mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 15:44:17 GMT -5
People who won't get photo ID (if required) and won't even mail in a vote aren't going to vote anyway, in all probability. Mailing in a vote doesn't require any real effort. If they won't do that, they're not going to get into their cars and drive to the polling place, get out, stand in line, and do their civic duty.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 15:53:11 GMT -5
If ìt ìs almost impossible to know the extent of voter fraud then how do we know it is a problem? Is this trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist? There are around 180 million registered voters ìn the U.S. Multiply that number (how ever many times) of voters who cast a ballot in various local, state and federal primaries and elections every year. Maybe a better indicator would be how many convictions each year for voter fraud. At least that would indicate the fraud has been legally proven. I suppose we don't. But I don't think that is a good reason to not allow a state to do it. And honestly, if it's someone showing up pretending to be somoene else, I would assume a study could be conducted where you contact voters who supposedly voted and confirm that they actually voted. I don't think there is a foolproof way to confirm the amount of fraud, but that would be a starting point. The other way would be to keep track of how many people try to vote under a name that has already votedand then do some extrapolating to estimate how often it is actually happening. But I think this method would be unreliable. As I said, it's really local elections where turnout is like 10% or less where fraud would even be a big issue. In those elections, one instance of fraud will produce much better results, and the odds of getting caught are also probably much lower. Just thinking "out loud".... Allegedly, the most common first name ìn the U.S. for males ìs James. The most common last name ìs Smith. In the city where I live, there are easily more than 100 adult men named James Smith. So that may be a problem if James Smith's name has been checked off as already having voted and when the next James Smith comes in to vote.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 15:57:02 GMT -5
Dem--Your description of what's going on in your state makes for a convincing argument. I personally don't know much about the issue, but if what you say is the norm elsewhere, then this does sound like a waste of time at best.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 15:58:05 GMT -5
People who won't get photo ID (if required) and won't even mail in a vote aren't going to vote anyway, in all probability. Mailing in a vote doesn't require any real effort. If they won't do that, they're not going to get into their cars and drive to the polling place, get out, stand in line, and do their civic duty. The law would polarize non-ID-havers into two groups: those who consider the vote valuable, who are motivated and willing to take steps to participate in the process; and those who don't value the vote, who either stay home or visit the polls only under the most convenient (or coerced) circumstances. The former group will take the necessary steps and participate. The latter will have one more excuse not to vote. If the law has the effect of making fraud more difficult, that's an added bonus.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 16:00:03 GMT -5
Voters are already polarized into those two groups, Virgil, and the possession of an ID has nothing to do with it. Those who don't care enough to vote don't need an excuse. They just don't bother.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 16:02:11 GMT -5
If we are going to make it mandatory to have photo IDs to vote, why not go a step further to keep up with new technology: iris scans. Or a step back in technology: finger prints.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 16:14:45 GMT -5
Voters are already polarized into those two groups, Virgil, and the possession of an ID has nothing to do with it. Those who don't care enough to vote don't need an excuse. They just don't bother. It just raises the bar a little. As far as I'm concerned, the higher the bar goes, the better. If I could pass a law requiring every citizen to pay $50.00 to pass an English-only (or English-French in Canada) 2-hour-long electronic test that tested current events knowledge, familiarity with party platforms, and proposed spending in order cast a vote, I'd do it. Because the technology would cost hundreds of millions, is invasive, and is a completely unnecessary standard of security? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Why don't we have 30-foot tall battle droids with saw blades for arms stationed in the terrain around federal prisons?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 17, 2013 16:17:12 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 16:20:01 GMT -5
Voters are already polarized into those two groups, Virgil, and the possession of an ID has nothing to do with it. Those who don't care enough to vote don't need an excuse. They just don't bother. It just raises the bar a little. As far as I'm concerned, the higher the bar goes, the better. If I could pass a law requiring every citizen to pay $50.00 to pass an English-only (or English-French in Canada) 2-hour-long electronic test that tested current events knowledge, familiarity with party platforms, and proposed spending in order cast a vote, I'd do it. Because the technology would cost hundreds of millions, is invasive, and is a completely unnecessary standard of security? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Why don't we have 30-foot tall battle droids with saw blades for arms stationed in the terrain around federal prisons? Yet you want a poll tax. Pay to vote. Being forced to sit for a photo is invasive too.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 17, 2013 16:21:25 GMT -5
Ack. I've been V5'd and Cloud-fared again. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/melancholy.png) Oh well, I'll end with my favorite point. Is Stephen Hawking a dead beat voter? He'd need help to fill out a mail in ballot.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 16:31:55 GMT -5
