Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 16, 2013 23:12:36 GMT -5
Unless you've been living under a rock for the past three years, you're no doubt aware of the controversial push to require government-issued photo ID at US election polls. The two predominant positions are: - Photo ID is a prudent measure needed to prevent voter fraud, an especially important protection given the narrow margins in recent US federal elections.
- There have been very few proven documented cases of voter fraud in US federal elections, and requiring photo ID will disenfranchise a significant demographic of their right to vote.
I'm going to add a third position:
3. Who on Earth doesn't have government-issued photo ID, and do you really want them to vote?
No photo ID means you have no driver's license, no passport, no US military ID card, no state identification card, no concealed carry license, no citizenship certificate, no election identification certificate. Nothing.
You don't drive. You don't travel. You don't deposit cheques at banks. You don't purchase alcohol or cigarettes. Jim Mayotte of the Concord monitor adds "...taking the ACT/SAT exams for college; cashing a check; buying a gun; applying for a job; flying; getting a passport; getting married; seeing a doctor (The Laconia Clinic scans a photo ID); selling real estate; signing up for reward cards, e.g., Shaw's; redeeming a large, winning lottery ticket; buying liquor at a restaurant (Meadowbrook requests a photo ID before serving alcohol); taking professional exams like CPA, law, etc.; buying a car; getting a hunting or fishing license; applying for food stamps or housing; applying for Social Security and Medicare".
You basically don't do anything. And not only that, you've not done anything for the past five years. You're mobile enough to make it to the polling station, but you can't even be bothered to pick up a state photo ID card? Bull honky.
At what point did people get it into their heads that the deadest of the dead weight citizens should be the demographic that determines the outcome of US federal elections? Isn't some form of photo ID a bare minimum standard of competency to elect a nation's leaders?
Thoughts?
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Sept 16, 2013 23:17:58 GMT -5
What I would consider my citizenship certificate would be my birth certificate. It does not have my picture taken at any age. My election id is just a card with my name and address, again no picture. I mailed in my voter registration application and they returned this card.
Another thing to consider, Oregon and perhaps Washington, are vote by mail only. We do not have polling places.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 16, 2013 23:21:32 GMT -5
For Tennessee drivers over the age of 60, pictures on your state issued driver's license are optional.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 16, 2013 23:25:02 GMT -5
I didn't know it had gone through, but Texas already requires photo ID. And other states (Mr. Mayotte mentions in his article) are considering it.
I have no problem with mail-in votes since the identity confirmation is 'built in' with the receipt of the cards, and it takes even a certain effort to fill out and mail the card. Plus, not everyone can realistically make it to the polls.
So un-optional it, with a 5-year grandfather clause for seniors with no-photo licenses. Problem solved.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 16, 2013 23:26:42 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 16, 2013 23:28:30 GMT -5
Thanks Billis.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 16, 2013 23:35:13 GMT -5
I didn't know it had gone through, but Texas already requires photo ID. And other states (Mr. Mayotte mentions in his article) are considering it. I have no problem with mail-in votes since the identity confirmation is 'built in' with the receipt of the cards, and it takes even a certain effort to fill out and mail the card. Plus, not everyone can realistically make it to the polls. So un-optional it, with a 5-year grandfather clause for seniors with no-photo licenses. Problem solved. There ìs no problem to solve. Just others creating them .
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 16, 2013 23:36:15 GMT -5
Through Aug. 30, 2013:
A driver's license from NH or any other state, regardless of expiration date A photo ID card issued by the NH director of motor vehicles A voter ID card issued under R.S. 260:21 A U.S. armed services photo ID card A U.S. passport, regardless of expiration date A valid student ID card
Any other valid photo ID issued by federal, state, county or municipal government
Any other photo ID that is determined to be legitimate by the supervisors of the checklist, the moderator, or the town or city clerk, provided that if any person authorized to challenge a voter under RSA 659:27 objects to the use of such photo identification, the voter shall be required to execute a qualified voter affidavit as if no identification was presented.
Beginning Sept. 1, 2013, the following IDs will be accepted if the name on the ID is substantially similar to that on the voter registration record and the expiration date does not exceed five years:
A driver's license from any state A non-driver ID issued by the motor vehicle agency of any state A U.S. armed services ID card A U.S. passport www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx#fl Above is the type of thing that I start to have a problem with. The old law required that you prove who you are. The new law requires that you have a narrow specific form of ID.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 0:06:12 GMT -5
In my view, qualifying ID has to have both of two elements: 1) some strong guarantee of a name-identity linkage, and 2) some strong guarantee of recency.
