It all depends

[djrick]

Why would bankruptcy laws be changed when consumption on credit was being encouraged?
Greed.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3417&page=2#ixzz1E904xmUS



They are trying to blame us all for this mess.

Of course they are, this is how they govern.

Go shopping, see its all your fault you borrowed and spent all that money you can not payback ya ya, we knew that.. So to make it even more harder on you, I'll pass a more stringent Bankruptcy law, and now your really *******!

DEBT SLAVE.

The banks will be protected from cyclical downturns of their own making.

[midwesterner (banned)]

Feb 16, 2011 12:34:03 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

ok

you don't have to answer the questions.....

but for others reading this thread.....

a sales tax is regressive....if you are consuming every nickel you make....and saving or investing none.....you are paying a higher percentage of your income to the tax.....even though the rich will buy the Cadillacs and BMW's and they will pay MORE in actual taxes.....they wont pay as much as a percentage of their income because they save or invest a part of every check

Think what you want as far as everything else....this is irrefutable.......and therefore it surprises me that this is your answer to solving the real estate tax problem......

Your also assuming a flat rate accross the board. Alcohol and cigeretes are not taxed the same as other items. States tax rates are different too. Your theory is flawed.

[djrick]

a sales tax is regressive....if you are consuming every nickel you make....and saving or investing none.....you are paying a higher percentage of your income to the tax.....even though the rich will buy the Cadillacs and BMW's and they will pay MORE in actual taxes.....they wont pay as much as a percentage of their income because they save or invest a part of every check

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=post&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1E92gNHV7

Very well said, easy to understand, thanks for posting this.

[Deleted]

Your also assuming a flat rate accross the board. Alcohol and cigeretes are not taxed the same as other items. States tax rates are different too. Your theory is flawed.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1E936GjyQ

huh?

Mid...i dont care if the rate is 2% or 20%

Unless they are checking incomes at the cash register....everyone will pay the same rate

I am not talking about individual products......

but even then......a guy making $ 10 bucks a hr buying a pack of cigs with a tax of $ 2 a pack on it, is paying a shitload more percentage wise then the executive making 200k a year. Yes, they both pay $ 2.00 a pack in tax....but the executive can afford it a lot more

you have to realize this....

[Deleted]

djrick

you are welcome....

[midwesterner (banned)]

Feb 16, 2011 12:47:31 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Your also assuming a flat rate accross the board. Alcohol and cigeretes are not taxed the same as other items. States tax rates are different too. Your theory is flawed.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1E936GjyQ

huh?

Mid...i dont care if the rate is 2% or 20%

Unless they are checking incomes at the cash register....everyone will pay the same rate

I am not talking about individual products......

but even then......a guy making $ 10 bucks a hr buying a pack of cigs with a tax of $ 2 a pack on it, is paying a shitload more percentage wise then the executive making 200k a year. Yes, they both pay $ 2.00 a pack in tax....but the executive can afford it a lot more

you have to realize this....

I know what your saying. Yes I do agree there will be no perfect system. But if you don't have to worry about your rent dues to the government for your existence in this nation, and your soon to come carbon footprint taxes for your right to live, then you could grow food if you were that poor. Farmers used to be norm, then they drove them off land with taxation.

Your supporting a banking system which is very corrupt, and very sinister. Corporatism is what's has and is destroying this nation. Think long ago, people didn't need as much cause they could provide for themselves. That option is not open very much to people even if they wanted to. Try buying some good farm land, and affording the taxes on it.

We are debt slaves, like it or not, your part of this system since you use debt notes for all your transactions. FACT. Until you can provide for yourself, or use sound money for transactions that has no interest attached to it, you are part of the debt enslavement system.

Where you stand in that system might be different for many. You may be a serf farming the land, a servant to the lord, or if lucky a knightly warrior class. Maybe your one of the masons, and have a trade, and can provide somewhat for yourself in the kingdom.

Nothing has changed, just the illusion of change. Banks and bankers have replaced the lords and Kings of old. Same system, just modern, with more technology, but concept is the same.

