bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:47:37 GMT -5
schrizoMessage #1069 - 06/24/09 06:18 PMIt is scary to think these locked up factories could be used to build tanks and bombs. Everyone gets to go back to work, men on the battlefield and women in the production lines. Then after we destroy a country we can rebuild it. Everyone wins. Not.
jacknanniesdadMessage #1070 - 06/24/09 06:37 PMIts great to see a level head voice what many feel. These doom and gloomers have never seen a depression - take away some of their toys or bring their investments back to reality and the "sky is falling!!. we are in the midst of a LONG OVERDUE adjustment. Its painful and really affects those who can least afford it but, hopefully, we will begin to see some concrete improvement by the end of this year. My IRA lost 45% in about three months. Retirement isn't looking so likely just now, but we'll keep on keepin' on.
angelqueekMessage #1071 - 06/24/09 07:03 PMWe have got a long, long way down to the bottom. I don't think there will be any concrete improvement at all, even years from now. This economy will never recover to what it once was, because it was all fake. It really never was where people were led to believe it was. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and the middle class disappears and joins the poor. That's where we are headed, if you look at all the data.
reverendbarbMessage #1072 - 06/24/09 07:29 PMHate to say it, but I agree with angelqueek.  The future just doesn't look very rosy at all right now.
Greg GDMessage #1073 - 06/24/09 07:37 PMYou talk of a really bad future for us. We have been thru down turns like this before, unless you are very young. It is harmful to many,but we are a free market and markets go up "and" down. This will pass like all the others. Those who think the world is coming apart and act accordingly will sell to early or too late. If you able, the best is to just ride it out and eventually it will go back to our typical growth patern.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1074 - 06/24/09 07:48 PMWe have been thru down turns like this before, Huh??? Are you over 89? Because for you to make a statement like that you would have to be. The last time anything came close to what is going on now was in 1930!
Waradmiral44Message #1075 - 06/24/09 08:06 PMLMAO. The cheerleaders are out. Lost decade anyone? Think we did better or worse than Japan? Here's the rub, Santas and cheerleaders. It took us nearly 10 years to dig this hole, we've piled on a huge debt load with the greatest debt load by hundreds of percent coming due in SS. How does 60 trillion sound? Anyone that thinks this is a recession and it will go away in Q3 this year or next, needs a shrink. A big dose of reality coming your way. Some folks just slow learners despite all that vast knowledge acquired in your econ 101 class.
dr pumaMessage #1077 - 07/02/09 08:04 AMYes. big Depression II is underway and getting more so. The trend is definitely down and only the feeble-minded see a happy upturn coming. Fact is, there is nothing to upturn with and, no doubt, a bartering economy is already growing all around us and also a growing black market, I'm sure. Property crimes are increasing, so I read, and I also read that law enforcement is not applied in certain areas because governments cannot afford the cost of arrests, prosecutions and incarcerations. Those who face a marginal existence for years to come are indeed shocked by the failure of the government to meet the needs in positive ways, including punishments for those who caused or otherwise allowed greed and politics to over-rule both common sense and fairplay for all. World opinion was already against us before this latest debacle and we cannot make a case that America is better when our leaders continue to act like those whom we once condemned in other countries. I speak of our own social elite with their own agendas and concerns and how there is no big outpouring of real help for the ever-growing suffering masses. Obviously, if people had money again, then things would improve rather quickly. But instead of five or ten thousand dollars per family, to be spent within six months, and only on America made products, they receive only a few hundred dollars and somenow that is supposed to really help with our national recovery. What a sad joke. I see no great national political or economic leader thumping for the downtrodden. I see nothing coming out of Washington DC in the way of great inspiration and concrete programs which might infuse the entire nation. There is no longer even a sense of national emergency. No big call to arms. No siren call. No nothing. Just dead banking and other games. Someone is running the show for the rich and powerful, that is clear, but nobody is really talking to the rest of society. Not even the media are bothering to sympathize with the plight of the growing poor masses, let alone campaigning for anything, except to tell us the good times are just around the corner and we should all wait it out happily because, well, things go up and things go down, and we get through it. Can anyone define what getting through it means? Do they mean if you're still breathing when the dust settles that you made it through? Big deal. And never mind those who are destroyed in so many other ways or end up scarred for life or that the elderly already constituted the second highest category of suicides and long before this economic calamity hit. I wonder if anyone is keeping track of suicide trends among the elderly and especially the poor elderly? Or are they playing games with that too? Perhaps blaming their deaths on something less honest that the simple facts or truth would dare to reveal? Not only are we in a depression, but we are failing to take a full accounting of its total consequences: recent past, present and future. Maybe the time is here to say, "It's worse than you think, it's bigger than you think, and it hurts more than you think." And it will certainly last much longer than many think.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1078 - 07/02/09 12:05 PMNot even the media are bothering to sympathize with the plight of the growing poor masses, let alone campaigning for anything, except to tell us the good times are just around the corner and we should all wait it out happily because, well, things go up and things go down, and we get through it. And here lies the problem- The Media and the government are now controlled by the Elitist ( The Club as Decoy calls them) and they are not reporting the toll on the American people. People don't see what is going on nationwide because the mainstream media is not showing it. Those that do attempt to tell the truth suddenly disappear - ( Case in point - Jim Jubak). As the unemployment runs out we will see more tent cities springing up in major cities across the US but little will be shown on TV. Our government is now under total control of these bums and yet the American people do not see it.
bb_123Message #1080 - 07/03/09 12:04 AMI lost my job in North Carolina the third week in May ( I have worked for thirty years and have never filed for unemployment) but at my Husband's urging I filed for unemployment and now, 5 weeks later, still haven't heard anything. When I call the ESC at the number they provided the phone just rings busy. I e-mailed them and received a repsonse stating "... due to a high level of e-mails it will take several days" for my e-mail to be read. One week later I still have no e-mail response to my claim. How does one get to a tent city?
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:48:29 GMT -5
outaheresoonMessage #1081 - 07/03/09 03:22 AM"Annual crop fields have been fallowed, tree orchards have been plowed under, and those that remain are being given the bare minimum of water," Feinstein said in her letter. This is actually true. The part that is not being told is that there is not really a drought. The reason there is no water is that a Federal Judge turned off the pumps in the Sacramento Delta because some smelt were getting sucked into the pumps. So instead of putting screens on the intakes, they shut off our water supply. Don't people see that this entire world economy is being manipulated by the elite in order to bring about a global government and currency as a solution. The Fed has tightened the money supply in order to make everyone go broke. The wall street bankers have stolen all of our retirement money and put the taxpayer on the hook for all of the bailout funds. State governments are all going broke and the only solution they can come up with is to raise taxes. We are screwed, folks and that is the plain and simple truth. The most we can hope for is that people rebel and we throw out the corrupt Federal Reserve along with the politicians and bankers.
outaheresoonMessage #1082 - 07/03/09 03:26 AMI filed for unemployment and now, 5 weeks later, still haven't heard anything. No wonder the unemployment figures are looking a little better, they're not putting people on the rolls.
datrainerMessage #1083 - 07/03/09 06:36 AMI actually think the answer is rather easy - Tax Cuts across the board! NOT taxing the crap out of business when we are already down! Talk to me - I don't get it - why won't anybody say it?!? TAX CUTS.
outaheresoonMessage #1084 - 07/03/09 01:00 PM why won't anybody say it?!? TAX CUTS.
The reason no one says "tax cuts" is because the liberals have stirred up the people to believe that anyone that makes 100K or more is rich and should pay more taxes. What people don't realize is that the upper middle class are the small business people and America's greatest employer. These are not the people that need to be punished. The rich all go along with the idea because they already have their fortunes made and hidden offshore and they like to eliminate the competition to their wealth. The poor, that are already getting handouts, think it's a great idea because they get more goodies and so the middle class disappears. I am in a position right now where I have lost all incentive to produce more and create more jobs. It isn't worth the hassle if the government takes more of my money. So, America will loose one more taxpayer and employer. These idiots either don't get it or they do get it and are committing the treasonous act of destroying the country on purpose.
rjslrsMessage #1085 - 07/03/09 01:18 PMThese idiots either don't get it or they do get it and are committing the treasonous act of destroying the country on purpose. It makes me wonder if Khrushchev was right in his prediction. Yes, the load of paperwork coming from the current administration will doom small business, who don't have the personnel to handle it. The middle class has been getting squeezed from both sides, from the ultra-rich and from those that receive social benefits, now the ones receiving social benefits are going to be thrown under the bus.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1086 - 07/03/09 01:38 PMThese idiots either don't get it or they do get it and are committing the treasonous act of destroying the country on purpose. Treason is the right choice of words!
Crying TreeMessage #1087 - 07/03/09 03:42 PMPeople just don't get!!!! 6 service calls by six different companies at my place were by illegal mexicans. Jobs went overseas and to illegal's. I sold my house to a Dutch couple who are coming over to here to work for a English Company. What about the American Citizen? America is headed for a bad time because they do not take care of their own when it comes to employment. California spends 20% on welfare & health issues for illegal's. 30% for prisons. They are Broke!!!!
BGA4444Message #1088 - 07/08/09 11:10 AMNews this morning said apartments are at HISTORIC vacancies. You ask how could that be with everyone losing homes? Here are a few other things working against us. The elderly are being moved from their homes into either children's homes or care homes at a huge rate. Then their old home gets put on the market flooding a already flooded market. This causes home prices to fall even further. Just like in the 1930's generations are moving in together. Take myself for instance I , my twenty year old son and my thirty year old son and his girlfriend and their baby all live under the same roof. I am fifty and have taken a 40 to 60% pay cut just to keep a job. Hold on very tight folks this thing is about to explode. We are weeks away from hitting 10% unemployment and when that number is announced the computer instructed sells are going to blast the market. Good luck!
genoooMessage #1089 - 07/08/09 12:21 PMhey folks,
genoooMessage #1090 - 07/08/09 12:22 PMhey folks, just stopped in to cheer up the doom and gloomers so cheer up, or else.
ozone7Message #1091 - 07/08/09 12:36 PMWhen the thin, ethereal veneer of civilization is cracked and eventual shatters, the only true, valid law reaffirms itself: the Law of the Jungle. Take care of yourself, because nobody else is going to do it. Take care of yourself, or become roadkill. Grizzly bears don't do catch and release on salmon.
Goofy GooberMessage #1092 - 07/08/09 02:20 PMThere has been a good effort with all of the tea parties going on campaigning against higher taxes, etc... but for this movement to really b!tch slap the US government, it's going to need more than a few hundred thousand people picketing. There are over 300 million people in America. It needs millions of people to do this and for that to happen, the poor people are going to have be effected by Obama's policies as well. I don't think we're there yet because by my observation, people think the tea parties are good idea but a lot of people keep coming up with excuses not to attend. They're pathetic excuses in my opinion. So what does that say then about people? They haven't been effected yet by things that should matter to them... it will though soon enough...
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:49:22 GMT -5
1939sMessage #1093 - 07/08/09 02:46 PMS&T : They haven't been effected yet by things that should matter to them... it will though soon enough...
Don't bet on it. One business we have is running a small apartment complex. So long as there's drugs, booze, cable and sex they just don't care about anything. Second problem is they move in, pay a smallish deposit and then default on the rent which gives them three months rent-free living before they're out. Try this as a thought - a large percentage of Americans are (just since the depression started - I don't think so) used to living this way so where are the necessary millions of real protests going to come from - not from people who have learned to "work" the system that's for sure. Heck, they even take a twisted pride in getting away with it - with no sense of shame at all. Sounds like they've gone corporate
neohguyMessage #1094 - 07/08/09 03:17 PMAgree with what 1939's said. Another reason is tea parties do not have the support that tea party enthusiasts think they have. Rightfully or wrongfully the media portrays them as southern white red neck, beer swilling, not very educated people that have agendas besides the use of taxes. Another problem is "tea party" just sounds silly. I'm not knocking them but they need better pr.
neohguyMessage #1096 - 07/17/09 12:51 PMThis is an interesting interactive link for those that want to track recession trends by state from 1995 to 5/09. The site says that there is a 2 month lag. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31910726/ns/us_news-the_elkhart_project A ton of information. edit: Michigan has been in continuous recession the longest (April 06).
BGA4444Message #1099 - 08/06/09 01:40 PMJust wait till the fake unemployment number hits 10% then we are going to see some real fear on wall st. It will be a pull back probably not seen ever!
DriftrMessage #1100 - 08/06/09 02:05 PMWe have been told that 10% U3 is likely for quite some time now in an effort to soften the blow if/when it arrives. Don't forget that U3 (published unemployment) excludes those who are no longer looking for work. I'll be very interested to see U6 after the BLS publishes their July statistics sans the birth/death adjustments from the Spring.
rovoMessage #1102 - 08/06/09 02:43 PMoutoftheworld, I'm deleting your post #1101. If you have serious content to add, please post it. Otherwise I would suggest lurking instead of posting useless comments.
outoftheworldMessage #1103 - 08/06/09 03:27 PMrovo, you wouldn't know serious from fiction. You are stuck in fantasy land for now.
outoftheworldMessage #1104 - 08/06/09 03:29 PMWall Street DUMB DOGS are BARKING BUY BUY BUY. BUY MORE ON THE DIPS. JUST BUY! RUFF RUFF!
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:50:14 GMT -5
oceoMessage #1105 - 08/06/09 04:09 PMThe doom and gloom you are forecasting is highly unlikely! The Depression had 25% unemployment. It differs in that we had no social security, no unemployment insurance, no FDIC the Banks failed and closed keeping depositors funds. Now we have those safeguards an our Banks have added reserves to their funds to insure that they survive. In addition, the banks are reporting profits again. I have been through two recessions and not only survived but prospered. I started my business in a recession! You must think positively and go out there and get what you want. Continually adjusting your plan for the economic changes. All this negativity scares you and inhibits initiative. If your afraid your going to get laid off, start looking ASAP! Take control of you life and avoid being scared into doing nothing. Don't forget, 90% of the people are working and many firms have trimmed their losses and are making money again. Hope this helps all to weather the negative media blitz we been pounded with.
rovoMessage #1106 - 08/06/09 04:53 PMoutoftheworld, I have asked you repetitively to not post garbage and yet you continue to do so. You have just won yourself a one week vacation from the message boards. rovo -- MSN Money Moderator
BGA4444Message #1107 - 08/06/09 05:46 PMRovo cop great job! I believe you have eclipsed the great big brother VL and he can now begin his long over due retirement!
rjslrsMessage #1110 - 08/12/09 10:57 AMHere is a fairly good article about the Cash for Clunkers deal. It brings up some things I have said and misses some other unintended consequences. articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/5-downsides-to-cash-for-clunkers.aspx I skimmed over it, but didn't notice any mention of the negative side of adding, yet more debt, at a bad time for most consumers. The risk of the shiny new cars ending up on repo lots in a couple months. And of course the fact that this is yet another bubble to carry us through to prosperity.
BGA4444Message #1111 - 08/13/09 02:46 PMAtlanta is a pretty good city to be in. However, commercial property has started to implode. Brand new shopping centers set vacant with weeds growing through the concrete. Large centers with large grocery stores like Publix and Kroger are less than 50% occupied and business are going out everyday. My business after three years of double digit declines continues to have terrible trends. I will tell you this if the current business trends continue for six to nine more months we are all going to be unemployed. Americans need jobs and somebody better come up with some quick or there will be a changing of the guard in Washington. I cant wait to see how many of the sorry excuses of a politician we have in DC loses their job. Save the banks, save the automakers, save Wall st. you better be worried about saving your own butt if you are a politician. If you have a I = incumbent by your name you are gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
outaheresoonMessage #1112 - 08/14/09 02:01 AMincumbent by your name you are gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Meet the new boss...the same as the old boss! Wasn't it "The Who" that sang that. It didn't make sense back then, but now I think I understand it.
schrizoMessage #1113 - 08/14/09 02:38 AMToo bad Atlanta is suffering so much. Here in Omaha you don't see that. Not sure what would have happened had the banks and auto companys gone under. Many think it would have been complete chaos and I can't say they are wrong. I do know if your working now it is not all bad. I would encourage a return to some of the older more inefficient ways of doing business to create jobs. Carry out groceries, service stations that wipe your windows and check your oil. Pick up every bit of litter, seal the concrete provide incentives for tax payers to insulate their homes. Problem is, so many people have made so much money for so long they won't accept lower paying jobs even if they were available. I never made more than 30K so for me it would be a small adjustment. Try coming up with some solutions (jobs) that could be created. Its not real easy. Even if we went to war it would not be a ground war and few tanks and jeeps would be needed. We are screwed unless we can pay welfare to the masses or find something the rest of the world wants and can't build for themselves. I'm kind of glad I'm getting older when it comes to worrying about this. Hang in there people.
jaylaruleMessage #1114 - 08/15/09 06:40 PMI was reading your posts back in March and as a new investor they kind of scared me. In fact I missed a good portion of the move in March and April cause I was stupid enough to listen to you and others telling lies and propaganda. I appreciate it because I believe that freedom of speech and ideas is truly important. However people who are reading these posts need to understand that you are a short seller, you likely short financials as well. It is people like you who got us into this situation, manipulating the newbies and constructing a web of lies and deceit. I wish you would not hide behind these message boards, its shameful. If you truly believed what is going to happen will happen (you have been wrong every time since your original post at S&P 666, newbies start from the beginning and read) then you would take some real action and promote legislation or become proactive instead of remaining a cowardly hoarding reactivist. Promote legislation against the uptick rule...no probably not, cause that is how you reap the rewards of your hard work on these boards. The uptick rule reinstatement would lighten your pockets. Good luck shorting financials...hmmm how about BAC, up 5 points in 3 weeks, and up 14 points in 6 months. Or wait how about JPM or GS...I am sure you are one of those who believes GS will hit 90 by years end. The markets bottomed, the depression is over, recovery is a natural part of the process. Yes the recovery will take time, but we will never hit DOW 6400 again, at least not in my life time, and I am a young man. Listening to you one might believe that the markets can go down infinitely...even if EVERY bank was to be nationalized and went to zero we still would only be at DOW 4400. Get a grip, markets go up, and we have actual REALITY showing us this one is also.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1115 - 08/15/09 07:23 PMI was stupid enough to listen to you and others telling lies and propaganda At least you know yourself well! Go ahead put money in the market now! Yes the Depression is over!!! DOW 25,000 here we come!! Go out and buy a new car while you are at it. Heck , by two cars! Who needs all these silly details about losing 500,000 jobs per month or record foreclosure rates, record bankruptcy rates, the Commercial Real Estate market collapsing, record amounts of retailers going under, record numbers of unemployed going back to the last Depression ( using -6 Numbers) , the longest lasting "Recession" since the last Depression and so on? Yes you are correct the market is rebounding, why sit on the side lines, you could make a fortune!!! Go right ahead my friend because for all the faults of this country it is still America and you still have the right to put your money where you think is best. Why listen to all these people on these boards? Just because they were correct about the Recession/Depression long before the economists who didn't even know we were in a recession until a year after the fact, what do they know. Me, I'm still sitting on the sidelines with my money; but you can wave at me from your limo as you pass by after you get rich. I'm comfortable at this point in preserving my money rather trying to get rich quick. I'm not as young as you and I'm not willing to risk it all. PS: Since you obviously don't like the warnings of the people on this board why are you here in the first place? - Could it be that you are the one trying to spread propaganda?
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:51:07 GMT -5
jaylaruleMessage #1117 - 08/15/09 07:53 PMI'm bored on a sat. afternoon, broke my leg in a car accident, hence the internet surfing. Thought I would check in a see what you all had been up to. btw, my post was not meant for you Falling Sky-Not, it was meant for BGA4444. I don't think you are spreading propaganda/lies. You might be a bit conservative for my taste, however I respect what you have to say. On a side note, my intentions in the market are not to get rich, in fact, I only have about 40% of my savings in the market now. I'll wait with the rest in CDs playing it safe until I feel unemployment has bottomed and the cycle has begun to change in an even more favorable direction. I just think people who promote the economy as an all or nothing senario are lying and out to benefit from those lies. If I was older, like you, I would be on the sidelines. We are sure to have one more larger pullback before we begin to move more sustainably higher. Fortunately I can be in the market now and take the risk with a percentage of my money. It has benefited me greatly, making almost 25% on my money in about 6 months. Also I can still work for 30-35 more years, especially in my profession (psychologist) so I am more inured to the risk involved in this market. Yes the market is risky, but I really believe people like BGA4444 is out to manipulate people and very extreme. Yes I am a liberal socialist type, and although I cannot speak for BGA4444, I think it is safe to say is likely more conservative. We both have our issues, and my leg is broken on top of that. One quick point of curiosity for me Falling Sky, if you are completely on the sidelines, then why are you on these boards?
neohguyMessage #1118 - 08/15/09 08:31 PMActually, I'm sure that if you calculated unemployment with the same formula as they did in 1930, Those type of comparisons are very difficult to come by. Many more households have two bread winners in 2009 vs 1931. Most (not all) of these households can scrape by with one person working. We are also (thankfully) not in the middle of a dust bowl, with no safety net, at this time. My personal observation (imo) is that posters that have taken the extremely bearish position of taking physical procession of gold and bullets seem to insist that civilization will collapse and will talk that up whenever possible. They almost seem desperate when there is some news that may indicate that we are no longer in a free fall. Most of the people on the MT board seem to be unsure what will happen next. Most know that they can not predict the future let alone the day and the hour. They plug along, trying to keep their head above water, and offer a helping hand when able. These would be both Bull and Bear. Before job losses accelerated last year, I would frequently complain about how my NE, OH region had suffered since the last recession (early 80's). I can't do that anymore, Michigan is now in far greater trouble than my region. I have read many of your posts about the importance of responsible agriculture. I'm in agreement about that principle. Although my region is industrial, and I think industry is important, we can't eat gears. You pondered this concept about agriculture when your economic situation turned south and you used some of that time to learn. You will probably hone those ideas and spread what you have learned for the rest of your life. Many people will listen and remember, even a bald guy like me from the rust belt. Good luck to you.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1119 - 08/15/09 08:51 PMOne quick point of curiosity for me Falling Sky, if you are completely on the sidelines, then why are you on these boards? Jaylarule, I sincerely apologize if I mistook what you were saying. To answer your question about being 100% on the sidelines yes I am and have been for over a year now. I do intend to jump back into the market at some point though. I am usually a buy and hold person in the stock market, I am not usually a market timer and my main area of investing is in Real Estate which I got into about 1991. I have learned a lot from these boards. I don't agree with everything everyone has to say but that doesn't mean that they are not right. One thing I have learned is that there are many ways to make and lose money in investing and some are making money right now and even when the market was dropping like a rock some were making money. But I am smart enough to know that when I don't understand something 100% I don't invest in it. Right now the market going up like it has on the fundamentals we have just does not make sense to me so I am staying clear of it. If I don't make any money and a lot of others get rich well so be it. I just sit back and wait for my time. Some times we have to read through a lot of nonsense to get to the point that teaches us something but that's okay with me because we need some entertainment sometimes. And yes some are extreme on both sides of the economy issue but I try and look at facts and until I see some positive movements I'm afraid I have to take a more negative outlook right now. But I know at some point things will get better, just like you said it will go back up again and hopefully it will be on sound fundamentals. Sorry to hear about your leg, It must be especially miserable to have it happen in the heat of the summer.
