What Kind of People Don't Have ID?

[billisonboard]

Sept 17, 2013 9:10:31 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

I believe that voter fraud should be prevented through the use of ID's.  Perhaps an exception can be made for those who vote by absentee ballot, those who are home bound, or who live in nursing / care homes.

Is that an exception for ID or fraud?

[mmhmm]

Sept 17, 2013 9:16:16 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

People who are blind or disabled can get a photo ID at the DMV.  They may need someone to bring them but they can get an ID.  It may even be free depending on the state rules.

As I explained to jkapp, Peace, not everyone can get to the DMV, nor is everyone able to go there, wait their turn, get their picture taken, and wait for their ID.  If they just need someone to "bring them", who might that be for an elderly person who lives in a rural area and has nobody?  Hmmm?  I meant what I said.  It's real easy to sit and point fingers when you're not in the situation yourself.

[mmhmm]

Sept 17, 2013 9:17:44 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

I understand where you are coming from MM. My mother couldn't drive so I took day off from work and traveled 3 hrs to another state to take her so I guess you could say she was able to get to ID center. I will admit that I got lost taking her there though

Transporting my mother outside our home is extremely dangerous, NoName.  Her balance is almost nonexistent.  Her cardiac condition presents a danger.  She's very old, and weak. That's why her doctor comes to our home.  You see, he realized how risky it was for her to come to his office.  If she needs medical care I can't deliver here, I'd call 911 to transport.  That's how bad it is.  I'd take the woman across the country if she could travel.  She's my mother.

Until you've walked in the moccasins, you don't know where the trail leads, believe me.

[Peace77]

Sept 17, 2013 9:19:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:10:31 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

I believe that voter fraud should be prevented through the use of ID's.  Perhaps an exception can be made for those who vote by absentee ballot, those who are home bound, or who live in nursing / care homes.

Is that an exception for ID or fraud?

An exception to show ID.  How does a person show an ID if an absentee ballot is being mailed to their home?  Absentee ballots are for those who are unable to visit polling places.  Some are homebound, some are serving in the military in other countries, some are business people out of the country and some work long shifts.

[billisonboard]

Sept 17, 2013 9:31:28 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:19:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Is that an exception for ID or fraud?

An exception to show ID.  How does a person show an ID if an absentee ballot is being mailed to their home?  Absentee ballots are for those who are unable to visit polling places.  Some are homebound, some are serving in the military in other countries, some are business people out of the country and some work long shifts.

Washington state conducts all voting by mail.

[Peace77]

Sept 17, 2013 9:19:58 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:16:16 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

People who are blind or disabled can get a photo ID at the DMV.  They may need someone to bring them but they can get an ID.  It may even be free depending on the state rules.

As I explained to jkapp, Peace, not everyone can get to the DMV, nor is everyone able to go there, wait their turn, get their picture taken, and wait for their ID.  If they just need someone to "bring them", who might that be for an elderly person who lives in a rural area and has nobody?  Hmmm?  I meant what I said.  It's real easy to sit and point fingers when you're not in the situation yourself.

I was not commenting further on your situation.  I was making a general statement that people who are blind can get an ID. 


I already said in post #26,  "Perhaps an exception can be made for those who vote by absentee ballot, those who are home bound, or who live in nursing / care homes."

Clearly, your mother would fall into the category of homebound.

[Value Buy]

Sept 17, 2013 9:16:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Can anyone provide the statistics for voter fraud say for the 2012 presidentisl election?  I am curious what percentage of votes csst were confirmed to be fraudulent.

And if they voted straight party ticket, either Democrat or Republican

[Tennesseer]

Sept 17, 2013 9:47:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:16:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Can anyone provide the statistics for voter fraud say for the 2012 presidentisl election?  I am curious what percentage of votes csst were confirmed to be fraudulent.

And if they voted straight party ticket, either Democrat or Republican

I don't.  But I ìmagine you do.  

[Value Buy]

Sept 17, 2013 9:52:54 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:47:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

And if they voted straight party ticket, either Democrat or Republican

I don't.  But I ìmagine you do.  

No, I do not.
And you were the one that brought up the voter fraud statistics question, not me.
I would think most voter fraud might include straight party ticket voting in many areas (urban as well as suburban/farm), rather than just voting for one individual.
Unless some think tank (not politically connected) dissected some entire polling data from large areas across the country, the amount of fraud will never be determined, imo.

