bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:03:51 GMT -5
VirgilBot TP v0.01 Started Thread Port on 12/23/2010
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:14:26 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #1 - 01/31/09 05:07 PMWall st. crashes,homes being foreclosed on,runaway unemployment, businesses closing daily,retirement nest eggs wiped out,construction at a standstill,homeless increasing, food banks wiped out,prices falling,governments collapsing,protestors in the streets begging for jobs,social unrest across all demographic lines and this is going on worldwide. I would like to sugar coat it for you,but really it took Washington two years to figure out we were in a recession. The truth is it is NOT getting better anytime soon. As a matter of fact it will get A LOT worse before it gets better. So now that you know the bad news and accepted it here is what you can do for you and your family. If you got relatives who are in bad shape move em in with you before it gets worse. Get ALL your money out of the stock market NOW. You can jump back in later when the turn happens and believe me you will know the bottom everyone will. Do not make any major purchases prices are falling you can buy it cheaper later. Prepare for the absolute worse things to happen there could be food shortages and even rioting in the streets of America. You must be prepared it is going to get way worse before it gets better. Lookout for yourself and your family remember the government does not have a clue how we got here or what will get us out
Maestro 101Message #2 - 01/31/09 05:52 PMGee, Thanks for the Doom and Gloom forecast!  But you do have a point to a point. But let's be realistic for once, after all, history always repeats itself over and over again, so we are long............ long overdue for another Depression! We just need to flush it out of our 'CORRUPTED' system and in time start all over again to Prosperity! Thank you very much.
BGA4444Message #3 - 01/31/09 06:18 PMYour welcome santa. Hey we all know where we are at. The only people making money in this market are the shortys and the insiders.So if you are real smart on the short side you can make a mint.The industries are anyone tied to construction of anything.Now that you no there is a way do you risk it? No the reason is simple you just can not afford to be in at all when the bottom comes.The reason is this bottom is going to take out 75% of Wall st. that is still here. You know ya just cant be as criminal as those guys and karma not just walk up and slap you right in the faceThey have already got a little taste if that honey but the real sour stuff is just down the road.I think friday was just a hint a what february will bring,I think we will be in the 5000s by mid march.Spring will certainly be beautiful this year-dont you agree?
Mike C4wMessage #4 - 01/31/09 07:23 PMBGA, it is not that bad "wall street crashes" it is at 8000 draw a straight line from where it first crossed 1000 to where it is now. Now is not the problem 14,000 was the problem.... social un rest and protesting in the streets...... Where do you live?  retirement nest eggs wiped out? My 401K is down 35% from those unrealistic numbers when the market was 14,000 governments collapsing..... Name 1? Things are bad. We are going through a RECESSION.... We have gone through them before.. we will go through them again... This one is worse because of the banking problems that go along with it BUT this is not a depression. I see things getting back to normal with growth in the GNP before the end of the 3rd quarter 09 I may be an optimist but you have an empty glass not even a half full one... cheer up
Maestro 101Message #5 - 01/31/09 07:37 PM"ICELAND"
BGA4444Message #6 - 01/31/09 08:23 PMC4W Lets take a look at this America is in a negative trade situation and has been for years. If all the money that was in America was $100 And every year we sent $10 to China for junk,$10 to the middle east for oil and $10 to Mexico for cheap labor and every year we sold $15 dollars to the rest of the world for the excellent items we build here that they want to import from us( thank God for food )That is a fifteen dollar per year drop in money left here for Americans to spend. Now as we have less money to spend each year what this makes happen has already begun. The only way to reverse this trend is to import less than you export. Are just start printing money printing would cause inflation to go crazy. The current deflation is being caused by less money in America for us to spend. There is no easy answer but the best is for us to start producing something that is so good the world needs to buy it from us. This would cause an increase in the $100 and is our ONLY way out.
neohguyMessage #7 - 01/31/09 08:39 PMReestablishing our manufacturing base will take time. Patience will be required. The best thing we can do while our manufacturing is being rebuilt is to give incentives to companies not to move their manufacturing away from here. Individuals can help by trying to buy products that are either made here or at least have a lot of components made here.
