It all depends

[midwesterner (banned)]

I was using the 30 year mortgage statement as a metaphor in regards to social security if you followed the train of thought.... Bankers have been bankers since the invention of money. Some pay to the banker, some get paid from the banker, it's your choice. Going by your rants you're in the pay to the banker group. I did think it was humorous though, when you wrote that I should "learn" about the banking system and my lack of "understanding".

I think is quite sad that you would come here and laugh about usury and people getting screwed. If you can't beat um, join um attitude is disgraceful. You can have your laughs with your dirty money, I'll keep my soul, my pride, and patriotism while you have your material possessions.

Sad how some of you think materialism is wealth, when real wealth comes from Love, family, friends, so much more that has been given to us for free, by the maker. That's' being rich to have those things, not a Porsche, a Mansion, or beach front property in France.

[Deleted]

I would point out there have always been those that:
a. are manipulative
b. lack empathy for others
c. are reckless, impulsive
d. lie
e. have a disregard for rules, laws and social customs
f. exhibit violent and intimidating behavior and have trouble with controlling his/her impulses
g. neglect the needs of others

Historically most societies frowned on those behaviors as they are ultimately destructive not only to the individual that possesses them , but to the greater society around them. Those “bad apples” were dealt with in various ways, often harshly, to avoid their spoiling the entire bunch. In modern times this behavior has been categorized as being sociopathic, yet rather than “deal” with it, it has been , for the past few decades, increasingly rewarded. We are currently seeing the effects of this in our economies, our political systems, and increasingly, in interactions with each other.


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"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"

Yes i am aware of this. But it is a socialistic utopian view of where we might get in 200-300 years. In this society....it is dog eat dog. And it HAS been that way since the dawn of time. Someone always covets what he does not own.....greed is and always has been a nature of man. Do you deny this?

Wars have been fought over ideas. borders, and assets. War is happening daily in the business world, as one business tries to get the edge on their competitor

You can be ruthless in business....and still be a pillar of the community. And MOST business owners are. They donate time, money, and items to causes that they deem important. Where do you think all the money comes from for all the projects that are done....from the working class? But before you can be generous and giving...you have to EARN it.....and Henry Ford was a pioneer. And his philosophy wouldnt work today. Why?

Same reason that Apple has cleaned the clock on other companies for last 8-10 years. Great products, best technology, and a public demand for the product.

Henry would have to deal with 50 other competitors today, along with unions, OSHA, and all the other federal crap that never existed back then. He would get his ass handed to him today.

[Deleted]

Sad how some of you think materialism is wealth, when real wealth comes from Love, family, friends, so much more that has been given to us for free, by the maker. That's' being rich to have those things, not a Porsche, a Mansion, or beach front property in France.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=moneytalk&thread=3417&page=5#ixzz1EKDjj0PT

Mid

I agree that money doesnt buy happiness. Never has...never will.

But when you really need money....and you dont have any....

1. when a loved one needs surgery that insurance wont pay for
2. when your daughter gets married....and the event is perfect
3. when your son wants a loan to START his business

Money cant buy happiness....but it goes a long way towards keeping those you love from unhappiness....food for thought....and why so many of us on here work so damn hard trying to accumulate as much as we can.....

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 10:33:25 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Yes i am aware of this. But it is a socialistic utopian view of where we might get in 200-300 years. In this society....it is dog eat dog. And it HAS been that way since the dawn of time. Someone always covets what he does not own.....greed is and always has been a nature of man. Do you deny this?

Wars have been fought over ideas. borders, and assets. War is happening daily in the business world, as one business tries to get the edge on their competitor

You can be ruthless in business....and still be a pillar of the community. And MOST business owners are. They donate time, money, and items to causes that they deem important. Where do you think all the money comes from for all the projects that are done....from the working class? But before you can be generous and giving...you have to EARN it.....and Henry Ford was a pioneer. And his philosophy wouldnt work today. Why?

Same reason that Apple has cleaned the clock on other companies for last 8-10 years. Great products, best technology, and a public demand for the product.

Henry would have to deal with 50 other competitors today, along with unions, OSHA, and all the other federal crap that never existed back then. He would get his ass handed to him today.