My statement was not being snarkey.
At least this time

[bean29]

Sept 17, 2013 8:54:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

She cannot get an ID, and don't you dare tell me all you know about "limited mobility" until you've dealt with it personally!  Mother can't get to any of the places you mention.  Mother doesn't leave the house.  Even her doctor sees her here at home, jkapp.  When you know what you're talking about, please feel free to spout off!

I agree with mmhmm.  My Dad is wheelchair bound.  He has a Hoveround.  It has a joystick controller.  He has so little movement left in his hand he can barely control the chair.  You can flip the controls back and control the chair from behind but my Mom has a very hard time steering it in this position.

The hoveound can not fit in the car.  They rely on the county Transit Plus Busses if they need to go anywhere.  Mom says the Max Dad can stay upright in the Wheelchair is about 3 hours.  The Transit Plus is a shared ride with other users and you don't go directly from Point A to Point B.  Last time I renewed my DL I waited at least 2 hours.  I was nervous about being away from my job even though my employer is not nit picky about this stuff.  My last job you could not take a long lunch for any reason and my Boss would shorten our lunches if we were busy. 

If my Dad has to go somewhere in the car, they use a transit wheelchair but it takes 2 Men to get him from the wheelchair to the car and back again.  To get in the wheelchair it would take a Hoyer Lift or My Mom has a built in lift at the house. Even getting in an out of bed requires help from the lift.  If the lift wasn't there it would take at least 2 strong people.  Dad has not driven in years, he votes by Mail.  I think he still has current ID, but I never asked Mom about it.

[bean29]

Sept 17, 2013 9:05:37 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Sept 17, 2013 8:54:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

She cannot get an ID, and don't you dare tell me all you know about "limited mobility" until you've dealt with it personally!  Mother can't get to any of the places you mention.  Mother doesn't leave the house.  Even her doctor sees her here at home, jkapp.  When you know what you're talking about, please feel free to spout off!

If I was in such a poor health position where I couldn't even leave the house, then I don't see myself giving a shit who the president is, or any other douchebag politician for that matter...

Wow JKapp, I hope that some day you live my Dad's life.  He can not leave the house at will.  His life consists mostly of watching TV.  He is very interested in Politics so yes, voting is very important to him.  What do you imagine homebound people do all day?

[billisonboard]

Voting Fraud by Individuals:

1) a vote cast by a person other than the registered voter
2) a vote cast by a registered voter who is not eligible to cast said vote
    a) due to change in residency
    b) due to change in status making them ineligible to vote

Requiring simply a photo ID at the time and place of voting would prevent type 1 fraud unless one acquired false ID prior to arrive at the polling place.  Requiring photo ID would not impact this type of fraud for ballots that leave the controlled area of a polling place.  It would also do nothing to address type 2 voter fraud.

Requiring a photo ID at the time and place of voting would do nothing to alleviate type 2 voter fraud.  Requiring documentation that a person still resides at the address at which they are registered would seriously cut down on non-residency fraud but not on change of status fraud.  Not sure what type of documentation would establish residency.  Utility bills can be in the name of a landlord.  Also not all voters from a residency would necessarily have their name on the bill (e.g. spouses, older parents, young adults still living at home).

A mailed ballot to a physical address would cut down on the likelihood of non-residency fraud (accounting for the possibility that the resident would forward the ballot to a former resident) but still not address the issue of other than registered voter fraud.  Ballots mailed to PO Boxes (such as mine) would be subject to all types of voter fraud identified above.

A state police background check issued immediately prior to the election would prevent those convicted of a felony (if such disqualified the person in the state) from committing status voter fraud.  Not sure how to document that one has not be declared mentally incompetent.

So what do we do to eliminate voter fraud?

[sesfw]

'So, she should be unable to vote?'

Of course she should be able to vote.  It's called a mail-in ballot. 

In AZ the outside of the envelope has a place for a valid signature and when it's received at the balloting office the signature is compared to the signature on file.  If they match, the envelope is opened and the ballot goes to a counting machine.  If they don't match, all of it goes to the shredder.

Our little town is doing mail-in only for the election this November.  When I worked at the polls last year I had a couple of people complain about needing to show picture ID with the same address as on file.  I asked them how they would feel if I refused them a ballot because someone else had come in earlier and voted in their name.  That got them thinking.

With mail-in ballots available there is no excuse for eligible people not voting.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 17, 2013 11:17:54 GMT -5 sesfw said:

'So, she should be unable to vote?'