BGA4444Message #8 - 01/31/09 08:47 PMI agree neo problem is the rest of the world needs to sell us their stuff to keep their economies going not happening NO money here anymore. The whole thing is a huge catch 22. But I read the other day China is asking/telling its citizens to buy only Chinese made prouducts.That action will pound already weak Korean and Japanese economies.
neohguyMessage #9 - 01/31/09 09:06 PMBGA, in my opinion we tried an experiment that didn't work well. When we accelerated outsourcing in the 70's I was concerned. I got really concerned when steel mfg (was important in my region) was leaving the country. I felt we were jeopardizing our national security by not being able to manufacture stuff at home. I don't think it is to late to reestablish manufacturing but it is going to take time. I do not wish ill on any foreign country, they will just have reinvent themselves like we will have to reinvent ourselves. Just as we were wrong to outsource our manufacturing, emerging nations are learning they were wrong to depend to heavily on an economy that was being driven by US consumption. Best for both if they learn to have an economy that is not overly dependent on either exports or imports.
Maestro 101Message #10 - 01/31/09 09:16 PMJapan has been in a 'recession' essentially for over eighteen years as a result of their overinflated real estate asset bubble that "popped" back in 1990. Deja vu for the good ole' USA; same damn thing over here, not only once, but twice!! Second time around being the worst! Will we ever learn from other people's mistakes?? NOT!! As long as there is capitalism, there's GREED!!
neohguyMessage #11 - 01/31/09 09:37 PMSanta, there are many types of capitalism. Capitalism in itself is not bad. For instance, in a capitalistic system an ordinary person can own property. Don't want to get into the details (I'm still learning) but some forms of capitalism are not so good.
neohguyMessage #12 - 01/31/09 09:38 PMSanta, there are many types of capitalism. Capitalism in itself is not bad. For instance, in a capitalistic system an ordinary person can own property. Don't want to get into the details (I'm still learning) but some forms of capitalism are not so good.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:27:30 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #15 - 02/01/09 01:36 AMTell me what will happen to the american workforce as we continue to out source to other third world nations? And as we continue to send our wealth or dollars to them as well what will be left for us to spend?
schrizoMessage #17 - 02/01/09 02:17 AMI can feel a rising tide of nationalism. As our world has been shrunk due the to internet the playing fields are becoming level. The world wants a life like we have. Not sure how we can all do well in this world but that is how it is leaning. The rising tide of prosperity will lift all. And many will cry "not fair." But in order to avoid large wars I can see more equality through out this world.
BGA4444Message #18 - 02/01/09 02:19 AMI agree they should be jailed!!!!
mallardplaceMessage #19 - 02/01/09 03:44 AMWhat wallstreet does not get is that we have been in a depression since 2000. This depression is different then prior because people have retired and people stayed working thus replacing the retired. Think about this the nasdaq hit 5000 and has not recovered. There was no nasdaq in 1929 it was all part of the dow. In addition we have unemployment inssurrance. Depressions are caused when technology peaks. However the economy is maintained somewhat as the technology is improved. In 1929 technology peaked with the automobile and other such mechanical advancements. In 2000 the knowledge based / electrical or computer technology peaked but has been improved in the last 8 years. Depressions can last years or even decades but we need new technology to grow. Man has concurred much from the wheel, to buildings, to cement, to ships, the new world, engines, hydro, trains, planes and autos, computers. The next big tech is going to more biological based and energy based and about making our planet healthier. Obama gets it and he is in the process of creating the foundation for it and America. He knows we need to grow our technological knowledge and if he can put the proper foundations in place we will grow again and peak again. Thus repeat the process endlessly. If you can imagine it it can be done!
johnw106Message #20 - 02/01/09 04:01 AMBio-tech. Nano technology and stem cell research. The days of unskilled workers with a fifth grade education mashing a part onto another part on assembly lines for 15 dollars an hour are not coming back. Its far past the time to leave the 1950's and move into the present and look to the future.