[Deleted]

lol

You going to grow food in the middle of DC, or Detroit

Urban area sprawl makes farming for most, impossible. Yes...there are neighborhood plots where people get together and grow vegetables...but those are the exception, not the rule.

Farming used to be the norm because people had space to use.....and used it for providing for their families. People that live in huge apartments complexes have little or no space. And although the basic garden plot helps and provides fresh herbs and vegetables....it provides very little as a percentage of food needed or consumed.

You rent....single family, duplex, or apartment complex?

If apartment complex....is there space provided for you to use to grow food?

Second part....most people do not have any skills related to working the land. You think you just drop in a few seeds, and viola.....crops? Not quite that easy if you want to get any reasonable yield for the land.....

And forget about livestock.....that brings in a whole different set of problems.

And not all farmers were not driven off their land with taxes.....a lot of farms broke up because the children NO longer wanted to work the land. So as the parents passed...they sold the land and moved to the city.....

Some may wish they hadnt.....now is the time to definitely own farmland.

[comokate]

Feb 15, 2011 21:59:27 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Kate

I agree with parts...and disagree with others

One of the major problems with pensions and social security is lifespans. They keep increasing. So the old model of someone working till 62 or 65, and then living for 10-12 years after that worked. People are living longer now.....instead of 10-12 years, the model now says 20-25 years and it is getting longer. Corporations were starting to go broke....legacy costs for retirees and insurance for health was killing them.

You call it greed...i call it survival. You cant stay in business under those circumstances....the rules had to change

You cant pay someone for 40-50 years. The numbers just wont work.....young man joins the military...does his 20 and RETIRES at ripe old age of 39-40...and draws a pension for next 45 years....i dont begrudge him one bit....but the rules need to change...and it needs to happen soon

I know the government workers are going to hate it.....

And the age for starting social security needs to go up to 68 minimum...and 70 would be even better

Actually, longevity in the US has been on the decline for several years. Being a health care provider , I/we have been hearing this from the CDC ( Center for Disease Control) for a while. I'll provide links in case anyone would like to read some statistical information and theories as to why it is happening. I'm also providing links to show that major corporations, unlike the health of Americans, has grown more robust than ever. In the past corporations were able to grow *and* provide a decent compensation for their employees. That is what brought the best workers in the world to US soil. The argument is made for the lavish pay of CEO's that they have to attract the best and brightest; we used to feel that way about the "common" worker as well.
I realize that "life isn't fair", however that is why we developed laws and a judicial system.
To simply say "life isn't fair", I turn that back around to the "10%" and say, why should the 90% of us be destroyed for their fun and profit? When the 90% wakes up and realizes this current system is rewarding very very few at the expense of the many, the changes will be swift and decisive.
***********************



"As these chronic illnesses continue to grow in the United States, we can expect to see more decreases in life expectancy. Some people even think that, for the first time in history, our children will have shorter life expectancies than their parents."
longevity.about.com/od/longevitystatsandnumbers/a/le_declines.htm

"In which countries do people live the longest? According to the CIA's World Fact Book, a little southeast Asian country called Macau takes the top spot, with citizens living an average of 84.36 years. The top ten countries with the highest average life expectancy for 2010 are as follows:

1. Macau
2. Andorra
3. Japan
4. Singapore
5. Hong Kong
6. Australia
7. Canada
8. France
9. Sweden
10. Switzerland

The United States, at 49, is sandwiched between Wallis and Futuna and Albania, interestingly enough. Zambia and Angola come in last – numbers 223 and 224 respectively, with average life expectancies of 38.63 and 38.2."

Read more at Suite101: 2010 Average Life Expectancy by Gender, Race and Country www.suite101.com/content/2010-life-expectancy-longevity-factors-and-the-latest-news-a284558#ixzz1E9S9tixp


medheadlines.com/2008/04/22/us-life-expectancy-shorter-for-many/
******************************************

Corporate Profits Were the Highest on Record Last Quarter
"The nation’s workers may be struggling, but American companies just had their best quarter ever."
www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/business/economy/24econ.html
****************************************
A High-Water Mark for Profits

"The work force may still be struggling, but corporate profits appear to be heading toward a record (nominal) high, according to a new analysis from Deutsche Bank’s economics research team.