Of course she should be able to vote.  It's called a mail-in ballot. 

In AZ the outside of the envelope has a place for a valid signature and when it's received at the balloting office the signature is compared to the signature on file.  If they match, the envelope is opened and the ballot goes to a counting machine.  If they don't match, all of it goes to the shredder.

Our little town is doing mail-in only for the election this November.  When I worked at the polls last year I had a couple of people complain about needing to show picture ID with the same address as on file.  I asked them how they would feel if I refused them a ballot because someone else had come in earlier and voted in their name.  That got them thinking.

With mail-in ballots available there is no excuse for eligible people not voting.

Arizona employs handing writing experts to verify the signature written on the envelope is the same one that could have been on file for 20 years or more?  They really must be experts!

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2013 9:16:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Can anyone provide the statistics for voter fraud say for the 2012 presidentisl election?  I am curious what percentage of votes csst were confirmed to be fraudulent.

Is it even possible to know?  And honestly, I'd expect more fraud in smaller elections.  Ones where turnout is very low.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2013 9:31:28 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:19:39 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Is that an exception for ID or fraud?

An exception to show ID.  How does a person show an ID if an absentee ballot is being mailed to their home?  Absentee ballots are for those who are unable to visit polling places.  Some are homebound, some are serving in the military in other countries, some are business people out of the country and some work long shifts.

They would need to prove their identity to get the ballot, not to cast it.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2013 9:40:45 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:31:28 GMT -5 Peace77 said:

An exception to show ID.  How does a person show an ID if an absentee ballot is being mailed to their home?  Absentee ballots are for those who are unable to visit polling places.  Some are homebound, some are serving in the military in other countries, some are business people out of the country and some work long shifts.

Washington state conducts all voting by mail.

And I presume they mail the ballots to registered voters.  So that tends to make fraud a little more difficult.  Although I suppose it probably creates other opportunities for it (i.e. selling one's ballot?)

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2013 10:11:49 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:05:37 GMT -5 jkapp said:

If I was in such a poor health position where I couldn't even leave the house, then I don't see myself giving a shit who the president is, or any other douchebag politician for that matter...

Wow JKapp, I hope that some day you live my Dad's life.  He can not leave the house at will.  His life consists mostly of watching TV.  He is very interested in Politics so yes, voting is very important to him.  What do you imagine homebound people do all day?

I hope he watches a variety of sources, because the one sided coverage of most media outlets leads to scary voter situation.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 17, 2013 12:25:23 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

Sept 17, 2013 9:16:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Can anyone provide the statistics for voter fraud say for the 2012 presidentisl election?  I am curious what percentage of votes csst were confirmed to be fraudulent.

Is it even possible to know?  And honestly,yead expect more fraud in smaller elections.  Ones where turnout is very low.

If ìt ìs almost impossible to know the extent of voter fraud then how do we know it is a problem?  Is this trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?  There are around 180 million registered voters ìn the U.S.  Multiply that number (how ever many times) of voters who cast a ballot in various local, state and federal primaries and elections every year.

Maybe a better indicator would be how many convictions each year for voter fraud.  At least that would indicate the fraud has been legally proven.

[Virgil Showlion]

Can anyone provide the statistics for voter fraud say for the 2012 presidentisl election? I am curious what percentage of votes csst were confirmed to be fraudulent.

How on Earth are they going to reliably determine voter fraud statistics? My point in the OP is that even if fraud is nonexistent, is the measure not valuable as a means of weeding out dead weight citizens? The citizens who've abstained from doing everything listed in the OP, who don't mail in ballots, and who can't be bothered to obtain a state photo ID card (free, in most cases) to cast their votes?

Of course she should be able to vote. It's called a mail-in ballot.

Precisely. And there are specific identity protections built in to mail-in ballots, not the least of which is that the recipient controls the mailbox to which the card was sent.

I realize some individuals are genuinely homebound, and I have no problem with mail-in ballots. But for people showing up at the polling stations: a photo on a recognized state-issued piece of ID to confirm your identity. Going through the motions to get the card is the bare minimum price to vote for national leaders.

[mmhmm]

Sept 17, 2013 11:17:54 GMT -5 sesfw said:

'So, she should be unable to vote?'

Of course she should be able to vote.  It's called a mail-in ballot. 