Maestro 101Message #21 - 02/01/09 05:44 AMNot if Red China has anything to say about it. Wishful thinking will get you nowhere. P. S. Obama better get it right or else he's history!
FetonaMessage #22 - 02/01/09 08:12 AMAmerica could choose to follow Neil Young·s advice: It·s better to burn out, than to fade away. I think Neil Young's "Long May You Run" is more in line with what he is doing today!! www.lincvolt.com/
george denverMessage #23 - 02/01/09 01:04 PMthis is the worst time of my life . stocks down nest egg gone . no good news insight. if there is no change i don't want to live.
itstippyMessage #24 - 02/01/09 01:54 PMBuck up, George Denver! Take a tally of what you have and don't have: If you have a clean dry shelter with central heat, hot and cold running water, electricity, warm dry clean clothes, a diverse diet, and access to a decent doctor, you are much better off than all the European Kings in history. They lived in drafty stone castles with very few creature comforts. They ate a limited diet, no refrigeration, sick all the time, suspect drinking water, fleas, no modern medicine, etc. You would not want to live the way they had too. And they were The King!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:28:22 GMT -5
ATYPMessage #25 - 02/01/09 02:46 PMHang in there George Denver, things will recover. It may take a little longer than a couple of months but you will eventually get back on your feet soon enough. It is a cycle we are all in.
Crying TreeMessage #26 - 02/01/09 02:54 PMWere not in a depression. When you work all day for a bag of beans your in a depression. Too many know it alls forecasting what they don't know about.
Maestro 101Message #27 - 02/01/09 05:48 PMAll by the way, I would gladly work for $15/hr.; non-union of course. Not like the $35-40/hr. unions that are bringing the auto industry down to the ground!! P. S. I think 'Def Leppard' said it best in "Rock of Ages" Yeah, it's better to burn out. Yeah, than fade away. Pyromania Baby!!
neohguyMessage #28 - 02/01/09 07:00 PMAll by the way, I would gladly work for $15/hr.; non-union of course. Not like the $35-40/hr. unions that are bringing the auto industry down to the ground!! Union Santa Clause got $25.00/hr + benefits at upper scale mall this yr 
jwbrad88-ModEMessage #29 - 02/01/09 09:04 PMneohguy --- Guess that's a reasonable wage for sitting and putting up with children climbing on one's lap, cameras flashed in the face, etc. ...especially if one can grow a nice white natural beard, have long snow white hair, and is sufficiently rotund to cast the best image of Santa. Then if we think depression, and remembering the 1930's.... that is a pretty good wage.
Maestro 101Message #30 - 02/01/09 09:18 PMGuess what, Santa is out of a job until next X-MAS!! Go figure???
Crying TreeMessage #31 - 02/01/09 10:17 PMHo! Ho! HO! I can do that job maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the surf is up and corporate America is not for Santa. Once a year is all he can take and gives the $25.00 an hour to Madoff for investments. That's why there was no Christmas last year.
schrizoMessage #33 - 02/02/09 01:13 AMThese are the same guys who don't want to pay taxes. And no judge will put any of those "banker" crooks in jail. Makes me think there is real favortism between the law and business. Maybe that is obvious to others but I have always had some hope for justice. I am not judging the rich as most are decent beings and no less human than "the rest of us." The crooks need to go down and soon.
BGA4444Message #34 - 02/02/09 12:08 PMDENVER, There is always a way out. For people who lose everything there new job is to start over. I have always heard anyone who feels like they have it unbearable that they should visit a children's terminally ill ward at a local hospital. This action will give you new insight and resolve. Also , interview with god on the computer will also help. Good luck and don't give up!!!!