Based on what can be inferred from corporate tax receipts to date, Deutsche Bank’s economists estimate that in the third quarter of 2010, corporate profits rose to $1.68 trillion at an annualized rate, higher than their previous peak in the third quarter of 2006 at $1.66 trillion.

Note: This indicator, as released by the government, is not adjusted for inflation. Depending on how you adjust for inflation — and there is no agreed-upon way to adjust corporate profits for price changes, since profits are derived from all over the world — corporate profits in the third quarter of 2006 would most likely be higher than those last quarter.

Still, corporate profits have been going gangbusters for a while. Since their cyclical low in the fourth quarter of 2008, profits have grown for six consecutive quarters at an annualized rate of 38 percent, which is the fastest six-quarter change in corporate profits in history, according to Deutsche Bank."'
economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/12/a-high-water-mark-for-profits/
*****************************************

"US corporate profits hit an all-time high last quarter of $1.66 trillion; the highest in more than 60 years. So, you'd think that this should mean more jobs opening up, right? Well, no.

According to Times, one of the reasons that profit is up so high is because companies are increasing productivity with less man power. They're are holding on to fewer employees and having them produce more.

Some economists are saying that although this kind of stimulation does increase overall growth, it is still not fast enough to reduce significantly the unemployment rate or to prevent a slide into deflation; the overall growth remains as an unimpressive 2.5%.

Another way to look at this story, is as just another piece of evidence, to what many people believe; that the number of middle-class Americans continues to diminish as the number of lower-class Americans continues to increase all while the upper-class Americans continue to get richer; a mixture for disaster...something has got to give. "

www.checkcity.com/Blog/post/2010/11/Corporate-Profits-Reach-All-Time-High---Yet-Still-No-Hiring.aspx

[Deleted]

List by the United Nations (2005-2010)
Male Life Expectancy
Female Life ExpectancyRank Country (State/territory) Life expectancy at birth (years)
Overall Life expectancy at birth (years)
Male Life expectancy at birth (years)
Female
1 Japan 82.6 78.0 86.1
2 Hong Kong 82.2 79.4 85.1
3 Iceland 81.8 80.2 83.3
4 Switzerland 81.7 79.0 84.2
5 Australia 81.2 78.9 83.6
6 Spain 80.9 77.7 84.2
7 Sweden 80.9 78.7 83.0
8 Israel 80.7 78.5 82.8
9 Macau 80.7 78.5 82.8
10 France (metropolitan) 80.7 77.1 84.1
11 Canada 80.7 78.3 82.9
12 Italy 80.5 77.5 83.5
13 New Zealand 80.2 78.2 82.2
13 Norway 80.2 77.8 82.5
15 Singapore 80.0 78.0 81.9
16 Austria 79.8 76.9 82.6
16 Netherlands 79.8 77.5 81.9
18 Martinique ( France) 79.5 76.5 82.3
18 Greece 79.5 77.1 81.9
20 Belgium 79.4 76.5 82.3
20 Malta 79.4 77.3 81.3
20 United Kingdom 79.4 77.2 81.6
20 Germany 79.4 76.5 82.1
20 U.S. Virgin Islands ( US) 79.4 75.5 83.3
25 Finland 79.3 76.1 82.4
26 Guadeloupe ( France) 79.2 76.0 82.2
27 Channel Islands ( Jersey and Guernsey) ( UK) 79.0 76.6 81.5
27 Cyprus 79.0 76.5 81.6
29 Ireland 78.9 76.5 81.3
30 Costa Rica 78.8 76.5 81.2
31 Puerto Rico ( US) 78.7 74.7 82.7
31 Luxembourg 78.7 75.7 81.6
31 United Arab Emirates 78.7 77.2 81.5
34 South Korea 78.6 75.0 82.2
34 Chile 78.6 75.5 81.5
36 Denmark 78.3 76.0 80.6
36 Cuba 78.3 76.2 80.4
36 United States 78.3 75.6 80.8
39 Portugal 78.1 75.0 81.2
40 Slovenia 77.9 74.1 81.5

I cutoff list at 40.....