GECOLLEGEMessage #1120 - 08/16/09 02:22 AMwe will never hit DOW 6400 again, at least not in my life time, and I am a young man. ........ don't bet on it!
outoftheworldMessage #1122 - 08/16/09 03:33 AMThe only reason stocks have taken off is because Wall Street/Federal Reserve and US Banks have joined forces (COLLUDING) in an all out EFFORT to DECEIVE investors into thinking banks are profitable again. THEY ARE NOT! How are they getting away with this? The banks can now legally report TOXIC ASSETS on their financial statements (on their BOOKS) at much higher values than their TRUE VALUE which is close to zero. How? The Feds are allowing Banks to do away with MARK TO MARKET ACCOUNTING for these JUNK TOXIC INSTRUMENTS. Who wants to buy JUNK? The banks now have an incentive to hold on to them because if they were to sell they would have to report a loss. They don't want losses. So they hang on to them and announce they are profitable again. Meanwhile they are taking our tax dollars and paying out ridiculous bonuses to IDIOTS who got us in this mess in the first place. NOW does this make any rational sense to you? For the moment, they have succeeded in their MISSION and at the same time flushed TRANSPARENCY/CLARITY/ACCOUNTABILITY down the toilet. Is this the kind of leadership we want running our government? Definitely not, but this is the example our government is setting to CORPORATE AMERICA, "Go ahead and cheat for as long as you can...if you get caught it's only a slap on the hand." This deception will be short lived though and the global stock markets will CRASH again very soon now and much worse than before. PS - Those who say banks are profitable again...they don't know what they are talking about, but they are surely DECEIVED.
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1123 - 08/16/09 04:02 AMHas anyone thought of the 30 year long bull market in T-Bonds.. Did well at 17% interest now 4%.. so if you had a 50/50 bond stock you bought stock at the bottom.... now for gold  ? 50/40/10% gold??? or 60 stock/40 bonds??? add some REIT for the VERY long term.. a little a time??? any thoughts, Bi Metal Au Pt
GECOLLEGEMessage #1124 - 08/16/09 11:55 AMREIT for the VERY long term........the average REIT lost on average 90% of its value during the 1973 bear market, which by the way will look like a bull market compared to what we are facing. I expect most REIT's to experience the same fate and price declines as AIG and FannyMae before this bear market is over.
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1125 - 08/16/09 07:32 PMGE, Done look now but the bear market is over.. 90%.. Most REIT I know of started after 1973 or during the 1970's. Kash is King so who has the cash will be able to buy cheap..90% would be a good buy for the group. As I said buy over a very long period of time( a little at a time).. might be a good system.. Risk Yes..so is cash Thank-you Bi Metal Au Pt
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1126 - 08/16/09 09:13 PMGE,
Done look now but the bear market is over.. 90%.. Even though the market has risen the past couple of months some of us don't think the bear market is any where near over but believe what you will, but with Reits - Commercial Real Estate is just beginning to crash so I really think you can wait a couple of months to see how low they might go before investing in them.
ComoKateMessage #1127 - 08/17/09 03:02 AMThe doom and gloom you are forecasting is highly unlikely! The Depression had 25% unemployment. It differs in that we had no social security, no unemployment insurance, no FDIC the Banks failed and closed keeping depositors funds. Now we have those safeguards an our Banks have added reserves to their funds to insure that they survive. Jim Jubak has page on Facebook, and by his research and calculations, the real unemployment rate is over 16%. He's a pretty reliable fellow and seems to check his facts. I'm not sure this even takes into account those ( me being one) who have been down-graded to part time rather than full time. I do agree that we have some safety nets in place that did not exist during the "Great Depression" years, which has greatly buffered the effects of this toxic economy; thank goodness for that, since for many they are the only things that come between them and hunger/homelessness. Could the U.S. "fail"? Of course we could. I'm not wishing it will happen. I'm not expecting it to happen in my lifetime. However if we did, it certainly, as we can see from historical records, we would not be the first civilization to do so. Many large and great civilizations, much older in their age than ours, did eventually fall, so I do think it is a bit arrogant to think that somehow we ( or any country/culture for that matter) is immune to the same fate. I do think ( and hope) we will come out of this economic situation, perhaps a bit brusied and worse for the wear, though maybe we will not return to , quite frankly, the gluttonous and unsustainable lifestyle many "enjoyed" before this crisis, but perhaps with new skills,"muscle" and wisdom. Bye the way...my unasked for "forecast" for the next few months... I see another painful contraction this fall due to another wave of home foreclosures, commercial properties also falling into this abyss, dismal third quarter reports that will show the anticipated economic "rebound" did not happen and projected earnings will not have materialized. As I count down to my 50th birthday, I will continue to sit on the sidelines, having been fortunate enough to trust my gut instincts one year ago when I transferred my retirement stocks into IRA CD's. The economic fate of our nation depends much upon what happens within the next 6 months; I do not see a clear picture of what the New Year may bring.
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1128 - 08/17/09 05:59 AMOK REIT is a large system of many types of assets.. Oil and Gas like SJT, NY office Like VNO, Stores and offices like SLG and Hospitals like HCN AND mini storage PSAOR ETF LIKE ICF... Long term risk as part of the hard asset class... max 10% part of a system of well defined risk systems....Yes it is a bit pricy right now so you should hold off.. it is just a thought at something to add when prices a cheap...very long term...
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:51:59 GMT -5
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1129 - 08/19/09 02:04 AMALSO REIT is the symbel for Dow Jones Total REIT index...Are we in a depression.. That depends on where you are..Twenty years ago when oil was 13.. West Texas was a very depressed area.. No action at all but the rest of the world was doing well.. Now New York is dead.. No action in the World Trade , Insurance or Banking..Are we in a depression.. If you live in New York .. Yes but West Texas.. No 
BGA4444Message #1130 - 08/24/09 04:28 PMWe are losing jobs but everything is fine. Our wages are falling but everything is fine. If you work at a Wall st. bank everything is business as usual. Everything is not fine! If you lost your job three years ago everything is not fine. If you work in the construction business everything is not fine. Who is believing that all is fine? People who profit by things being fine. Hell yes things are fine if you call 40% less wages fine and a longer work week on top of it fine! I am sick and tired of the B.S.!
outaheresoonMessage #1131 - 08/24/09 05:19 PMEverything is fine if you work at Goldman Sachs and are making commissions on other people's money whether they lose or gain. Everything is fine if you are a politician and are bilking taxpayers out of their hard-earned money and paying yourself a big fat salary. Everything is fine if you are a bank CEO and have gotten taxpayer money and claimed false profits while making your stock value increase by 40% in 4 months. You are just on the wrong side of the equation, like me and quite a few others.
decoy409Message #1132 - 08/24/09 05:58 PMoutaheresoon - call it as you see it,thats what they say. So how do you know who is who? In the light of financials I think that it is very easy to do. Have you noticed how the ones that can't stop are like a junkie. They will throw all of what is wrong and has been wrong out the window just so they can get a fix. It is not even a clever plan as the 'VAST' majority of the people know what the hell is going on. Im telling ya outaheresoon,the loan officers are meeting and our deciding on the next overbearing sum to be loaned out or it was designed to end up as it has and is going. There is not any other way about it. A major investment will be sponsored once again or we crush and start over. I have been listening to the one that speaks of small farms coming out of the closet in local communities across the board. This is a very good idea. I visit a Amish community a couple of times a month. There I get the best of the best of the best at just silly prices. Fifty cents per pound for fresh dug red potatoes,seventy five cents fresh heads of broccoli,one dollar for choice on cabbage heads. Don't see gas power working there! Hell just got 18lbs. of bing cherries for ten dollars a box! Now some smart ass comes back and criticizes this person about bringing back small farms? ?? I do not have to see the critizier,I can tell you all about them.
BGA4444Message #1133 - 08/25/09 08:03 PMThe government knows how to do it right. First no help for Chrysler just go bankrupt close asap alot of your dealers. Next they rush GM thru the bankruptcy court screwing anyone who they owed money to except the UAW. Next give tax dollars to new car buyers for cars that are worthless. The funny thing is the reduced amount of fuel the new cars will use. This reduction in consumption will translate into fewer tax dollars for the states and feds thus putting them all into more dire straits. The best I have heard is the record number of repo cars that will hit the credit market in six months. The best idea from washington how about some more credit for those of you who have some credit left great idea geniuses.
JakelordMessage #1134 - 08/25/09 08:22 PMHows that "Change" working out for you? Why did we vote this guy into office?
Stay PutMessage #1135 - 08/25/09 08:56 PMWhy did we vote this guy into office? What do you mean "we"?
BGA4444Message #1136 - 08/25/09 09:37 PMThe American people that's the "we". Because Americans were sick and tired of the same ol politics. John Mccain was the best the republicans had to offer a country sick and tired of not being represented in Washington. I voted for Obama because I felt unless you make about 500,000 a year the republican party does not represent you-only big business and special interest. Even now the republicans knowing health care in this country will bankrupt us do not care enough to come up with a better plan! Just leave it alone like in 93' & 94'. We are # 38 in life expectancy behind every socialized medical care country in the world. There is NOTHING wrong with our preexisting condition on health care B.S.!
Stay PutMessage #1137 - 08/25/09 09:56 PMThe American people that's the "we". Because Americans were sick and tired of the same ol politics. Actually most Americans sat out and did not vote, as they "we" could not stomach the idea of being forced fed either candidate. Obama never received a mandate from the American people, as most refused to vote for either dumb or dumber.
outaheresoonMessage #1138 - 08/25/09 11:16 PMActually most Americans sat out and did not vote, as they "we" could not stomach the idea of being forced fed either candidate. Obama never received a mandate from the American people, as most refused to vote for either dumb or dumber. Right on! these a holes are just 2 different sides of the same coin. We need a complete route of this slime along with some public hangings for treason. These people have betrayed our country for the sake of their own good. Until we get rid of these clowns and get some kind of a moral revival we are doomed.
BGA4444Message #1139 - 08/26/09 01:15 PMBased on the Constitution We the people must "takeout" this corrupt government either by vote or any other means available to us!
schrizoMessage #1140 - 08/26/09 02:12 PMSuccessful politicians always move toward the center. If you think "taking out" the current system will bring change you may find yourselves without the structure to work in opposition towards any government. We need to beware that what we replace our system with could easily be much worse. Be the change you want in others and if (it is respected ) it will grow and spread into all areas of your life. You will be proactive instead of reactive, knowing you are doing all you can within an imperfect system.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:52:52 GMT -5
BigBrother123Message #1141 - 08/26/09 03:17 PMI voted for Obama because I felt unless you make about 500,000 a year the republican party does not represent you-only big business and special interest.d for Obama because I felt unless you make about 500,000 a year the republican party does not represent you-only big business and special interest. Yeah and Obama's done so much for the non-super rich since he's been in office. He's done nothing but give the banks trillions of dollars to bail them out.
BGA4444Message #1142 - 08/26/09 03:27 PMI guess just like Blazzing Saddles said "its twue its twue" Obama is like all politicians! Sticking it to us only harder and deeper.
neohguyMessage #1143 - 08/29/09 08:54 PMHere you go BGA4444. I'm posting so your thread will be front and center again. Feel better now?
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1144 - 08/29/09 10:19 PMActually most Americans sat out and did not vote, as they "we" could not stomach the idea of being forced fed either candidate I think you have it - I know I personally could not vote for either party - we need a " None of the above choice" and if they don't get a clear majority then they should be forced to start the process all over again with new candidates! If you think "taking out" the current system will bring change you may find yourselves without the structure to work in opposition towards any government Whether most realize it or not centrist is the change they are looking for except when it comes to economics and I believe ( just my opinion) most Americans want a fiscally conservative leader. After all it's our money and most us wouldn't let some irresponsible embezzling financial advisor handling our finances. Yet this is what we have for elected leaders. They throw billions around like it means nothing!
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1145 - 08/30/09 06:56 PMDo not fight the Fed...M1 is up 15%... Target M1 = Target inflation + Target GDP growth only problem is V1 is in the tank..because action of the Fed takes 12-18 months to produce a reaction!! The Model projected Sept 2009 will be the tipping point for the GDP.. We are in a recovery (Then!)! March 2010 should be the first signs of better jobs markets...Then you will not be able to find some highly educated people for the upper end jobs!!! Just a thought, Bi Metal Au Pt
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1146 - 08/30/09 07:18 PMFROM FED-WATCH POSTED BY FLOW5 PART ONE OF THREE.. GO TO FED-WATCH FOR THE REST For those who need a reminder or never took a course in economics, the equation of exchange is an algebraic way of stating a truism; that the product of the unit prices and quantities of goods and services exchanged, is equal (for the same time period) to the product of the volume and velocity of money. Velocity is the rate of speed at which money is being spent. It is self-evident from the equation that an increase in the volume and or velocity of money will cause a rise in unit prices, if the volume of transactions increases less, and vice versa. This is merely algebra, but it has an important economic application. The economic question arises from differing opinions as to whether the monetary authorities (The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal Open Market Committee) can control both the volume and velocity of money, and the effects of changes to the volume and velocity of money, in production and employment, as well as on prices. Alan Greenspan·s profligacy ended with Ben Bernanke·s appointment to the Chairman of the Federal Reserve in February 2006. Coinciding with Bernanke·s instatement, the FOMC reversed Greenspan·s extremely ·easy· money policy, and established a fresh ·tight· money policy. At that point, correcting the Central Bank·s past excesses required the ·trading desk· to drain the existing volume of legal reserves. From Feb. 2006 until July 2009, the FOMC pursued a consistently tighter money policy. In fact, the rate-of-change in the volume of legal reserves (the proxy for inflation), fell for 29 consecutive months (out of a possible 29, or sufficient to wring inflation out of the economy). It·s only been in the last 10 successive months (since Aug 2008), that it was necessary for the FOMC to switch from its ·tight· monetary policy, to the extraordinarily ·easy· monetary policy at present. Easy money is here defined as a growth rate of aggregate monetary demand (money times velocity) in excess of the growth rate of product and service output. During the past 12 months the money multiplier has varied (it collapsed) from 209 to 114. It collapsed because the rate of expansion in loans and investments plunged as (1) credit worthy customers and (2) investment grade securities both disappeared. Interpreted, this means that if the Manager of the Open Market Account, operating from his office in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York bought $1 billion of Treasury bills for the accounts of the 12 Federal Reserve banks (or if there was any other type of expansion of Reserve Bank credit by 1 billion), the money supply would expand almost immediately, by approximately $114b. (During the Great Depression excess reserves were roughly twice required reserves). All of the data necessary to correctly estimate the multiplier relationship that exists between member bank (1) legal reserves plus or (2) bank credit proxy, and the (1) 60 largest CBs on the Board·s H.8 release or (2) commercial bank credit, are available to the FED. From these data the necessary computations can be made. The basic expansion coefficient for the banking system as a whole (the correct source base), is obtained, by dividing commercial bank credit, by the sum of the member bank·s (1) required reserves, & (2) required clearing balances (because past reductions in required reserves have largely been accompanied by ·offsetting increases· in the member bank·s clearing balances). The decline in the number of banks which are ·bound·, or whose required reserves curb the expansion of their loans-deposits, has continued their long decline (since the early 90s). However because banks continue to need Central Bank deposits, for clearing checks, and making other interbank payments, the Central Bank still has leverage (a limited control), over the money and bond markets.
BGA4444Message #1148 - 09/08/09 11:20 AMAs we approach on paper unemployment at 10% the lingo for "the no new jobs" recession exit continues. But let us see how much longer the market continues to climb?
Veteran_LenderMessage #1149 - 09/08/09 11:38 AMFor those who need a reminder or never took a course in economics, the equation of exchange is an algebraic way of stating a truism; that the product of the unit prices and quantities of goods and services exchanged, is equal (for the same time period) to the product of the volume and velocity of money. The observation for this is: terminate personnel then expect less sales as a result of. The "velocity" stated is directly relative to perception. Working people feel good and buy things, not working people may have the same cash flow but won't buy. When people go back to work, sales increase. The higher the executive pay, the less invested they are in mainstream economics. Ergo... regular people making money lift an economy. As we approach on paper unemployment at 10% the lingo for "the no new jobs" recession exit continues. But let us see how much longer the market continues to climb? [ articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/MutualFunds/ride-this-new-bull-market.aspx] Bullish. This new article is correct, when pessimism peaks, opportunities abound. This is what is driving the markets higher. It doesn't mean it's all good investing... this is the direction fuel causing the activity. From this period we should see cataclysmic losers in the retraction because there isn't a single valid fundamental anyone can rely on. Simply put, it's like Roulette, the ball spins on the wheel while people are plopping down oodles of dollars, but ultimately, where the ball actually lands is completely random.
great depression1Message #1150 - 09/08/09 12:51 PMwww.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/6152204/UN-wants-new-global-currency-to-replace-dollar.html They now want to realign the debt with a new currency to measure it by...............but this radical realignment is more progressive politics and a way to destroy american dominance than it is to help the world markets...........disband the UN and lets protect our own economies and currencies at home.
BGA4444Message #1151 - 09/08/09 02:15 PMNeohguy What is up with that post? I may be a narcissist but you are just a jerk!
great depression1Message #1152 - 09/08/09 02:31 PM thehill.com/homenews/senate/57493-senate-must-raise-debt-ceiling-above-12t [ thehill.com/homenews/senate/57493-senate-must-raise-debt-ceiling-above-12t] Obama Asks Senate To Increase Debt Ceiling... Senate must raise debt ceiling above $12T By Walter Alarkon - 09/07/09 12:11 PM ET The Senate must move legislation to raise the federal debt limit beyond $12.1 trillion by mid-October, a move viewed as necessary despite protests about the record levels of red ink. The move will highlight the nation·s record debt, which has been central to Republican attacks against Democratic congressional leaders and President Barack Obama. The year·s deficit is expected to hit a record $1.6 trillion
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:53:44 GMT -5
decoy409Message #1153 - 09/08/09 02:40 PMCAUTION! If My Post Today Is Correct We Are All In Grave Danger! CAUTION! This is all part of the master plan to collapse the system! Everything is now making sense and ever so clear! I hope to God Dr. Collins and company are wrong!
great depression1Message #1154 - 09/08/09 02:55 PMThis is going to be a bigger bust than 29..............buy gold and silver its all thats left
decoy409Message #1155 - 09/08/09 03:02 PM great depression 1 - There is talk of a bank holiday that is the 'sign' that true collapse begins upon that. Am I way over the edge on this one?
great depression1Message #1156 - 09/08/09 03:52 PMAll we can do is wait.......those smart enuf havent been in the market or at the minimum of any risk to what capital they have or control........This president will tax everything youve made and he will do it retroactivly so all that fed money that has been dumped in the market place that the short sellers have been profiting from will be taken back next year or the year following.......this is not a good environment for investing or opening a business. Too many unknowns with the current potus and congress to even make a planned decison for any business.
decoy409Message #1157 - 09/08/09 04:06 PMgreat depression 1 - This is Exactly as you state the current potus and congress to even make a planned decision for any business as in my post this morning by Dr. Collins and associates contributing. IT WAS DESIGNED THIS WAY!
jack the ripperMessage #1158 - 09/08/09 10:51 PMEach day i look at what youve talked about and wonder why the market rises? why why why
decoy409Message #1159 - 09/08/09 11:02 PMEach day i look at what youve talked about and wonder why the market rises? why why why jack the ripper - See my post this morning (you have to click at the bottom of the board to show 'all discussions'. Cut me a little slack and comment there after you read it. I am telling you this whole thing 'forever' has been a big Sham-WoW. That gem that I posted has me very worried that after all I have come to read and see in the news from all over the place,that this thing is just a massive overinflated balloon that has been covered up so well that even the best can't figure out it is about to blow! All of my posts today show some really crazy things happening right now! I have checked and triple checked sources and Im tellin ya.......
angelqueekMessage #1160 - 09/09/09 04:43 PMDecoy, where is the Dr. Collins post from this morning? What thread? Thanks.
decoy409Message #1161 - 09/09/09 04:53 PMangelqueek - I edited title just now. Don't think for all the thinking caps many do not understand the title. Made it a simple title.
angelqueekMessage #1162 - 09/09/09 04:59 PMThanks Decoy!