Just enter your preferred display name belowMessage #35 - 02/02/09 03:48 PMOne would think that the total failure of the captialist banking system twice within a hundred years times would prove to everyone that the bible may be right about not charging interest on borrowed money. It seems to build these huge debt loads that nobody can support and collapses in the blink of an eye. We are still in the second inning of a baseball game that is not due to go into overtime as the good guys (read you and me the normal people) are going to be so beaten up by the opposing team (read Wall Street bankers). Lets see the score card so far we 401k pension plans down 40 percent, them 20 billion dollars of tax payer money going to pay the Wall Street banker's bonuses. We have Barney Frank trying to tell people that we need to bail out the bad people who stole money and had terrible loans along with the good people because it is the only thing we can do. He even compared it to collateral damage in war calling it collateral benefits. What a crook. It is easy to figure out who was taking money from the banks and we as the tax payers of the USA should have our elected officials hunting these people down and throwing them in jail instead of rewarding them for the total destruction of our 401k plans. Even if our 401k plans recover in 15 years to the levels they are now we will still be out by 2 times since the financial advisors always tell us they should grow at 10 percent a year. So in 15 years they should be three times what they were last year before the Wall Street bankers stole our money. The stock market is a ponzi scheme people and Barney Frank is trying to steal tax payer money to reward the people who stole our money instead of doing the right thing and putting those who stole our money into jail.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:29:13 GMT -5
Maestro 101Message #37 - 02/02/09 06:10 PMCheer up Georgie boy it's not the end of the world, just the beginning!
Maestro 101Message #38 - 02/02/09 06:17 PMCorporate America and Corruption go hand in hand. One palm greases the other, while we working and non-working class stiffs get Screwed!
PARENTAL SEGREGATIONMessage #39 - 02/02/09 06:38 PMWhy do WE not kick them out of office?
snowdogMessage #40 - 02/02/09 06:57 PM"Depressions are caused when technology peaks" Completely wrong. The great depression was caused by a crash on wal street due to an unsustainable margin frenzy, and resulted in a run on the banks that has little cash in reserve. Unemployment reached 50-60% in some states, trillions in savings disappeared, and MOST people were left with nothing. This is in no way like that. This is just another recession, and not even as bad as the late 70's early eighties when unemployment was 12-14%, mortgage rates were 12-18%, and you had to know somebody to get a job at McDonalds. It is truly sad how the mis-informed and ignorant are so easily fooled.
snowdogMessage #41 - 02/02/09 07:02 PMP.S. Even more disturbing is the rush to blame the CEOs and "Wall Street" when the guilty parties are elected by you and me, which really makes this our fault, you and me, and especially the people that don't vote. How many people whining and complaining on this vote regularly, every election?
Just enter your preferred display name belowMessage #42 - 02/02/09 07:10 PM [moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=7920810] neohguy Message #12
01/31/09 03:38 PM Santa, there are many types of capitalism. Capitalism in itself is not bad. For instance, in a capitalistic system an ordinary person can own property. Don't want to get into the details (I'm still learning) but some forms of capitalism are not so good. I think less than 1/3 of home owners really own their homes the rest are renting them until they have them paid off which normally is two years before they die. I think home ownership in the US is about 65 percent so there is not a lot of true captialism going on here. Also I feel sorry for all those people who took Greenspan's advise to make the equity in their homes work for them by taking it out in a home equity loan and put it to work in the market making 10 percent a year. They pushed the DOW from 10,500 in 2004 to 14,000 in 2007 only to see it fall to 8,000 in 2008 losing 25 percent of their home equity loan money and seeing their house value drop by 25 percent so they now owe more on their house than it is worth and the stocks they brought are now at least 25 percent less than when they brought them. A lot of them have even just given up and had their houses foreclosed on by now. So instead of making 10 percent returns on the equity in their homes each year enough to buy a new car every two years they are facing foreclosure and unemployment. I am sure they are thanking Greenspan right now for that sound advice.