This is current through 2010.....and as far as i know, the life expectancy continues to rise.








1
2
3
4

Population
Growth
Rate
Life
Expectancy
at Birth
GNP
per Capita
Access to
Safe
Water

average
annual
growth
rate %
years

$

% of
population


1980-98
1998
1998
1990-96

H 86 Canada 1.2 79 19,170 99
M 87 Costa Rica 2.4 77 2,770 92
M 88 Cuba 0.7 76 m 93
M 89 Dominican Republic 2.1 71 1,770 71
M 90 El Salvador 1.5 69 1,850 55
M 91 Guatemala 2.6 64 1,640 67
L 92 Haiti 2 54 410 28
M 93 Honduras 3 69 740 65
M 94 Jamaica 1 75 1,740 70
M 95 Mexico 1.9 72 3,840 83
L 96 Nicaragua 2.8 68 1,896 81
M 97 Panama 1.9 74 2,990 84
M 98 Puerto Rico 1 76 m 97
M 99 Trinidad and Tobago 1 73 4,520 82
H 100 United States 1 77 29,240


so in 1998 77 years......in 2010 78.3 looks like it is rising over that time span

[Deleted]

and although corporate profits were highest in sixty years....did you happen to look at what profits were for two years preceding 2010?

2008 and 2009 left a lot to be desired.....

i know my company just had a record year.....but i also know we lost a LOT in two previous years. Is the owner now required to give up those profits in the form of raises and hiring more people? He basically emptied his piggy bank staying alive in 2009....

common sense dictates that he replenish his cash reserves to weather the next downturn....and there is ALWAYS a next downturn

There are ALWAYS two sides to every story...and it is EASY to hate the corporations. What would you do in their position?

[sangria]

I've thought a lot gdgyva about your observations in post 54 about Social Security.

When you retire, your 401k turns into an IRA. You can take money out any way you want.

When you go to collect a pension, there are advisors that give you all the different scenarios on how you can collect it. How much a month if you take it over 10 years, how much a month if you want to leave some for a spouse, etc.

I'm wondering if we'll have to do Social Security the same way. When you are ready to collect Social Security, they can tell you to the penny how much you contributed in your working life. (No, it didn't earn any interest anywhere.) I suppose that is all we should be able to collect. That would make it easy. If you take so much a month, this is how many years it will last - if you take twice that, this is what happens, on and on.

I thought I read somewhere that the average person collects in Social Security what they contributed in something like 13 or 14 years. But of course, the checks keep on coming after that unless you get hit by a bus.

[comokate]

Life Expectancy Declines for American Women
Life expectancy for American women is declining for the first time since the Spanish influenza epidemic in 1918, according to study [pdf] published[April 22, 2008] by the Harvard School of Public Health and reported in the Washington Post.

environment.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=environment&cdn=newsissues&tm=89&f=00&su=p504.1.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/21/AR2008042102406.html%3Fsid%3DST2008042102630%26sub%3DAR


"Life expectancy in the U.S. has fallen slightly, according to a new government report.

The life expectancy for a baby born in 2008 is 77.8 years, down from 2007′s all-time-high of 77.9 years.

Life expectancy for Americans generally has increased steadily since 1975, but the numbers dipped in 1993 and again in 2005.

The report’s lead author, Arialdi Minino, characterized the decline as tiny, and said it would take years of data to determine if it is the start of a downward trend, the Associated Press reports.

On a happier note, the infant mortality rate fell from 6.75 infant deaths per 1,000 live births to 6.59, a drop Minino called “pretty significant,” HealthDay reports. Still, the mortality rate for black infants remained about twice that of whites.