The continued attempt to marginalize and negate the opinions of others by screaming, "socialist ! communist !" is nothing more than a self-preservation tactic by those who enjoy the current trend of the economic redistribution of wealth from the bottom and middle of the pyramid to the top. Salesmen are notorious for promoting their self interests.
I'm all for enjoying the fruits of one's own labor. I'm against the redistribution of that fruit to the 10% who are notorious themselves for *not* being "generous". Are you saying you are in favor of 10% of the population extracting the fruits of other's labor, of owning 90% of the nation's wealth?
Could you enlighten me how Apple has "cleaned the clock on other companies" ? It certainly has not "cleaned the clock" on Microsoft, which has the monopoly on PC operating systems in the U.S. How many people do you know run a platform on Unix or Ubuntu ? Hmmm...probably not many. And I am pretty sure Henry Ford could contend with anyone today.
Being "ruthless in business and a pillar in society" is a complete falsehood and is more indicative of a duality of nature that is at best described as hypocrisy, at worst schizophrenia.
Regulations and accountability have been the pillars of all great societies since humans walked out of forests and jungles and decided to work together for a greater, common good rather than continue to behave as the lower life forms.
( btw way, your comparison of a "dog eat dog " world is an inaccurate metaphor as dogs are pack animals that work together , as are their predecessors, wolves. Even our four legged friends learned their socialization lessons as pups.).

[Virgil Showlion]

your comparison of a "dog eat dog " world is an inaccurate metaphor as dogs are pack animals that work together , as are their predecessors, wolves

Let us not forget, however, that there is only one alpha male and alpha female in a pack--and they get 100% of the mating privileges.

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 11:24:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

your comparison of a "dog eat dog " world is an inaccurate metaphor as dogs are pack animals that work together , as are their predecessors, wolves

Let us not forget, however, that there is only one alpha male and alpha female in a pack--and they get 100% of the mating privileges.

Mating "privileges" aside, those pack leaders still share the kill and will fight to the death for the lives of other members, instinctively knowing that the death and starvation of the rest of the pack would result in their own demise.

[Deleted]

Feb 18, 2011 10:28:40 GMT -5 midwesterner (banned) said:

I was using the 30 year mortgage statement as a metaphor in regards to social security if you followed the train of thought.... Bankers have been bankers since the invention of money. Some pay to the banker, some get paid from the banker, it's your choice. Going by your rants you're in the pay to the banker group. I did think it was humorous though, when you wrote that I should "learn" about the banking system and my lack of "understanding".

I think is quite sad that you would come here and laugh about usury and people getting screwed. If you can't beat um, join um attitude is disgraceful. You can have your laughs with your dirty money, I'll keep my soul, my pride, and patriotism while you have your material possessions.

Sad how some of you think materialism is wealth, when real wealth comes from Love, family, friends, so much more that has been given to us for free, by the maker. That's' being rich to have those things, not a Porsche, a Mansion, or beach front property in France.

Wealth means different things to different people. Assuming I'm materialistic because of wealth only adds to my humor. Assuming that someone can't get "screwed" because they've reached some arbitrary plateau of an asset level is just naive.

[domeasingold]

In my house I am the pack leader. It's pretty much up for grabs at mealtime though. If I'm not around to intervene, only the biggest most aggressive dog gets to eat.

[domeasingold]

We expect to walk down our streets and sleep in our homes without being attacked. We achieve what we expect in these areas, and others, by laws, regulations and holding those responsible, accountable.

Guess you never lived in Chicago.

[Deleted]

Kate

Ok

You win....i refuse to try anymore with you.....

You see things your way...ill see things my way....

You can whine and cry with your friends about life not being fair....and the greedy corporate people own everything....while i continue to strive for my share of the pie

And to answer the last question i will answer

I'm all for enjoying the fruits of one's own labor. I'm against the redistribution of that fruit to the 10% who are notorious themselves for *not* being "generous". Are you saying you are in favor of 10% of the population extracting the fruits of other's labor, of owning 90% of the nation's wealth?


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You make it sound like they did nothing.....risked nothing.....gave back nothing

Work is not just for the middle class....the bosses actually work too.....just not in the same way....