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1163 - 09/09/09 05:27 PMIF THE MARKET IS A LARGE BETTING GAME.. BET ON BLACK AND YOU CAN WIN 52% OF THE TIME.. DOUBLE DOWN LOSES .. TAKE PROFITS  ...BUY THE HOUSE!!!! THE WORLD HAD BOUGHT OUR DEBT THINKING THEY WERE MAKING MORE MONEY..WE SOLD THE ABS TO THE SWISS AND BENLUX BANKING FIRMS.. EXPORT PAPER.. NOW WE ARE SELLING THEM GOLD ESP TO CHINA AND INDIA... LAST YEAR WHEN I WAS IN NEW YORK IT WAS CLEAR EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER.. MOST OF THEM WERE FROM SA...SURE SIGN OF A TOP..SO WHAT ABOUT THE WORLD LARGEST MAKER OF HIGH VALUE ADDED THING? WE WORK , WE WORK..OR AS THEY SAY YOU NEVER HEAR "SELF UNEMPLOYED" JUST A THOUGHT, Bi Metal Au Pt
BGA4444Message #1164 - 09/10/09 09:50 PMThere is a very large sucking sound that keeps getting louder and louder. Perhaps I am the only one who hears it. The sound is of dollars being sucked out of the US economy. The middle east has been doing it to us for decades with oil. China has been doing it lately with very cheap labor. Mexico has been sucking our money by sending people here who need jobs and they in turn send much of what they make back home. The increase in taxes at the state, local, and federal level are beginning to choke our economy to death! The regulations forcing us to buy insurance many times we do not need and can not afford. The finance companies are truly loan sharks charging 20 - 30% interest on the people who can least afford loans to begin with. Small business like my own who have been cut off by the very banks we saved are forced to get invoices "factored" at 1.5% compounded monthly because everyone we do business with is slow pay because they cant get paid. The small business man is going broke and he is the largest employer in the US. Nothing has been done to help us. Yet things are fine my butt you give us another year of what's happening now and there is not going to be a lot left to save. Good luck to you all and GOD speed.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:54:36 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #1165 - 09/24/09 06:06 PMThe stock market has gotten 50% better than its lows but other than that this post is still very accurate. Wall st. is better off but main st. still no jobs, no money, no hope!
great depression1Message #1166 - 09/24/09 06:35 PMJUST WAIT...............this markets so pumped up with worthless fed dollars its going to implode.
BGA4444Message #1167 - 09/24/09 06:42 PMIt is definitely a house of cards.
Fallen empireMessage #1168 - 09/24/09 07:36 PMLet me start by saying one of the biggest reasons this market will not endure is consumers trust/consumption ratio. For decades now Corporate gains have outpaced consumer wage growth in the excessive to say the least.
We were promised Capital gains tax would remedy some of these offsets by the republicans, in investment back in to the companies with updated technologies benefits and secured legacy cost.
Most if not all of this has not come to pass the money was spent on the bottom line for profits to pump up stock prices and top management bonuses to keep profit numbers fudged and or actually increased by means of not paying legacy cost,not upgrading plants and facilities,not offering affordable health care,not giving back to the workers in any shape or form what so ever.
Then enter 401k
An unrealized promise of the new rainbow in retirement legacy to which all must no by now is nothing but a slush fund for wall street.
Solution
Reform Tax Law 15% flat rate tax on all business,individual no loop holes period!
Business exceeds over 10% profit will be required to reinvest 50% of over profit cap gains into
1.20% back to the company in upgrading facilities/technologies
2. 20% back to benefits/legacy cost/wage increase with a min of 10% increase to wages.
3.10% back to Local Community including training/and work force development with a min of 2.5% to local charities ie:Red Cross/United Way ....
The other 50% above over profit cap gains can be used for Management bonus and packages not to exceed 5% on any individual within the company, and also be used to cover lagging years of min capped profit if it falls below 5% to maintain a min of 5% share gains for investments.
Scenario
I have $100k invested in stock A it's maximum gain for the year will be 10% or $10k extra in my pocket that year.
This does 3 things
1.CEO's and financial officers are not pressured into cooking the books trying to achieve an unobtainable goal of profit.
2.Share holders will recognize the value of steady fixed/limited/capped assured/ profits year in and year out.
3. Virtually eliminate all short term speculation and insider trading
The bottom line is Corporate America can continue to push us to the brink and perhaps to move on to other developing countries and take their chance to turn than into a consumer nation but they also take the chance of loosing everything example:Venezuela
If we want to remain a viable world power independent nation things must change,are resources are dwindling and the working class population is all but burnt out working just to survive.
It's getting to the point it would be no different than to take what cash we have left and head to the back 25 acres somewhere plant crops and live off the land as best you can because for a lot of people that's all their doing right not surviving not living in America!
Comment welcome.
DriftrMessage #1169 - 09/24/09 07:48 PMComment welcome.
My only comment would be a request that you stop spamming all threads with the same post.
JnapMessage #1170 - 09/24/09 09:15 PMI can·t believe how many people on this message board have PhD·s in economics. This same group also has a second degree in history and a third in statistics and political science. I am in awe of this superior intellect. Let·s suppose that the TARP program was not initiated and the stimulus program did not exist. Also let·s assume that GM and Chrysler totally went out of business and were liquidated and AIG filled for bankruptcy and ceased operations. Large banks like Citibank, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, and Chase gone? Five million small businesses closed because of complete lack of lending and the collapse of their customer base. Unemployment benefits stopped after 26 weeks because no stimulus money extending benefits. Tax receipts for Federal, State and local governments so reduced that public schools are closing. Then there is the problem with student lending being frozen forcing universities to close. Hospitals operating at greatly reduced capacities because 30% of Americans lost their jobs and have no health insurance, on top of the 16% already uninsured. Not to challenge the intellects, but can you possible imagine the scenario of an economy exponentially declining everyday? Can you imagine every state in the Union being bankrupt? Can you imagine unemployment at 30% and growing? No? Well that is what we would have if anyone took your advice seriously. We have a duly elected president in office 7 months trying to stabilize the economy and correct the huge problems brought on, not only by the last president, but by 25 years of irresponsibility and deregulation. Not to mention tax cuts enacted during a war causing growing deficits with no end in sight. There is an underlying theme to most of the postings about whether Obama caused the current problems or is helping to solve them. Just re-read the above paragraphs and tell me if you see the economy worsening or stabilizing and improving? Thank God your ideas go no further than this message board. Sorry to disappoint but we are no where near a great depression and I attribute that to those that have far greater experience, wisdom and education than the "PhD's."
SssjimMessage #1171 - 09/24/09 09:31 PMJnap: Also let·s assume that GM and Chrysler totally went out of business and were liquidated and AIG filled for bankruptcy and ceased operations. Large banks like Citibank, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, and Chase gone? Five million small businesses closed because of complete lack of lending and the collapse of their customer base. Unemployment benefits stopped after 26 weeks because no stimulus money extending benefits. Tax receipts for Federal, State and local governments so reduced that public schools are closing. Then there is the problem with student lending being frozen forcing universities to close. Hospitals operating at greatly reduced capacities because 30% of Americans lost their jobs and have no health insurance, on top of the 16% already uninsured. MY OPINION: Unfortunately, it appears that everything you said we have avoided WILL be happening eventually... government spending is just delaying the inevitable by a few years... our economy is sinking fast and will have to hit bottom before we can rebuild. No free lunches.
BGA4444Message #1172 - 09/25/09 01:58 PMJNAP' where exactly are the lost manufacturing jobs going to come from? Almost everything we buy is made in a third world nation. This manufacturing is done by employees with no rights, insurance, and pennies for wages. How exactly is the USA going to compete? We have been sold out by big business and politicians.
BGA4444Message #1173 - 10/02/09 04:59 PMJobs and a world war got us out of the first depression. What is it going to take this time? I recently heard a report it would take adding 400,000 jobs a month for two years to get us out of this mess. I will keep putting this post up front until I agree with some of you that the recession is over. Or until most of you agree with me that we are in the beginning of the worst depression ever.
BGA4444Message #1174 - 10/16/09 07:39 PMThere were bull runs in the middle of the Great Depression. I am positive during these bull runs no matter good news or bad the run continued. But long term the market fail and flattened with slow growth for years. Not even Government provided jobs, WWII, Korea, or the baby boom could make the market skyrocket like today. According to the government think tanks the recession is over. The reports say the economy has turned around in many areas. Here in Atlanta, GA. in the flooring business, even in the face of a 500 year flood sales are dismal at best. The only reason we have survived is layoffs and pay cuts. Normal or even close to normal business is a thing of the past. I have a job and for that I am blessed and grateful. But, I am surviving off of 40% less money and the near and distant future looks no better. The economist tell us when these things begin and end but can just one bright one tell us how not to let this happen again?
randy47Message #1175 - 10/16/09 08:10 PMWe are in a recession till the government and Wall Street wake up. Both are far from reality. We have no government and Wall Street is so manipulated that casino's are a better bet with your money. Look at today with the bad reports this morning it should have tanked 300 points and oil goes p a little bit and everything is cool. Right!!! What is manipulating what??
_RPEMessage #1176 - 10/16/09 08:10 PMJnap - Bravo. Well said.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:55:29 GMT -5
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1177 - 10/16/09 08:12 PMNot to challenge the intellects, but can you possible imagine the scenario of an economy exponentially declining everyday? Can you imagine every state in the Union being bankrupt? Can you imagine unemployment at 30% and growing? No? Who has to imagine when most of this is already true!
Stay PutMessage #1178 - 10/17/09 04:24 AMThe only reason we have survived is layoffs and pay cuts. Normal or even close to normal business is a thing of the past. I have a job and for that I am blessed and grateful. But, I am surviving off of 40% less money BGA, your plight is being felt all across America. What the treasonous, government spin doctors are touting, however, is the so called reduction in job losses, 200,000+ (supposedly) instead of 500,000+ for one month, and "the recession is over". What they should all be pushing, is the total job losses; underemployed, employed with major pay/benefits cuts, millions whose benefits have run out, and those about to run out. The millions of foreclosures. The tent cities, etc., etc., etc.. But don't hold your breath for our government to admit any of the glaring facts when they can't even bring themselves to say "Depression". As I have posted multiple times in the past:
In [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics] economics, a depression is a sustained, long-term downturn in economic activity in one or more economies. It is a more severe downturn than a [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession] recession, which is seen as part of a normal [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle] business cycle.
Considered a rare and extreme form of recession, a depression is characterized by its length, and by abnormal increases in [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment] unemployment, falls in the availability of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_(finance)] credit, shrinking output and investment, numerous [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcies] bankruptcies, reduced amounts of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade] trade and commerce, as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations, mostly [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devaluation] devaluations. Price [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation_(economics)] deflation, [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis] financial crisis and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_failure] bank failures are also common elements of a depression Does any of the past years events even remotely resemble a "normal business cycle"?
BGA4444Message #1179 - 10/17/09 02:22 PMStay put I agree the government and Wall St. are spoon feeding us misinformation. I guess they are afraid most Americans can not accept the truth about the economy. I am sure if they leveled with us we all would pull in a little tighter and make things even worse. I hate to be the one to tell them but if you have lost your job and home it could not get much worse. I just wish Washington would suck it up and do what's best for my children and grand children! You know it is funny, I don't really know what best is. What I do know is what they are doing now is not the answer.
BGA4444Message #1181 - 10/17/09 06:04 PMHey DJ the whitehouse said they saved or created about 30,000 new jobs with their 700,000,000,000.00 lol
Veteran_LenderMessage #1182 - 10/17/09 07:59 PMI read a printed article (so no link) that suggested the warehousing of data and use in presumptive selling is the biggest culprit in job evaporation. Basically, bookkeeping bean-counters cut out sales management and sales people for computer trending models of who buys what and when. To know administrative management is to know that they will buy MORE data and more software before admitting that they had severance'd the people who buy the products. Check out your junk e-mails... FREE Dell laptop, cash to complete surveys and service surveys with raffles. Those scams are accumulating new data that supposedly tells management who is buying what and how to get to them. I have ZERO confidence in artificial trending and don't participate in those venues. How about you?
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1183 - 10/18/09 02:49 PMThe millions of foreclosures. The tent cities, etc., etc., etc.. But don't hold your breath for our government to admit any of the glaring facts when they can't even bring themselves to say "Depression". I've said from the beginning of this fiasco that we cannot revive the economy until we (the government) admit to the real facts and come up with real solutions to address them. I do see some signs of stabilization but the fact is we are still in a Depression (IMO). While the deterioration of the economy has slowed & most have learn to adapt besides the stock market, there are no signs of real improvement. History will show this period to be a Depression - of that I am certain!
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1184 - 10/18/09 03:33 PMHOOVER WAS MOST LIKELY CORRECT FOR THE LONG RUN BUT THE COST IN THE SHORT TERM.. THE DEPRESSION COULD HAVE BEEN OVER IN TWO YEARS NOT 10 YEARS OF INTERNATIONAL TRADE WARS!! THEN THE GUNS AND REAL KILLING.. HE DID NOT HAVE A SHORT TERM PLAN TO BRIDGE THE GAP.. NOW WE NEED A LONG TERM GROWTH PLAN.. LETS START WITH EDUCATION.. 2 YEAR TRADE SCHOOLS ARE GREAT TO RETRAIN AND RETEACH THE EXUBERANCE OF NOW GETTING THE EDUCATION YOU MISSED AT THE AGE OF 18. JUST A THOUGHT, Bi Metal Au Pt
BGA4444Message #1186 - 10/19/09 01:31 PMThe unemployment rate on 16-24 year olds is thru the roof somewhere between 18-46 %. There is talk of a lost generation of workers. I am telling you this is third world crap heading right at us. Children need to LEARN just like the Asians and the Indians, education first! A good start is put all of them in uniforms. Mandatory hair lengths, skirt lengths, and drug testing. If you are not there to learn get out and start being all you can be on the street-maybe a little military time would be appropriate. Somebody better start changing something or our children will have little or no hope.
mchinskyMessage #1187 - 10/19/09 01:40 PMIceland? Population 100 or something?
mchinskyMessage #1188 - 10/19/09 01:44 PMBGA, I have to agree with you. I have 4 boys under the age of 9. Going to Catholic school (and I'm not catholic) because I don't need them wasting half of their time saluting Obama and the other half discussing which rapper is better and how far down their ass they can where their jeans without them falling off. The school doesn't put up with Bullying, cellphones, bad moral behavior etc. They can say Santa Claus and if you don't like it you can f'ing leave. The kids do some sports (tennis and golf), but I insist on sports they can use after high school The odds of any one of our kids being an NFL or Major League player are virtually nil so why consume so much of their childhood afterschool time running around the country playing baseball or football on the slimmest hope of getting a scholorship in those rediculously competitive sports. Instead, we work with them hours after school and they do Sylvan in addition. Our kids are about the only Caucasians in those classes. America's non asians/indians are screwed in the next generation. Not because of prejudice or anything. But because our competition just has a tougher work ethic instilled in them.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:56:21 GMT -5
great depression1Message #1189 - 10/19/09 01:53 PMThe country has definately went to the third worlders.........
BGA4444Message #1190 - 10/19/09 02:05 PMMchinsky, I applaud your efforts-keep up the good work. I am all for credits to get your child in the education environment you deem best! I have raised five children here in Atlanta. Doing that gave me great insight into schools and teachers that were "worth their salt" so to speak. If you can not afford the private schools seek out the best public schools in the district. If you can not get there seek out the best teachers in your school. If you are involved with PTA they will let you dictate teachers but you must raise a stink with the principle to get the one you want. Be involved with your children never ease up, let up, or give up. Good luck to all with children now and God bless you and them!
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1191 - 10/20/09 12:51 PMwww.msnbc.msn.com/id/33377328/ns/business-personal_finance/ The next broadest measure, U-4, adds ·discouraged workers· who have given up looking. As of last month, that jobless rate was 10.2 percent. The next measure, U-5, which hit 11.1 percent last month, adds in ·all other marginally attached workers.· That·s BLS-speak for ·persons who currently are neither working nor looking for work but indicate that they want and are available for a job and have looked for work sometime in the recent past.· The broadest measure, U-6, adds in people who are ·employed part time for economic reasons.· That rate hit 17.0 percent last month. So the data is available if you·re willing to dig a little. There are plenty of economists and analysts who take issue with the ·official· number. John Williams, who runs a Web site called [www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data] Shadow Government Statistics, does his own calculations each month that adjusts U-6 to include an estimate of the number of ·long-term· discouraged workers - those who have been in that category for more than a year - and fall off the BLS radar. By his count, the unemployment rate hit 21.4 percent last month. In the end these are only estimates. But it seems clear the "official" estimate is not a true reflection of the number of people who want and need a fulltime paycheck but don't have one. We·re hearing a lot of talk these days about how ·the Great Recession is over.· But it·s hard to see how we can have an economic recovery if more than one in five people aren·t earning enough money to pay the bills.
Almost two years into this now and besides the Stock Market there seems to be no recovery. Since it took almost a Trillion dollars to "Save or create" about 30,000 jobs in the past year it looks like we will have to spend 100's of Trillions to bring back the 8 million jobs lost! Of course this is impossible, even for this Administration, so where do we go from here?
BGA4444Message #1192 - 10/20/09 01:33 PMThe strange thing is no matter what the news the market goes up! Can someone explain this?
ozone7Message #1193 - 10/20/09 01:57 PMThe strange thing is no matter what the news the market goes up! Can someone explain this? It is going up because of all the positive news you are not seeing or hearing. It is not going up magically. If you dwell on the negative that is all you will see.
BGA4444Message #1194 - 10/20/09 02:04 PMOzone, the news was absolutely great just before the crash! Ohh I get it the market goes down on good news and up on bad news. Completely rational to me! LOL
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1195 - 10/20/09 03:25 PMIt is going up because of all the positive news you are not seeing or hearing. It is not going up magically. If you dwell on the negative that is all you will see. Then by all means, we are tuned to your every word. Please list all the positive news here that you are speaking of! I'm serious, I want to hear it, please list all the details here for us to examine for ourselves! Not Rhetoric but actual good news facts.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1196 - 10/20/09 04:00 PMWASHINGTON - The level of poverty in America is even worse than first believed. A revised formula for calculating medical costs and geographic variations show that approximately 47.4 million Americans last year lived in poverty, 7 million more than the government's official figure. The disparity occurs because of differing formulas the Census Bureau and the National Academy of Sciences use for calculating the poverty rate. The NAS formula shows the poverty rate to be at 15.8 percent, or nearly 1 in 6 Americans, according to calculations released this week. That's higher than the 13.2 percent, or 39.8 million, figure made available recently under the original government formula More good news to fuel the Stock Market. - I hear building permits for homeless shelters are up also! 1 of every 5 Americans are without a job 1 of every 6 Americans are living in poverty. Who knows how many of us are one pay check away from joining the ranks of the homeless.
wallym415Message #1197 - 10/20/09 04:36 PMIt is a good thing everyone doesn't think like you do we will all be living in a shoe box before this is all over. I put my trust in the lord and what he says is true not just a man's perception of what is going to happen. I'm going to keep paying my ties at church and work hard each day and work towards getting out of dept an staying out. If everyone would follow what the bible says to do we'd all be in a lot better shape.
great depression1Message #1198 - 10/20/09 04:50 PMAs a new professional begger on wall st,will some of you wealthy investors toss a few stimulus quarters our way.....we promise not to break your fall from the windows above when the dow crashes again.
BGA4444Message #1199 - 10/20/09 05:03 PMCaterpillar is down 53% on profits and 44% on sales. Now that is something we can hang our hats on! Yahoo green shoots!
outaheresoonMessage #1200 - 10/20/09 05:10 PMIf everyone would follow what the bible says to do we'd all be in a lot better shape. Ilike the part where it says "Owe no man anything". That's the part I hope to achieve by the end of this year. Banks are slavemasters and their reign over me will be ending soon.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:57:14 GMT -5
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1201 - 10/20/09 05:55 PMBanks are slavemasters and their reign over me will be ending soon. To this I say Amen!
BGA4444Message #1202 - 10/20/09 09:31 PMI have been offering one year no pay no interest financing on flooring thru GE for nine years. They (GE) are now paying nothing to borrow money. But the amount they have been charging my company and my customers if they are late is legalized robbery!
BGA4444Message #1203 - 10/22/09 01:09 PMUnemployment in the jewel of the south "Atlanta" just went to 10.5 %. It was also stated that without Atlanta the rest of Georgia is poorer than Missippi. Wow and that's with 1/2 the population from up north. I wonder if New York is still busing all their homeless here?
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1204 - 10/22/09 01:24 PMI believe GE is desperate. They could very well be filing bankruptcy soon.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1205 - 10/22/09 01:49 PMWASHINGTON - The number of newly laid-off workers filing claims for jobless benefits rose more than expected last week, after falling in five of the past six weeks, as employers remain reluctant to hire even with the economy showing signs of recovery. The Labor Department said Thursday that new jobless claims rose to a seasonally adjusted 531,000 last week, from an upwardly revised 520,000 the previous week. Wall Street economists had expected only a slight increase, according to Thomson Reuters. Funny how every single week the the previous numbers are " upwardly Revised" . The government needs to stop playing games.
great depression1Message #1206 - 10/22/09 02:54 PMthey been doing it all along.................since nobama came to office.