The government figures showed that the gap in life expectancy between blacks and whites in the U.S. narrowed to 4.6 years. In 2008, the average lifespan edged down to 75.3 years for white men and to 80.3 for white women. For black women it remained unchanged at 76.8 years, while the average lifespan for black men hit a record high of 70.2 years.

For the first time in 50 years, chronic respiratory diseases like asthma and emphysema replaced stroke as the third-leading cause of death.

Nearly half of all deaths in the U.S. stemmed from heart disease and cancer, which remained the two leading killers.

Minino cautioned that the report was not designed to find the reasons for the mortality changes, and that the increase in deaths from chronic respiratory diseases could be related to revisions in the way some deaths are classified."

The report was released by the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
www.fairwarning.org/2010/12/after-years-of-edging-up-life-expectancy-in-the-u-s-dips-report-says/
****************************************

Please quote your sources. The decline in US longevity has been observed for a while now. Nearly all health care providers ( at least those requiring a degree/licensing in their profession) are aware of this. Would you like me to list more sources??

[comokate]

Feb 16, 2011 15:16:51 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

and although corporate profits were highest in sixty years....did you happen to look at what profits were for two years preceding 2010?

2008 and 2009 left a lot to be desired.....

i know my company just had a record year.....but i also know we lost a LOT in two previous years. Is the owner now required to give up those profits in the form of raises and hiring more people? He basically emptied his piggy bank staying alive in 2009....

common sense dictates that he replenish his cash reserves to weather the next downturn....and there is ALWAYS a next downturn

There are ALWAYS two sides to every story...and it is EASY to hate the corporations. What would you do in their position?

Is "your company" a mega-company with several CEO's having yearly compensation packages in the multi-millions? Those are the companies I refer to. It is fairly easy for an individual to incorporate their business, even those that simply operate a "poop-scooper" service...you cannot compare apples to oranges. As far as raiding his "piggy bank"...just how big of a piggy bank was it and what was the construction material ? ok, so we know it wasn't *really* a "piggy bank", however euphemisms/metaphors/colloquialisms can mask/alter the reality of a situation, (although they certainly make for passionate and colorful speech). I'm not referring to "mom and pop" corporations down the street, I'm referring to the enormous, multi-million/billion dollar, usually multi-national ( better to avoid accountability/transparency) corporations.

edited for spelling error

[Deleted]

Kate

So two different sets of information.....

Provided by two different organizations....

But i see the lines going up on your charts.....from like 73 (all races, both sexes) in 1975 to like 77 in 2008

4 yrs difference in 33 years actual time.....

What would 4 years of pensions cost a company?

Average 26k annual x 4 x number of employees retired.....26k annually is my guess but i think i am fairly close

And people wonder why pension programs had to change....

[midwesterner (banned)]

Feb 16, 2011 14:14:14 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

lol

You going to grow food in the middle of DC, or Detroit

Urban area sprawl makes farming for most, impossible. Yes...there are neighborhood plots where people get together and grow vegetables...but those are the exception, not the rule.

Farming used to be the norm because people had space to use.....and used it for providing for their families. People that live in huge apartments complexes have little or no space. And although the basic garden plot helps and provides fresh herbs and vegetables....it provides very little as a percentage of food needed or consumed.

You rent....single family, duplex, or apartment complex?

If apartment complex....is there space provided for you to use to grow food?

Second part....most people do not have any skills related to working the land. You think you just drop in a few seeds, and viola.....crops? Not quite that easy if you want to get any reasonable yield for the land.....

And forget about livestock.....that brings in a whole different set of problems.

And not all farmers were not driven off their land with taxes.....a lot of farms broke up because the children NO longer wanted to work the land. So as the parents passed...they sold the land and moved to the city.....

Some may wish they hadnt.....now is the time to definitely own farmland.

Mr. I love to twist words around. Doesn't even deserve a response considering how you are trying to insult my intelligence by somehow relating I'm thinking people should railroad Michigan ave in Chicago and set up a dairy farm.