It just raises the bar a little. As far as I'm concerned, the higher the bar goes, the better. If I could pass a law requiring every citizen to pay $50.00 to pass an English-only (or English-French in Canada) 2-hour-long electronic test that tested current events knowledge, familiarity with party platforms, and proposed spending in order cast a vote, I'd do it. Because the technology would cost hundreds of millions, is invasive, and is a completely unnecessary standard of security? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Why don't we have 30-foot tall battle droids with saw blades for arms stationed in the terrain around federal prisons? Yet you want a poll tax. Pay to vote. Being forced to sit for a photo is invasive too. To defray the costs of testing and running the election, certainly. An individual would send a cheque to the government at any point prior to the election and receive a receipt entitling him/her to take the test. Individuals below the poverty line or in other qualified circumstances could obtain the receipt without a fee.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 16:34:01 GMT -5
Ack. I've been V5'd and Cloud-fared again. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/melancholy.png) Oh well, I'll end with my favorite point. Is Stephen Hawking a dead beat voter? He'd need help to fill out a mail in ballot. But he can still fill out a mail-in ballot. And the point is moot anyway since Dr. Hawking is English. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 17, 2013 16:49:42 GMT -5
He's passed now, but another example would have been Christopher Reeves. But part of my point is, what is superior about a mail in ballot especially if you may need someone's physical assistance to fill it out versus walking into the polling place and voting? I don't get it. Am I a second class voter according to the Virgil rules because I don't need a picture ID to vote and I walk to and vote in person? Or do I sneak in as OK because I have a picture ID I use for other things and disabled people who have no need for picture ID are only acceptable voters if they mail it in? Even rock paper scissors lizard Spock can't make this make sense. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 17, 2013 16:55:51 GMT -5
I had a relative (belated) that committed voter fraud for years in exchange for some felony charges being dropped. We can say that it seldom happens, but I know for a fact that it does actually happen. That's the main reason why I am not opposed to reasonable ID requirements as long as there is enough time and assistance for people to obtain the documents needed. And of course exceptions for the home-bound and the elderly that were delivered without a birth certificate. What type of voter fraud did your relative engage in? What ID requirements would have prevented it from happening?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 17:47:44 GMT -5
Yet you want a poll tax. Pay to vote. Being forced to sit for a photo is invasive too. To defray the costs of testing and running the election, certainly. An individual would send a cheque to the government at any point prior to the election and receive a receipt entitling him/her to take the test. Individuals below the poverty line or in other qualified circumstances could obtain the receipt without a fee. Many folks unable to competently read (at the level you would require) are perfectly able to listen to and understand a politician's position who is speaking ìn person, on television ads, and during debates. Most are also able to read a candidate's name as ìt will be shown on television quite often during election season. Fortunately, we don't require citizens to pass tests or pay fees to take tests as a condition to vote in our country.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Sept 17, 2013 17:56:09 GMT -5
I had a relative (belated) that committed voter fraud for years in exchange for some felony charges being dropped. We can say that it seldom happens, but I know for a fact that it does actually happen. That's the main reason why I am not opposed to reasonable ID requirements as long as there is enough time and assistance for people to obtain the documents needed. And of course exceptions for the home-bound and the elderly that were delivered without a birth certificate. What type of voter fraud did your relative engage in? What ID requirements would have prevented it from happening? I don't know all the details because he was deceased about 15 years before I was told about it. I believe it took place in the 1960s. He was given a list of polling places and names and he voted with a different name at each polling place. This was local city elections. ID would have absolutely prevented it, unless he received ID's along with the list. He did it to stay out of jail for arson. He was mentally ill.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 18:01:27 GMT -5
What type of voter fraud did your relative engage in? What ID requirements would have prevented it from happening? I don't know all the details because he was deceased about 15 years before I was told about it. I believe it took place in the 1960s. He was given a list of polling places and names and he voted with a different name at each polling place. This was local city elections. ID would have absolutely prevented it, unless he received ID's along with the list. He did it to stay out of jail for arson. He was mentally ill. And the person who took advantage of a mentally Ìll person was criminal.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 17, 2013 20:32:46 GMT -5
Voters are already polarized into those two groups, Virgil, and the possession of an ID has nothing to do with it. Those who don't care enough to vote don't need an excuse. They just don't bother. It just raises the bar a little. As far as I'm concerned, the higher the bar goes, the better. If I could pass a law requiring every citizen to pay $50.00 to pass an English-only (or English-French in Canada) 2-hour-long electronic test that tested current events knowledge, familiarity with party platforms, and proposed spending in order cast a vote, I'd do it. Damn Jim- didn't we already do that.... BTW that could backfire- a large chunk of both bases would fail the test and don't have the cash to pay- but unless Fox and Rush adjust their programming then the paying liberals are going to smoke the paying conservatives on the test. Surely you saw those stats on the most uninformed voters.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Sept 17, 2013 21:31:35 GMT -5
Back when we had those tests there was different scoring based on if the polling staff wanted you to vote or not.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Sept 17, 2013 22:00:01 GMT -5