mustbethewindMessage #43 - 02/02/09 07:13 PMWe just had the election......I voted against every incumbent I could......next election is in 2 yrs, then maybe more will vote to get new blood in Congress
SssjimMessage #44 - 02/02/09 07:31 PMI don't feel sorry for anyone who took out a second mortgage or an equity home loan because they didn't loose anything. Remember, they got cash at the time and spent it. I refuse to compensate them for money they already spent. First the government wants everyone to spend, then they complain nobody saves enough. In order to get people to save, they need to be able to open a savings account and get a decent interest rate on their money. But since the government obviously wanted to encourage debt spending, they lowered the interest rates so low that most savings accounts pay less than 1% now (and have for several years). Nobody is going to put money in a 1% account if inflation is running at a much higher rate. Savings accounts need to pay a few % MORE than inflation to make them worthwhile. Also, if everyone stopped spending and just saved all their money, our economy would collapse. The government depends on people spending to keep the economy going. Too bad the government couldn't stop all non-essential spending, cut out all non-essential programs, and aim for a surplus that would go only to paying off the national debt. Then when the debt is paid off, put the surplus into some type of savings program and let it build for several years until the amount of interest earned was enough to pay for running the government entirely (so we could permanently eliminate all taxes). Just a thought. Sssjim
fools_goldMessage #45 - 02/02/09 07:45 PMAll recent reports point to things getting worse before they get better. We are in a recession now, and if headed for a depression, it will be more ugly than the 30's. The generation of the Great depression were resourceful and learned to live basically off the land. Today we have a population of pampered, overweight, spoiled and entitled people . The soft-hand pencil pusher in the cubicle won't have a clue how to survive if the bottom really falls out. The days of borrowing against your home's equity to finance your kid's college education and keeping up with the Jones's are gone! tax revenues are way down due increasing foreclosures in many states forcing deep cuts in many needed programs and services. It's gonna get worse people. Brush up on your survival skills or perish.
BGA4444Message #46 - 02/03/09 01:59 AMI agree Gold but everyone should save their resources,not make any major purchases and keep as much money as possible out of the stock market. That way when times really get tough they can at least get by for awhile.
fools_goldMessage #47 - 02/03/09 05:55 PMBio-tech. Nano technology and stem cell research. The days of unskilled workers with a fifth grade education mashing a part onto another part on assembly lines for 15 dollars an hour are not coming back.
Its far past the time to leave the 1950's and move into the present and look to the future. Not so fast johnW. We will always need the unskilled labor to pick up our trash, dig ditches for our high speed internet cable, clean our buildings, bag our groceries, fix our flat tires, etc. Not knocking the individuals in pursuit of PHD's, but we still need diversity in our capitalist society...unless you want to do it all???
Crying TreeMessage #48 - 02/03/09 06:29 PMForeign Labor does unskilled work. Most people think you hit a light switch and on comes the light. People think technology is the internet. Your cell phone is magic. Fiber optics? Multiplexers? Micro wave dish- is it tasty? Blue orange green brown slate-white red black yellow violet. A rainbow? Sound travels at 650 miles an hour, how does it get to New York to California so fast? Light & Electrons travel at the speed of light-186,000 miles a second. Sound is compressed on a carrier. Huh? Better pay attention people. Signaling? Starts the power generators when demand goes up and down from a remote location. Signaling Controls water levels behind dams. Huh? Not everyone can be a rocks in your head football star or other physical sports that require very little brain power and mean nothing to the human race. Farmers are high tech too. This is not a simple world and you need knowledge to run it or live in a shack in the woods and freeze.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:30:05 GMT -5
calif opinionMessage #49 - 02/03/09 06:55 PMI look at it this way if the government wasn't stupid with our money we wouldn't be here... And why should the people suffer because they are too stupid with our money in the first place... We shouldn't have to suffer because of them.. But as usual the people get screwed while the government lives well.
bashstpaulMessage #51 - 02/03/09 07:22 PMWe don't need to re-establish our manufacturing base. We need to come up with something new that everyone else needs. I would prefer we try very hard to come up with an alternative to middle east oil that we can use in our current automobiles. If we can do that, we would solve our trade imbalance as well as our foreign political problems.