Where's baby talk when you need it.

[Virgil Showlion]

4% growth along with cost cutting will do the job.

We need 5.5% growth if we do not cut.

Raise retirement age 12 to 18 months will go a long way to fixing SS.

We have done it before and we can do it again.

Perhaps some numbers from you, sir.

For instance, I exhort you to complete the following exercise: determine the cost savings for withholding SS payouts for one year, as well as the increase to US government revenues (assuming, optimistically, that every 66-year-old worker is able to find a job without displacing other workers). My own calculations come back with $3.48 trillion. Compared that to the $112 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

Granted, there's a bit of wiggle room in the term "long way" isn't there?

As for your "4% growth along with cost cutting", assuming 4% was the correct figure (it isn't) and that 4% sustained growth over two decades had some precedent (it doesn't), the problem seems to be that "cost cutting" leaves pensioners without pensions, government workers without jobs, war machines without funding, expensive healthcare and climate change initiatives without funding, and cost-cutting proponents without any votes during election time.

[Deleted]

Mr. I love to twist words around. Doesn't even deserve a response considering how you are trying to insult my intelligence by somehow relating I'm thinking people should railroad Michigan ave in Chicago and set up a dairy farm.

Where's baby talk when you need it

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1E9oO9jvv

Mid

And you wonder why you are attacked by other posters....

I will again take the high road....

You may want to reread what you posted above...and then see why i responded the way i did

Nothing derogatory...no bashing....just a civil response

[verrip1]

The solution to recent retirees retirement shortfalls is for them to use their God-given abilities to increase their net worth.

I foresee cadres of well trained and well armed boomers identifying young gold and silver hoarders and forcibly liberating their treasure troves for The People! Intellect and arms will readily overcome angst-ridden geeks held up in basements.



I love it when a plan comes together.

[midwesterner (banned)]

lol

You going to grow food in the middle of DC, or Detroit

"Laugh out loud" directly at me, hmmm, not insulting??? Suggesting I set up farming downtown Detroit as if I'm some 3rd grader without any basic understand?? Not insulting???


Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1E9rMkOky

Mid

And you wonder why you are attacked by other posters....

I will again take the high road....

You may want to reread what you posted above...and then see why i responded the way i did

Nothing derogatory...no bashing....just a civil response

So no bashing or derogatory. How about round about way to get a personal dig in and then claim your a wonderful person because you didn't insult me, but we all can see through petty games, and taking the high road BS games.

Just pointing out the obvious to you, don't act all high and mighty, holier than thou.

Have a good one friend.

[sangria]

"Hand over the gold eagles punk."










"I don't want to die, but if I have to die, I'm gonna die last."

Al Capone

[Deleted]

I know what your saying. Yes I do agree there will be no perfect system. But if you don't have to worry about your rent dues to the government for your existence in this nation, and your soon to come carbon footprint taxes for your right to live, then you could grow food if you were that poor. Farmers used to be norm, then they drove them off land with taxation.



Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1E9twSNQy

Are these your words?

Did you just mean some people could farm?

I pointed out the flaws to what you said....and yes i thought the idea of tenement farming in a big city seemed a bit ridiculous

If you dont want rebuttal...dont post....your solutions have more holes in them than a block of swiss cheese.....if you want to hate the system, fine.....but common sense is a requirement for not having your posts shot all to hell.....

THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS MAKING

And again...with the sales tax you are siding with the ELITES which i also thought was hilarious

[Virgil Showlion]

and yes i thought the idea of tenement farming in a big city seemed a bit ridiculous

Not as ridiculous as it once might have been.

The price of food has risen (and the price of real estate fallen) to the point where vertical farming initiatives are becoming profitable. If I may insert a shameless plug for a distant associate: inhabitat.com/gordon-graffs-skyfarm-for-toronto/

Mid, read your inbox before you reply to #81. I don't want nuclear Mid going off.

