whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 24, 2013 9:34:29 GMT -5
So, I guess the question is...well....may be just my question..
How far in consequences would you go for your teen and his one (let's pretend it's only one) stupid mistake?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 24, 2013 9:35:18 GMT -5
My mom and dad were at Targetand some kid was screaming "F-YOU!" at the top of his lungs to his mother. You could hear him thru the entire store. We'd have been dead meat if we did that, but they said it was funny when it was someone else's problem. I was at the DMV and there was a teenager there who was studying while waiting to take the written test, and his Mom seemed perfectly pleasant, and she told him that he probably should have studied before now, and he told her to F-off (but actually said the word.) I was blown away. I mean - I use that word a lot, but I am pretty sure I won't let my teenager say it to me in a serious tone in public. And then he said something about how the test was flawed the last two times he took it and failed. I figured he was going to spend a good portion of his life in prison.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 24, 2013 9:35:39 GMT -5
So, I guess the question is...well....may be just my question.. How far in consequences would you go for your teen and his one (let's pretend it's only one) stupid mistake? Depends on how stupid the mistake was.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 9:37:57 GMT -5
As for younger children misbehaving in public, I wish there was a law that said families with young children must leave restaurants, malls, etc. by 8 p.m.
It is challenging enough for a young child to sit still while waiting for food, for parents to grocery shop, etc.
But to expect a young child to hold it together while doing those things at 10 p.m. is child abuse, IMHO.
Sure, we all had those rare occasions when we suddenly needed milk, diapers, or a meal after an unexpected schedule change. Those are understandable and we know to guide and help our child through that unusually late outing.
My goal is to rein in those folks who think that just because kids can sleep in in the morning that they can stay up until all hours.
Maybe some kids can, but I am willing to bet that most kids' sleep needs are driven by circadian rhythm than parents' selfish schedules.
Just my two cents. YMMV.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 24, 2013 9:38:38 GMT -5
So, I guess the question is...well....may be just my question.. How far in consequences would you go for your teen and his one (let's pretend it's only one) stupid mistake? Depends on how stupid the mistake was. Let's go with drinking and trashing someone else's house
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 9:39:38 GMT -5
So, I guess the question is...well....may be just my question.. How far in consequences would you go for your teen and his one (let's pretend it's only one) stupid mistake? DH and I chose to take a relatively hard line the first time in the hopes that there wouldn't be a second time. Time will tell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 9:45:38 GMT -5
If my kid was one of the party goers there would have been 5 kids that showed up to clean. Grounded for life springs to mind, but most likely grounded for the semester, no phone, no social media. And a case of something strong for Mom to get through it!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 24, 2013 9:50:14 GMT -5
I am a bit conflicted on the subject (and keep in mind, my oldest is only 5)
While it would make my heart hurt to allow one mistake to have VERY dire consequences, well, it does happen in life, doesn't it?
Would it be too cruel to learn that at 15-16? Bc their brains are not fully developed yet, can we expect them to see far ahead?