In AZ the outside of the envelope has a place for a valid signature and when it's received at the balloting office the signature is compared to the signature on file.  If they match, the envelope is opened and the ballot goes to a counting machine.  If they don't match, all of it goes to the shredder.

Our little town is doing mail-in only for the election this November.  When I worked at the polls last year I had a couple of people complain about needing to show picture ID with the same address as on file.  I asked them how they would feel if I refused them a ballot because someone else had come in earlier and voted in their name.  That got them thinking.

With mail-in ballots available there is no excuse for eligible people not voting.

Heh.  Well, well, well.  There we hit another bump in the road, or path, or lemming trail, sesfw.  My mother couldn't write her name to match a signature on file to save her soul.  You see, there was this stroke ... 

She voted, as I said, in the last election by mail-in ballot.  She could still see a bit then.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2013 13:00:10 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If ìt ìs almost impossible to know the extent of voter fraud then how do we know it is a problem?  Is this trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?  There are around 180 million registered voters ìn the U.S.  Multiply that number (how ever many times) of voters who cast a ballot in various local, state and federal primaries and elections every year.

Maybe a better indicator would be how many convictions each year for voter fraud.  At least that would indicate the fraud has been legally proven.

I suppose we don't.  But I don't think that is a good reason to not allow a state to do it.  And honestly, if it's someone showing up pretending to be somoene else, I would assume a study could be conducted where you contact voters who supposedly voted and confirm that they actually voted.  I don't think there is a foolproof way to confirm the amount of fraud, but that would be a starting point.

The other way would be to keep track of how many people try to vote under a name that has already voted and then do some extrapolating to estimate how often it is actually happening.  But I think this method would be unreliable.

As I said, it's really local elections where turnout is like 10% or less where fraud would even be a big issue.  In those elections, one instance of fraud will produce much better results, and the odds of getting caught are also probably much lower.

Just thinking "out loud"....

[djAdvocate]

Sept 17, 2013 14:33:39 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

IMO it is pretty well established that the whole "voter fraud problem" is simply a Republican strategy to limit turn out amonst several constituancies less likely to vote GOP.

When our Republican governor was sworn in, it was one of the first items of his agenda.  He put his Sec. of State, who is in charge of elections, in charge of a task force to find cases of voter fraud among the "hundreds, maybe thousands" of reported cases out there.  They came up with two, for the past twenty years.

He also accused Democrats of bussing in "Hundreds" of fraudulant voters to vote in towns from Kittery to Fort Kent.  It is laughable.  My town has 3,000 people.  I usually say hello to Claire, the town clerk, as I sign in to vote.  I think we'd notice busloads of strangers being disgorged outside the fire station to come in and vote.  Yet he said that, all rightuous like and stuff.

the bellicose righteousness of the sanctity of vote argument is one of the most annoying aspects of it.  it is hard to argue with someone who is convinced that their non-issue is not only a real issue, but one of unrivaled import.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 17, 2013 10:13:22 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Voting Fraud by Individuals:

1) a vote cast by a person other than the registered voter
2) a vote cast by a registered voter who is not eligible to cast said vote
    a) due to change in residency
    b) due to change in status making them ineligible to vote

Requiring simply a photo ID at the time and place of voting would prevent type 1 fraud unless one acquired false ID prior to arrive at the polling place.  Requiring photo ID would not impact this type of fraud for ballots that leave the controlled area of a polling place.  It would also do nothing to address type 2 voter fraud.

Requiring a photo ID at the time and place of voting would do nothing to alleviate type 2 voter fraud.  Requiring documentation that a person still resides at the address at which they are registered would seriously cut down on non-residency fraud but not on change of status fraud.  Not sure what type of documentation would establish residency.  Utility bills can be in the name of a landlord.  Also not all voters from a residency would necessarily have their name on the bill (e.g. spouses, older parents, young adults still living at home).

A mailed ballot to a physical address would cut down on the likelihood of non-residency fraud (accounting for the possibility that the resident would forward the ballot to a former resident) but still not address the issue of other than registered voter fraud.  Ballots mailed to PO Boxes (such as mine) would be subject to all types of voter fraud identified above.

A state police background check issued immediately prior to the election would prevent those convicted of a felony (if such disqualified the person in the state) from committing status voter fraud.  Not sure how to document that one has not be declared mentally incompetent.

So what do we do to eliminate voter fraud?

worry about the political version of it, which is perpetrated NOT by individuals, but by GROUPS (such as political campaigns), and stop worrying about the other variety, which, TTBOMK, has never been enough of an issue to skew an election. 