BGA4444Message #1207 - 10/22/09 03:12 PMI know that like me a lot of employee's compensation packages are tied to bonuses and commission based on sales. I just talked to another rep that calls on my flooring store and almost to a man they are making 35 to 45% less money. This downward spiral in wages along with the average hourly employee working less than 32 hours a week is not even factored into unemployment. If you take all that in we are probably earning less than 30% of what we were making three years ago. No wonder retail sales are down with low fourth quarter expectations!
great depression1Message #1209 - 10/22/09 03:26 PManything is better than NOBAMA.........even his dog.
BGA4444Message #1210 - 10/22/09 03:31 PMHey you are right. The democrats are spending money like they are republicans!
BGA4444Message #1212 - 10/22/09 09:02 PMCaterpillar and Boeing are prime examples of what is going on here and the rest of the world! These two manufacturers are two of our largest exporters of products made in America that other countries buy. The problem is they are getting killed by the down turn. There go more jobs out the window!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:58:06 GMT -5
Stay PutMessage #1213 - 10/22/09 10:15 PMI wonder if New York is still busing all their homeless here? No, but you have given me an idea as to what we can do with all of the Liberals up here
BGA4444Message #1214 - 10/23/09 01:24 PMStay, if you do that only you and Rudy will be left! LOL
hvfpaintsMessage #1216 - 10/24/09 02:39 PMThey need to run for political office!! Great pay and benefits. Maybe if they do, we'll get some of those old dinosaurs out of office and a few people in who know how to work for a living!
great depression1Message #1218 - 10/24/09 03:52 PMNobama needs to take the government and cut just like the businessess are doing so he can post some fake profits like the rest of wall street..........lmao
BGA4444Message #1219 - 10/26/09 03:54 PMCapmark just filed chapter 11 after losing 1.6 Billion. Goldman Sachs and KKR lost a bundle on that one!
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1220 - 10/26/09 04:39 PMPEORIA, Ill. - Caterpillar Inc. said Monday about 2,500 laid-off employees will be permanently cut from the company and 550 others will be brought back to work by the end of next year. The workers are among more than 22,000 laid off earlier this year as Caterpillar dramatically scaled back production due to weaker demand amid the global economic downturn. The Peoria, Ill.-based company has cut 16 percent of its work force, which now stands at just above 94,000. But last week Caterpillar, the world's largest maker of mining and construction equipment, said it was seeing "encouraging signs" that a recovery may be under way, even as it reported a 53 percent decline in third-quarter earnings. More "Recovery" news!
BGA4444Message #1221 - 10/26/09 07:10 PMWhy is the market down today? It looks to me as if more of the same great news from the last six months!
BGA4444Message #1222 - 10/27/09 01:26 PMFiat to kill Dodge line and sell Fiats in the US. Then why may I ask did the government help?What a waste of my and your money!
BGA4444Message #1223 - 10/27/09 07:58 PMConsumer confidence just slipped to 47.7 down 6 points from Sept. and the lowest since May. Consumers are concerned about jobs and future wages. I guess the talk of green shoots only goes so far. When everyone keeps seeing jobs lost every week. The reality begins to sit in and the holiday season should play a huge roll on everyone's reality!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:58:59 GMT -5
rjslrsMessage #1226 - 10/28/09 10:37 AMMy favorite quote: " America is at an awkward stage, too late to turn things around and too early to shoot the bastards"
BGA4444Message #1227 - 10/28/09 01:17 PMRJ, I don't think it is too early to shoot them. If the politicians in Washington were tried for treason against America the firing squad would be their last public forum!
BGA4444Message #1228 - 10/28/09 08:08 PMNow as we proceed down the middle of the "W" where are all the green shoots today I ask?
Stay PutMessage #1229 - 10/28/09 09:24 PMNow as we proceed down the middle of the "W" where are all the green shoots today I ask? BGA, do you remember those kiddy bikes that could peddle both forwards and backwards? Now you know where those green shoots are today.
BGA4444Message #1230 - 10/29/09 01:26 PMDid anyone see GDP report ex autos? I am sure the government created bubble had a massive effect on the number. Hey just remember the recession is over all the unemployed are figments of your imagination!
EEVESTMessage #1232 - 10/30/09 12:13 PMYes since 1933 when FDR destroyed the dollar, real 100 cents of gold and silver for a 59 cents dollar with political backing of paper and Wodrow Wilson's area of Federal Reserve (what ever that means) backing we the people have been had big time. The only value the dollar has today is the show of power as I see it. It has no real value and our forefathers had the forsight to include the value of what our money system was to be.....GOLD. So 75 years of illegal money thrown all over the globe and people still think people like Obama can run the money printing so fast they will outrun reality must be from a school not teaching facts. I'm in my eighty's and folks life is more that reaching higher and higher for larger houses, forty thousand dollar auto that should cost two or three thousand dollars. We need a wage change to a dollar a day if you work for it and the price of what we buy to drop to that standard. Let the stock market go. Let the unions get real on what workers need, not what they want. Get factories going "made in USA" and other countries keep your products away from the USA unless you share the profits you make. Limit all political offices to two elected terms and strip the benifites back to a dollar for each day they was elected for service of the two terms. Also anyone appointed to fill a vancant job, not be allowed to run for that office in the following election. As for the National Debt, forget it as it is so far out no space craft can reach it.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1233 - 10/30/09 12:51 PMQuestion?? Does anyone know if GDP increased during the Great Depression ?? What were the Positive signs that the government pointed to back then before their fake walls came crumbling down?
BGA4444Message #1234 - 10/30/09 02:38 PMEEVEST, thanks for the post. My dad is going to be eighty in December. He is a great depression baby, born in 1929. He served in Europe at the end of WWII. Then was called to korea! He says he can not believe that this has happened again! He blames most of it rightfully on the politicians. However, the one thing he has not ruled out is GOD. This country kills millions of babies every year. Also, has taken GOD out of schools, workplaces, and the courts. The only place this country says GOD is ok is on money-the root of all evil. And we want to spread our "freedoms" in the holy lands of the world. I am afraid on the GOD thing he may be right. Currently, even with huge gdp growth consumer spending dropped a half a point in september, This drop was the worst in nine months. This is terrible news going into the holiday season!
RatchetsMessage #1235 - 10/30/09 02:52 PMRefresh my memory again on how we kill millions of babies a year? And we wouldn't be spreading our freedoms in the holy land, if they wouldn't invade Kuwait or fly jets into our buildings. If you think they are the good guys though you are more than welcome to move there.
BGA4444Message #1236 - 10/30/09 04:58 PMHey ratchets ever heard of abortions? The key word on your next statement is they flew "OUR" jets. I blame us more than them for our stupidity! How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens and Afghan citizens who are innocent need to die to make up for the 3000 american lives taken by 19 idiots from Saudi Arabia? This is another vietnam we can never win the war on terror. When this great country actually declares WAR we send a million men to kick butt. Would that make you happy just to kill them all? If so you are satan!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:59:51 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #1237 - 10/30/09 07:09 PMThe last hour today may get really nasty!
Stay PutMessage #1238 - 10/30/09 09:17 PMOK. It's a depression. Does that mean the end of the world as we know it? I don't think so. The most amazing thing that I have seen and studied, is that in the midst of even the worst crisis's, the American people have always brought forth that ineffable quality of an indomitable spirit. After the initial shock factor, we have always joined as a community, county, state, and nation, in pulling ourselves up out the the mess (regardless of what that may entail), and keep working until we can get it behind us. We will do it again. Instead of looking at your neighbors as your enemies, and part of the problem; start looking at them as your allies, and part of the solution. Many hands make for light work, and it will take a whole lot of work, for many years, to get us out of this mess. Just my thoughts.
BGA4444Message #1239 - 10/31/09 03:56 AMStay I agree , refer to my first post here for my suggestions.
Stay PutMessage #1240 - 10/31/09 03:38 PMSo now that you know the bad news and accepted it here is what you can do for you and your family. If you got relatives who are in bad shape move em in with you before it gets worse. Get ALL your money out of the stock market NOW. You can jump back in later when the turn happens and believe me you will know the bottom everyone will. Do not make any major purchases prices are falling you can buy it cheaper later. Prepare for the absolute worse things to happen there could be food shortages and even rioting in the streets of America. BGA, although you did list a couple of good points, your list is too incomplete. I'll start another string to try to cover that.
BGA4444Message #1241 - 10/31/09 04:31 PMStay, sounds good I would like to see it!
Stay PutMessage #1242 - 10/31/09 04:36 PMThen check it out because it's up. "Pre/Post Crash".......... Scroll down a few and you will see it.
Murphy MartinMessage #1244 - 11/02/09 11:11 AMHey just remember the recession is over all the unemployed are figments of your imagination! The recession may be over, and all the unemployed are really there. These are two different things.
BGA4444Message #1245 - 11/02/09 02:26 PMI will tell you this. The recession is NOT over. Soon all will see that jobs will be a leading indicator into a depression that has already started!
BGA4444Message #1246 - 11/03/09 03:01 PMGoldman (sacks-Americans) is being sued by clients who they sold derivatives to. GS claims these derivatives were sold with their clients best interest in mind. They make this claim when they new full well the derivatives were worth far less than what they sold them for. In many cases they were worthless!
kstopeMessage #1247 - 11/03/09 03:43 PMit is pessimist like you that make everything worse than it really is. just like the media does. chicken little!
Solstice Tesla_DC-MemeMessage #1248 - 11/03/09 04:22 PMEEVEST, thanks for the post. My dad is going to be eighty in December. He is a great depression baby, born in 1929. He served in Europe at the end of WWII. Then was called to korea! He says he can not believe that this has happened again! He blames most of it rightfully on the politicians. However, the one thing he has not ruled out is GOD. This country kills millions of babies every year. Also, has taken GOD out of schools, workplaces, and the courts. The only place this country says GOD is ok is on money-the root of all evil. And we want to spread our "freedoms" in the holy lands of the world. I am afraid on the GOD thing he may be right. So we are in a "Depression" because we have made "GOD" angry? Money is the "root of all evil"? Really? I find your opinions interesting. Blame away. Blame your government. Blame Evil. Blame your God. That would make you the helpless victim wouldn't it? Poor, poor you. How is this working out for you? Have you made any money ("root of all evil") in the markets? In my humble opinion: I believe that God would forgive you, if you had a successful investment strategy.   ps Depression is also a state of mind.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:00:44 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #1249 - 11/03/09 04:42 PMKstope I thought the media was reporting green shoots everywhere! The sky is falling, evidently you live in a different America than I do. For the folks that are homeless, jobless, and penniless with little hope I believe the sky has already fail! Telsa, as for as me, yes I have made a lot of money. Enough to have raised five children comfortably in a Atlanta suburb. All doing well and most going to college. My life is the happiest it has been in years. I am also making the least amount of money I have made in years. But, two of my children who are grown adults live with me and we all share in expenses- money is not a problem! You know I have not seen one liberal/athiest refuse to spend or accept that "In GOD we trust" cash!
BGA4444Message #1250 - 11/04/09 04:03 PMChina and India will soon become the new world leaders in industry ,production, and consumption. The two billion plus inhabitants that will work for pennies a day and are glad to do it will simply shut our uneducated population down. What we are seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg. As intelligent as some of these two countries people are it is just a matter of time before they come up with something that will be world changing energy wise. When this happens our economy, which is tied so much into petroleum, as well as other oil producing economies will finish the collapse that has just been started. The populations in those countries are as hungry to learn as we were in the late and 1900's. Just think for a minute what a few million men were able to come up with in America with limited intelligence. Now think about the information flying around the world and how it can be used by the hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indians. Just imagine if you will what the informed masses will be able to come up with. It is really very exciting but the outlook is very bad for America.
Solstice Tesla_DC-MemeMessage #1251 - 11/04/09 04:31 PMSo we are in a "Depression" because we have made "GOD" angry? Money is the "root of all evil"? Really? You neglected to answer the questions that would require a straight answer. And that whole "camel through the eye of a needle" thing, is just some kind of take it or leave it poetry? Hypocrisy is a stigma that no prayer can erase.
BGA4444Message #1252 - 11/04/09 05:59 PMSorry Telsa I did not realize you wanted a answer to the helpless victim question. The answer is no I am not a victim of anything. However, If you are not outraged by what our government is doing with Wall st. you must work for a recipient of those funds. Do you? Simple yes or no answer!
BGA4444Message #1253 - 11/04/09 07:49 PMThe FED says the economy is doing great but, so bad we are leaving rates alone!
Murphy MartinMessage #1254 - 11/05/09 10:51 AMIt doesn't feel like a depression. It feels like being better off every month than one was the previous month.
1939sMessage #1255 - 11/05/09 11:44 AMIt doesn't feel like a depression. It feels like being better off every month than one was the previous month. Okay I'll bite ... Murphy's Law right 
BGA4444Message #1256 - 11/05/09 03:42 PMPeople are out of work and unemployment benefits-falling off the continuing claims rolls and that makes things all better. How ridiculous. This market is like the Forrest Gump movie- filled with lies and conjecture. Run Forrest run!
Solstice Tesla_DC-MemeMessage #1257 - 11/05/09 03:45 PMYour evasive responses are enough for me. This thread is nothing but pointless whining outrageous blasphemies. Just keep on complaining until your dreams come true.
Stay PutMessage #1258 - 11/05/09 04:59 PMBGA4444, the desperation of some on this board is pitiful. By the constant attacks, denials, and then hiding when blatant facts cannot be repudiated by anyone, or revisionist theories, I can just imagine how some of these people responded when the truth of Santy Clause was first exposed to them. I don't even want to see how these same people will melt down when all of the facts posted by the "Doom & Gloom" comes to pass. It reminds me of a couple that a very close friend of mine knew, back in the 80's. This one couple went on about Jim & Tammy Faye Baker of the PTL Club. After much pressuring, he sat down and watched the 'show' one time with them. When they asked him what he thought, he told them that Jim & Tammy were snake oil salesmen. he said that they were a couple of con artists. The response of that couple, who just 'loved' the PTL (Jim & Tammy) was so hostile, you would think that he just murdered their whole family. The most civil thing that they said to him, during their ranting, was how he was supposedly too new a Christian to ever be able to discern anything like that. Some weeks later, in their attempt to sway him again, they invited him to go on a road trip with them. He liked to travel back then, so he agreed. He ended up at a place called Heritage USA, down in South Carolina. They just couldn't wait to show him their $2.50 plaque, hanging on a wall at one of the buildings down there, that cost them only $10,000. What he saw was so disgusting a display of money changing, he could not get out of there soon enough. As he reported, If all of the secular world got together, and tried to totally commercialize Christianity, and perpetrate one sacrilege after another, they would come up as rank armatures compared to the PTL Club, and their Heritage USA. Funny thing. When the scandal of the PTL, and Jim & Tammy broke, he could not believe what he witnessed and heard from these two "Christians". The hatred, venom, and murder in their hearts was so full, he realized then how and why they were so easily conned. It was then, he told that couple that "now is the time that Jim and Tammy needed their forgiveness and prayers" Apparently, that Christian couple were incapable of of either. The same people on this board, who have bought the lies about the stock markets and the economy, will end up just like that supposed Christian couple who were/are incapable of reconciliation. After getting all that they believed stomped on, they will be worthless in working together in getting us out of this mess in a manner that will be good for all of America.
BGA4444Message #1259 - 11/05/09 07:48 PMTesla dc you did not answer my question-Do you work for the GOV. or a financial institution?
BGA4444Message #1260 - 11/06/09 01:59 PM10.2 unemployment but hey do not worry the market is doing fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:01:36 GMT -5
outaheresoonMessage #1261 - 11/06/09 02:15 PMDepression? What depression? The new government health plan gives me free Prozac. We don't need no stinking depression.
the leprechaunMessage #1262 - 11/06/09 02:29 PMWe have seen nothing yet. We are neither weak nor stupid...so let's buck up and tell the rest of the world that we can not nor will not fail ourselves. Yes; we are in a depression and it will get much worse so we pick our asses up and help each other out. Here. Now. Not other countries. We do it from within and I do not want to hear about any global bullshit - it is on our back's...and we like it that way if you remember.
BGA4444Message #1263 - 11/06/09 02:47 PMThe market is up on double digit unemployment news! There must be a green shoot I am missing!
ill investorMessage #1264 - 11/06/09 08:13 PMOK, after months of reading, I have to at least comment. I'm a middle class guy, upper/lower would be all in your perspective. I try to teach my children enduring themes and principles. It's the best I can do in a rapidly changing world. BUT- even though I struggle (somewhat) to maintain a lifestyle that is very comfortable, I wonder when the collapse of the very group just below me will have dramatic impacts on my lifestyle. For instance, where is the buyer of my upscale house that I bought at the height of the real estate boom? No where. Where is the Government bailout to allow me to place my kids in the private, supposedly better that public school systems? No where. So I'm faced with the choice Americans have had to face for generations- Time to get bigger or smaller. But it is still my choice. I was in Baltimore a few weeks ago dropping my family off for the So You Think You Can Dance program and taking the youngest to the ESPN Zone for games and I was approached by a couple who said they had travelled from Virginia to Maryland and needed money to eat. My gut reaction was to open my wallet and help. But I didn't believe thier story. I want to help my neighbors, but the promises from the Federal Government lead me to believe that these people just aren't working hard enough to access the "bounty" of the current the administration, so why should I help?
Murphy MartinMessage #1265 - 11/08/09 11:41 AMIt doesn't feel like a depression. It feels like being better off every month than one was the previous month. Okay I'll bite ... Murphy's Law right No law. Just my impression. Income rises and stuff I want to buy gets cheaper; meanwhile, asset prices are going up.
BGA4444Message #1266 - 11/08/09 11:04 PMWe will find out on monday if the 10.2 unemployment in the US is the shot heard around the world!
schrizoMessage #1267 - 11/09/09 01:03 AMIf you want an upbeat take on things read Markman's story on saving your money today. He says we are fools to be out of this market. He was right about the GNP being positive when he forecast that last August. This may be time to listen up.
schrizoMessage #1268 - 11/09/09 04:31 PMWell, did anyone read Markmans story on why saving is for fools?? Lets hear some arguments for and agains't. As long as the banks are getting interest free money it makes sense to me to be long the markets.
great depression1Message #1269 - 11/09/09 04:58 PMTheir all happy,the governments decided to take everybodys 401k money and spend it...since theres trillions there to comandear...........trading t-bills for hard earned american retirement cash.............sorry pops but that treasury bond isnt worth the paper its printed on.........and you have no value left in your retirement fund to cash out..uncle obama done took it...........but he says save more money america...so I can take that too........
Stay PutMessage #1270 - 11/09/09 09:16 PMDow up over 200. I was hoping that the worst case scenario would be a steady decline, but now it looks like those criminals will not settle for anyhing less than a total bust.
great depression1Message #1271 - 11/09/09 09:37 PMI just cant believe how much bernake has dumped into this market....now he is spending the retirees money.....
Stay PutMessage #1272 - 11/09/09 09:41 PMIt wouldn't surprise me if we get hit with a "special" tax, in the very near future, just to prop the markets up for yet another round. Hold on to your bloomers.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:02:28 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #1273 - 11/10/09 07:44 PMTaxes ,Taxes, and more Taxes are the only way states and local governments can begin to cover losses of revenue. They have cut to the bone, laid off, and painted themselves into a corner. There is no way out of this corner. Even the feds have begun to discuss reduction of deficits. No new jobs will be created for years so how do they come up with the money- tax us all to death. However, the new taxes will have the negative effect on the economy that will cost even more jobs! No way out, somebody nail our other foot down we are going around in circles!
BGA4444Message #1275 - 11/11/09 08:57 PMThe G7 have taken our money and GIVEN it to all other countries on earth! We are witnessing the greatest heist in the history of mankind! Just look at how their markets have grown in comparison to the US and the rest of the G7!
kman49Message #1276 - 11/11/09 09:32 PMPaterson: NYS Will Be Broke Before Christmas I agree with the mayor of NYC. The city and surrounding counties should secede. I would like to put out for competitive bid Western N.Y. We could be North Arizona or East Dakota. Set Rochester and Buffalo free!!
Stay PutMessage #1277 - 11/11/09 11:27 PMI agree with the mayor of NYC. kman49, I'll take it that you were being sarcastic, as Patterson is still the blind governor of NY. If they would only give him a set of scales, he could learn just how idiotic most of his ideas actually are.
BGA4444Message #1278 - 11/12/09 06:33 PMTen states are officially bankrupt and more on the way!
great depression1Message #1279 - 11/12/09 06:48 PMWHANNNNNNNNNN they havent even begun to cut waste from govmnt.............I could slice new york up and have it showing revenues in the billions in the black in one week if I was gov. No new taxes required
kman49Message #1280 - 11/12/09 10:50 PMThey can keep NYC. The rest of the State looks like an episode of Life Without People.
Stay PutMessage #1281 - 11/12/09 11:07 PMbillions in the black in one week if I was gov. Was that some kind of racial slur. You don't want to be upsetting our Liberal friends now.
txbizownrMessage #1282 - 11/12/09 11:25 PMWASHINGTON (AP) -- The federal deficit hit a record for October as the new budget year began where the old one ended: with the government awash in red ink. Economists worry that if such deficits continue it could push up interest rates, further dragging on the fragile economic recovery. The Treasury Department said Thursday that the deficit for October totaled $176.4 billion, even higher than the $150 billion imbalance that economists expected. With deficits like this how long do you think they can hold interest rates down??
Stay PutMessage #1283 - 11/12/09 11:42 PMIf the RED, excuse me I mean the FED was forced to raise interest rates to 20% in 1979 under Carter's tutelage, handing Reagan a nice little recession to deal with, the interest rate today, would have to be set between 150% - 200% just to reel the money back in. I'm going to need a new wheel barrow to carry all of that cash when I go to buy a loaf of bread.
kman49Message #1284 - 11/12/09 11:42 PMWith deficits like this how long do you think they can hold interest rates down?? Just long enough for some genius to tell us " debt is good with low rates and inflation. Because you pay it off with cheaper dollars every year".