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 9:51:34 GMT -5
I don't have kids, so I tend to see children's behavior in extremes, I have to admit. I see kids out of control in certain places, like the grocery store, department store and other retail settings, possibly because there is so much stimulation, so much for them to look at and ask for and everything is attractive to them. I used to see it in restaurants, too, but because of mobile electronics, I've noticed a change. Parents hand the kids the iPad with a movie playing, or give them the iPhone loaded with games and apps, and the kids are plugged in and playing or watching while the parents eat. Sometimes, there's no interaction between parents and kids, or the kids themselves. Seems strange to me, but the kids sure are quiet. It would not have, and could not have happened that way when I was a kid. Obviously, the devices were not around back in the Stone Age , but also because we were expected to pay attention and be attentive. I was waiting in the car yesterday while YDS had a physical therapy appointment. There is a math enrichment program next door to the PT's office. A huge SUV parked beside me and the mother and her kids waited in the car for the math class to start. The windows of the SUV were down. I could hear everything (although I was trying desperately to finally read the Sunday paper.) She spent the 15 minutes or so constantly harping on one little boy. Just criticizing and threatening him over and over (for getting out of his car seat and going into the way back seat to kiss his older brother). When they finally emerged from the car, I expected the little one to have horns on his head and a long trident tail. Instead, he was about 3-4 years old and absolutely freaking adorable. The mother met up with some other moms and could be heard bragging about the older child and dissing the younger one for being a PITA. All the while, the younger one was exploring the lawn in front of the building as 3-4 year olds are wont to do and the mom would interrupt her bragging session with harsh instructions for the younger one. As the parent of 2 boys, I didn't see him doing anything wrong. I just saw him as a curious, happy kid who probably would have loved it if his mother joined him and pointed out the grasshopper on the lawn or the bird in the tree or the changing leaf colors. But, she couldn't be bothered to interact with him yesterday afternoon in that half hour in any kind of positive way. Too bad. I'd like to think she went home and played with him, but... My point is, kids aren't accessories. They need interaction, conversation, encouragement, wonder, to be engaged, etc. They aren't born knowing how to act in various situations. We, the parents, are supposed to teach them how to behave and we can do that in positive ways that are nurturing, not belittling, harsh, or demeaning. We only get 18 years or so to do all that. The web-surfing on your IPhone in the restaurant can wait. Again, JMHO. YMMV.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Sept 24, 2013 9:55:56 GMT -5
As for younger children misbehaving in public, I wish there was a law that said families with young children must leave restaurants, malls, etc. by 8 p.m. It is challenging enough for a young child to sit still while waiting for food, for parents to grocery shop, etc. But to expect a young child to hold it together while doing those things at 10 p.m. is child abuse, IMHO. Sure, we all had those rare occasions when we suddenly needed milk, diapers, or a meal after an unexpected schedule change. Those are understandable and we know to guide and help our child through that unusually late outing. My goal is to rein in those folks who think that just because kids can sleep in in the morning that they can stay up until all hours. Maybe some kids can, but I am willing to bet that most kids' sleep needs are driven by circadian rhythm than parents' selfish schedules. Just my two cents. YMMV. I do my best to put my kids (babies still really) in a situation where they will be "successful" - not overtired, not overly hungry, keep them in line, etc. But sometimes shit happens and frankly from the outside looking in, you (general) don't see what is going on. When DD was a newborn, DH had back surgery. I had to drag both kids out in public by myself way more than I expected and sometimes unexpectedly. Someone seeing my DD screaming and my DS misbehaving would have had no idea what was going on at home. They just saw that I was wrangling a screaming newborn and a misbehaving 3 year old wondering what I was doing bringing them out in public in the middle of winter. We took the kids camping this past weekend. We did the best we could with them - tried to plan it so DD would nap on the way up to the campground. Our best laid plans failed and she was an unhappy camper when we got there. I'm sure we woke up some neighboring campers that night with her screaming. I'm sure the next night when DS had nightmares and was screaming despite DH holding him, it disrupted people. Sometimes best laid plans fail.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 9:57:22 GMT -5
