Texas Abortion Bill

[cereb]

Jul 3, 2013 16:07:09 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Pro death leftists keeping it classy..

"I hope your daughter is raped"

hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2013/07/02/i-hope-your-daughters-raped/

whackadoodle websites keeping it truthful.


Not.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 3, 2013 18:09:59 GMT -5 cereb said:

Jul 3, 2013 16:07:09 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Pro death leftists keeping it classy..

"I hope your daughter is raped"

hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2013/07/02/i-hope-your-daughters-raped/

whackadoodle websites keeping it truthful.


Not.

Oh, I didn't realize you wanted to dispute the facts and back it up with a source of your own.  I eagerly await your edit which includes a link to back up the accusation. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 3, 2013 17:28:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jul 3, 2013 14:37:34 GMT -5 steff said:

But it will already be too late for hundreds, possibly thousands of Texas women.  These clinics will close & health care for poor women will vanish long before this is overturned in the courts. 

The women who need affordable health care the MOST are the ones who are going to be hurt the MOST. And Republicans in Texas have clearly stated they don't care. 

they don't care about women.  i am presuming that most will remember that in November 2014.

And the women who didn't kill their babies, but are struggling to feed them will be hurt most when prices go up at Wal-Mart due to do DC's "living wage" requirement.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 3, 2013 16:24:34 GMT -5 steff said:

Paul,

Until you do your research on this issue & understand that is is NOT about late term abortions, then I have no reason to discuss this issue with you.  

House Bill 2 would ban abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, require that the procedure be performed at ambulatory surgical centers, mandate that doctors who perform abortions obtain admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles and that even nonsurgical abortions take place in a surgical center.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/texas-abortion-law_n_3538347.html

My mom has been a nurse in an outpatient surgical center for years.  These are the same requirements for most- if not all outpatient surgical centers. However, if you insist- then the same deregulated market that applies to abortion should be applied to every other outpatient service.  I'll go with you on that.  I generally favor de-regulation.

However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require a woman to make her "decision" in the first half of pregnancy.  

[cereb]

Jul 3, 2013 18:31:13 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 3, 2013 18:09:59 GMT -5 cereb said:

whackadoodle websites keeping it truthful.


Not.

Oh, I didn't realize you wanted to dispute the facts and back it up with a source of your own.  I eagerly await your edit which includes a link to back up the accusation. 

Hold your breath, I'll be back in an hour or two.

[cereb]

Jul 3, 2013 18:38:45 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 3, 2013 16:24:34 GMT -5 steff said:

Paul,

Until you do your research on this issue & understand that is is NOT about late term abortions, then I have no reason to discuss this issue with you.  

House Bill 2 would ban abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, require that the procedure be performed at ambulatory surgical centers, mandate that doctors who perform abortions obtain admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles and that even nonsurgical abortions take place in a surgical center.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/texas-abortion-law_n_3538347.html

My mom has been a nurse in an outpatient surgical center for years.  These are the same requirements for most- if not all outpatient surgical centers. However, if you insist- then the same deregulated market that applies to abortion should be applied to every other outpatient service.  I'll go with you on that.  I generally favor de-regulation.

However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require a woman to make her "decision" in the first half of pregnancy.  

This has nothing to do with late term abortions and everything to do with the portion in bold.  Try to keep up.

[zibazinski]

I still don't see the issue with making sure the places are clean, sterile, and are close to a hospital in case something goes wrong.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jul 4, 2013 9:27:09 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I still don't see the issue with making sure the places are clean, sterile, and are close to a hospital in case something goes wrong.

The abortion industry has been protected from regulation or scrutiny by pro-choice law makers since Roe v. Wade.  Abortion is the highest sacrament of the liberal religion, it cannot be regulated, interfered with, or in any way scrutinized.

[zibazinski]

I happen to be pro choice but in the case of late term, I'd only go along with it if something was wrong with the baby. If you can't make up your mind about having a baby until its that far along, then have the baby. Your mind is really already made up.

[Deleted]

We need to develop earlier testing for genetic disorders if the date for late term is moved to 20 weeks...( Which logistically could only be mid term)... Very few abortions take place after 18 weeks, but as long as amino, etc are at 22 weeks, there will be some later abortions. 

Also there still needs to be a mother's health exception.

As said before zib, clean and sterile is fine. Surgical center is a whole other thing.

Las far as near a hospital... We rent all located near one. Agin poor and ural are disproportionately impacted...