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:03:21 GMT -5
Murphy MartinMessage #1285 - 11/13/09 10:56 AMTen states are officially bankrupt and more on the way! For goodness sake, I hope the Federal government doesn't provide a bailout to the states.
Veteran_LenderMessage #1286 - 11/13/09 01:24 PMI doubt if it made international news Murphy, but family types stormed into Michigan Congressional Offices yesterday demanding them to get off their ***** and generate new revenue streams that didn't involve a tax or fee. We are one of the ten but our Governor has done some incredible things to thin the overhead without crashing the state. Our House and Senate have done NOTHING to offset the cuts with new income. Through October, my specific area has the highest unemployment in the nation but the least stimuli dollars infused to recover it. I don't want a bail-out, I want relief from banksters and the chance to lift ourselves up so we can vote these politicos-- out.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1287 - 11/13/09 01:32 PMOkay, This month marks two years of " Recession" - The only "growth" we had was when the government poured billions ( or was it Trillions?) into the the Clunkers and the stimulus program for one quarter. It is time to call this a Depression - maybe then we can take our medicine. I heard on the Radio this morning that the government said it takes 100,000 jobs created each month to keep up with new entries into the job market due to population growth and they would expect the job situation to improve when we were adding 50,000 new jobs per month. This has to be some new form of government math because I still see them as being short on the jobs and how does this take care of the 10 million or so people out of work? It seems to me we must add over 600,000 jobs per month for the next two years just to catch up to where we were. If this is not the definition of a Depression this it must be the definition of Insanity!
BGA4444Message #1288 - 11/13/09 02:19 PMFalling, I agree insanity is doing the same things over and over again expecting a different result. The government needs to do something very different. VL, you are right, the people of Michigan are strong and proud just like you. They just like many other Americans in this country don't need a handout, just a hand. You know, Americans want to work. It gives us self-worth and pride. Many are starting to commit suicide and it just makes me sick. I believe every one of the top 100 companies should be forced to hire 5000 people per month until further notice. Next 100 companies 2500 ,next 100 companies 1250, next 100 companies 625 ,next 100 companies 367. By doing this it would add 974,200 jobs per month. This would cure our country's unemployment problems in a few months. I believe one year of this and our economy would be on fire again. The top 500 Wall st. companies have benefited the most from the bailouts so they should be required to help the most. This action would make American actually like the government and big business again. Also freeze on layoffs at these companies no one gets laid off or fired unless they are going to jail for a crime!
Goofy GooberMessage #1289 - 11/13/09 02:55 PMI believe every one of the top 100 companies should be forced to hire 5000 people per month until further notice. Next 100 companies 2500 ,next 100 companies 1250, next 100 companies 625 ,next 100 companies 367. By doing this it would add 974,200 jobs per month. This would cure our country's unemployment problems in a few months. I believe one year of this and our economy would be on fire again. The top 500 Wall st. companies have benefited the most from the bailouts so they should be required to help the most. This action would make American actually like the government and big business again. Also freeze on layoffs at these companies no one gets laid off or fired unless they are going to jail for a crime! God, you're starting to sound like Nancy Pelosi and her health care bill that puts people in jail for not buying government health insurance! You can't force companies to hire people especially if hurts their bottom line. What are they going to pay them with? Turnips? Oh, I know, how about IOU's? I have a feeling that when Obamie kicks it up a notch or two with his tax increases coming next year that unemployment will probably skyrocket. It might be in everyone's interest to be debt free by then if they can.
BGA4444Message #1290 - 11/13/09 03:15 PMBut you can force them to take our d a m n money whats the diffo force is force!
BGA4444Message #1291 - 11/13/09 03:23 PMSick I just got mad but you need a vision. Do you not see that all companies would benefit greatly! Even the companies that were forced to hire would be rolling in the profits. You just like the politicians are blind. Do you like the water you drink? Do you like the air you breath? If the government did not "force" companies to do things you would be living in a Chinese environment of pollution! I bet you are gonna spend that social security when you get it that the government forced companies to pay!
BGA4444Message #1292 - 11/13/09 06:35 PMJC penney profits down 78% but sales right on target! What a joke.
Murphy MartinMessage #1293 - 11/14/09 10:06 AMI doubt if it made international news Murphy For what it's worth, US news is available outside the USA! My TV package includes CNN, Fox, Bloomberg... and BBC and Al Jazeera. And of course I have Internet access here in Commie-ville.
ozone7Message #1294 - 11/14/09 01:27 PMI believe every one of the top 100 companies should be forced to hire 5000 people per month until further notice. Next 100 companies 2500 ,next 100 companies 1250, next 100 companies 625 ,next 100 companies 367. Never been in business for yourself, have you?
ozone7Message #1295 - 11/14/09 01:52 PMTaxes ,Taxes, and more Taxes are the only way states and local governments can begin to cover losses of revenue. BGA, I tend to agree with you on this one. Unfortunately, starting with the conservative republicans in the '80s, taxes have become a dirty word in this country although they have always been a necessity. They convinced us that we could keep cutting taxes on the rich and that somehow there would be a "trickle down" theory where we would all become wealthy and prosperous. We are now paying the price.
BGA4444Message #1296 - 11/14/09 02:50 PMOzone, look at any fortune 500 company even the ones who were about to go belly-up before we stepped in and saved their butts. To a company even the ones who went out of business were paying dividends right up to locking the doors! HOW? I have never owned a fortune 500 company you are right.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:04:13 GMT -5
ozone7Message #1297 - 11/14/09 04:05 PMIf we start to mandate how many people corporations should hire, we might as well kiss capitalism and it's sorry gilded arse bye-bye. If I was forced to hire even one extra person right now I would go belly-up before winter was over. Granted, I am not a fortune 500 company, put the dynamics of profit and it's relationship to labor costs are still in effect. The profit margin in most businesses is very small or nonexistent. Labor must be constantly adjusted to attempt to eke out small profits. If you force people to hire that would cause everybody to lose money. We are talking a bad USSR hangover here.
BGA4444Message #1298 - 11/14/09 05:34 PMCapitalism oh you mean where companies who go belly up actually fail you mean that one? I can tell you we are no longer in a capitalistic society. Believe what you will!
ozone7Message #1299 - 11/14/09 07:41 PMcompanies who go belly up actually fail you mean that one? Nobody is bailing me out( I am open to any offers ). And there are millions of businesses as small as mine or smaller. I bet if you looked at the fraction of companies that were bailed out vs. those forced to go bankrupt it would be a small fraction of 1% that are "too big to fail". I don't know about you guys, but I had a lot of money in with Bank Of America and Countrywide(more than that which was covered by FDIC). I am very glad that me and others like me did not lose their deposits. GM is another story. Believe me, there would have been absolute pandemonium, riots, etc. if the big banks and brokerages were allowed to fail.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1300 - 11/14/09 08:01 PM don't know about you guys, but I had a lot of money in with Bank Of America and Countrywide(more than that which was covered by FDIC). I am very glad that me and others like me did not lose their deposits Hopefully you took this as a learning experience not to keep more than the FDIC insures in any one account.
BGA4444Message #1301 - 11/14/09 08:44 PMFalling, then you were bailed out too! Your welcome spend my share wisely!
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1302 - 11/14/09 10:12 PMFalling, then you were bailed out too! Your welcome spend my share wisely! No, I'm out of the stock market ( and have been for some time) and for the foreseeable future and what money I have is in Real Estate ( Rental Properties) or a Credit Union. We were all Bailed out though, even against our will, in some form or fashion weren't we?
itstippyMessage #1304 - 11/15/09 02:31 AMWe were all Bailed out though, even against our will, in some form or fashion weren't we? No, we were not all bailed out. We were all sold out. It's certainly not the first time that's happened. We expect our government and central bank to provide us with a sound currency and a stable financial system. We believe they can achieve this through prudent, consistent fiscal policy and regulation of the financial system. They cannot. It never works for long. The short-term payoff of easy-money policies and lax regulation is just too alluring. So they sell us out; they turn up the easy-money spigots and deregulate the financial system so that we'll have wonderful prosperity during their tenure. Boom and bust, boom and bust, that's the economic pattern. We had an incredible 20-year bull run thanks to easy-money policies and lax regulation. The biggest bull run in our Nation's history. Now comes the bust. Shoot, three years ago Bernanke was stroking his beard and learnedly babbling about "The Great Moderation" of World economies thanks to informed fiscal policies and modern financial systems. The central bank was going to engineer a "soft landing" of the bull run so nobody got hurt. What a bunch of fantasy thinking.
Stay PutMessage #1305 - 11/15/09 06:11 AM I don't know about you guys, but I had a lot of money in with Bank Of America and Countrywide(more than that which was covered by FDIC). I am very glad that me and others like me did not lose their deposits ozone7, it seems to me that I heard someone, months ago, calling for everyone to get their money out of the banks, while they still could. Oh that's right. That was me. Now who was it that eviscerated me; ridiculed me, and laughed at me for making that call? Hmm. I wonder. I have no pity on know it all's who didn't listen then, or won't listen now. Anyone who has been hurt, or does get hurt by refusing to listen to all of us "Doom & Gloom", don't come on here after the fact crying about it. For over a year you people have been warned, but you knew/know better. You people refused to even consider getting yourselves set up for the worst possible economic depression ever to hit this country, and now it's too late. What happens to all of you delusional types, who bought the lies of "recovery", will make a violent prison 'love' scene seem consensually romantic, compared to what is going to happen to you people. Remember, don't blame the government, because all of you have been warned for over a year, and yet you have still done nothing to prepare for the worst. The only ones that I feel sorry for are your families. Some of you will watch your family starve. I have asked people on this board, multiple times. What will it hurt to get yourselves totally prepared for a disaster? Not just the economic disaster that will hit this country, but disaster of any kind. You buy insurance for your cars and houses, not because you believe that you will be in a horrific accident, or because you believe that your house will burn down, but because those things can happen even if you take every precaution to avoid those things. Forces outside of your control can still cause that horrific accident, or your house burning down, and that's with you people having as much control over your driving and your houses as you do. So I ask you believers. How much actual control do any of you honestly think you have over any part of the economy? With the economy, there is no wheel for you to turn nor brake that you can slam on. There's no fire extinguisher nor water hose that you can grab to fight the flames. You have zero control over any part of our economy, and yet you people still take out no insurance to cover even the possibility of a total economic melt down, and you call us fools and doom and gloom.
Stay PutMessage #1306 - 11/15/09 11:21 PM
In [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics] economics, a depression is a sustained, long-term downturn in economic activity in one or more economies. It is a more severe downturn than a [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession] recession, which is seen as part of a normal [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle] business cycle.
Considered a rare and extreme form of recession, a depression is characterized by its length, and by abnormal increases in [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment] unemployment, falls in the availability of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_(finance)] credit, shrinking output and investment, numerous [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcies] bankruptcies, reduced amounts of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade] trade and commerce, as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations, mostly [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devaluation] devaluations. Price [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation_(economics)] deflation, [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis] financial crisis and [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_failure] bank failures are also common elements of a depression. Again, what part of a "normal business cycle" is this economy suppose to be in? We ARE in a Depression.
schrizoMessage #1307 - 11/16/09 03:50 AMAnd yet the sun rises. As they say eventually bad things happen. Eventually we are all dead. Surviving is not necessarily the goal for people living in pain. I have always been a survivor always waiting for the worst to happen. There are always wars and rumors of wars. But in the end we are the only ones that control whether we will define our lives as worthwhile or not. (Imagined disasters are usually worse than actual) Remember that prophets are not known in their own times. History may have a place for your forecasts but for me being open to both the bad possibilities as well as the good is where I want to be. Life does not have to suck even in sucky times. Don't scare the children.
Stay PutMessage #1308 - 11/16/09 05:12 AMSurviving is not necessarily the goal for people living in pain. I disagree for two real reasons. First; When people go a couple of days with out food, they will steal for it. When they go without food for a week, they will kill for it. So, I and my loved ones could be put at risk simply because the 'know it all's' who failed to heed all of the warning signs, for the past year, failed to prepare for the onslaught to come. They have stored no food reserves in which to feed themselves, and the government will probably only be able to supply a starvation diet for a limited amount of time. Some, in the inner cities, will realize that pigeons, rats, cats, and dogs, are all completely edible, and will try to keep that info to themselves. Others will learn out of sheer desperation. Government hand outs will give others enough energy to start seeking out other food stuffs from various locations, eventually constantly relocating to the next rumored food location. Those rumored locations (cities, towns and even other states) will more than likely be in no better shape, but now will be under siege from what will probably turn out to be violently aggressive refugees in search of food, guns, whatever. The second reason that I disagree with your assertion, is summed up as self preservation (fully explained above). It's real easy to say that people "in pain" will just give up. It's real easy to say that when you have food in your belly, clothes on your back, and a roof over your head, but when the very essentials to life are taken away, the vast majority of mankind will do whatever it takes to survive. I do think that many will commit suicide, but not in any appreciable numbers, that would have any affect on the situation. The old and the young will suffer the most, at first. Many of us, who have prepared, will protect our young and old with vicious resolve. Towns will band together to the purpose of protecting what resources they do have. Does all of this sound far fetched? Go back and watch the news reels, and the movies that covered just how bad the last depression actually was. If the economists who have explained this depression are only half right, it will be a hundred times worse that the 1930's, and the scenarios covered on this board will not even come close to describing all that will actually play itself out in the coming years.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:05:06 GMT -5
1939sMessage #1309 - 11/16/09 09:14 AMStay Put +1 Many have never lived either through a real depression or lived in a country that's been ravaged by one ... it get's very very ugly very very quickly.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1310 - 11/16/09 02:37 PMIsn't Obama over in China right now begging the Chinese for continued financial support? It must be worse than all of have imagined!
BGA4444Message #1311 - 11/16/09 08:57 PM1939s My dad was born in 1929. They lived on a farm and life never really changed for them. They were very self-sufficient. The numbers today in comparison are many times greater of those who have lost everything and have nothing to fall back on! Not to take away from how painful it was back then-just the shear numbers today are greater. My dad who turns 80 next month has become upset every time he sees homeless people it reminds him of when he was young in the south, in Germany as part of the occupational forces at the end of WWII, and Korea seeing the many refugees. All this on three different continents before his 25 birthday. He explains it as pure hell
Stay PutMessage #1312 - 11/17/09 04:48 AMI too heard all of the depression stories from my great aunts, uncles, and other relatives who endured that time. My parents were born 1938/1939 respectively, and grew up with frugality as being an essential part of their lives. My wife and I cleaned my mother's cupboards out one time, and came across canned goods that were ten years past their expiration dates. I'm not talking about a can here or there, but rather and entire garbage/contractor bag filled with out dated food items. I have seen this, "save everything", mentality in many people of my parents generation, and yet they grew up in the forties and fifties, not the thirties. I recall hearing the stories how my mother hated fresh cows milk, butter, eggs, vegetables and farm butchered meat. She stated how she always wanted those things from the grocery store, like how some of her girlfriends families "got to eat". Now realize that this was decades before farming was considered the "in thing". It wasn't the cool thing to be a farmer in those days. There was no talk about "going green", or any of the other nonsense that has drawn many to start up their own little micro farms. Farming was/is hard and dirty work. It's honest work though. You truly do reap what you sow. You are in bed by the time that your friends are readying themselves for the night club scene. You are awake and having breakfast, when they are just getting back from a night of drinking and dancing. Your clothes are primarily made up of durable, sensible items, useful for your work. Many people who have watched a few movies and documentary's that romanticize the "good life", and then go out and buy up their own piece of Heaven, almost always fail, and look to get back to civilization as quickly as they possibly can. They finally come to realize just how much they really need work and to know, just to be able to 'Survive' on a farm. They also get a reality check on how much more that they need to work and know, before they can ever hope to 'Thrive' on a farm. They are then shocked to learn that they also have to go out and get a second job, outside the farm, just for them to pay the bills and to eat. Almost all fail, and then go back and tell their exaggerated tales of backbreaking work, and them realizing that they cannot do that for their retirement years. The actual hardest part about farming, is literally the thousands of things that you have to know inside and out. You have to be everything from a vet to a horticulturist, to a mechanic, carpenter, welder, electrician, business finance manager, etc., etc.. It truly does seem a never ending requirement of knowledge. You either learn these things growing up on a farm, or you have to learn from attending many schools and then a farming cooperative. That would give you the 'basics' to survive a farm life. To 'thrive', would require many more years of networking with many many other farmers. This is the truth as to why most people, who either did not grow up on a farm or around farming their whole life always fail, and go back to the city with their tails between their legs. My best advice to the dreamers would be to stick to a back yard garden, and a couple of chickens. You truly do not want to lose your money and time on something that is almost guaranteed to be a failure for you.
mjlzimMessage #1313 - 11/17/09 09:29 AMThings are good my nest egg is back to 85% and growing evey week. Unemployment is up but it will soon go down. I wonder where you all live. The only problem that this country is facing right now that is capable of doing all the evil things you all are talking about is. OBAMA & PELOSI and you voted for them!!!! Learn how to invest and vote for intelligent people that are looking to build up our country not tear it down.
1939sMessage #1314 - 11/17/09 11:14 AMmjlzim: Things are good ... For you, and I am genuinely happy for you. Things are not so good for so many others though. Unemployment is up but it will soon go down. I'm sorry but I would disagree : unemployment will (IMHO) continue to increase and do so at an alarming rate before long, especially after Christmas when retailers will almost certainly "have" to cut back. Where I live unemployment is increasing every week and it's not one of the worst hit states. The only problem that this country is facing right now that is capable of doing all the evil things you all are talking about is. OBAMA & PELOSI and you voted for them!!!! No we (wife and I) didn't. Learn how to invest and vote for intelligent people that are looking to build up our country not tear it down. Just two points : One : we don't have enough money left to invest (we never earned that much anyway) and Two : how do you find intelligent people (politicians) who actually want build up our country? Last time I checked I could only vote for "the chosen ones" or "none of the above". Can you name a politician (not Ron Paul) that you could honestly say cared more about our country than their own self-interests? Sorry to say but I can't. As an aside, isn't relating the words "intelligent" and "politician" an oxymoron? They're "smart" for sure ... I certainly don't know one who is going broke due to lousy pay (or no pay), high living costs and even higher medical bills during this awful period in our history. BGA4444 : I feel for your dad and thank him greatly for his service and sacrifice. War and much that happens to the ordinary people in it's aftermath is indeed a pure hell.
schrizoMessage #1315 - 11/17/09 11:34 AMTodays farmers could not feed themselves either. They are mostly tractor jockies growing corn for cattle to get fat on. Chances are they don't know how to butcher or birth a calve. I never lived through a depression and yet I tend to save and put a way for the chance I will need it someday. Point is, don't romance farming or assume hoarding is a product of depression. I will let you know when it is time to panic. Relax. Draw your welfare and sit back. We are lucky to live in the USA.
Stay PutMessage #1316 - 11/17/09 05:09 PM
Point is, don't romance farming or assume hoarding is a product of depression.
I will let you know when it is time to panic.
Relax. Draw your welfare and sit back. We are lucky to live in the USA I specifically stated that Hollywood is the one guilty of romanticizing country/farm life. I then go on to state that it takes a lot of hard work and a whole lot of knowledge. Prior to the last depression, people all across this country would put aside food stuffs in the event of crop failures, freeze, flood, droughts, etc.. There were no 24 hr supermarkets on every corner, and people realized that the ones that did exist, could not supply an entire population for any prolonged period of time. So what you and others are calling hoarding, our ancestors called common sense. This is not 200 years ago, but just this past century. If you think that 'hoarding' is nonsense (by how you write, not what you specifically wrote) then excuse me if I don't wait for you to tell me when it's time to panic. In fact, I have and do my own research, so I really don't need any assistance from you. Thank you anyway for the offer. As far as a 'Welfare check', it would make life a whole lot easier at times, were that the case. In fact, I'm on the phone, many nights after midnight, working on projects in different time zones around the world. Ahhhh. Eight full hours of sleep. Don't tease me like that.
Veteran_LenderMessage #1317 - 11/17/09 05:23 PMIt isn't about farming in fields, its about creating glass roof farms like they have in Ontario. Its a mix of good farming knowledge and modernization in a controlled environment. Add solar and wind power and we've got a combination that can transplant anywhere. A 16 ounce bag of fresh frozen USA grow mixed vegetables was 69 cents at Kroger's 3 years ago. Today, a Mexican grown 10 ounce bag without quality or quality control is $1.69. Simply put, every urban area in America could set these up for a few dollars, employ hundreds of local people to operate and market it and beat that price. That's where America begins its recovery, not bailing banks or pumping the stock markets. Favor labor or go under.
Veteran_LenderMessage #1318 - 11/17/09 05:25 PMBTW... when you consider where our fresh produce used to go to be processed into frozen and how those communities are doing today, many of those folks could do much better relocating and providing guidance.
Stay PutMessage #1319 - 11/17/09 05:26 PM
Todays farmers could not feed themselves either. They are mostly tractor jockies growing corn for cattle to get fat on.
Chances are they don't know how to butcher or birth a calve. This statement is just sheer ignorance. If you spent any appreciable amount of time on an actual dairy farm, you would see just how much you don't know what you are talking about.