I am a bit conflicted on the subject (and keep in mind, my oldest is only 5) While it would make my heart hurt to allow one mistake to have VERY dire consequences, well, it does happen in life, doesn't it? Would it be too cruel to learn that at 15-16? Bc their brains are not fully developed yet, can we expect them to see far ahead? I am no expert and I am still learning the job as I go along. But, I guess I divide mistakes along the "did somebody die/get hurt vs. everyone is safe but that was hugely stupid" line. It's not perfect, and it is still a work in progress. Don't get me wrong -- trespassing, property damage, underage partying, etc. are all HUGE mistakes. But, no one died and no one got hurt. So, *I'd* save my most dire consequences for the most dire results. That doesn't mean my kids get off scot-free for stupid mistakes. But, I believe in consequences -- just a hierarchy of consequences, if that makes sense.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Sept 24, 2013 9:58:26 GMT -5
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 10:00:24 GMT -5
As for younger children misbehaving in public, I wish there was a law that said families with young children must leave restaurants, malls, etc. by 8 p.m. It is challenging enough for a young child to sit still while waiting for food, for parents to grocery shop, etc. But to expect a young child to hold it together while doing those things at 10 p.m. is child abuse, IMHO. Sure, we all had those rare occasions when we suddenly needed milk, diapers, or a meal after an unexpected schedule change. Those are understandable and we know to guide and help our child through that unusually late outing. My goal is to rein in those folks who think that just because kids can sleep in in the morning that they can stay up until all hours. Maybe some kids can, but I am willing to bet that most kids' sleep needs are driven by circadian rhythm than parents' selfish schedules. Just my two cents. YMMV. I do my best to put my kids (babies still really) in a situation where they will be "successful" - not overtired, not overly hungry, keep them in line, etc. But sometimes shit happens and frankly from the outside looking in, you (general) don't see what is going on. When DD was a newborn, DH had back surgery. I had to drag both kids out in public by myself way more than I expected and sometimes unexpectedly. Someone seeing my DD screaming and my DS misbehaving would have had no idea what was going on at home. They just saw that I was wrangling a screaming newborn and a misbehaving 3 year old wondering what I was doing bringing them out in public in the middle of winter. We took the kids camping this past weekend. We did the best we could with them - tried to plan it so DD would nap on the way up to the campground. Our best laid plans failed and she was an unhappy camper when we got there. I'm sure we woke up some neighboring campers that night with her screaming. I'm sure the next night when DS had nightmares and was screaming despite DH holding him, it disrupted people. Sometimes best laid plans fail. Muttley, I was clear as mud. I do absolutely understand that sometimes best laid plans fail or poop happens and a kids' usual schedule is thrown out the window. I was trying to aim my comments at those people who habitually take young kids out late at night. Not because there is a rare reason to need to do so, but because they are night owls so the kids are forced to be night owls. Is that clearer?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 10:02:14 GMT -5
I am a bit conflicted on the subject (and keep in mind, my oldest is only 5) While it would make my heart hurt to allow one mistake to have VERY dire consequences, well, it does happen in life, doesn't it? Would it be too cruel to learn that at 15-16? Bc their brains are not fully developed yet, can we expect them to see far ahead? I agree. It is hard. It is like the two generally good 16 year old who were drinking and driving when the driver crashes and kills the passenger, but the driver lives. What is the appropriate punishment for the driver? Juvenile detention, jail, prohibition? If jail, how long? Obviously one of the two 16 year olds life is changed forever in that it was taken away. Does it make sense to essentially take away the other's life (if it is juvie or jail time) for a stupid mistake? I don't know.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Sept 24, 2013 10:03:49 GMT -5
GRG - I think you were clear. I was just sort backing it up. I think... I think some people forget having little kids exactly what happens and just think damn kids and damn parents.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Sept 24, 2013 10:06:28 GMT -5
I don't have kids, so I tend to see children's behavior in extremes, I have to admit. I see kids out of control in certain places, like the grocery store, department store and other retail settings, possibly because there is so much stimulation, so much for them to look at and ask for and everything is attractive to them. I used to see it in restaurants, too, but because of mobile electronics, I've noticed a change. Parents hand the kids the iPad with a movie playing, or give them the iPhone loaded with games and apps, and the kids are plugged in and playing or watching while the parents eat. Sometimes, there's no interaction between parents and kids, or the kids themselves. Seems strange to me, but the kids sure are quiet. It would not have, and could not have happened that way when I was a kid. Obviously, the devices were not around back in the Stone Age , but also because we were expected to pay attention and be attentive. I was waiting in the car yesterday while YDS had a physical therapy appointment. There is a math enrichment program next door to the PT's office. A huge SUV parked beside me and the