[Opti]

How on Earth are they going to reliably determine voter fraud statistics? My point in the OP is that even if fraud is nonexistent, is the measure not valuable as a means of weeding out dead weight citizens? The citizens who've abstained from doing everything listed in the OP, who don't mail in ballots, and who can't be bothered to obtain a state photo ID card (free, in most cases) to cast their votes?

Even if fraud is nonexistent, we should change qualifying voters because it is a feel
good thing for Virgil?

Thank God the race to the bottom was quick and obvious this time.

I don't need a state photo ID card to vote and I'm OK with that. I feel people are going to have a harder time duplicating my signature versus flashing an ID card. Since voter rolls typically do not include pictures, any fake ID with a valid voter name will pass. The fake ID pic would only need to match the fraud voter. Its 2013 not 1960. In all this time no one on P&M has yet posted any recent case of voter fraud that swayed an election that
was committed solely or even mostly by in person voter fraud. Examples of rigging machines and mail in ballots, but I guess that's not important becuase weeding out citizens someone doesn't approve of is far more important than actually dealing with voter fraud.

[djAdvocate]

thought experiment:

you are going to commit voter fraud, knowing that, if you are caught, you will pay a fine of no less than $1,000, and no more than $5,000, and be imprisoned for up to (5) years.

WHY?

i mean, i violate the law regularly.  that is because i get something out of it, and i am willing to risk that freedom for the price of being caught.  what do i get out of a fraudulent vote?

[djAdvocate]

Sept 17, 2013 15:00:40 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Sept 17, 2013 14:52:06 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

thought experiment:

you are going to commit voter fraud, knowing that, if you are caught, you will pay a fine of no less than $1,000, and no more than $5,000, and be imprisoned for up to (5) years.

WHY?

No f'ing way I am going to take that kind of risk.  There is no reason that I can give why anyone would.  Not to mention I would not do it because I find it morally wrong, yes- repugnant.  Voter fraud is likely to be more systemic anyway.

i mean, i violate the law regularly.  that is because i get something out of it, and i am willing to risk that freedom for the price of being caught.  what do i get out of a fraudulent vote?

Well, there are laws, and then there are laws.  Just today, coming back from Massachusetts, I passed someone in a lane to the right side of them on the highway.  This would be legal in Massachusetts, but I was in Maine where it is illegal, so I broke the law.

Oh well.

that is precisely the sort of thing i am talking about.  i was driving home at 4:30 the other night, and i failed to stop at an intersection that was considerably less populated than a graveyard.  if caught, it was $500.  i will take that risk.

[EVT1]

Sept 17, 2013 9:05:37 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Sept 17, 2013 8:54:28 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

She cannot get an ID, and don't you dare tell me all you know about "limited mobility" until you've dealt with it personally!  Mother can't get to any of the places you mention.  Mother doesn't leave the house.  Even her doctor sees her here at home, jkapp.  When you know what you're talking about, please feel free to spout off!

If I was in such a poor health position where I couldn't even leave the house, then I don't see myself giving a shit who the president is, or any other douchebag politician for that matter...

And that would be your right to not give a shit- however other citizens might be concerned- maybe about their own health care and how it affects the family- and maybe how people like Ryan would pull the rug out from under them- I know I would be and I would vote until the day I die to stop certain agendas.  Undue burden is just that- maybe we shift the burden of proof to the state to prove someone is not who they claim.  Better- put the burden on the GOP since they are the ones so concerned about the rampant fraud out there that only exists in their minds.

[resolution]

I had a relative (belated) that committed voter fraud for years in exchange for some felony charges being dropped. We can say that it seldom happens, but I know for a fact that it does actually happen.

That's the main reason why I am not opposed to reasonable ID requirements as long as there is enough time and assistance for people to obtain the documents needed. And of course exceptions for the home-bound and the elderly that were delivered without a birth certificate.

[Virgil Showlion]

Examples of rigging machines and mail in ballots, but I guess that's not important becuase weeding out citizens someone doesn't approve of is far more important than actually dealing with voter fraud.

You're the one positing that fraud isn't a problem. I'm saying that citizens without photo ID, who won't get it, and who won't mail in their vote are dead weight. You do not want the deadest of the dead weight citizens determining election outcomes. They fail to meet the bare minimum standard of competence to participate. We deny minors the right to vote for the very same reason.