BGA4444Message #52 - 02/03/09 07:45 PMHey we could then sell it to the rest of the world and bring down about 40 or 50 oil based economies. Then we would have to fight Russia and the whole Muslim universe. There is just not a easy answer for all this. I guess the one easy answer for the planet's good is WWIII. If that happens there will be plenty of manufacturing jobs to go around. The good for the planet would be the billion or so humans that would die giving the planet a breather from all the bad WE do to her. You know when there gets to be too many deer mother nature finds a way to thin them down. I wonder what she has in mind for her biggest problems- the humans?
Maestro 101Message #53 - 02/04/09 02:29 AMI think we all should spend a weekend at (Bernie Madoff). Bernie made off with billions and probably will get off on a technicality on the grounds that he is mentally incompetent!! We can all make conjugal visits to his **** penthouses around the world, while he's still under house arrest!
Maestro 101Message #54 - 02/04/09 02:44 AMThanks for the snow job, snowdog! Only a fool believes, a fool and his money. Cabin fever is catchy.
Mike C4wMessage #55 - 02/04/09 03:07 AMThe Dems always beat up the GOP for always wanting to cut Taxes Konw I know why. They want everyone ELSE to pay.... They just don't pay their own....
Veteran_LenderMessage #56 - 02/04/09 11:50 AMStick with the topic ladies and gentlemen... Veteran_Lender- Moderator
BGA4444Message #57 - 02/04/09 12:34 PMTHANKS FOR KEEPING THEM STRAIGHT WHILE I AM AWAY VL. LOL
fools_goldMessage #58 - 02/04/09 07:22 PMThis is not a simple world and you need knowledge to run it or live in a shack in the woods and freeze. Crying tree, another example of High tech or the highway. Ever hear of passive solar heating? photovoltaics? wind generators? hydroponics? DC converters? I "survived" in a shack in the woods. Not exactly a shack, but a passive solar earth bermed ranch. Heated primarily by a small wood stove. Had an indoor vegetable garden that was part of an incorporated greenhouse structure. Lived quite comfortably even during the harshest winters. Now living in the burbs with all the high tech crap we all so depend on, wishing I was back in the "shack" in the woods with a better chance of surviving this economic mess and all the high tech madness that controls our lives. Don't knock it till you tried it!
BGA4444Message #59 - 02/04/09 10:18 PMHey I wonder are there any fully self contained subdivisions out there that generate there own electric, water, and grow there own food? Now that would be are already is a great idea!!!
RU-letteMessage #60 - 02/04/09 10:32 PMI agree. -- USA today reminds me of Russia in the 90s. It really does.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:30:56 GMT -5
smirkinatuMessage #61 - 02/05/09 04:24 AMMake no mistake we are in a depression. K·bler-Ross model for the Stages of Grief: Good Luck to you all, you will need it.
yes man 259Message #62 - 02/05/09 08:43 AMquoted text=Foreign Labor does unskilled work. One of the biggest mistakes Americans make, are to think that foreign labor just does unskilled work. They are just as smart or smarter then our fat, spoiled, under achieving american students, and workers.
BfluxMessage #63 - 02/05/09 10:45 AMI guess the world is in the 2nd stage of that K·bler-Ross model smirk. I think it is slowly going into the 3rd. Depression? what is the definition again? about 10% decline in the GDP? quite possible. If you think almost every company is reporting about 20-30 decrease in their earnings this quarter and that a lot of companies already said they will cut their workforce by about 10-15%... well, it sounds to me like we are really near that scenario. Personally i think we are in a crash-down situation. The government won't be able to bail us out of this one because it just needs to happen. The whole bubble needs to finish deflating and everybody has to come back to their senses. That may take time. Just like a punctured balloon, no point in blowing into it. We will survive.. just not undamaged.