If you dont think so read the biographies of Buffett or Gates.....and yeah...they give NOTHING back to the rest of society

lol...

[midwesterner (banned)]

If you dont think so read the biographies of Buffett or Gates.....and yeah...they give NOTHING back to the rest of society

lol...

Jokes on you, wonder foundation isn't it. Ha!!

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 11:51:11 GMT -5 domeasingold said:

We expect to walk down our streets and sleep in our homes without being attacked. We achieve what we expect in these areas, and others, by laws, regulations and holding those responsible, accountable.

Guess you never lived in Chicago.

Born and raised in Detroit darlin';as I child I watched my hometown burn in the riots of the 1960's, and later lost my first love to a heroin addiction. I'm well aware of the dangers of life. Most of them can be traced to the actions of the sociopathic few-

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 11:56:48 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Kate

Ok

You win....i refuse to try anymore with you.....

You see things your way...ill see things my way....

You can whine and cry with your friends about life not being fair....and the greedy corporate people own everything....while i continue to strive for my share of the pie

And to answer the last question i will answer

I'm all for enjoying the fruits of one's own labor. I'm against the redistribution of that fruit to the 10% who are notorious themselves for *not* being "generous". Are you saying you are in favor of 10% of the population extracting the fruits of other's labor, of owning 90% of the nation's wealth?


Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=moneytalk&thread=3417&page=5#ixzz1EKWZDI00

You make it sound like they did nothing.....risked nothing.....gave back nothing

Work is not just for the middle class....the bosses actually work too.....just not in the same way....

If you dont think so read the biographies of Buffett or Gates.....and yeah...they give NOTHING back to the rest of society

lol...

Never whine and I save my tears for those that deserve them. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are not included in the sociopathic few I refer to. If you continue to see the world only in black or white, either/ or schematics, you will continue to miss my point. It's about refining/regulating existing systems and insisting upon accountability, not throwing out innocent babes with the sullied bath water.
I'll repeat myself in simplicity, since the message I'm attempting to convey appears to be lost on you;

Democracy/Capitalism,enjoying the fruits of one's own labor, good.
Deregulation/lack of accountability,redistribution of wealth to less than 5% of the population,
bad.

[Deleted]

Democracy/Capitalism,enjoying the fruits of one's own labor, good.
Deregulation/lack of accountability,redistribution of wealth to less than 5% of the population,
bad.
Excellent points, simply put and difficult to spin, who wouldn't agree with them ! I have one question though. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. There is a huge difference between the two. How would you consolidate your first statement with the correct form of government we live under ?

[Deleted]

The Gates Foundation

The 15 principles below reflect the Gates family's beliefs about the role of philanthropy and the impact they want this foundation to have. The principles guide what we do, why we do it, and how we do it.

While many of them are fundamental to the way we operate, we will remain open to amending them as we grow and learn more about our work.

Guiding Principle #1: This is a family foundation driven by the interests and passions of the Gates family.

Guiding Principle #2: Philanthropy plays an important but limited role.

Guiding Principle #3: Science and technology have great potential to improve lives around the world.

Guiding Principle #4: We are funders and shapers—we rely on others to act and implement.

Guiding Principle #5: Our focus is clear—and limited—and prioritizes some of the most neglected issues.

Guiding Principle #6: We identify a specific point of intervention and apply our efforts against a theory of change.

Guiding Principle #7: We take risks, make big bets, and move with urgency. We are in it for the long haul.

Guiding Principle #8: We advocate—vigorously but responsibly—in our areas of focus.

Guiding Principle #9: We must be humble and mindful in our actions and words. We seek and heed the counsel of outside voices.

Guiding Principle #10: We treat our grantees as valued partners, and we treat the ultimate beneficiaries of our work with respect.

Guiding Principle #11: Delivering results with the resources we have been given is of the utmost importance—and we seek and share information about those results.

Guiding Principle #12: We demand ethical behavior of ourselves.

Guiding Principle #13: We treat each other as valued colleagues.

Guiding Principle #14: Meeting our mission—to increase opportunity and equity for those most in need—requires great stewardship of the money we have available.

Guiding Principle #15: We leave room for growth and change.

Mid

One of five foundations/charities that i give to annually.

