the aisle from us in one restaurant. It was apparently a married couple and I don't think that either of them looked up at the person that they were sitting with OR even looked at their food the entire meal. The only time they even talked was to talk to the waitress to tell them what they wanted to drink and eat. If a parent wants to give an electronic device to a kid to keep them entertained for a few minutes so that they can finish up their meal, that's one thing...I don't consider it much different than a coloring book and crayons that many restaurants provide. But IMO there comes a time where children should learn that eating a meal is a social activity and a skill that they should learn.
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nogooddeed
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Post by nogooddeed on Sept 24, 2013 14:19:38 GMT -5
Contributing much to family interaction skills? Dunno. Depends on whether or not they're also allowed to behave the same way at their home dinner table.
I grew up eating at a family dinner table almost every night. No TV allowed. No other electronic devices. We were expected to help serve the food and then talk with family members while eating. We either had to wait to leave the table until everyone was done or ask to be excused. Sometimes the answer was yes, sometimes no. Either way, we had to help clear the table and clean the kitchen. After that, there was no way any of my siblings or myself would expect to be able to leave the table at a restaurant. It just wasn't part of our family's experience.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Sept 24, 2013 14:25:45 GMT -5
Neither Mich nor I ever used the phrase "it's wrong" or "it's right" to describe the situation of parents giving the kids these devices at a restaurant. You assumed we made those judgements. We did not. My comment also alluded to the fact that the devices are used throughout dinner, not just waiting for dinner to arrive. Different from how we were raised, yes. It certainly seems to keep them quiet and in their seats. Contributing much to their social skill set - probably not. It's not like they will be able to avoid interacting with business colleagues in the future by whipping out the iPad and watching Bugs Bunny until the appetizers arrive. Contributing much to family interaction skills? Dunno. Depends on whether or not they're also allowed to behave the same way at their home dinner table. The problem is that they are not using the devices briefly. They're trying to text with one hand while eating with the other and ALL of them are doing it. There was a couple sitting across the aisle from us in one restaurant. It was apparently a married couple and I don't think that either of them looked up at the person that they were sitting with OR even looked at their food the entire meal. The only time they even talked was to talk to the waitress to tell them what they wanted to drink and eat. If a parent wants to give an electronic device to a kid to keep them entertained for a few minutes so that they can finish up their meal, that's one thing...I don't consider it much different than a coloring book and crayons that many restaurants provide. But IMO there comes a time where children should learn that eating a meal is a social activity and a skill that they should learn. Well said. And it's a skill that has to be taught early, starting at home. People wonder why kids misbehave in restaurants. I cannot help but wonder if it's because good behavior is not expected/practiced at home at the table. Why would a child do any differently outside the home? OK, there will be issues. There will be meltdowns. There will be tantrums, food fights and those irrational shrieks of "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I AM NOT EATING THAAAAAAT!!!!" even if you train your kids like you're running the animal sideshow at Ringling Brothers Circus. Threats, bribery, corporal punishment and anything else in the parental arsenal sometimes doesn't work. I'm thinking you start young, start simple and with really low expectations, and build up from there. As kids, we could not leave the kitchen table until we were excused, finished or not. We had to help clean up. Conversation did not mean shouting, sharing did not mean kicking each other under the table. My dad would have backhanded us into next week if we had done any of that.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Sept 24, 2013 14:35:33 GMT -5
Part of the reason we have trouble with DS sitting up in restaurants is because at home up until a few weeks ago, we still used our high chair at home and DS has been too big for the high chairs in restaurants for over a year. If DD wasn't ready to eat solids, DS would probably still be sitting in the high chair at home. We were preaching manners at home, but suddenly having freedom after being contained leads to a lot of corrections.
And as someone on the outside, you don't know if it is just a bad day or if it is bad parenting, but somehow the assumption is that it is always bad parenting.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 24, 2013 14:47:14 GMT -5
If the parent does not remove the child from the restaurant when they start disturbing others it is bad parenting. Not that hard to figure out. It is not repsponsible in any way to expect a room full of adults to be subject to your little joy's screaming fit.