[Deleted]

Kate

Without going into too much detail

Sales exceeded 50 million

Employees approx 200

This ought to be interesting....

What amount for an executive is EXCESSIVE? 40 x average pay 100 x average pay

Less?

Where do you draw the line? Now is that toal compensation? Just salary and benefits? Does it include stock option programs?

How do YOU propose compensating executives for jobs that exceed expectations? Or do you compensate them for exceeding what they are supposed to achieve?

I am pro business...anyone who reads my posting knows that. I also have a small idea on how hard it is to RUN a large corporation. There is a reason for most compensation plans....and most CEO's are not your average Joe. Should anyone make 100 million in a year...probably not....just like should an actress be paid 30 million for six weeks work on a movie? probably not....

Just like in a grocery store or in an electronics store....MOST of the time, you get what you pay for. Quality costs more...and it is a world of supply and demand.

[Deleted]

Virgil

Agreed...but a VERY small percentage now....

Maybe those who work these can become profitable....in some cities where the prices have been drastically reduced

But all cities...it just is not going to happen. Real estate is much too valuable

[comokate]

Feb 16, 2011 15:38:20 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

Kate

So two different sets of information.....

Provided by two different organizations....

But i see the lines going up on your charts.....from like 73 (all races, both sexes) in 1975 to like 77 in 2008

4 yrs difference in 33 years actual time.....

What would 4 years of pensions cost a company?

Average 26k annual x 4 x number of employees retired.....26k is my guess but i think i am fairly close

And people wonder why pension programs had to change....

Do you think many will cry a river of tears that instead of 300-500 times the average workers salary, CEO's/owners make 10-15 times ? ( as they used to do and is still the case in places like Japan/Germany). You like to talk about numbers....just think of those extra millions going into pension dollars ( as they used to) instead of extra vacation homes for the CEO's.
It used to be disgraceful to run a company into the ground causing others to suffer. It's been increasingly rewarded the last few decades. Even for the greedy, they have to remember, if they destroy the workers below, there is no longer a pyramid to sit atop.
Do you have any idea how much it costs a society ( or , *your* city ) when Jane and Joe taxpayer end up footing the bill for the working poor/seniors for social services? ( some suggest cutting all social services and...letting people die in the streets I suppose).
Ever read the reports on how much a company like Wal-Mart actually *costs* a city when they move into town?
Short term gain for the few, while giving long term ( and usually permanent) pain for the many does not seem sound to me...but of course, I'm in the 90%....

[Virgil Showlion]

Maybe those who work these can become profitable....in some cities where the prices have been drastically reduced

I think our collective hope is that food prices don't climb so high and property values don't drop so low that widespread VF initiatives are needed.

Much of the VF business plan is based on hyped-up UN predictions for population growth thru to 2050. At the rates famine, disease, western population die-off, and war are occurring, their growth models are already looking like they've overshot the mark.

[midwesterner (banned)]

Are these your words?

Did you just mean some people could farm?

I pointed out the flaws to what you said....and yes i thought the idea of tenement farming in a big city seemed a bit ridiculous

If you dont want rebuttal...dont post....your solutions have more holes in them than a block of swiss cheese.....if you want to hate the system, fine.....but common sense is a requirement for not having your posts shot all to hell.....

THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS MAKING

And again...with the sales tax you are siding with the ELITES which i also thought was hilarious

In the 1980's remember a thing called farm aid?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_Aid

Farm Aid started as a benefit concert on September 22, 1985, in Champaign, Illinois, held to raise money for family farmers in the United States. The concert was organized by Willie Nelson, John Mellencamp and Neil Young, spurred on by Bob Dylan's comments at Live Aid earlier in that year. (Dylan said, "I hope that some of the money...maybe they can just take a little bit of it, maybe...one or two million, maybe...and use it, say, to pay the mortgages on some of the farms and, the farmers here, owe to the banks....") Nelson and Mellencamp then brought family farmers before Congress to testify about the state of family farming in America. Congress subsequently passed the Agricultural Credit Act of 1987 to help save family farms from foreclosure.