You may not like the work they do....i think it is incredible

My others that you would also probably find fault with

UNICEF
MDA
Childrens Diabetes
National Coalition for the homeless

We all have our pet projects...and our beliefs....lets just say you dont have to agree with my decisions in this matter

[frankq]

"The continued attempt to marginalize and negate the opinions of others by screaming, "socialist ! communist !" is nothing more than a self-preservation tactic by those who enjoy the current trend of the economic redistribution of wealth from the bottom and middle of the pyramid to the top."

And your way is the surest path to the Socialist/Communist system. For a government to decide how much to compensate it's citizens is certainly akin to those systems. We just call 'em like we see 'em. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but in your world, don't count on growing too much business. Or jobs for that matter. I occurs to me that one of the biggest expences families face is in the area of health care. Medical costs have been rising at double digit rates annually for years. Far exceeding inflation. Maybe we should try your plan out on people working in the medical industry to hold down costs and make health care more affordable to the masses?

[usaone]

Feb 18, 2011 13:30:56 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Democracy/Capitalism,enjoying the fruits of one's own labor, good.
Deregulation/lack of accountability,redistribution of wealth to less than 5% of the population,
bad.
Excellent points, simply put and difficult to spin, who wouldn't agree with them ! I have one question though. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. There is a huge difference between the two. How would you consolidate your first statement with the correct form of government we live under ?

Quite a few people on this board dont know we live in a Republic. I guess they didnt teach that in school back in the 1940's.

[comokate]

Quite a few people on this board dont know we live in a Republic. I guess they didnt teach that in school back in the 1940's.

?

And your way is the surest path to the Socialist/Communist system. For a government to decide how much to compensate it's citizens is certainly akin to those systems. We just call 'em like we see 'em.

If that's what you "see", you need a better opthamologist.

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 13:30:56 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Democracy/Capitalism,enjoying the fruits of one's own labor, good.
Deregulation/lack of accountability,redistribution of wealth to less than 5% of the population,
bad.
Excellent points, simply put and difficult to spin, who wouldn't agree with them ! I have one question though. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. There is a huge difference between the two. How would you consolidate your first statement with the correct form of government we live under ?

We, allegedly still, elect our leaders under a democratic process and I would argue that we don't live in a truly capitalistic society when we privatize profits and socialize the repayment of poor business decisions of mega corps/"financial" institutions.

edited for spelling error-

[Deleted]

Feb 18, 2011 13:49:53 GMT -5 @comokate said:

Feb 18, 2011 13:30:56 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Democracy/Capitalism,enjoying the fruits of one's own labor, good.
Deregulation/lack of accountability,redistribution of wealth to less than 5% of the population,
bad.
Excellent points, simply put and difficult to spin, who wouldn't agree with them ! I have one question though. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. There is a huge difference between the two. How would you consolidate your first statement with the correct form of government we live under ?

We, allegedly still, elect our leaders under a democratic process and I would argue that we don't live in a truly capitalistic society when we privatize profits and socialize the repayment of poor business decisions by mega corps/"financial" institutions.

Agreed.

[frankq]

Feb 18, 2011 13:45:14 GMT -5 @comokate said:

Quite a few people on this board dont know we live in a Republic. I guess they didnt teach that in school back in the 1940's.

?

And your way is the surest path to the Socialist/Communist system. For a government to decide how much to compensate it's citizens is certainly akin to those systems. We just call 'em like we see 'em.

If that's what you "see", you need a better opthamologist.

And you need to spend less time crying about those who have more than you and more time trying to better your situation.

[ihearyou2]

Money does buy happiness as many recent studies have illustrated. The study did find that this was only in connection to true "needs" which amounted to somewhere in the range of 50-75K for the average American depending on where you lived. Amounts more then that only achieved marginal increases in happiness.

One of the most important functions government can provide is regulations. Everyone needs to know that there is a big stick that is waiting out there to swing if necessary. The problem is twofold with this approach. Firstly government's typical reaction is too much regulation, which does not help any parties involved. The second is that there is no regulation of the regulators which creates room for abuse and largesse in government itself. This is the force that we see currently sweeping the nation whichi is demanding, rightly, accountabilitiy by the very people who should know better. If the average American is struggling and having wrenching changes made to their situations, most certainly the people who are being paid by the average American to govern us should have the same changes made, if not more. What is going on in Wisconsin does not make me feel more sympathetic to the teachers rather it makes me more angry as they are so out of touch with what is occurring in this country as they continued to demand benefits that have long been removed from the average American's.