[zibazinski]

I suppose so but shouldn't the poor be also taken care of someplace close to a hospital? I think I grew up with too many fears and stories about back alley abortions to think clearly on this subject. My own aunt had one procured by my father back in the fifties by a desperately poor black male intern because he was the only one who would take a chance, a very REAL chance, and needed the money so desperately. I'm not even sure my mom and dad were married then but just dating. My aunt was flown to Chicago and had it. That's how she was able to escape her abusive first marriage, by becoming child free. But she never got over the guilt and therefore is married to an emotionally abusive man as her "penance" for her crime.

[Deleted]

But clinic abortions aren't back alley... They ARE clean and safe. 

[zibazinski]

Are they? Are you sure? Plus, what if something goes wrong? Being close to a hospital is a very good thing. I had my son in a ghetto located hospital. Why? Because the nice hospital had no facilities for if anything major went wrong. If it did, baby/and or mother had to be transported to bad area hospital. As opposed to just going down the hall where all the state of the art stuff was located. When seconds count, I didn't want to be minutes away from help.

[Deleted]

Yes, I'm sure. Women do not die from clinic abortion. They are safe procedures completed in a safe environment. 

Impediments to legal, safe abortion, which the Texas bill would induce, are what would make abortion less safe. If people couldn't get to and afford a large surgical center, and couldn't get to a clinic, they'd opt for less safe measures...

im not much for wiki, but this is well researched,and you can access the source info, some of which I tagged separately...

Unsafe abortions are a major cause of injury and death among women worldwide. Although data are imprecise, it is estimated that approximately 20 million unsafe abortions are performed annually, with 97% taking place in developing countries.[1] Unsafe abortion is believed to result in millions of injuries and approximately 68,000 deaths annually,[1][68] accounting for 13% of all maternal deaths.[69] Groups such as the World Health Organization have advocated a public-health approach to addressing unsafe abortion, emphasizing the legalization of abortion, the training of medical personnel, and ensuring access to reproductive-health services.[70]
The legality of abortion is one of the main determinants of its safety. Countries with restrictive abortion laws have significantly higher rates of unsafe abortion (and similar overall abortion rates) compared to those where abortion is legal and available.[2][3][70][71][72][73] For example, the 1996 legalization of abortion in South Africa had an immediate positive impact on the frequency of abortion-related complications,[74] with abortion-related deaths dropping by more than 90%.[75] In addition, a lack of access to effective contraception contributes to unsafe abortion. It has been estimated that the incidence of unsafe abortion could be reduced by up to 75% (from 20 million to 5 million annually) if modern family planning and maternal health services were readily available globally.[76]
Forty percent of the world's women are able to access therapeutic and elective abortions within gestational limits,[5] while an additional 35 percent have access to legal abortion if they meet certain physical, mental, or socioeconomic criteria.[77] While maternal mortality seldom results from safe abortions, unsafe abortions result in 70,000 deaths and 5 million disabilities per year.[2] Complications of unsafe abortion account for approximately an eighth of maternal mortalities worldwide,[78] though this varies by region.[79] Secondary infertility caused by an unsafe abortion affects an estimated 24 million women.[72] The rate of unsafe abortions has increased from 44% to 49% between 1995 and 2008.[3] Health education, access to family planning, and improvements in health care during and after abortion have been proposed to address this phenomenon.[80]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Unsafe_abortion
whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2007/9789241596121_eng.pdf
www.rhm-elsevier.com/article/S0968-8080(04)24024-1/abstract

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17933648
An estimated 42 million abortions were induced in 2003, compared with 46 million in 1995. The induced abortion rate in 2003 was 29 per 1000 women aged 15-44 years, down from 35 in 1995. Abortion rates were lowest in western Europe (12 per 1000 women). Rates were 17 per 1000 women in northern Europe, 18 per 1000 women in southern Europe, and 21 per 1000 women in northern America (USA and Canada). In 2003, 48% of all abortions worldwide were unsafe, and more than 97% of all unsafe abortions were in developing countries. There were 31 abortions for every 100 livebirths worldwide in 2003, and this ratio was highest in eastern Europe (105 for every 100 livebirths).

[steff]

Again, watching the hearings covered all of these things.

#1 Abortion clinics in Texas are inspected EVERY year.  Doctors offices, Dentist offices, & outpatient surgery clinics are inspected every THREE years.

#2 Rural Texas doesn't even have hospitals within 30 minutes of the clinics.  In certain parts of Texas, the nearest hospital is over an hour away.  In some cases 2 hours away. 

#3 Doctors offices & Dentists offices, where "surgery" such as vasectomies & oral surgery are NOT required to meet "surgical care" standards in Texas. 

#4 In many rural areas, the hospitals are religious based ones & they won't even tie a woman's tubes, much less admit a doctor who is going to perform abortions. 