You only have to do it once or twice (sit in the car with child until they calm down, then go home when spouse brings out leftovers) and the kid will get the message. At least mine did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 14:56:31 GMT -5
How I feel about children misbehaving in public depends on what the parents are doing at the time. If they're oblivious, sitting back enoying themselves while their child runs all over the place, I don't have much patience with that. If they're trying to deal with whatever's going on or sitting there trying to console a howling baby, I'm more tolerant even if the child isn't cooperating. I'm even sympathetic when a parent is dealing with a toddler's meltdown, even if "dealing with it" means ignoring a toddler having a full blown temper tantrum laying in the floor screaming at the grocery store. I don't think I could ignore my toddler's public temper tantrum, but maybe it works for some families, so ok.
A fussy, cranky small kid is one thing. It happens. A child that hasn't mastered using their indoor voice is ok, if their parent is trying to teach them to lower their voice. An unruly child running around and into people inside a store or restaurant while their parent pretends they don't see them, is NOT ok. It's annoying.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Sept 24, 2013 14:59:45 GMT -5
Part of the reason we have trouble with DS sitting up in restaurants is because at home up until a few weeks ago, we still used our high chair at home and DS has been too big for the high chairs in restaurants for over a year. If DD wasn't ready to eat solids, DS would probably still be sitting in the high chair at home. We were preaching manners at home, but suddenly having freedom after being contained leads to a lot of corrections. And as someone on the outside, you don't know if it is just a bad day or if it is bad parenting, but somehow the assumption is that it is always bad parenting. Nah. I usually assume the kid has horns and a tail somewhere. And when I mentioned this: "Threats, bribery, corporal punishment and anything else in the parental arsenal sometimes don't work" I did not intend it to be a mean or bad thing on the part of the parents. I think you have to use what works. Sometimes none of it does, as you pointed out, once the little rugrat realizes freedom has arrived at his/her little feet.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Sept 24, 2013 15:13:50 GMT -5
If the parent does not remove the child from the restaurant when they start disturbing others it is bad parenting. Not that hard to figure out. It is not repsponsible in any way to expect a room full of adults to be subject to your little joy's screaming fit. You only have to do it once or twice (sit in the car with child until they calm down, then go home when spouse brings out leftovers) and the kid will get the message. At least mine did. but then the parent doesn't get to enjoy the hot meal they have ordered and paid for, dontcha know? my parents had to do this to me exactly once to get the point across. it took my sis a couple tries, but she figured it out too. ETA: exactly what Pink says in the post after the one I've quoted here.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Sept 24, 2013 15:13:52 GMT -5
How I feel about children misbehaving in public depends on what the parents are doing at the time. If they're oblivious, sitting back enoying themselves while their child runs all over the place, I don't have much patience with that. If they're trying to deal with whatever's going on or sitting there trying to console a howling baby, I'm more tolerant even if the child isn't cooperating. I'm even sympathetic when a parent is dealing with a toddler's meltdown, even if "dealing with it" means ignoring a toddler having a full blown temper tantrum laying in the floor screaming at the grocery store. I don't think I could ignore my toddler's public temper tantrum, but maybe it works for some families, so ok. I stood on the side of an aisle in the grocery store once and let one of my kids cry and kick the floor. I apologized to people trying to get though the aisle and remember telling the kid that they needed to scoot over so people could pass. Eventually, he stopped. But everyone going past told me "it's ok" when I apologized. Embarrassing, yes. But everytime I'd tried to pick up Cabe, he'd kick or slap at me. I'm pretty sure it was Cabe, now that I'm thinking about it. He was probably 2.5-3 at the time. And the temper tantrum was because I was making him pick between the yellow bag of M&Ms and the blue one. I've hauled (literally, over my shoulder like a sack of potatoes) both kids out of stores for misbehaving - not at the same time obviously. I've also bribed them. And I've yelled at them. A few weeks ago Cabe took off running in the soda aisles and wouldn't come back. That was not a good shopping trip.
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