mother and her kids waited in the car for the math class to start. The windows of the SUV were down. I could hear everything (although I was trying desperately to finally read the Sunday paper.) She spent the 15 minutes or so constantly harping on one little boy. Just criticizing and threatening him over and over (for getting out of his car seat and going into the way back seat to kiss his older brother). When they finally emerged from the car, I expected the little one to have horns on his head and a long trident tail. Instead, he was about 3-4 years old and absolutely freaking adorable. The mother met up with some other moms and could be heard bragging about the older child and dissing the younger one for being a PITA. All the while, the younger one was exploring the lawn in front of the building as 3-4 year olds are wont to do and the mom would interrupt her bragging session with harsh instructions for the younger one. As the parent of 2 boys, I didn't see him doing anything wrong. I just saw him as a curious, happy kid who probably would have loved it if his mother joined him and pointed out the grasshopper on the lawn or the bird in the tree or the changing leaf colors. But, she couldn't be bothered to interact with him yesterday afternoon in that half hour in any kind of positive way. Too bad. I'd like to think she went home and played with him, but... My point is, kids aren't accessories. They need interaction, conversation, encouragement, wonder, to be engaged, etc. They aren't born knowing how to act in various situations. We, the parents, are supposed to teach them how to behave and we can do that in positive ways that are nurturing, not belittling, harsh, or demeaning. We only get 18 years or so to do all that. The web-surfing on your IPhone in the restaurant can wait. Again, JMHO. YMMV. Exactly. Kids get a lot of stimulation from the outside world, but they learn it first from home, and the people who raise them. If the interaction they hear is harsh and demeaning, it becomes all they expect, and if they hear that early, there's no reversing it later on. But even worse, sometimes - no interaction at all. I've seen parents just not pay attention, express little if any emotion, no hugs, no smiles - just a total lack of engagement. I don't think one is better than the other. I just wonder which does more damage - negative interaction or no interaction?
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 24, 2013 10:13:32 GMT -5
Oy. PB ate my latest post. Just wanted to add that many states have high school athletic governing bodies that have strict no tolerance rules when it comes to drug and alcohol use by high school athletes. It is possible that some of the 300 at the party are high school athletes and are facing game suspensions, loss of seasons, or loss of an entire year's worth of high school sports if any of the pics posted on social media show kids drinking and/or drugging. In our state, just being in the presence of kids drinking and drugging -- even if you are cold stone sober and never partake -- will get you the exact same consequences. I could see a few dreams of playing college sports dying because of this one party and its exposure on social media. But, at least around here, the rules are very clear and very well publicized. I can't speak for upstate New York, though. That is how it was where I grew up in Texas... if you got caught at any party involving drugs or alcohol, you could get kicked out of many of the school programs, including sports.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Sept 24, 2013 10:14:36 GMT -5
I am a bit conflicted on the subject (and keep in mind, my oldest is only 5) While it would make my heart hurt to allow one mistake to have VERY dire consequences, well, it does happen in life, doesn't it? Would it be too cruel to learn that at 15-16? Bc their brains are not fully developed yet, can we expect them to see far ahead? I agree. It is hard. It is like the two generally good 16 year old who were drinking and driving when the driver crashes and kills the passenger, but the driver lives. What is the appropriate punishment for the driver? Juvenile detention, jail, prohibition? If jail, how long? Obviously one of the two 16 year olds life is changed forever in that it was taken away. Does it make sense to essentially take away the other's life (if it is juvie or jail time) for a stupid mistake? I don't know. what if it was your kid that was killed... how would you feel then?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 10:16:37 GMT -5
I agree. It is hard. It is like the two generally good 16 year old who were drinking and driving when the driver crashes and kills the passenger, but the driver lives. What is the appropriate punishment for the driver? Juvenile detention, jail, prohibition? If jail, how long? Obviously one of the two 16 year olds life is changed forever in that it was taken away. Does it make sense to essentially take away the other's life (if it is juvie or jail time) for a stupid mistake? I don't know. what if it was your kid that was killed... how would you feel then? I don't know. I do know that there have been cases like that where the parents of the deceased kid didn't want to have two lived ruined. The kids were friends, the parents were friends and the parents pleaded with the court to keep the kid out of jail.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 10:18:58 GMT -5
I'm hesitant to tell this story on YM, but here goes anyway.