#5 late term abortions are already banned.  They do NOT apply to this bill


This bill is about closing clinics that rural/poor women have access to.  A woman from El Paso would have to drive to San Antonio for care.  A woman from the border areas would have to drive to Houston for care.   for a poor woman, this is often impossible for them to do. 

[tallguy]

This is all about denying access, with the hope that it will cut abortion to near zero.  Absolutely not.  All it will do is force poorer women back into the dark days of history. 

Abortion should be legal, safe, and rare.  Cutting access will not make it rare.  It WILL make it unsafe.  

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2013 18:32:34 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 3, 2013 17:28:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

they don't care about women.  i am presuming that most will remember that in November 2014.

And the women who didn't kill their babies, but are struggling to feed them will be hurt most when prices go up at Wal-Mart due to do DC's "living wage" requirement.

i see.  so wages in DC are going to impact prices in Austin.  gotcha.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 3, 2013 18:38:45 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Jul 3, 2013 16:24:34 GMT -5 steff said:

Paul,

Until you do your research on this issue & understand that is is NOT about late term abortions, then I have no reason to discuss this issue with you.  

House Bill 2 would ban abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy, require that the procedure be performed at ambulatory surgical centers, mandate that doctors who perform abortions obtain admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles and that even nonsurgical abortions take place in a surgical center.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/texas-abortion-law_n_3538347.html

My mom has been a nurse in an outpatient surgical center for years.  These are the same requirements for most- if not all outpatient surgical centers. However, if you insist- then the same deregulated market that applies to abortion should be applied to every other outpatient service.  I'll go with you on that.  I generally favor de-regulation.

However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to require a woman to make her "decision" in the first half of pregnancy.  

it would have been nice if the bill had excluded the 80% of abortions that are non-surgical.  it didn't.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 4, 2013 9:27:09 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I still don't see the issue with making sure the places are clean, sterile, and are close to a hospital in case something goes wrong.

can you show that they are not clean and sterile?

[djAdvocate]

Jul 4, 2013 10:39:37 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Are they? Are you sure?

um.....all medical centers require health inspections.  so yeah, i think we can say that.

[zibazinski]

So? All food places are inspected as well. They aren't clean, either.

[Deleted]

By that logic who is to say a surgical center is actually clean?

[Deleted]

When I lived in Texas I couldn't even find a Dr. To tie my tubes. They would fix my husband (military) but not me. Texas is overly ruled by religious beliefs IMHO.

[steff]

Jul 4, 2013 22:12:37 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

So? All food places are inspected as well. They aren't clean, either.

Again, all abortion clinics are inspected EVERY year & it's a surprise inspection.  Doctor's offices that perform vasectomies & dentist's office that perform oral surgery & clinics that perform outpatient surgeries are inspected every THREE years & they are informed that their inspection is upcoming.  They are also NOT required to meet surgical standards and will NOT be required to with this bill. ONLY abortion clinics are required to meet surgical standards. 

Texas already has above standard inspection policies in place for all abortion clinics. 

[zibazinski]

Well, they ALL should be inspected at least yearly and they all should be surprised.

[tallguy]

Jul 5, 2013 6:40:00 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well, they ALL should be inspected at least yearly and they all should be surprised.

Granted, although one argument may be that they don't have the budget to even do as little as they are doing now, I don't know.  What IS very likely true as far as the difference is concerned is that they want to keep the other places OPEN.  They want to have facilities that do abortions CLOSED.

Again, this bill is all about denying access.  It is not about women's health.  It will HURT women's health, especially poorer, more rural women.  But then, they are considered pretty much disposable already, aren't they?

So, given the fact that the facilities as is are suitable for the purpose, what is your objection going to be now?

[zibazinski]

Hey, I'm pro choice and that choice includes abortion. In certain circumstances, I'd have one, too. But I'd want to make very sure the places are clean and sterile and that if something goes wrong, there's a back up plan. That doesn't make me anti-woman or anti-abortion.  I don't see this as being anti-abortion but others do and that's fine. They are closer to the subject than I am.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

The vast majority of people that describe themselves as 'pro-choice' support this kind of regulation, and they oppose late term abortion.  The reason you have the whackadoos out in support of Wendy Davis is because she is an extremist on this issue, and late term abortion, and unregulated abortion mill supporters are a fringe element.

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/02/kirsten-powers-i-don-t-stand-with-wendy-davis.html

I Don’t Stand With Wendy Davis
by Kirsten Powers Jul 2, 2013 4:45 AM EDT

Stand with the pink-sneakered Texas legislator and her fight to allow mothers to abort babies past the 20th week of pregnancy? Never—and most women wouldn’t either, says Kirsten Powers.