RebeccaOneMessage #64 - 02/05/09 12:11 PMWhat really ticks me off is when someone states it the way it is, and then is blamed for being a 'doom & gloom' 'er...we Americans really cannot tolerate reality (hence all the happy endings to our movies). We are entering a Great Depression, and while we started to exit the last one about 3 yrs later, it took almost 30 years to get back to where we were. And that included the help of a 'good' War (one not criticized the world over) as well as a great increase in manufacturing, not the least of which included auto sales. We will not have those bailouts this time around. It isn't the Depression that scares me most, its the no end in sight...
BGA4444Message #65 - 02/05/09 01:21 PMRebecca, You are correct the no end in sight is the worse problem. The rise of Hitler in Germany came about during something identical to what we have here. So many other country's economies are also tanking right now. My greatest concern is someone comes to power in any country including our own with the belief that they have the answer to the world's problem and starts WWIII.Maybe wars are started by mother nature to thin the population. I don't know what will happen but it does not look good.
dslscaMessage #67 - 02/05/09 02:37 PMJust for fun: add up all the money that has been spent and proposed for bailouts and stimulus. Divide it up by the number of US taxpayers. Do you have your share? Do you think there is any reasonable chance your children will have that plus interest in, say, twenty years? Do you think there is any reasonable chance your grandchildren will have that plus interest in, say, forty-five years? We're in a depression and taking steps to guarantee it will haunt us for generations to come.
Just enter your preferred display name belowMessage #68 - 02/05/09 02:37 PM [moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=9439251] BGA4444 Message #65
02/05/09 07:21 AM Rebecca, You are correct the no end in sight is the worse problem. The rise of Hitler in Germany came about during something identical to what we have here. So many other country's economies are also tanking right now. My greatest concern is someone comes to power in any country including our own with the belief that they have the answer to the world's problem and starts WWIII.Maybe wars are started by mother nature to thin the population. I don't know what will happen but it does not look good. Hitler solved Germany's Great Depression by kicking the Wall Street bankers out of Germany and telling them that Germany no longer owed any money to anyone. He then had Volks Wagon built so that German people could be put to work and have an affordable car to buy. He got Germany out of it's Great Depression in just 2 years from 1934 to 1936 and in 1936 he got an economic medal from Europeans for turning the German economy around. Little did they know that by 1939 his syphilis would turn him mad and cause him to do great harm to the world. But why do you think the Germans followed him during WWII it's because he turned things around for them. Why do you think we only hear parts of his speeches in German with no sub titles when they show old clips of him? It was not WWII that got Germany and the USA got of the great depression. It was the government putting people to work building things. Just how much work was really done during the Great Depression in the long soup lines people had to be in everyday just to live. The only difference between 1934 and 1940 was people in 1934 were in soup lines and in 1940 they were in assembly lines. I hate to sound like Marx here but it's not capital that is important it's what you can get your people to build that is important. China is about to stumble across the correct answer they are giving money not to their Wall Street bankers ( a few years ago they put some on trial for stealing less money than ours have and executed them a lession we should have learned at least putting them in jail) but to manufactures to keep hiring people and building things. China's growth this year with this 500 billion stimulus from their government is going to be awesome I predict if they do it right they will have 30 percent growth easy.
luigi1Message #69 - 02/05/09 02:38 PMthe depression has already started in eastern eu & iceland. other nations will fall like dominoes. china & japan are hard pressed to raise money to finance their own problems & will call back their us treasury notes & throw the usa into a depression. buy american has also stirred many nations to do the same with their own economies. it's now dog eat dog. stock up now on plenty of guns & ammo & hunker down for the long haul.