Stay PutMessage #1320 - 11/17/09 05:29 PMAdd solar and wind power and we've got a combination that can transplant anywhere. Actually most farms have been looking into alternative energies long ago. The larger farms have digesters that generate all of their electrical needs.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:05:58 GMT -5
Veteran_LenderMessage #1321 - 11/17/09 05:35 PMActually most farms have been looking into alternative energies long ago. The larger farms have digesters that generate all of their electrical needs. And that's catching and using what blows across broad acreage. Imagine using what farmers have learned in an urban setting where tall buildings cause wind torrents.
Stay PutMessage #1322 - 11/17/09 07:07 PMLast post didn't go through. Hmm. Farmers are also growing crops that allow them to create their own SVO in the making of their own biodiesel. It requires less chemicals than when using WVO in the creation of B-100. They then power their diesel equipment on the B-100 that they generated themselves.
great depression1Message #1323 - 11/17/09 07:19 PMfrom us hillbillys,thats a corn licker still................
Stay PutMessage #1324 - 11/17/09 07:36 PMActually you don't use corn in the making of biodiesel. Corn is used for the making of "Ethanol", not "Biodiesel".
great depression1Message #1325 - 11/17/09 07:45 PMquite true..........hick....up.............however bio-diesel the farmers have no way to make it raw from their crops..........its made from grease or corn oil after use........to use or make corn oil/vegatable oil str8 into fuel is a waste of selling it to restaraunts first then getting it back for free.........bio-diesel cant replace regular dieselmtheres just not enuf of it to do it based upon the need of the industry in trucking........simply put its a green feel good idea with no basis in real economics...other wise the industry as a whole would be doing it..
decoy409Message #1326 - 11/17/09 07:52 PM What do we have,corn,wheat,sugar,soybean. These are cornered and are not being designed for equal distribution. They are and have been given exclusive rights to produce GE seeds. Your leader with rights is Monsanto. If you have not looked at this dirt trail from violation of the constitution of the United States of America in favor of Monsanto to alter life it is a travesty. Who says we have to grow indoors? Wednesday, August 26, 2009 [ccsrindia.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-seed-companies-dont-want-us-to.html] What Seed Companies Don't Want Us to Know ccsrindia.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-seed-companies-dont-want-us-to.html The good old american farmer has never wanted to end there heritage and supply for the people of the land,they have been given a choice. I don't know about the rest of you but they can keep there bioengineered seeds. I don't expect many to understand if they not have researched on there own. But this seed thing is no good and no good is coming up left and right around the world.
decoy409Message #1327 - 11/17/09 07:58 PM Put all of the players together and you see the ones that are suppose to watch over us are about to finish cornering the market in this area. The more things are cornered the less the people have to say. The less the people have to say the further down the hole we go.
decoy409Message #1328 - 11/17/09 08:09 PM Now all of the pieces are out here somewhere. Nobody can fill all the blanks. But one can 'Read-Watch-Listen' and come to there own conclusion. Waterless seeds is a hell of a idea. Let your imagination run and just think of all the ripple effects. Then think is it possible. And then remember,anything is possible. The following is no joke. My wild rants throughout the year are not wild. Everything,everything has to do with the market. Weather as a Force Multiplier:
Owning the Weather in 2025
csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf
Stay PutMessage #1329 - 11/17/09 08:29 PMgreat depression, wrong again. Biodiesel is not made from corn oil of any kind. There is a whole list of crops that can be and are used for the making of Biodiesel. Various crops (non corn) are considered according to the amount of oil produced per acreage. Most people know of soybeans, so I will use that crop to educate you. You decide to create your own B-100 using soybeans. You go online and purchase a piece of equipment, for about $2,500, that takes crops like soybeans, and many others. (Not corn though), and it crushes those soybeans to create the straight vegetable oil (SVO). That SVO is then processed right on the farm (24 hrs later) into Biodiesel. Please take a little bit of time actually "researching" how biodiesel is actually made from crop to finished product. Most dairy farms, however, are not comprised of thousands of acres. This is something that most people in the nation just don't understand, among many things about farming. 75 - 150 acres is the average farm size. This is the "average" size of a dairy farm nation wide. There are many larger farms out there. I know. I'm referring to national average. 98% of the dairy farms are family owned. Many of them have incorporated (for protection), but are not in any way shape or form, what most people think of in terms of "corporate farms". The size of the average farm is what limits the production of Biodiesel, not the technology or supposed cost prohibitiveness. The real cost comes from the federal government in terms of all of the requirements to sell Biodiesel. ATSM certifications ($10,000 + license), required membership to National Biodiesel Board, etc., etc., These stringent costs and headaches are what add unnecessarily to the price per gallon. This is why most farmers who do grow the crop, and make their own Biodiesel, have no interest in selling it to the public. They already deal with enormous government red tape, just in dairy farming, and do not want to deal with the mile long red tape and additional headaches of trying to sell Biodiesel. They produce their own Biodiesel for their own use and are happy doing so.
decoy409Message #1330 - 11/17/09 09:56 PM98% of the dairy farms are family owned. What? I am a old farm boy and I will tell you that the figures are misconstrued. There has been way more going on in the agri field that many have no conception of what is up. If I did not like what they have been doing and our up to I would have went 'long' some time ago. I will not support the destruction. TIMELINE: History of Monsanto Co. 11 Nov 2009 13:08:15 GMT Source: Reuters Nov 11 (Reuters) - Over its 108-year history, Monsanto Co <MON.N>, the world's largest seed company, has evolved from primarily an industrial chemical concern into a pure agricultural products company. Following is a timeline of the St. Louis, Missouri-based company's history. * 1901 - Founded as a maker of saccharine by John F. Queeny and named after his wife, Olga Monsanto Queeny. * 1920s and 1930s - Manufacturers sulfuric acid and other chemicals, including polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), which are later implicated in reproductive, developmental and immune system disorders. * 1940s - Manufactures plastics and synthetic fabrics * 1960s - Establishes agricultural division with focus on herbicides. * 1962-1971 - Becomes one of principal companies supplying herbicide known as Agent Orange to U.S. military for use in Vietnam War. Agent Orange is later linked to various health problems, including cancer. * 1976 - Commercializes Roundup herbicide, which goes on to be a top seller around the world. * 1982 - Some 2,000 people are relocated from Times Beach, Missouri, site of a Monsanto PCB plant, after area is contamination with PCB by-product dioxin. * 1994 - Wins regulatory approval for its first biotech product, a dairy cow hormone called Posilac. * 1996 - Introduces first biotech crop, Roundup Ready soybeans, which tolerate spraying of Roundup herbicide, and biotech cotton engineered to resist insect damage. * 1997 - Spins off its industrial chemical and fibers business into Solutia Inc amid complaints and legal claims about pollution from its plants. Introduces new biotech canola, cotton and corn, and buys foundation seed companies. * 1998 - Introduces Roundup Ready corn. * 2000-2002 - Restructures in deal with Pharmacia & Upjohn Inc; separates agricultural and chemicals businesses and becomes stand-alone agricultural company. * 2002-2003 - Jury finds Monsanto plant in Anniston, Alabama, polluted community with PCBs. Monsanto and Solutia agree to pay $600 million to settle claims brought by 20,000 Anniston residents of PCB ground and water contamination. * 2003 - Solutia files Chapter 11 bankruptcy. * 2004 - Monsanto forms American Seeds Inc holding company for corn and soybean seed deals and begins brand acquisitions. * 2005 - Environmental, consumer groups question safety of Roundup Ready crops, say they create "super weeds," among other problems. * 2006-2007 - Buys several regional seed companies and cotton seed leader Delta and Pine Land Co. Competitors allege Monsanto gaining seed industry monopoly. * 2008 - Acquires sugarcane breeding companies, and a Dutch hybrid seed company. Sells Posilac business amid consumer and food industry concerns about the dairy cow hormone supplement. * 2008-2009 - U.S. Department of Justice says it is looking into monopolistic power in the U.S. seed industry. * 2009 - Posts record net sales of $11.7 billion and net income of $2.1 billion for fiscal 2009. Announces project to improve the living conditions of 10,000 small cotton and corn farmers in 1,100 villages in India; donates cotton technology to academic researchers. (Reporting by Carey Gillam; Editing by Walter Bagley) Your old american farmers have been being raped in the back room for so many years it's a no brainer why they have been going broke. And for what? Margarine? Yummy,margarine,one chemical shy of plastic.
Stay PutMessage #1331 - 11/17/09 10:13 PMI am a old farm boy and I will tell you that the figures are misconstrued. decoy, my numbers are not misconstrued. I'm in dairy country, myself, and come from dairy farmers. I know what I'm talking about. All of the information that I have presented is factual and easily provable. Let's keep conspiracy and facts separate. OK? If you want to talk about "Monsanto Co. conspiracies" (until the cows come home), please don't try to apply it to my discussion on dairy farming. I think that we all got the Monsanto conspiracy the first few times that you posted it. You don't have to look for every opportunity to try to apply it to other discussions. WE REALLY DO GET IT. Now, it's just getting old, guy. Dig that next nugget up. I promise that we will all look at it.
decoy409Message #1332 - 11/17/09 10:25 PM Your numbers are wrong about 98% of Dairy is controlled by the old fashioned dairy farmers here in the U.S. Look all you like at whatever numbers you like. The old fashioned simple hearted Dairy farmer does 'NOT' control 98%. That fact was true some years ago. In today's world that figure is not correct. The rest of your analysis is close enough to be on but not that as I have pointed out. Not looking for argument,your figure is simply not withstanding any longer here in the U.S. And if you were paying attention then you would know the same.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:06:51 GMT -5
schrizoMessage #1333 - 11/17/09 10:29 PMIt is hard to believe that most of our milk is from small farms. My thought was that California is the largest producer of milk and it is mass produced. Here in Nebraska the dairy cows have vanished. Too much labor, too much transportation and never a day off. This discussion is very good and I believe a diesel engine can burn almost any kind of oil even without processing if you can get the lift pump to move it to the injection pump. Applying some heat to thin the oil helps with the whole process. But then you all ready know that I am sure. I think the future for diesel is in algae but why not grow hemp. I have heard there is a lot of oil in hemp. Please correct my assumption about the dairy farms because I know there are a lot of them in Wisconsin. Would like to see some facts. Thanks.
decoy409Message #1334 - 11/17/09 10:31 PM And you know what else 'guy', there is the problem! IT IS NOT GETTING OLD,IT IS GETTING TO BE NEW! The market is just about cornered. So while you choose not to accept in your delusional world of how things are now as opposed to 20 years ago there has been changes. Conspiracy? You sure like to slam that word at me don't you. I don't think I have used that word more than 3 times since I have been here at MT. Have a good day.
decoy409Message #1335 - 11/17/09 10:36 PM schrizo your assumption is right about milk production. It is all there for the looking. Wisconsin is not the leading dairy state it once was and that award went to Mn. Dairy producers in Wi. are taking it up the *** as falling per lb. price is making many a herds look like they are anorexic. You in Nebraska have seen some very tough times in the agri business and those problems have come from GE. Your farmers have been waxed and shined by the big 'M'
schrizoMessage #1336 - 11/17/09 10:39 PMAlso the point about soybean oil best used to fry foods first is a great idea. I am in the food business and have donated all my used oil to a bio diesel maker working out of his garage. Its a dirty business with all that old oil spilling onto the pickup bed and then the garage floor and then you forget to take your shoes off and leave prints on the carpet and the wife is beside herself. Nothings free, not even the wind. But using the oil twice is just smart. Smells good too.
schrizoMessage #1337 - 11/17/09 10:47 PMYes I agree about the seed talk. People need to become aware of how seeds are disappearing and as they are being genetically altered to not produce seed. And this is not conspiricy but it gets little attention. I don't know much about it but seeds are not being sold by the bag anymore but by the each. You can't grow your own seeds either because someone owns the patents. Its just very weird and real and we all need to take notice. I work for Whole Foods Market and they TRY to support the smaller farmers growing hierloom vegetables without the dependence on chemicals.
Stay PutMessage #1338 - 11/17/09 11:01 PM [edit] United States
In the United States, the top four dairy states are, in order by total milk production; California, Wisconsin, New York, and Idaho. Dairy farming is also an important industry in Florida, Minnesota, Ohio and Vermot. There are 65,000 dairy farms in the United States.
Pennsylvania however, is the state with the heaviest dependence on dairy farming · there it is the number one industry. Pennsylvania is home to 8,500 farms and 555,000 dairy cows. Milk produced in Pennsylvania yields about US$1.5 billion in farm revenue every year, and is sold to various states up and down the east coast.
Milk prices collapsed in 2009. Senator Bernie Sanders accused Dean Foods of controlling 40% of the country's milk market. He has requested the United States Department of Justice to pursue `an anti-trust investigation. Dean Foods says it buys 15% of the country's raw milk WIKI. Again decoy, you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to dairy farms. Let's just stop it there.
Stay PutMessage #1339 - 11/17/09 11:19 PMJust a Liiiiiiiiitle bit of "actual" online research will prove to anyone that dairy farms are owned by individuals farm families. They do not sell directly to the public, so they sell to canneries, or join coops, etc., etc., etc.. As I also stated, many families incorporate to protect themselves. In New York, we have Cornel cooperative extension. Check with Cornel to verify my facts. Anyone who actually was a "farm boy" would know all of these facts to be facts. decoy, you lost all credibility with me, bud.
decoy409Message #1340 - 11/17/09 11:32 PM No you do not know. You read a article and assume correct. decoy goes to the source and talks with others and investigates. You continue to believe what you like,you do have that right. Wi. does not use genetics in it's milk. Wi. supplies good stuff for those in Wi. Who,what and how as to our dairy industry and what is truth in being reported will continue to keep you in the dark
The Milk Man Cometh
While Taylor was at the FDA in the early 90's, he also oversaw the policy regarding Monsanto's [yourmilkondrugs.com/] genetically engineered bovine growth hormone (rbGH/rbST) -- injected into cows to increase milk supply.
The milk from injected cows has more pus, more antibiotics, more bovine growth hormone, and most importantly, more insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1). IGF-1 is a huge risk factor for common cancers and its high levels in this drugged milk is why so many [action.psr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Oregon_rBGHFactSheetsandDownloads] medical organizations and [docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:063SblHxCSUJ:www.themilkweed.com/Feature_06_July.pdf+healthcare+without+harm+rbgh&hl=en&gl=us] hospitals have taken stands against rbGH. A former Monsanto scientist told me that when three of his Monsanto colleagues evaluated rbGH safety and discovered the elevated IGF-1 levels, even they refused to drink any more milk -- unless it was organic and therefore untreated.
Government scientists from Canada [www.nfu.ca/gapsreport.html] evaluated the FDA's approval of rbGH and concluded that it was a dangerous facade. The drug was banned in Canada, as well as Europe, Japan, Australia and New Zealand. But it was approved in the US while Michael Taylor was in charge. His drugged milk might have caused a significant rise in US cancer rates. [www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/health/30twin.html] Additional published evidence also implicates rbGH in the high rate of fraternal twins in the US.
Taylor also determined that milk from injected cows did not require any special labeling. And as a gift to his future employer Monsanto, he wrote a white paper suggesting that if companies ever had the audacity to label their products as not using rbGH, they should also include a disclaimer stating that according to the FDA, there is no difference between milk from treated and untreated cows.
Taylor's disclaimer was also a lie. Monsanto's own studies and FDA scientists officially acknowledged differences in the drugged milk. No matter. Monsanto used Taylor's white paper as the basis to successfully sue dairies that labeled their products as rbGH-free.www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-smith/youre-appointing-who-plea_b_243810.html The old fashioned small time farmer no longer produces the gross of dairy.
BiMetalAUPTMessage #1341 - 11/17/09 11:42 PMStay Put, I thought Erath County (Stephenville,TX) as the numbers one Dairy county. There is a certified Dairy that makes on the farm cheese and sells it to the public. The owner came over from the Old county after the war(Dutch) and makes great cheese. He haited selling milk for less then cost and did his own thing. Now he sells cheese for above market prices and the buying public love it. He also has some of the best cow in the state. Including several of MOO-LA caves .. the world best producing cow in the 1960-1970.. With one of the largest University program in Animal Husbantry (Tarleton State University) dairy farming is going into the next generation for farmer's with cheese production and Grads from the MBA program. I forgot as a Certified Dairy he can sell raw milk also as well as use it for cheese  .. great cheese.. many call it the best in the USA including me. Just a thought, bruce
decoy409Message #1342 - 11/17/09 11:52 PM Who is doing the mass producing,thank you. BUSINESS & PROTEINS: Eli Lilly and Company to acquire Monsanto·s POSILAC brand dairy product and related business www.gene.ch/genet/2008/Aug/msg00057.html [www.chelseagreen.com/content/watch-choosing-between-raw-milk-and-a-dead-white-liquid/] The Raw Milk Revolution: Now Available! www.chelseagreen.com/content/watch-choosing-between-raw-milk-and-a-dead-white-liquid/ MAINE DAIRY SUED BY MONSANTO, CLAIMS IT DISPARAGES rBGH DAVID BARBOZA
NEW YORK TIMES In another sign of how contentious food labeling issues have become in recent years, the Monsanto Company has sued a small milk producer in Portland, Maine, over the labeling of its dairy products. Monsanto has accused Oakhurst Dairy Inc. of engaging in misleading and deceptive marketing practices by carrying labels that seem to disparage the use of artificial growth hormones in cows. Monsanto is the maker of the only major artificial growth hormone, Posilac. It has been on the market since 1994 and is used in about a third of the nation's nine million dairy cows. www.keepmainefree.org/monsanto.html 98% of what?
rovoMessage #1343 - 11/18/09 12:04 AMI think the problem with the statistics on dairy farms is in the reading of the stats. Stay Put said: Most dairy farms, however, are not comprised of thousands of acres. This is something that most people in the nation just don't understand, among many things about farming. 75 - 150 acres is the average farm size. This is the "average" size of a dairy farm nation wide. There are many larger farms out there. I know. I'm referring to national average. 98% of the dairy farms are family owned. Many of them have incorporated (for protection), but are not in any way shape or form, what most people think of in terms of "corporate farms". Please note that nowhere in the above quote does it mention the amount of milk or what percentage of the milk is from family farms. The quote says "98% of the dairy farms are family owned". This could very well be true but it does not imply that 98% of the milk comes from family farms.
Stay PutMessage #1344 - 11/18/09 12:07 AM98% of what? 98% of the " dairy farms" are owned by the family farmer. I said nothing about the percentage of which farms are or are not using rBGH. Two different topics all together. If you want to present yourself as a 'farm boy', I can tell you now that hemp is not considered farming by the rest of the legitimate farmers out there.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:07:43 GMT -5
decoy409Message #1345 - 11/18/09 12:11 AMAnd I am sure that you are mixed up a little bit as to moves like the following that happened in your neck of the woods. There is a whole world out here and a whole lot of stuff going on.
You're Appointing Who? Please Obama, Say It's Not So!
The person who may be responsible for more food-related illness and death than anyone in history has just been made the US food safety czar. This is no joke.
www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-smith/youre-appointing-who-plea_b_243810.html It's no lies and it's no B.S. The shortage of food has been a problem for a long time. We are now just beginning to hear of it here in our own country. Food/Dairy were enhanced years ago and a continuous venture is on for producing more with less. The problem is that nobody knows the consequences from screwing with the genetics of such until it is too late. So when one says who is producing that is only the outer shell of who is really doing producing. Clarification as to 'who' really is needs to be pointed out.
rovoMessage #1346 - 11/18/09 12:29 AMThe shortage of food has been a problem for a long time. We are now just beginning to hear of it here in our own country. I'm not aware of any food shortages in this country (USA). Please give me a link or something so I can see for myself.
decoy409Message #1347 - 11/18/09 12:33 AMCornell you say? Do you mean the same Cornell as the one that accepts money from Monsanto? [DOC] Statewide Cornell Cooperative ExtensionFile Format: Microsoft Word
Statewide Cornell Cooperative Extension ... Due to the gracious contribution of Monsanto, the full time participation from Friday evening through late ...
nys4h-staff.cce.cornell.edu/documents/RegistrationFormfinawww.politicalfriendster.com/showPerson.php?id...Cornell... - Cached - Similar
decoy409Message #1348 - 11/18/09 12:46 AM The shortage of food has been a problem for a long time. We are now just beginning to hear of it here in our own country. I'm not aware of any food shortages in this country (USA). Please give me a link or something so I can see for myself. Food shortages for 14% of US homes One in seven Americans struggles to get enough to eat, the government reported today, and more than a third go hungry from time to time -- the highest levels since the "food security" report began in 1995. The new report covers 2008, when the United States was in economic recession and financial markets plunged. The jobless rate has surged past 10 per cent. The number of households with trouble providing enough food for all family members rose sharply in 2008 from the preceding year, said the Agriculture Department (USDA), which produces the annual report. It is based on a survey conducted each December. "The recession has made the problem of hunger worse, and it has also made it more visible," said David Beckmann of the anti-hunger group Bread for the World. Mr Beckman called for stronger federal anti-hunger programmes. The school lunch and school breakfast programmes are due for renewal. In 2008, 14.6 per cent of US households, equal to about 49.1 million people, "had difficulty providing enough food for all their members due to a lack of resources" said USDA. The families, which the USDA calls "food insecure," went to food pantries, enrolled in anti-hunger programmess and ate less varied diets. About 5.7 per cent of households, or 17.3 million people, had "very low food security," meaning some members of the household had to eat less. Typically, food runs short in those households for a few days in seven or eight months of the year, USDA said. Reuters www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1116/breaking75.htm
decoy409Message #1349 - 11/18/09 12:47 AM2009 at-risk population from food shortage due to high food prices : 833 million people The world economic crisis directly translates to food insecurity. According to the Food Security Assessment, 2008-09, a report from the Economic Research Service (ERS) of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), ·Food security in 70 developing countries is projected to deteriorate over the next decade. After rising nearly 11 percent from 2007 to 2008, the number of food-insecure people in the developing countries is estimated to rise to 833 million in 2009, an almost 2-percent rise from 2008 to 2009. Despite a decline in food prices in late 2008, deteriorating purchasing power and food security are expected in 2009 because of the growing financial deficits and higher inflation that have occurred in recent years. Food-insecure people are defined as those consuming less than the nutritional target of 2,100 calories per day per person.· The study warns that the continued rise in food prices is putting millions of people on the brink of extreme poverty. The document emphasizes that the people of sub-Saharan Africa remain the most vulnerable. More than eighty million people have become at-risk population due to food shortages throughout the year as a result of the crisis caused by skyrocketing prices of essential goods. According to the ERS study of the USDA, a worsening situation is anticipated in 2009 where the at-risk population could reach 833 million people. The document reveals that the trade deficit generated by the food crisis of 2008 that slowed down productivity mixed with political instability in the countries surveyed only make it more difficult for poor countries to overcome the dire economic situation. The case of sub-Saharan Africa is particularly acute. It holds 25 percent of the total population of the seventy countries studied, but more than half of the total population at risk of food shortage. Furthermore, the region is increasingly dependent on imports of cereal.
trendsupdates.com/2009-at-risk-population-from-food-shortage-due-to-high-food-prices-833-million-people/
rovoMessage #1350 - 11/18/09 12:54 AMOh, OK. I thought you meant a "food shortage".