I found a wallet in my son's backpack one day. I don't remember why I was going through is backpack that particular day but anyway, there was a wallet in it that wasn't my son's. My son told me some stupid story about why the wallet was in his backpack, like I was a damn fool. There was an ID in the wallet, but I didn't know the kid. I asked DD if she knew him, she said he played football at their school. I made my son get in the car with me, I drove up to football practice and asked for the coach and told him my son needed to talk to one of his players and why. He got the player and I made my son do the talking and apologizing. The wallet had fallen out of the boy's pocket when they were in the auditorium earlier that day. My son was sitting behind him, saw it and kept it instead of telling him he'd dropped it.
I asked him how much money was in his wallet and he said his Mom had given him $200 that morning to buy some shoes after his practice. There was $140 I think in it when we returned it. My son refused to tell me where the rest of the money was, insisting he didn't take any of it. Of course I didn't believe him. I went to the ATM and brought back enough to make the whole $200 and my son had to work for me afterwards (a lot more than $60 worth of work) to "pay" me back.
The other boy was a nice kid. He told my son that as far as he was concerned, it was over with, he wasn't going to hold it against him, he'd still speak to him when he saw him and he wasn't going to tell anybody what had happened. I apologized to him also, since it was my kid that was the thief, and I apologized to the coach for interrupting his practice. I told my son he was very lucky the kid was so nice. If nothing else, he was a big kid and his buddies were football players too.
I was beyond furious and I got even madder with every lie my son told me that day. When the furor died down, I was very sad that my kid would do something like that. I detest thieves and I'm not covering for one, even if it's my own child. I suppose that since I told the coach what had happened, the school could've ended up taking action since it happened on their property. If they had, I would've been upset (again) with my son, not the school.
I watched my younger brother get away with stuff with my Mom as a teenager. That's why I had the rule with my children that you don't "find" anything and bring it into my house. If I or our family didn't buy it, they couldn't have it, plain and simple. So there was no confusion about how they got something. Watching my brother grow up was also why I believe that when people get caught doing "little" things but there are no consequences, they tend to escalate to doing bigger things.
So yes, if my child had participated in what happened in the OP, helping to clean up the mess would've been the least they had to do.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 24, 2013 10:19:55 GMT -5
So, I guess the question is...well....may be just my question.. How far in consequences would you go for your teen and his one (let's pretend it's only one) stupid mistake? Think is this wasn't one stupid mistake. It was a series of colossal mistakes. 1. Go to a party more likely than not without parent's permission 2. Observe underage drinking at said party, but stay anyway 3. Participate in underage drinking 4. Allow pictures to be taken of you drinking (while underage) 5. Post pictures online of you drinking while underage 6. Observe someone commiting vandalism on property 7. Stay and possibly participate in commission of said crime upon property 8. Take pictures... (repeate several times) You get the idea, add to it the fact that there was destruction of property, including pissing on the carpet, breaking windows, stealing personal property etc. it's not one lapse in judgement, but several. Also, this was not a "harmless pank" or a stupid mistake, but willful and wonton destruction of property.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Sept 24, 2013 10:21:49 GMT -5
The rule at our school district is that if you get caught violating the code of conduct that you agree to for sports you have to sit out an entire season of your sport. They've gotten smart because some baseball players would sign up for basketball so that would be the season they had to sit out. That way they were good to play come baseball season. Nipped that in the bud and the season you sit out has to be for a sport you have pervious played at the high school level.