Big mega farms came in and wiped out the small guy. Large seed companies and fertilizers companies plus over taxation on family farms drove people out of smaller towns into urban areas, and made them more reliant on the system. This was their way of life, many enjoyed it, some thought it to be simple, and had done so without problems for years. These policies and mega corporations made this dream die out.

Many had no choice, but to sell and move to where there was work. I don't believe this is progress, it's a loss of independence and a dream of making it on your own. Small farms did a find job of supplying not hybrid crops and worked just fine.

In 1930's many still farmed, and were did not rely on corporate farming for food, so still many went hungry, but could grow own food to help feed their families. No more, if we enter into this next depression, there is little safety net for people as far as food goes. The corporations own most the good farm land.

About sales tax, why do you think the elites are in favor of this?? Your idea of elites and mine are way off. Multimillionaires are not elites, they are wealthy, elites are in the billion and trillion category. I truly believe a sales tax would work just fine, and tariffs on foreign goods being dumped using slave third world labor at cheaper prices would be best for our nation to recover and create growth. You could also have corporate and small business taxation so long as it was not a high rate to encourage growth and job creation. If we were to have an income tax, which I'm not completely opposed to, it would have to be fair and not favoring the rich.

Bottom line is the less the government taxes us on cost of living like income and property, the more we have to spend on goods and services, which will still be taxed when bought and sold. Housing goes down, wages will rise, and velocity of money will travel in the bottom sector of the economy more. You will create more opportunity for small guy to start business, and more comfortable life for average citizen.

It is my belief we don't need mega banks or corporations and if we do it should be for the greater good of the people, with a 7 year charter like before. They should also not have same rights as a person. Too much wealth concentrated in two few hands always gets get out of hand.

[Deleted]

Do you think many will cry a river of tears that instead of 300-500 times the average workers salary, CEO's/owners make 10-15 times ? ( as they used to do and is still the case in places like Japan/Germany).

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=moneytalk&thread=3417&page=3#ixzz1EA3XDnVh


You do realize these are the exceptions...not the rule

Mechanical Engineer $71,961
Mechanical Design Engineer $63,879
Electrical Engineer $71,875
Project Manager, Information Technology (IT) $92,195
Senior Mechanical Engineer $97,937
Six Sigma Black Belt Project Manager $87,089
Finance Manager $90,551

These are the average pay for GE employees....according to payscale.com

Jeffrey R. Immelt, Chairman of the Board and CEO

Total compensation

2009 $ 9,885,240
2008 9,280,935
2007 14,287,557

The 300 million compensations do occur...and they in my opinion, should not happen

But i also see no issue with compensation exceeding 25million for jobs well done

Now...this example....Immelt is NOT the best CEO by any stretch....but he does run one of the largest conglomerates in the world....

[wyouser]

Where is VL. He posted some thoughts on the old msn boards regarding urban farming. Really not aso far fetched. May need to relax a few rules about what kinds of animals one can have inside city limits. Really never in human history has a food disribution and growing system like ours existed. This only works as long as energy is CHEAP. We may be nearing a point where locally grown produce and food products are feasable again

[Deleted]

Mid

Good post....dont agree with all, but good post

Self reliance is a dream for most now. Too many live in the urban settings....or even suburbs. Back in the 30's a great deal of our population still lived in rural areas......no longer the case

Instead of your sales tax which hits the poor harder than the rich....i like the flat tax system

0- 40k 10%
40-60k 13%
60-90k 18%
90-150k 22%
150-300k 25%
300k + 30%

No deductions...period

Everyone pays their fair share.....doesnt matter if you have zero kids, or 12....doesnt matter if married or not....

Does not matter how the money was earned....there is no difference between self employed, w2, capital gains, or dividend income

The only things not taxed are social security benefits if total income is under 50k...and there is a flat 20% tax on ALL inheritances (with a 1,000,000 minimum)

States can exempt what they want...no exemptions for federal tax