It’s amazing what is considered heroism these days.

A Texas legislator and her pink sneakers have been lionized for an eleventh-hour filibuster against a bill that would have made it illegal for mothers to abort babies past 20 weeks of pregnancy, except in the case of severe fetal abnormalities or to protect the life or health of the mother.

People actually cheered this.

But the fight is not over. The bill will be reintroduced, and supporters of the ban are optimistic it will pass. For now, Wendy Davis has achieved the dubious victory of maintaining a very dark status quo. Texas women will still be able to abort a healthy baby up to the 26th week of pregnancy for any reason, as the current law allows.

According to the Parents Connect website, if you are in the 25th week of your pregnancy, “Get ready for pat-a-cake! Baby’s hands are now fully developed and he spends most of his awake time groping around in the darkness of your uterus. Brain and nerve endings are developed enough now so that your baby can feel the sensation of touch.” Let’s be clear: Davis has been called a hero for trying to block a bill that would make aborting this baby illegal.

In addition to the limit on late-term abortions, the Texas legislature sought to pass regulations on abortion clinics similar to what was passed in Pennsylvania in 2011 after the Gosnell horror. The New York Times warned that the Texas bill “could lead to the closing of most of Texas’s 42 abortion clinics.” That sounds familiar. In 2011, the Pennsylvania ACLU claimed a post-Gosnell bill “would effectively close most and maybe all of the independent abortion clinics in Pennsylvania.” Last month, a Pennsylvania news site reported that “several” abortion clinics have closed, which isn’t quite the Armageddon the abortion-rights movement predicted.

So no, I don’t stand with Wendy. Nor do most women, as it turns out. According to a June National Journal poll, 50 percent of women support, and 43 percent oppose, a ban on abortion after 20 weeks, except in cases of rape and incest.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 5, 2013 10:31:07 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

The vast majority of people that describe themselves as 'pro-choice' support this kind of regulation, and they oppose late term abortion.  The reason you have the whackadoos out in support of Wendy Davis is because she is an extremist on this issue, and late term abortion, and unregulated abortion mill supporters are a fringe element.

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/02/kirsten-powers-i-don-t-stand-with-wendy-davis.html

I Don’t Stand With Wendy Davis
by Kirsten Powers Jul 2, 2013 4:45 AM EDT

Stand with the pink-sneakered Texas legislator and her fight to allow mothers to abort babies past the 20th week of pregnancy? Never—and most women wouldn’t either, says Kirsten Powers.

It’s amazing what is considered heroism these days.

A Texas legislator and her pink sneakers have been lionized for an eleventh-hour filibuster against a bill that would have made it illegal for mothers to abort babies past 20 weeks of pregnancy, except in the case of severe fetal abnormalities or to protect the life or health of the mother.

People actually cheered this.

But the fight is not over. The bill will be reintroduced, and supporters of the ban are optimistic it will pass. For now, Wendy Davis has achieved the dubious victory of maintaining a very dark status quo. Texas women will still be able to abort a healthy baby up to the 26th week of pregnancy for any reason, as the current law allows.

According to the Parents Connect website, if you are in the 25th week of your pregnancy, “Get ready for pat-a-cake! Baby’s hands are now fully developed and he spends most of his awake time groping around in the darkness of your uterus. Brain and nerve endings are developed enough now so that your baby can feel the sensation of touch.” Let’s be clear: Davis has been called a hero for trying to block a bill that would make aborting this baby illegal.

In addition to the limit on late-term abortions, the Texas legislature sought to pass regulations on abortion clinics similar to what was passed in Pennsylvania in 2011 after the Gosnell horror. The New York Times warned that the Texas bill “could lead to the closing of most of Texas’s 42 abortion clinics.” That sounds familiar. In 2011, the Pennsylvania ACLU claimed a post-Gosnell bill “would effectively close most and maybe all of the independent abortion clinics in Pennsylvania.” Last month, a Pennsylvania news site reported that “several” abortion clinics have closed, which isn’t quite the Armageddon the abortion-rights movement predicted.

So no, I don’t stand with Wendy. Nor do most women, as it turns out. According to a June National Journal poll, 50 percent of women support, and 43 percent oppose, a ban on abortion after 20 weeks, except in cases of rape and incest.

i am not sure how much of the debate has to do with 20 weeks.  it probably has more to do with shutting down 80% of the states abortion clinics.  just guessing.

[djAdvocate]

Jul 4, 2013 22:12:37 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

So? All food places are inspected as well.

no they aren't.  most food places are inspected very irregularly, if at all.

They aren't clean, either.

duh.  and you really think that medical centers are held to that standard.  yhgtbk.