Stay PutMessage #1351 - 11/18/09 12:54 AMdecoy, you are talking in circles. I'm talking about dairy farm facts, and you are now arguing with me about growth hormones, and Monsanto. You try to dispute my facts and then bring up rBGH and Monsanto as some kind of proof to dispel any of my facts. I've got no time for this silliness.
decoy409Message #1352 - 11/18/09 01:05 AM Here is the whole mess to the disputing. If one is going to look at projections,facts,graphs no matter what the heck it is boys we have to look at it as a whole and what makes or is making the whole up. If we do not do that than we take only what suits our fancy and we throw the rest. I just want to have some people to shoot the breeze with that are looking at all of it instead of part of it. Oh, OK. I thought you meant a "food shortage". YES! I am talking about a FOOD SHORTAGE. The Global Food Crisis Continues World Food Shortages Expected to get Much Worse © Angela Higbee Nov 9, 2009 The global food shortage crisis could soon become a worldwide food shortage catastrophe as severe drought in major food-producing regions affects 2009-2010 harvests. Major food-producing regions around the globe are experiencing devestating crop and livestock losses in alarming numbers. According to the February, 2009 article, "Catastrophic Fall in 2009 Global Food Production," by Eric deCarbonnel of the Centre for Research on Globalization, recent droughts and other natural disasters worldwide are quickly turning the global food crisis into a catastrophe. The Food Shortage Crisis gets Worse The UN recently reported that over 1 billion people currently do not have access to adequate amounts of food, and that number could climb even higher in the near future if current drought conditions persist. Based on his research, deCarbonnel estimates a decrease in agricultural production of 20-40% if drought conditions continue. He has come to the conclusion that 2009 could be the beginning of a record-breaking humanitarian crisis throughout much of the world: China produces approximately 18% of the world's grain. Millions of people throughout the country are experiencing drinking water shortages due to record droughts in eight major provinces, and record-breaking losses of livestock and crops has forced the Chinese government to take emergency measures to try and save remaining crops. Desperate officials have even resorted to cloud-seeding in an effort to bring rain to the hardest-hit areas, and received only a sprinkle of rain after bombarding clouds with almost 2,400 rockets and 409 cannon shells filled with chemicals. Austrailia has been suffering from severe drought conditions since 2004. The worst drought in 117 years is affecting more than 40% of Austrailia's agricultural production. Rivers are completely dry, and the water levels in some lakes are so low that they are actually becoming toxic. The United States is experiencing extreme drought conditions throughout the southern half of the country. In California and Texas, drought conditions are the worst they have been in nearly a century. California has already lost thousands of acres of crops, and water restrictions are in place throughout the state. In Texas, cattle are dying in the pastures from lack of water and many crops throughout the state are fallowed. South America is experiencing extreme drought across much of the continent. Argentina is suffering from the worst drought in 50 years. Cattle are dying across the country, and the country's food production is expected to be cut in half for 2009. Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and Chile have all declared agricultural emergencies. Bolivia has barely received any rain in over a year, and Brazil - the second-largest exporter of soybeans and third-largest exporter of corn - has been continually decreasing its harvest outlook for 2009 as the drought worsens. Countries in the Horn of Africa are facing severe food shortages and famine. Kenya has been without rainfall for more than 18 months, and South Africa is looking at its lowest wheat crop levels in more than 30 years. Other countries in this region affected by persistent drought and famine include: Tanzania, Burundi, Uganda, Malawi, Zambia, Swaziland, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tunisia, Angola, and Ethiopia. The Middle East and Central Asia are facing the lowest levels of food grain production in decades. Crop losses in the region have been so severe that there is expec
decoy409Message #1353 - 11/18/09 01:06 AMnull
decoy409Message #1354 - 11/18/09 01:14 AM Stay Put as you have been since day 1. You do not look at what makes up the whole,you look at what only you like and dismiss the rest. All of this,all of it,like it or not fits together. You can not see because you are used to seeing as you want what you want. Circles? Circles is when you go nowhere. I start at the beginning and I work my way to the end. I do not go in circles coming back to the same point as you went nowhere,you found nothing but the old that you have seen over and over. Want to know how it works? You better. Because how you think it works and how it actually does are two very different things. They say surprise is the innocence of the attack.
schrizoMessage #1355 - 11/18/09 02:30 AMIf you want to present yourself as a 'farm boy', I can tell you now that hemp is not considered farming by the rest of the legitimate farmers out there. Well since apparently Americans are the only legitimate farmers in your reference that would make the Canadians some sort of fools. What do they know about hemp we don't?? That it is a stronger fiber? That is grows almost anywhere with little water? Or that is produces more oil than soybeans?? I am not saying hemp is the answer to all our problems but just because it is linked to marijuana we should not discard its potential. We Americans let government and business decide what can be grown. We don't grow crops people eat, we grow crops that fatten cattle and turn corn into a syrup and make plastic from it. Lets give subsidies to farmers that grow foods humans eat. Lets grow locally and ship shorter distance. Lets be more informed about what we eat and why we eat it. We may actually create a few jobs in the process.
kman49Message #1356 - 11/18/09 02:33 AMStay put, Decoy409 is correct about Monsanto. However ....not a great sales person. Wikipedia Monsanto. ( you will be surprised)Every activist around the planet is after them. What they produce is a genetically altered product that is dependent on their chemicals to survive. What the consumer receives is a chemically soaked product that is not any more productive or nutritious. Since it is engineered it could be made more nutritious and chemically non dependent. They are in fact ruthless in their pursuit to dominate food production on a level never before seen. The big question is, How does the competition to Monsanto address their product?
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:08:35 GMT -5
mdiwMessage #1357 - 11/18/09 03:04 AMHowever, hemp once was a very large cash crop grown in the USA for the production of HIGH QUALITY rope. This rope is now predominantly manufactured in the Yucatan region of Mexico and is sought out for the making of rugs as well as the twinning for hammocks. It was a cash crop grown by some of the Founding Fathers of the USA. Hemp and Marijuana are NOT the same crop. It is still grown in many regions of the world to produce a cloth with twice the wear resistance of cotton, none of the shrinkage of wool or cotton and is more durable than silk, yet can be woven into a very fine fabric as well.
Stay PutMessage #1358 - 11/18/09 03:54 AMStay put, Decoy409 is correct about Monsanto. However ....not a great sales person. kman49, I know about the Monsanto problem. However, he came in pronouncing himself a 'farm boy', and then tried to discredit my factual information concerning the percentage of dairy farms owned and operated by American families (98%). What does Monsanto have to do with any of my posts? NOTHING! There's no big picture to correlate here. He tells me I'm wrong about something that he clearly knows nothing about (dairy farming), and then posts multiple times about Monsanto. He's going on about hormones, and chemicals, and hybrid seeds. What in the world does that have to do with the facts that I listed about dairy farming, and how does any of it prove that I'm supposedly wrong? One time, back in my teenage years, I went to go pick up my brother at a party he had gone to. I went to a back room to retrieve my brother's coat, and saw a few guys who had snuck back there to smoke some weed. While searching for my brother's coat, I started laughing as I was listening to the total stupidity being passed off as compelling dialog. This is what it is like sometimes listening to decoy. "Dude, you're wrong, because one time I drove past a farm and got a speeding ticket. You don't want to see the dots connected if you don't see that."
kman49Message #1359 - 11/18/09 05:31 AMStay Put, I hear you. I,m not saying anything about a " big Picture" . No dots to connect without another Daniel Ellsberg. I would not challenge you about anything regarding dairy farming. The thing you have to remember is that Decoy also believes in a Jewish banking conspiracy that dates back to the 14th century. I will bet my 401k that he does not respond. On the other hand Monsanto= Monster. Wikipedea! The fact and fiction line should always be scrutinized. Not buying the "One world Order stuff" I don,t speak in riddles !
decoy409Message #1360 - 11/18/09 05:40 AM I believe in the Money Changers,the beginning,and the demise of the old,and change taking place for the new. I believe that future is very near and we are 'all' about to embark on a new journey.
Stay PutMessage #1361 - 11/18/09 05:45 AMkman49, I'm not trying to start a campaign against decoy. I enjoy a lot of the nuggets that he digs up and post. I was just defending my position, that he attacked, and also stating that when he smokes the weed, he needs to turn off his computer. It's as if he goes from compelling, investigating reporter, to wack job in 60 seconds. I truly enjoy the the reporter side of him. It's the wack job that we could all do without. There would only be two explanations that could explain how anyone could go to those extremes. 1. Drugs. 2. Bipolar.
decoy409Message #1362 - 11/18/09 05:55 AM Quite the aqusations and assumptions. And one could only come to the conclusion that you must be some famous doctor to have such a open opinion. Lets see,that could just as well make you a jack of all trades and a master of none. Try this,turn the light on instead of reading in the dark. Reading in the dark only will hurt your eyes and cause headaches down the lane. Have a good eve Stay Put
Murphy MartinMessage #1363 - 11/18/09 12:15 PMMonsanto is an awesome company in which to invest. The dividend goes up like clockwork. The big question is, How does the competition to Monsanto address their product? Well, if you're talking about Potash, they respond by raising their own dividend like clockwork.
BGA4444Message #1364 - 11/18/09 03:14 PMYou know you can only sugar coat crap for so long. Washington has been feeding us this sugary substance for over a year. The help they have given out is for big firms on Wall St. not main st.. The economy is dying right before their eyes. It is not that they can not see they just do not want to see. Housing is down year over year almost 30%. Somebody in Washington better get a grip before the American people really get pissed off. Hey I am glad the market is only off 33% from the highs last year!
BGA4444Message #1365 - 11/19/09 08:39 PM"Good credit" foreclosures up 50% vs. last year. Last year good credit foreclosures made up 21% of all foreclosures. This year the number has risen to 33%. Just a little "green shoot" for you all!
decoy409Message #1366 - 11/19/09 09:00 PM I have a steal on some new homes! Would you happen to like to own one of these beauties! 
lol gatorMessage #1367 - 11/19/09 09:16 PM
TerankoMessage #1368 - 11/19/09 09:42 PMCorporate America IS Government. What's the real difference between the Democrats & Republicans? One is white with black stripes and the other is black with white stripes. Until the entire nation votes in true Independents, nothing will truly change. The propaganda arm of the multi-national corporations (mainstream media) keeps pitting one against the other to distract the masses from the real issues at hand which is greed and corruption that rules Wall Street.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:09:28 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #1369 - 11/19/09 10:01 PMTeranko, I agree I will vote for any independent and against all incumbents!
BGA4444Message #1370 - 11/24/09 02:20 PMRevised downward GDP go figure takeout the "cash for clunkers" and the 8,000 dollar gift we made to first time home buyers and the GDP is NEGATIVE. OMG pinch me more government spin about how good things are! Just wait till the retired baby boomers get a little more of their money back that Wall st. stole. They are going to pull that money back out so fast our heads will spin. I bet many of them have either done it or thinking about pulling out right now! It is amazing to me the numbers are always revised down never up I wonder why?
Falling Sky - NotMessage #1371 - 11/24/09 02:37 PM It is amazing to me the numbers are always revised down never up I wonder why? Also notice how the Great GDP is announced with great "Fanfare and Hoopla" while the revised numbers are barely mentioned with some other "Great Numbers" coming in at the same time. My assessment: The Depression while somewhat stabilized, continues!
great depression1Message #1372 - 11/24/09 02:48 PMwhat stability.......if you call business cuts profits,if you call 100s of thousands losing jobs each month,if you call record foreclosures,if you call fed trillions driving the dow markets,if you call ..................
decoy409Message #1373 - 11/24/09 03:02 PM It is good that some of you here are seeing the reality. I am not telling anybody to give up,I am telling them to start seeing the big picture. However there are so many that refuse to believe anything that does not affect there world right now. That is so sad as this is all of ours world and it will come to you if you will not go to it. GDP numbers are just that numbers. Charts,graphs are just that. I used to have some faith in them as there was truth to them. Nobody has any real idea just what the heck is going on world wide and that in turn will play the disconnect from truth and reality until it hits home with the non-believer.
Crying TreeMessage #1374 - 11/24/09 03:43 PMNevada, Oregon and Michigan are for sure. The rest are going under slowly. Obama looks like another fast talking lawyer and has not done much for the working class. What a disappointment. More troops and stimulus money for those who lost it in the first place. The economy is going down and hiding or lying about the numbers will not help the truth. Too bad the smarter working class doesn't run the USA. I see thieves and liars leading us to destruction.
decoy409Message #1375 - 11/24/09 04:25 PMEverybody,Let's just put our differences aside. Lets not argue anymore as to what we believe. Take V_L's post this morning and run with it. We will see who is looking out for all of us.
BGA4444Message #1376 - 11/24/09 04:41 PMThe (I) by an incumbents name stands for "in need of a job". Vote out ALL incumbents!
reverendbarbMessage #1377 - 11/24/09 04:44 PMI just got smacked in the face! All of a sudden, I am now a part-time employee with no benefits! My health care under COBRA will cost me $450 per month, and of course my salary is cut 50%! And I work for a defense contractor, so you know the government is cutting funding for programs to help pay this horrific deficit. And yesterday I read Gerald Celente's predictions about the Depression of 2012 - verrrrrrrrrry scary - I know I'M not very happy right now!!!   
decoy409Message #1378 - 11/24/09 05:17 PMreverendbarb it is nice to hear from you but not with bad news. If it is any consolation a friend works at a Nursing Home informs me that 'O' man wants to start taxing checks to the tune of Afghanistan! Well just what in the hell are people paying taxes for? ??
reverendbarbMessage #1379 - 11/24/09 06:24 PMThanks Decoy. Yeah, on taxes I guess we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet...the taxpayers' backs are already breaking - they'll be broken before too long.
decoy409Message #1380 - 11/24/09 06:47 PMreverendbarb here is a heads up for you,come tax return time,look for 2 new irons in the hot coals. Careful on that ahead of time planning.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:10:20 GMT -5
JnapMessage #1381 - 11/24/09 11:58 PMMany opinions, few informed. When the stimulus package is mentioned it is in the context that it didn·t help anyone or didn·t do anything to help the economy. Here is a link to a site that clearly explains what the stimulus money is intended to do and how it has helped the unemployed and will increase employment, in time. We have just seen the beginning of the effects of the package and will, indeed, see further economic improvement as the money is spent. www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2009-02-12-stimulus-package-effects_N.htm Read the information and instead of just having an opinion you will have an informed opinion. The stock market is going up because the underlying companies are reporting increased profits AND, in many cases, INCREASED sales, compared to the first quarter of this year. Home sales are up and I don·t care, one iota that it is due to the $8000.00 home credit or the phase of the moon. What difference does it make? Home sales are up and the stimulus credit is working. Are you worried that home sales will fall after the stimulus is gone? Worry about it when that happens but not before. The Clunkers program worked and projected auto sales for 2010 are up compared to 2009. Am I worried that sales will fall? NO! NO! NO! I am grateful they are up and a little light is showing in the darkness. It is a constant, lately, that just because things are improving it does not mean that improvement will continue. Is there some special reason why it is preferential to believe that nothing will improve and failure is all anyone can hope for? The unemployed have enough problems without the doom and gloomers killing all hope and faith. And don·t ever forget that economic improvement follows faith that it will happen. That is the fundamental ingredient of capitalism: belief and faith that a chance taken will lead to a better life. And if the government is willing to help you take a leap of faith why would you be against it? It is sad to see so many people, seemingly, permanently depressed and unable to perceive that life will go on and that the optimistic will thrive whether you personally do or not.
frank the impalerMessage #1382 - 11/25/09 12:12 AMjnap-as usual a sane rational post....keep up the good fight! 
New Liberals of the purple sageMessage #1383 - 11/25/09 09:48 AMHome sales are up and I don·t care, one iota that it is due to the $8000.00 We have to pay people $8000 to buy a house in the United States? Say that over and over until it really sinks in. Then look back at the auto industry and realize once you start giving incentives you can never stop! The Clunkers program worked and projected auto sales for 2010 are up We have to give people $4500 to buy a car in the United States? The government placed an extremely large order of cars with GM. You can see this with GM's disproportionate sales of Chevrolet Impalas from the rest of the fleet. The stock market is going up because the underlying companies are reporting increased profits AND, in many cases, INCREASED sales, compared to the first quarter of this year. Increased profits at the cost of how many jobs and much maligned guidance figures. Your capitalized INCREASED sales - like .002% increase? or .05% increase? if the government is willing to help you take a leap of faith why would you be against it? NAFTA, Free trade, China MFN, Tax credits to businesses taking jobs off-shore; all stated to be good for America. Do we really believe all this mess was because of the Housing collapse? You cannot replace jobs with E-Z credit for the long term as we have just found out. Remember this: "Hi, I'm from the Government and I am here to help". Look what 20 years of help did for us. It is sad to see so many people, seemingly, permanently depressed and unable to perceive that life will go on and that the optimistic will thrive whether you personally do or not. The band on the Titanic was very optimistic, right to the last note.
JnapMessage #1384 - 11/25/09 04:58 PMNew LIb, I am sorry you can't find any bright spots concerning the economy. I suppose that a continuing, and growing recession would better fit your prognosis. Just to clarify, many are saying that things are improving, just a little, and will continue to improve in the near future. That does not mean that we will rapidly return to the bloated, debt driven and unsustainable economy of 2005 - 2007. Look at it like a sick patient that is stabilized and showing signs of improvement; not ready to run a marathon but only able to get up and walk around a bit. As to your analogy with the Titanic; the ship almost did sink but is now stable and sailing back to a safe harbor escorted by naval vessels ready to provide further assistance should it be needed. To me that is a much better approach than saying we should let the whole damn ship sink so we can build a new one. Which is better watching a catastrophe continue to unfold or trying to step in and prevent further damage? Our economy will continue to improve because the alternative is not going to be allowed to happen. The Federal Government will spend whatever is necessary; on that you can depend.
BGA4444Message #1385 - 11/25/09 05:21 PMThe market and gold both going up at a record pace! Please somebody explain why? Usually when the market is going up gold is coming down and when the market is on the way down gold goes up. Why are they both going up is it just inflation driven on both? Thoughts?
txbizownrMessage #1386 - 11/25/09 05:55 PMLook at it like a sick patient that is stabilized and showing signs of improvement The medicine the fed is dishing out will eventually kill the patient
JnapMessage #1387 - 11/25/09 08:15 PMThe medicine the Fed is using is the only medicine that will work unless you happen to know of something better. Please don't mention tax breaks because that is what GWBush gave us and we collapsed anyway or maybe we collapsed because the breaks didn't go to the right people or businesses.
decoy409Message #1388 - 11/25/09 08:27 PMWhat? ? That does not mean that we will rapidly return to the bloated, debt driven and unsustainable economy of 2005 - 2007. It sure doesn't. IT MEANS NEW HIGHS FOR THAT GOAL AND CURRENTLY TO THE TUNE OF $12.5 TRILLION PLUS and growing with no turning off the spicket until the last drop is drained! Look at it like a sick patient that is stabilized and showing signs of improvement; not ready to run a marathon but only able to get up and walk around a bit. These absurd and unrealistic ramblings that you are slurring about I do believe you are the patient. Just listen to your self,you are really quite silly sounding. Are we to take you for real or are you having some jokes on us?
JnapMessage #1389 - 11/25/09 10:38 PMDecoy, It must be tough living in your world. The darkness must be suffocating and effecting your thought processes. You are completely unable to accept any positive information because it conflicts with your end of world scenario. The blackness that surrounds you conjures visions of the apocalyptic demise of civilization. More, it is imbedded in your physic core and chains you to beliefs that, if not unhealthy are certainly damaging. Please tell me what part of the planet you live on so we can avoid it and not contaminate rational thought. Who cares about Federal Debt when the goal is to improve the economy; which is the only vehicle that can increase tax receipts and reduce the deficit. There is a mentality that Federal obligations stop when tax revenues decline. Sorry but they don't and meeting those obligations is the only rational thing that can be done. You certainly sound like you would prefer to tell everyone that since tax revenue is down those dependant on Federal contracts, unemployment extensions, Cobra health care supplements, state aid to education and the thousands of others benefitting from the stimulus package that, sorry "I Decoy have decided that this is unnecessary", life is a bitch and getting worse so tough turkey. A little humor with the turkey thing. Decoy have a great thanksgiving and I hope you recover soon.