People who won't get photo ID (if required) and won't even mail in a vote aren't going to vote anyway, in all probability. Mailing in a vote doesn't require any real effort. If they won't do that, they're not going to get into their cars and drive to the polling place, get out, stand in line, and do their civic duty. I'm not sure you know as much about the poor, remote rural areas of the west as you think you do. I was all for requiring ID, but when I thought about it, I know we will just further alienate the poor. Even if they don't vote, the fact that we tell them that they can't vote is crappy. I think we should keep our country free. We have eroded the crap out of freedom here. Let's not just crush what little we have left.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 17, 2013 22:10:10 GMT -5
I may be grossly mistaken, and if so I will apologize ahead of time to Virgil, but isn't it Virgil who has stated several times in the past he does not vote?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2013 22:16:14 GMT -5
People who won't get photo ID (if required) and won't even mail in a vote aren't going to vote anyway, in all probability. Mailing in a vote doesn't require any real effort. If they won't do that, they're not going to get into their cars and drive to the polling place, get out, stand in line, and do their civic duty. I'm not sure you know as much about the poor, remote rural areas of the west as you think you do. I was all for requiring ID, but when I thought about it, I know we will just further alienate the poor. Even if they don't vote, the fact that we tell them that they can't vote is crappy. I think we should keep our country free. We have eroded the crap out of freedom here. Let's not just crush what little we have left. I don't think I've ever claimed to know much of anything about the poor, rural areas of the west, thyme4change. Do feel free to show me any post in which I made such a claim. Frankly, I believe everyone of legal age should be eligible to vote. The idea of having to pass a series of tests designed by somebody who thinks he/she should be the judge of who can and cannot vote just rubs my fur the wrong way. Heck, why not go back to letting only male land-owners vote? Roughly the same thing, I'd say.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Sept 17, 2013 22:22:18 GMT -5
I may be grossly mistaken, and if so I will apologize ahead of time to Virgil, but isn't it Virgil who has stated several times in the past he does not vote? At least not in this country ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Or does he.........
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 17, 2013 23:15:10 GMT -5
If you mail it in, you've proven your identity and demonstrated a minimum standard of competence to participate. If you show up in person at the polls with an approved photo ID, you've proven your identity and demonstrated a minimum standard of competence to participate. If you show up in person at the polls without having obtained approved photo ID, you may or may not be able to prove your identity (subject to the judgment of poll officials) and you have not demonstrated a minimum standard of competence to participate. ...and you've been electing the same two corrupt, pandering, war-mongering, spend-happy parties with largely indistinguishable policies for decades on end. Enjoy your deadlocked government, attack ads, 24-hour news cycles devoted to simple gaffes, and screaming matches on current events shows from now until ever more. I abstain from voting for personal reasons. I do however value the vote and favour any measures that emphasize and protect its value. I pay my share of taxes and engage society at large in a variety of other ways. I don't participate in its governance through the civil architecture. (I just happen to be subject to that governance. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/undecided.png) )
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 23:49:28 GMT -5
How bizarre. He doesn't bother to vote where he lives, BUT... he wants to tell everyone who lives in the country south of where he lives how they should conduct their politics. Astounding.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 18, 2013 0:03:49 GMT -5
answer to the question in the OP: far more Democrats than Republicans.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 18, 2013 2:59:28 GMT -5
How bizarre. He doesn't bother to vote where he lives, BUT... he wants to tell everyone who lives in the country south of where he lives how they should conduct their politics. Astounding. And over two thirds of the insect kingdom is made up of beetles. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) I'll bet your mind is getting all kinds of blown today.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 3:04:03 GMT -5
If ever I need an inane non sequitur, Virgil, I'll look you up.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Sept 18, 2013 8:50:04 GMT -5
If I was in such a poor health position where I couldn't even leave the house, then I don't see myself giving a shit who the president is, or any other douchebag politician for that matter... And that would be your right to not give a shit- however other citizens might be concerned- maybe about their own health care and how it affects the family- and maybe how people like Ryan would pull the rug out from under them- I know I would be and I would vote until the day I die to stop certain agendas. Undue burden is just that- maybe we shift the burden of proof to the state to prove someone is not who they claim. Better- put the burden on the GOP since they are the ones so concerned about the rampant fraud out there that only exists in their minds. Anf that's one of the biggest problems in this country, IMO. People voting to get or keep "benefits" to themselves. If that's the reason people vote, our country is already doomed...
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Sept 18, 2013 9:26:31 GMT -5
If all states had competent ID issuing agencies, requiring an ID wouldn't be an issue.
In Massachusetts, getting a driver's licence or ID means spending 3 hours standing in line and then dealing with an evil, incompetent cow, who won't give her last name because she doesn't want to be held accountable for anything, and not getting what you need even when you have all your ducks in a row. As soon as I left the state for college, I started getting my driver's licence renewed in the state I was going to school in, because it was way less hassle.
My DH has a very generic first and last name and is about as white as one can be without being an albino. He couldn't get his driver's licence renewed in Florida because the licence lady found these outstanding warrants, all against african american men with different social security numbers, but the same first and last name. He finally went to another licence office, so he wouldn't have to deal with that person, and got his licence without any problems.
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