No. 1) requires that a polling station can verify that "John Doe at 123 Sycamore Lane" is the man standing in front of them simply by looking at the ID over a few seconds. This means there can be no question as to whether his photo ID card was issued by an organization that issues photo ID responsibly. It's the state. It's trusted. John is good to go.
No. 2) requires that the ID not be "highly" expired. And the reason for 2) is that passports, licenses, etc. get thrown out, not always properly, and it probably wouldn't be a difficult matter to find one that somebody had just chucked in the trash. Recency means that a man who wants to commit fraud would have to make such a search every few years in order to keep it up.
If a state disqualifies ID that meets both of these conditions, I don't necessarily oppose the tighter rules, but I don't consider them necessary either.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 0:09:08 GMT -5
What you're describing then is a defective bureaucracy. You're going to have to bite the bullet and fix it sometime. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/undecided.png)
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Sept 17, 2013 5:10:14 GMT -5
MANY of the elderly do NOT have photo or ANY other type of govt ID. Lets take my late father as an example:
He passed away at 94 2/3 in Feb 2013 stopped traveling nearly 20 years before=no passport gave up driving at 88 so DL prob expired by 90
It is possible to get a state photo ID CHEAP BUT requires a trip/wait to/at DMV & he was wheelchair bound.
This would certainly disenfranchise many elderly and let us now speak of the young. In IL you cannot get a DL until 18 so some may not get until a bit older, maybe 19 or 20. This would also disenfranchise them. I have heard that school pix IDs (high school or college) are NOT acceptable in most of these places.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 5:32:24 GMT -5
States requiring IDs ate offering free picture IDs suitable only for voting. Problem solved.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 5:35:02 GMT -5
My mother, at 92, has no photo ID with an expiry date of 2008 or less (expired more than 10 years ago). She's crippled and blind, but in full possession of her faculties and suffering from chronic heart disease. So, she should be unable to vote?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Sept 17, 2013 6:10:34 GMT -5
Pat I wonder if Indiana has adopted the new federal regulations early? They don't go into effect until 2017 but some states have adopted them already. Basically you need a certified birth certificate and social security card or your passport. And then you also need something to prove your residence is where you say. I know mine would have taken the bill of sale where you bought your house.
If you've been married and changed your name, you need the paper trail that goes along with that.
We only used to need all that stuff the first time you got a license or when you changed your name. At renewal, you only needed to prove residence. Now we have to bring it all every time. The last time I did it, I had a whole folder full of paperwork.
I suppose some people have no need for an id? The places they visit and conduct business with must do things very differently than they do around here. I need an id to enter the grounds of my office building and then the office itself. My doctor's offices require id. Certain prescriptions require an id. And on and on it goes. I could not go about my day to day life with no id.
I bought something at Old Navy Saturday and if you are using a credit card you must present an id even if the card is signed. Now sure this violates the card agreement but if you raise a fuss I'm sure you will be leaving sans your merchandise. You might get them in trouble with Visa/MasterCard/American Express but you won't be leaving with what you wanted to buy if you lack an id.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Sept 17, 2013 8:00:10 GMT -5
Probably the same people with out ego and super-ego.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Sept 17, 2013 8:14:43 GMT -5
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Sept 17, 2013 8:22:56 GMT -5
People who have been in jail or prison may not have ID's. Some jurisdictions keep personal property for as little as 10 days. If you don't have someone to pick it up for you, it is destroyed or discarded. You may be innocent or not have had a trial -- doesn't matter to the authorities.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 17, 2013 8:36:23 GMT -5
I don't think this is a predominate position. I think it is the documented cases of voter fraud rarely involve individuals so photo IDs are going to have a miniscule effect at best on voter fraud while likely having a far bigger impact on disenfranchising voters.