My co-worker's daughter got a DUI the summer before her senior year. Her folks were not amused. She only played softball. So yup- even though it was 9 months after her DUI she had to sit out her senior year of softball.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 24, 2013 10:25:28 GMT -5
I like GRG's approach.
Without getting into too many specifics, I've seen firsthand how shielding your teenager from the consequences of their more minor stupid decisions can lead to some really dangerous ones. If a kid knows that Mom and Dad are going to go to the high school and yell at the principal for the nerve of drug-testing their little angel, rather than yell at their kid for flunking a drug test and being kicked off the football team, what's to stop the kid from doing something even more stupid the next time?
Letting your kid fall on their face and suffer severe consequences for a thoughtless action has to be one of the hardest things to do. My mom's favorite phrase during my brother's teen years was "He's a good kid." I love my brother and he IS, at heart, a kind and good person. But that didn't make his stupid decisions any less stupid or dangerous. My cousin who killed himself in a drunken driving accident at age 24 was also a good person, and I miss him every day. But he did some incredibly stupid things after getting away with some more minor stupid things as a teen, and eventually paid the ultimate price.
I'd rather have my kid alive - and pissed at me for "ruining her life" - than know that she died thinking I was a cool Mom for always bailing her out.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Sept 24, 2013 10:26:30 GMT -5
I am a bit conflicted on the subject (and keep in mind, my oldest is only 5) While it would make my heart hurt to allow one mistake to have VERY dire consequences, well, it does happen in life, doesn't it? Would it be too cruel to learn that at 15-16? Bc their brains are not fully developed yet, can we expect them to see far ahead? I agree. It is hard. It is like the two generally good 16 year old who were drinking and driving when the driver crashes and kills the passenger, but the driver lives. What is the appropriate punishment for the driver? Juvenile detention, jail, prohibition? If jail, how long? Obviously one of the two 16 year olds life is changed forever in that it was taken away. Does it make sense to essentially take away the other's life (if it is juvie or jail time) for a stupid mistake? I don't know. Unfortunately in life there are some things that have really bad consequences and just can't be undone. I think a big part of our job as parents isn't to try to protect them after something bad happens, but to try to keep something really, really bad from happening. And I think we do that by punishing the sort of bad stuff and hoping they learn from their mistakes. I think incidents like what happened at Holloways house are a good time to let your kids feel the full consequences of their actions. They seriously screwed up, but no one died, and no one's life will be ruined. At worst they can't get straight into their college of choice - a year or two at a CC won't ruin their life and may keep them from making bigger, dumber mistakes later on. Protecting them from something like this sends the impression that they didn't screw up big time and won't teach them a lesson, IMO. How are they going to behave in college then? Are they really going to skip the next party since they didn't get in trouble for this one? Seriously, for what happened, they are in the best case scenario. A party full of drugs/alcohol/300 under age teens could have easily ended up with someone ODing on something or getting hurt/killed doing something stupid. They should be counting their blessings nothing truly bad happened, like someone getting killed when driving drunk home. Teach them a lesson on this so hopefully they won't repeat it risking much worse consequences.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 24, 2013 10:26:54 GMT -5
Pink, how did you know your son was lying?
That's another thing I worry about - what if my kid is NOT lying and I don't believe him and he looses trusts in me?