IvanDormaMessage #1390 - 11/25/09 11:27 PMJnap, You are one of the few rational,thoughtful & intelligent posters still on MT.
decoy409Message #1391 - 11/25/09 11:46 PMJnap here is something that only you can understand ; Blah,Blah,Bal,Blah,Blah,Blah........... I feel bad for you jnap in the delusional world you live. However maybe,just maybe when it hits you in the face shortly you will wake up. But I have a feeling (and it is noit a good one) that you will go down in the history books as those that could not bear it was true and did away with there self as in the 20's. It must be hard for you as well to get up and start the day out with a brainwashed lie up top of that thinker of yours. But maybe not. There is other people like your self living in La.La Land. Heck they do not even know they are they have relied upon a simple buck for so long. Do you compare your hands with chamin tissue by chance or another light tissue? Decoy, It must be tough living in your world. The darkness must be suffocating and effecting your thought processes. You are completely unable to accept any positive information because it conflicts with your end of world scenario. The blackness that surrounds you conjures visions of the apocalyptic demise of civilization. More, it is imbedded in your physic core and chains you to beliefs that, if not unhealthy are certainly damaging. Please tell me what part of the planet you live on so we can avoid it and not contaminate rational thought. Who cares about Federal Debt when the goal is to improve the economy; I tell ya what,I will say I do not care about that one above if you take everything (all of it) you have and throw it back in starting today and do it the rest of your life,sound like a good deal? Oh that's right you are going to let your kids and everybody else worry about that one right. You people are absolutely pathetic that think as you do. Now don't you think it is time to report to your ward it is past your curfew.
decoy409Message #1392 - 11/25/09 11:47 PMJnap,
You are one of the few rational,thoughtful & intelligent posters still on MT.
Well there is a lost cookie with that comment. Are you feeling ok? Maybe it is your med time.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:11:13 GMT -5
frank the impalerMessage #1393 - 11/26/09 12:33 AMI detect a pattern practiced by the certain people on this board and the management to attack people's character if they dare post anything positive. As an American I find it highly offensive that a forum to share ideas is so prejudice to point that they would allow this kind of behavior and conduct to continually occur. These are truly acts of sedition bordering on fascism. Jnap-I have an ace up my sleeve, I think I will use it...happy thanksgiving!
decoy409Message #1394 - 11/26/09 12:46 AM Good for you and your ace. I have a ROYAL FLUSH up my sleeve and 'WE' will be waiting for your call.
frank the impalerMessage #1395 - 11/26/09 12:54 AM"YOU" are insignificant because you turn every thread into a moronic mess of your mind!
IvanDormaMessage #1396 - 11/26/09 01:10 AMV-L, I don't appreciate personal insults!
decoy409Message #1397 - 11/26/09 01:17 AM None of us appreciate the useless name calling you ride EVERYBODY with as well as your delusional talk about nothing but falsehood. IvanDorma you seem to be a bit out of bounds are you not. If you want to play by the double standard than you have to be able to accept the double standard. You are able to add fuel to the fire but then cry when rebelled upon. Het that's the same thing they would say about me when I came here. Now I have learned to accept it as part of the 'Bulls and Bears' game.
decoy409Message #1398 - 11/26/09 01:20 AMMake no mistake we are in a depression. This is the thread above. Try starting your own about complaints if you feel the need to express your self. I am done here until somebody talks about the Thread Tiltle.
frank the impalerMessage #1399 - 11/26/09 03:30 AMIvanDorma-I don't believe I've had the pleasure of your company on this board before, but I have had the displeasure of the company of the above previously. Maybe we could start a petition?
Kim Andrew LincolnMessage #1400 - 11/26/09 09:36 AMA positive mental attitude to life coupled with a realistic approach is what is needed here. Look for the good in all situations but be wise enough to see through the illusions and lies of the great deceiver. Be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove...
New Liberals of the purple sageMessage #1401 - 11/26/09 09:50 AMNew LIb, I am sorry you can't find any bright spots concerning the economy. I suppose that a continuing, and growing recession would better fit your prognosis. Actually I see many bright spots: I have been tracking the automotive companies GM and Ford for 10 years, I knew GM and Ford were in trouble back in 2003. We had the chance with GM and Chrysler to fix the problem - The UAW and their take, take, take position. What happened? instead of fixing the problem the Government throws over $75 BILLION right at the problem. A problem that will have to be faced sometime again in the future. "Hi, I'm from the Government and I am here to help". Another bright spot is is seeing credit being cut way back: Back in 2003 I saw 19 year olds refusing to work because they could live off of credit cards. We ran the country off of credit abuse and it's about to be changed for the better. Instead of frivolous spending we should be saving more. What happened? instead of weathering the storm the Govt throws 800 billion in stimulus and allows interest rates to fall to ZERO trying to encourage more lending & spending!!!. Bank accounts are paying less than 1% to their customers for savings. The Government debt is ballooning to unsustainable proportions, the dollar is falling drastically and all will have a much worse negative effect on the economy later if we try to re-inflate the bubble. Jobs created off of unsustainable, abusive credit lending will be jobs negated when the bubble deflates. Income fueled economies are strong economies, shipping jobs to china, mexico, canada, etc...... takes away the fuel. "Hi, I'm from the Government and I am here to help".
New Liberals of the purple sageMessage #1402 - 11/26/09 10:15 AMJust to clarify, many are saying that things are improving, just a little, and will continue to improve in the near future. That does not mean that we will rapidly return to the bloated, debt driven and unsustainable economy of 2005 - 2007. First, PROPAGANDA is the first trick in the bag of smoke and mirrors. Look at some of the great posts in here and you will see the truth. Second, the credit fiasco has been building for 15 years if not more. It reached absurdity with the implementation of the Graham, Leach, Bliley act of 1999, then 6 years ago with Greenspan's 1% interest rate. The criminal mortgage lending started in 2005, a product of Wall St. and it's creation of new "financial instruments" (that we the taxpayer will pay for). "Hi there, I'm from the government and I am here to help!". As to your analogy with the Titanic; the ship almost did sink but is now stable and sailing back to a safe harbor escorted by naval vessels ready to provide further assistance should it be needed. There you go again!  who has to pay for those NAVAL VESSELS? "Hello, I'm from the government and I am here to help".
New Liberals of the purple sageMessage #1403 - 11/26/09 10:34 AMThe Federal Government will spend whatever is necessary; on that you can depend. That "whatever" you depend on, not I, is our money, our children's money, our grandchildren's money and pretty soon we will be tapping into fiscal year 2100!!! and on that you can bet! JNAP, when the country is in trouble because it overspent, how does spending more fix it? JNAP, I think you like bubbles and have come to depend on living in a "bubble world", you have become:  "hi, there. I am from the government and I am here to help!".
Veteran_LenderMessage #1404 - 11/26/09 01:06 PMDecoy409 will be on vacation the rest of this week. When you return Decoy, stop soap boxing (multiple rants one after another) and stop berating other posters. You are overdone here. This is a long thread with a lot of commentary, so comment; picking at each other is forbidden by Code of Conduct. Veteran_Lender- Moderator
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:12:05 GMT -5
Veteran_LenderMessage #1405 - 11/26/09 01:12 PMI detect a pattern practiced by the certain people on this board and the management to attack people's character if they dare post anything positive. I detect (and smell) a damp diaper. You are posting on a thread whose header is: Make no mistake we are in a depression... and arguing that there are no optimists here. Duh? IvanDorma... much harder to babysit all this these days. Nice to see your ID again. V_L- Mod
JnapMessage #1406 - 11/26/09 09:29 PMThanks V_L it is always nice to see you encourage civil behavior on this message board. I will admit that at times it is tempting to cross the line. I hope I haven't done so. Thanks again.
JnapMessage #1407 - 11/26/09 09:39 PMNew Lib, Please do a little research on the great depression and you will find that it was government spending that got us out of it. Yes. I know many will say it was WW2 but even if it was it was still government spending for war material. A recent post by Jubak illustrates my point. What we are now experiencing is not a great depression but something close to a great recession.
gaveltafishMessage #1408 - 11/26/09 10:10 PMSanta Baby, we dropped and flopped. However we have not cultured a waste land. Democracy tempered with public pain begs the way north. Unemployment is no longer an acceptable solution. People are now aware of the major reasons that made our economy dirty. I'm still optimistic even if the lobbyists knock on Washington's doors.
IvanDormaMessage #1409 - 11/26/09 11:02 PMHi V-L, Your 'staying power' really impresses me!Keep up this thankless job.I believe in free speech but it must also be reasonably civil. I still read MT occassionally but just made first 'little' post in about 3 months praising a poster. One response just reinforced my earlier decision to read MT & not post an opinion. Anyway,off on my annual pilgrimage to Asia & Downunder.Wife refuses to let me take computer so have to settle for sneeking into libraries to get my fix! P.S.I believe my non-scientific survey in Australia in March/April, I posted,(looked good to me)worked out pretty much & lived up to it's name as the "Lucky Country"!-with special thanks to Asia's proximity. Happy Thanksgiving.
BGA4444Message #1410 - 11/27/09 02:51 PMThis is just the tip of the iceberg on commercial defaults.
great depression1Message #1411 - 11/27/09 03:19 PMhheeehaaahhaa.......lets see if bernake sends about 50 billion over to the wall street banksters today to shore up this collapse for the holiday weekend.
great depression1Message #1412 - 11/27/09 03:27 PMNew Lib, Please do a little research on the great depression and you will find that it was government spending that got us out of it. Yes. I know many will say it was WW2 but even if it was it was still government spending for war material. A recent post by Jubak illustrates my point. What we are now experiencing is not a great depression but something close to a great recession. When was the last time the govmnt bailed out everything...........we are talking nearly everything....... Then after the war the democrats taxed everything in the country to pay for the war spending. My grandad ad his brothers got home from ww2 and rebuilt the family farm,over 1600 acres worth with their military pay they had saved. Building barns,a saw mill, several new houses for their families. Then the revenuers showed up to collect back taxes from the war years and to collect the new super inflated taxes after the war........They called them carpet baggers.........and justly so as they wanted 8000.00 dollars to satisfy the democrats lust for money.......Instead grandad burned all the buildings sold the new equipment and they left for parts unkown.........that happened all over america after the war.....spending only creates deficits that require massive taxation to payoff.that destroys the fundamentals of free enterprise and the way in which renewable revenues for govmnt can be created........The only thing that saved us was that the world at war was destroyed industrially and they bought from america for nearly 30 years after the war and by the 1970s the world was rebuilt and they no longer needed to purchase from america.......they became the world economy and shut us down.
great depression1Message #1413 - 11/27/09 03:43 PMYOUR GOVERNMENT AT WORK
TARP, recovery and now · this! Congress scrambles to write economic 'jobs stimulus' 3.0 Posted: November 26, 2009 6:25 pm Eastern By Drew Zahn © 2009 WorldNetDaily  Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama signed a combined nearly $1.5 trillion in federal spending in the attempt to correct the nation's economic tailspin, but with unemployment soaring over 10 percent, Congress is gearing up to pass yet another economic "stimulus" package, perhaps as soon as January. The Los Angeles Times reports that President Obama and fellow Democrats in particular are in process of assembling a new jobs package that would devote unspecified billions of dollars to projects meant to put people back on payrolls in 2010. The [ www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117273#] House  version of "stimulus 3.0" may even be pushed through as quickly as next month. The Times cites Democratic House members disappointed that Obama's $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act wasn't larger and pledging to press for a new, substantial spending plan to address unemployment. "I hope we don't play around the edges with this and we do what will work. [ www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117273#] Invest the money now," said Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Calif. "We have to create jobs, and we have to create them right away." Rep. John Carter, R-Texas, however, believes that more government spending will do nothing to solve unemployment. www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=117273
BGA4444Message #1414 - 11/27/09 04:00 PMThose sorry btards in Washington feel the end coming for their sorry butts. Remember (I) - Incumbent - stands for "I need a job" next election!
JnapMessage #1415 - 11/27/09 05:56 PMRep. John Carter, R-Texas, also does not say what will solve the unemployment problem. Didn't President Bush greatly lower taxes, so what happened to the economy if lowering taxes is the solution to our economic problems? President Obama hasn't raised taxes - we are still being influenced by the Bush tax cuts - so why is the economy in trouble? If demand for goods and services is greatly decreased how would decreasing taxes, for those that pay very little to begin with, spur growth? Further, if debt is still a problem, for many consumers, as it appears to be, it is going to be very difficult to get people to spend more and for most to get personal lending. Isn·t it obvious that people are still trying to reduce their debt not increase it and banks and credit card companies are hardly willing to loosen standards in this atmosphere. There is a constant declaration that Federal taxes and spending are the root of our financial problems but rarely is it mentioned that state taxes are higher than Federal taxes for 50% of Americans. Why isn't there a similar push to lower state taxes? I think I know the answer and that is lower state revenue will increase unemployment, even more, and, in many cases, threaten basic public services. Also, state governments, can not borrow money nearly as easily as the Federal Government to make up the difference. In fact, it is the stimulus money from the Federal Government that has enabled state government to avoid disaster and even higher unemployment. I love the idea of voting out incumbents and bringing in people who have no idea how to run the Government. We did that in Iraq and look how well that turned out. It has taken many years to get into the economic troubles we have and it is going to take many years to get out. In the meantime help from the Government is welcome; just ask the millions that are receiving it. Lastly, it is easy to say the private sector, with reduced taxes, will lead us out of the recession. But as I said previously, Federal taxes are lower than ever and yet here we are. The only thing that is going to work is time coupled with as much stimulus as needed to do the job. And, while not trying to sound contradictory, maybe some targeted supplements (call them payroll assistance) for those companies that hire people immediately.
Stay PutMessage #1416 - 11/28/09 05:10 AMI love the idea of voting out incumbents and bringing in people who have no idea how to run the Government. We did that in Iraq and look how well that turned out. Actually, that is precisely what happened in this past election (2008). By placing Constitutionally minded candidates into office in the 2010/2012 elections, does not in any way mean ignorance. In fact it has been the arrogance and ignorance of the elitist (of both the DNC & GOP) who thought that they could improve our country with such treasonous programs as NAFTA, FED, council on foreign affairs, etc., etc.. Every thing that they have enacted has worked to destroy our nation on every level. I suppose that you would consider that the actions of people who have an idea how to run our government? If you mean run our entire nation into the ground, so as to guarantee a forced Socialism/Communism, I could not agree more with you. If, however, you mean anything else, then I think that you need to take a hard look at where your loyalties really lie.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 2:12:58 GMT -5
CCin the westMessage #1417 - 11/28/09 07:57 AMI am just your average smuck but it seems to me that this downturn is going to last for quite awhile. I own a service industry business and I talk to the average person all day long. Most people have no loyalty to their company and visa versa. People are feeling pinched by the cost of their healthcare being chipped away at by their employers (not that I blame the businesses) and wages are not keeping pace with the cost of food etc. This has been going on for quite awhile. So I ask you...if you aren't making a decent wage and businesses are out sourcing to make more profit how will the average person be able to buy the crappy products they want us to buy if we aren't making a decent wage? It has finally come home to roost. We can no longer afford to buy homes or buy, buy, buy because we are steadily losing income every year due to out sourcing and union busting. It seems to me it would be in the businesses best interest to pay employees a good wage so they can buy the widgets that are being produced. To logical? I don't see it changing anytime soon.
JnapMessage #1420 - 11/28/09 10:23 PMStay Put; Socialism and Communism are not the same thing. Perhaps you should study the differences before you attempt to equate the two. There are many social programs in the US including Social Security and Medicare. Millions of Americans depend on these programs and, I believe, most Americans value their worth. Other social programs include aid to dependant children. Medicaid, Grants issued for police departments, colleges and so on. Please don't suggest these programs have anything to do with Communism. As for what is constitutional and what is not; we have an entire branch of Government dedicated to that and it is called the Judicial branch. Perhaps you remember the three equal and separate branches of the US Government: the Administrative, Legislative and Judicial. Anything potentially unconstitutional doesn't get very far before it is questioned by the Judiciary; so I am wondering what exactly is meant by the constitution question?
Stay PutMessage #1421 - 11/28/09 10:44 PMStay Put; Socialism and Communism are not the same thing. jnap, Socialism is nothing more than 'Communism light'. The differences are not as contrasting as many of you would try to make them appear. I've been around the globe. I've seen both in practice, and the only real difference is that one uses a bayonet, and the other uses police. They both ultimately end in prison sentences for anyone against tyranny and oppression. Proving that our arguments against Socialism in our own country, by bringing up the unconstitutional programs enacted by traitors to our country, does not justify Socialism. It only proves just how our own government has systematically chipped away at our own liberties in the name of "protecting the people". It's clear that you are all for such government control over your own life, but don't try to force the rest of us to sit back and be forced fed this treasonous government. The people all across this country are on the march, and we will see "Real Change" in the 2010/2012 elections. I just thank God that we outnumber you traitors 100,000 to 1. We are taking our country back in the upcoming elections. One final thought. The government that can supposedly give you everything, can also (historically has proven) to take it all away.
Veteran_LenderMessage #1422 - 11/28/09 10:48 PMPerhaps you remember the three equal and separate branches of the US Government: the Administrative, Legislative and Judicial. A 5th Grader just walked past my computer and said: "the 3 branches of the US Government are: Executive, Judicial and Legislative." What they have degraded into are: Administrative, Argumentative and Law-Writers. What we need in 2012 are: Leaders without administrative tendencies, Far less Lawyers and a consolidation of Laws so that any American can recite (and thereby live by) most if not all of them. Notably, accomplishing this reduces our taxes (less bureaucracy), reduces our bureaucracy (less Lawyers) and gives us a clear cut course to recovery (less Laws to inhibit, more clarity for progress). What we are in is a holding pattern making these aspects self-evident and fully illuminated.
Stay PutMessage #1423 - 11/28/09 10:50 PMPerhaps you remember the three equal and separate branches of the US Government: the Administrative, Legislative and Judicial. Anything potentially unconstitutional doesn't get very far before it is questioned by the Judiciary; so I am wondering what exactly is meant by the constitution question? You have got to be kidding me, or you have had more than your share of the Kool Aid. All three branches have proven to be fixed against the U.S. Constitution and the people, and all three have worked tirelessly to destroy the Constitution in their agenda to control the people, and to set up a Socialist agenda. No one is buying your arguments. That is why the people of this nation has awakened, and are on the march to take back our government and our nation.
JnapMessage #1425 - 11/29/09 09:06 PMSorry V_L you are correct; it is the Executive Branch not the Administrative Branch. I knew that but forgot for a moment because it is the Executive Branch that administers the laws of the country. Here are the Definitions: Definitions of executive on the Web: · a person responsible for the administration of a business · persons who administer the law · administrator: someone who manages a government agency or department · having the function of carrying out plans or orders etc.; "the executive branch" ad·min·is·tra·tion ( d-m n -str sh n) n. 1. The act or process of administering, especially the management of a government or large institution. 2. The activity of a government or state in the exercise of its powers and duties. 3. often Administration a. The EXECUTIVE branch of a government Again thanks for correcting me.
JnapMessage #1426 - 11/29/09 09:30 PMStay put, 100,000 to 1 is a gross exaggeration. All I hear from that right wing is ·we are going to take the country back· but never hear what they intend to do once they have accomplished that task; not that it is likely to happen anytime soon. All I ever see or hear is that we will impose a conservative agenda. And that would be what exactly? Constant proclamations of nothing come from the conservatives who profess to do something that will fix our economy but never specify what those things would be. Never mind the fact - that·s right fact - that the conservatives ran the country for the last eight years and are directly responsible for two wars we have going on, and the worst recession EVER. Please explain what the conservatives would do. Please explain what the conservatives would do. Please explain what the conservatives would do. Damn, I am getting repetitive but, a conservative barrage of empty, do nothing but complain about issues, for which no answers are forthcoming is tiring. The whole, so called, conservative movement is just that; a movement better suited for something done with the bowels.
Veteran_LenderMessage #1427 - 11/29/09 09:32 PMJnap... a vacation from the OP but more on your last post... it has always caught me ironically that words are mis-used in business and politics. Congress is a good one, I would opt out for Progress and hold them to it. Each President has an Administration but the President is not an Administrator, he/she is an Executive. A bank has a consumer finance division and/or is chartered as a finance company, but in practice are neither. There are a ton more... A caucus (Pronunciation (help · info)) is a meeting of supporters or members of a political party or movement, especially in the United States. Aren't those Lobbyists too?
JnapMessage #1428 - 11/29/09 10:45 PMBut V_L, an executive administers, by definition. The President has the cabinet members, which direct the various governmental agencies that, in turn, run the country. These cabinet members are confirmed by the Senate and institute the policies of the president. Of course, it is not quite that simple but that is the general idea. The cabinet members have a great deal of latitude but ultimately serve at the discretion of the President and are instructed to follow policies he wishes to implement. It is a good system and is very effective. But don't forget it is congress that makes the laws that the Executive branch must follow and it is the Judicial branch that enforces the laws and makes sure they are constitutional. So far, this appears to be the best system of government ever devised. As for your request that progress must be shown, I would agree but, a timeframe has to established for the progress that is desired and the progress itself must be defined. Is it reasonable to expect progress, on the unemployment front, following a serious recession and financial collapse in just 10 months? Is it reasonable to expect that two wars we are involved in for 6 years be ended in 10 months? Yes, I understand the impatience, that many feel, but we are experiencing conditions that 99.9% of americans have never seen. Time is the factor that must be recognized and knee jerk reactions, while understandable, are not helpful.
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