I support efforts to confirm all voters are US citizens, but I don't support the photo ID effort as it seems like throwing money at a mostly non-existent problem. I hate wasting money just so people can pretend they did something which is why I also did not support the efforts at gun control following Sandy Hook. Nothing they would come up with would actually address the issue, which is how I feel about voter photo ID. If you really want to address voter fraud, then look into actual voter fraud with machines and mail in ballots and find ways to decrease that. Don't spend tons of money and effort on fixing what might be .1% or .001% of the issue and pretend you are fixing voter fraud.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Sept 17, 2013 8:49:01 GMT -5
My mother, at 92, has no photo ID with an expiry date of 2008 or less (expired more than 10 years ago). She's crippled and blind, but in full possession of her faculties and suffering from chronic heart disease. So, she should be unable to vote? No, she just needs to get an ID... I don't accept "limited mobility" as an excuse, either. I see these "limited mobility" people carting around Walgreens, the grocery store, the mall, buffet restaurants, and the casinos...if they can make it to these places, then they can certainly make it someplace to get an ID.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 8:54:28 GMT -5
She cannot get an ID, and don't you dare tell me all you know about "limited mobility" until you've dealt with it personally! Mother can't get to any of the places you mention. Mother doesn't leave the house. Even her doctor sees her here at home, jkapp. When you know what you're talking about, please feel free to spout off!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 8:59:33 GMT -5
LOL jkapp! If "limited ability" at its very worst for people with limited abilities meant "people carting around Walgreens, the grocery store, the mall, buffet restaurants, and the casinos..", their lives would be so much better than it is for many with limitied abilities.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Sept 17, 2013 9:04:50 GMT -5
My mother gave up driving due to eyesight problems. She got a state issued photo ID. Guess this isn't an option in all states? Wasn't a big thing but then she knew she would need it for identification. So she got it!!!
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Sept 17, 2013 9:05:37 GMT -5
She cannot get an ID, and don't you dare tell me all you know about "limited mobility" until you've dealt with it personally! Mother can't get to any of the places you mention. Mother doesn't leave the house. Even her doctor sees her here at home, jkapp. When you know what you're talking about, please feel free to spout off! If I was in such a poor health position where I couldn't even leave the house, then I don't see myself giving a shit who the president is, or any other douchebag politician for that matter...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 9:08:57 GMT -5
A person can get a state-issued photo ID if that person can get to the DMV in their respective state, NoName. If the person can't get out of the house because of infirmities, including but not limited to blindness, that person cannot get said photo ID. These are real situations. They aren't imaginary, and they aren't fakers. There are such people. I know. I care for one of them, and have cared for others over the years. It's real easy to point the finger and say what others should do. What isn't quite that easy is knowing what those who are truly and deeply disabled CAN do. Mother voted by mail in the last election. She was so thrilled she could vote as she had thought she'd be unable to do so.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 9:10:11 GMT -5
She cannot get an ID, and don't you dare tell me all you know about "limited mobility" until you've dealt with it personally! Mother can't get to any of the places you mention. Mother doesn't leave the house. Even her doctor sees her here at home, jkapp. When you know what you're talking about, please feel free to spout off! If I was in such a poor health position where I couldn't even leave the house, then I don't see myself giving a shit who the president is, or any other douchebag politician for that matter... Then, you don't know your arse from third base when it comes to the older generation, jkapp. It mattered a great deal to mother to be able to vote.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Sept 17, 2013 9:10:31 GMT -5
I believe that voter fraud should be prevented through the use of ID's. Perhaps an exception can be made for those who vote by absentee ballot, those who are home bound, or who live in nursing / care homes.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 9:13:39 GMT -5
I believe that voter fraud should be prevented through the use of ID's. Perhaps an exception can be made for those who vote by absentee ballot, those who are home bound, or who live in nursing / care homes. I have no objection to the requirement of photo ID to vote for those who are able to attain said ID. I have a very strong objection to disenfranchising those who, through no fault of their own, are unable to obtain a photo ID.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Sept 17, 2013 9:16:16 GMT -5
People who are blind or disabled can get a photo ID at the DMV. They may need someone to bring them but they can get an ID. It may even be free depending on the state rules.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 9:16:30 GMT -5
Can anyone provide the statistics for voter fraud say for the 2012 presidentisl election? I am curious what percentage of votes csst were confirmed to be fraudulent.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Sept 17, 2013 9:17:44 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from MM. My mother couldn't drive so I took day off from work and traveled 3 hrs to another state to take her so I guess you could say she was able to get to ID center. I will admit that I got lost taking her there though ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/faint.gif)
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