Oh lordy lordy
Archie - there was a movie on Lifetime awhile ago - a teen kills another teen while driving drunk. Parents of the killed kid didn't want the other kid going to jail - they wanted him to send them a check for $1 every week or month (I can't remember) for x number of years. They just wanted him to remember. It was torturous for him. Can't remember how movie ends, but.....that was one way to punish the drunk driver
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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"How you win matters." Ender, Ender's Game
Joined: Jan 2, 2011 13:33:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,291
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 10:28:35 GMT -5
I am a bit conflicted on the subject (and keep in mind, my oldest is only 5) While it would make my heart hurt to allow one mistake to have VERY dire consequences, well, it does happen in life, doesn't it? Would it be too cruel to learn that at 15-16? Bc their brains are not fully developed yet, can we expect them to see far ahead? I agree. It is hard. It is like the two generally good 16 year old who were drinking and driving when the driver crashes and kills the passenger, but the driver lives. What is the appropriate punishment for the driver? Juvenile detention, jail, prohibition? If jail, how long? Obviously one of the two 16 year olds life is changed forever in that it was taken away. Does it make sense to essentially take away the other's life (if it is juvie or jail time) for a stupid mistake? I don't know. (Anyone else having trouble with PB today? Arggh) Here is another reconstituted post: Yup. Archie brings up one of those really hard cases. I think you have to look at these situations on a case by case basis. If the surviving driver is mature enough to grasp the loss of the other teen and the loss of that teen's dreams and promise, then what will jail time add to that? Isn't living the rest of one's life with the knowledge that you took a life in stupidity sentence enough? But, then, if the surviving driver can't grasp the enormity of the death and the enormity of the loss, will jail time bring that realization? There is no black and white rule here. There can't be. I don't know the answer.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 6:26:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 10:29:10 GMT -5
Pink, how did you know your son was lying? That's another thing I worry about - what if my kid is NOT lying and I don't believe him and he looses trusts in me? Oh lordy lordy Archie - there was a movie on Lifetime awhile ago - a teen kills another teen while driving drunk. Parents of the killed kid didn't want the other kid going to jail - they wanted him to send them a check for $1 every week or month (I can't remember) for x number of years. They just wanted him to remember. It was torturous for him. Can't remember how movie ends, but.....that was one way to punish the drunk driver Yeah. It is not easy. You hate to see a person's life irrevocably changed forever because of a stupid teenage mistake.
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sheilaincali
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 17:55:24 GMT -5
Posts: 4,131
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Post by sheilaincali on Sept 24, 2013 10:31:08 GMT -5
what if it was your kid that was killed... how would you feel then? I don't know. I do know that there have been cases like that where the parents of the deceased kid didn't want to have two lived ruined. The kids were friends, the parents were friends and the parents pleaded with the court to keep the kid out of jail. When I was in high school this happened. I didn't know the boy that died very well as he went to the other school in our town but the driver was a kid I had known since elementary school. No alcohol or drugs involved. We have a road down by the river where if you are driving fast enough you catch air going over the bumps and hills. They were joyriding one night and attempted to catch air. J lost control of the car and it slammed roof first (so the front end was pointed down) into a very large tree. The boy in the passenger seat was killed, the driver and three other passengers received some pretty serious injuries. The two boys were best friends, had done sports and things together for years leading up to this. The boy that died was also an only child. This was 20 years ago- the charged the boy with something (I can't remember what) mostly so that his parents insurance would have to pay for the funeral expenses and that sort of thing. The other boy's parents never blamed the driver but J blamed himself. I remember going back to school that fall (happened over summer break) and he was a shell of his former self. There was talk of sending him to juvie and things along those lines but the parents of the boy who had died were very against any punishment for J. They felt that by losing his best friend that he had been punished more than enough.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
Senior Associate
"How you win matters." Ender, Ender's Game
Joined: Jan 2, 2011 13:33:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,291
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 10:40:51 GMT -5