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 14:04:15 GMT -5 frankq said:

Feb 18, 2011 13:45:14 GMT -5 @comokate said:

?




If that's what you "see", you need a better opthamologist.

And you need to spend less time crying about those who have more than you and more time trying to better your situation.

You know nothing about what I do with my time as evidenced by the fact you are wrong on both accounts-

[frankq]

Ok kate. Whatever you say.

[comokate]

Feb 18, 2011 14:06:31 GMT -5 ihearyou2 said:

Money does buy happiness as many recent studies have illustrated. The study did find that this was only in connection to true "needs" which amounted to somewhere in the range of 50-75K for the average American depending on where you lived. Amounts more then that only achieved marginal increases in happiness.

One of the most important functions government can provide is regulations. Everyone needs to know that there is a big stick that is waiting out there to swing if necessary. The problem is twofold with this approach. Firstly government's typical reaction is too much regulation, which does not help any parties involved. The second is that there is no regulation of the regulators which creates room for abuse and largesse in government itself. This is the force that we see currently sweeping the nation whichi is demanding, rightly, accountabilitiy by the very people who should know better. If the average American is struggling and having wrenching changes made to their situations, most certainly the people who are being paid by the average American to govern us should have the same changes made, if not more. What is going on in Wisconsin does not make me feel more sympathetic to the teachers rather it makes me more angry as they are so out of touch with what is occurring in this country as they continued to demand benefits that have long been removed from the average American's.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you on some points, disagree with others.
As with most things in life, there needs to be a balance. Good regulatory control insures the health of a nation and of it's people. Over-regulation/deregulation has the opposite effect.
The top few are encouraging the rest of us to waste time pointing fingers at each other. It provides a needed, convenient smokescreen as to where/whom the problems originate from.
Unions did not ask for too much, what happened was the rest of the nation's workers fell behind in wages and benefits. The comparison in inequality was masked by an economy of consumption that was fueled by a real estate bubble, predatory lending practices, and the public's use of their home equity as an ATM machine to subsidize their , in reality, falling standard of living.

[domeasingold]

Born and raised in Detroit darlin';as I child I watched my hometown burn in the riots of the 1960's, and later lost my first love to a heroin addiction. I'm well aware of the dangers of life. Most of them can be traced to the actions of the sociopathic few-[/quote]

Then you have no illusions about growing up in the late 60's?
We may not have had it as bad as you, but we had our share.
MLK riots. Mayor orders "shoot to kill" against looters and attacks on police and fire fighters. Days of rage on the lakefront. National Guard patrolling the streets. Yes there was an upheaval and revolution evident but somehow most of us survived it. I myself made a choice. Prior to getting my draft notice, I joined the military instead of fleeing to Canada. I was a student in Jr college.
I imagine some of the same thoughts and challenges remain today.

[neohguy]

frankq, socializing the losses of the banks is not capitalism. Trying to support house prices by artificially lowering the interest rates, for savers and borrowers, is not a free market. What you are seeing in this country is state sponsored cronyism, not democracy.

[sangria]

I like pie!

[Deleted]

Does ANYONE on this board like the fact that the banks were bailed out? Does anyone not think that those that caused the massive financial problem should pay for their deeds?

It happened. I dont like it. No one i know does

But...we have choices. Bitch about it...and continue to complain...or figure out a way to better ourselves with the information out there

Some of us chose the latter....and we have not only made back what was lost....but i have almost tripled my net wealth since March 09. Oh...but you say...it was on the backs of our children and grand children....

I learned a long time ago....those with the money make the rules....i am just playing the cards i was dealt....and trying to make the most out of a bad situation

And my children and grand children will have my wealth to help pay back the crap that is now owed. And they hopefully will continue to build what i have started....

But i can sleep well at night knowing i did the best i could to better myself and my family....and if that isnt our sole reason for investing, i dont know what in the world it could be

[domeasingold]

I second that emotion gdgyva!