I agree. It is hard. It is like the two generally good 16 year old who were drinking and driving when the driver crashes and kills the passenger, but the driver lives. What is the appropriate punishment for the driver? Juvenile detention, jail, prohibition? If jail, how long? Obviously one of the two 16 year olds life is changed forever in that it was taken away. Does it make sense to essentially take away the other's life (if it is juvie or jail time) for a stupid mistake? I don't know. what if it was your kid that was killed... how would you feel then? I am being absolutely truthful when I say that it is my first instinct to keep my kids safe from ALL harm. Seriously. Look up "mother bear" and *my* picture is there. I worry and fret over stuff. I attribute my sharply honed protective instincts to the fact that both kids have life-threatening, anaphylactic food allergies and so every single day I carry the worry that something I feed them will kill them. That anxiety necessarily spills over into all areas of life -- especially in the wee hours of the morning when I cannot sleep. However, intellectually I know that I cannot keep my kids safe from everything. I want to, God knows himself how much I want to. But, I can't -- not physically, not logistically, not even honestly. And, I would do a huge disservice if I tried. They'd never live life, and as much as I want to keep my kids in a protective bubble, I know above all else that they are entitled (yes, entitled) to go off and live their own life. So, I've learned to compartmentalize my anxiety and to channel it toward teaching them to move safely in the world. I've taught them to read ingredient labels, to ask about how foods are prepared, to choose careful peer drivers, the dangers of alcohol and drugs, the signs of abusive relationships, to text me if the EVER need a ride home with no questions asked, etc. All I, or any parent, can ever do is teach our children to take care of themselves and then set them free to practice what we preached. Some will remember the lessons and some won't. I put driving drunk or riding with drunk drivers om one of those ultimate "I hope you remember this lesson in particular" categories. If one of my kids fails that test, I'd like to think I could be gracious and forgiving, but the truth is, I really don't know if I could.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
Senior Associate
"How you win matters." Ender, Ender's Game
Joined: Jan 2, 2011 13:33:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,291
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 24, 2013 10:49:54 GMT -5
I was waiting in the car yesterday while YDS had a physical therapy appointment. There is a math enrichment program next door to the PT's office. A huge SUV parked beside me and the mother and her kids waited in the car for the math class to start. The windows of the SUV were down. I could hear everything (although I was trying desperately to finally read the Sunday paper.) She spent the 15 minutes or so constantly harping on one little boy. Just criticizing and threatening him over and over (for getting out of his car seat and going into the way back seat to kiss his older brother). When they finally emerged from the car, I expected the little one to have horns on his head and a long trident tail. Instead, he was about 3-4 years old and absolutely freaking adorable. The mother met up with some other moms and could be heard bragging about the older child and dissing the younger one for being a PITA. All the while, the younger one was exploring the lawn in front of the building as 3-4 year olds are wont to do and the mom would interrupt her bragging session with harsh instructions for the younger one. As the parent of 2 boys, I didn't see him doing anything wrong. I just saw him as a curious, happy kid who probably would have loved it if his mother joined him and pointed out the grasshopper on the lawn or the bird in the tree or the changing leaf colors. But, she couldn't be bothered to interact with him yesterday afternoon in that half hour in any kind of positive way. Too bad. I'd like to think she went home and played with him, but... My point is, kids aren't accessories. They need interaction, conversation, encouragement, wonder, to be engaged, etc. They aren't born knowing how to act in various situations. We, the parents, are supposed to teach them how to behave and we can do that in positive ways that are nurturing, not belittling, harsh, or demeaning. We only get 18 years or so to do all that. The web-surfing on your IPhone in the restaurant can wait. Again, JMHO. YMMV. Exactly. Kids get a lot of stimulation from the outside world, but they learn it first from home, and the people who raise them. If the interaction they hear is harsh and demeaning, it becomes all they expect, and if they hear that early, there's no reversing it later on. But even worse, sometimes - no interaction at all. I've seen parents just not pay attention, express little if any emotion, no hugs, no smiles - just a total lack of engagement. I don't think one is better than the other. I just wonder which does more damage - negative interaction or no interaction? I think we'll get our answer in about 5-10 years when the generation of kids who grew up surrounded by screens of all kinds start to make their way in the world. We already have adults who never got any interaction from their parents growing up walking among us. The hyper-screened kids will either make their presence known in obvious ways or blend in with the masses. My bet is that the hyper-screened kids are going to grow into somewhat dysfunctional adults with weak social skills and the attention spans of a gnat. But, I am an unabashed Luddite so take anything I say in that regard with a huge grain of salt.
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