Leban3Message #70 - 02/05/09 02:44 PMAbsolutely right on one thing: Don't think a minute the gov't. has a solution. They are throwing money in desperation and is a clear sign that they don't have a clue where the leak is coming from. Be very conservative. The US is flooding the world with $$$$ which is setting us up for the next big collapse....devaluation and MEGA inflation which will literally make our currency worthless!
arthur buonamiaMessage #71 - 02/05/09 02:50 PMA depression is a really good thing, it will help us to restore our national consensus by reducing dependence on oil, eliminating the wasteful pentagon budget, close all those useless empire bases around the globe, and importantly, terminate our global reach by ending the iraq and afghan wars. How nice to just concentrate on our national interests by staying local. Have a nice day. But the really really nice thing is seeing the super rich folk hawking their wares at local pawn shops to pay the electric bills on those mansions. art
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:31:47 GMT -5
Rabid Cheese MonkeyMessage #73 - 02/05/09 02:51 PMOne word - YESThe only question I have is - WHY did it take this long for everybody to figure out that we are in trouble? Ignorance is truly NOT bliss!
Leban3Message #74 - 02/05/09 02:52 PMDude....wake up....the DOW will easily fall by another 25% if not more. The problem, as history shows, is government waste. We've had bad leadership influenced by greed and special interests. It was only a matter of time, with the help of information available to all with technology (internet), that the bottom would drop! This country was built of free markets. The gov't. should butt out and let the market cleanse itself with all those that did bad.....go bye-bye!
CrazyTrainGL2112Message #75 - 02/05/09 02:55 PMOh, how predictable. MSN shows us pictures from the 1930's; people standing in line with hat in hand, waiting for food just below their article, headlining 'Is it too late to avoid a Depression?'. MSN, CNN and news media everywhere are having a hayday right now. It's like they are feeding fear to the American population - and we are eating it up just like starving dogs gobbling up bowls of tainted dog-food. There are those select few who see through the guise of the media; who ask 'why' certain headlines are printed, rather than just taking what is fed to us. The truth is, people, that we are nowhere near the horrific reality of the 1930's - and we will NEVER be again. As much as the media may try to scare us by blitzing us with mindless headlines containing amateur speculation, it ain't gonna happen. Although many banks have failed, and companies everywhere are losing profit, this situation is TEMPORARY. The right people in our Administration our working the problem, top mind of the world - certainly smarter than those people who write the news, anyway. Have some faith, stay away from the news. It's gonna be alight.
lovdabeerMessage #76 - 02/05/09 02:58 PMWhat do you expect? where I live all I've seen for years is people building huge houses everywhere, always big homes that go for outrageous prices, no effort at all for "affordable homes" or even apartments, now half of these big homes are empty, some being foreclosed on, and people searching for places to live. We live in a land of gluttony, a false commercialized country that has lied to us by saying we deserve to live like kings, well now we are seeing reality and yes, we deserve the mess we are in.
dtr97hopeMessage #77 - 02/05/09 02:59 PMabout the economy;;;;;;;; yes we will see further downturn because of continueing self-interests of greed and of it's all about me the hell with all others. in so-called pretense everyone has the solution but the real answer is of the heart, all have denighed the truth and this always leds to the destruction of whatever empire exists at the time, history is proof of this. untill we look at our selves and what we are the answer will be illusive. thank you. cov.va.usa....
eallegr36Message #78 - 02/05/09 03:00 PMAs long as people think the government will fix everything this situation will continue to get worse. It is time to take some responsibility. It is also time to make your voice heard through your senator and representative at the local as well as the federal level. We cannot run our homes by spending what we don't have and shouldn't allow the government to do it either. "Any government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have", a quote worth repeating and remembering.
WillowTreeMessage #79 - 02/05/09 03:13 PMWe are in the beginings of a depression right now. Greed across the board is the cause. History is repeating itself as we speak. Would have thought we would have learned from the mistakes of the Great Depression, but we didn't. Better stock up on food!!
JJM1944Message #80 - 02/05/09 03:17 PMGET OVER IT.......THE MEDIA MAKES IT SOUND WORSE THAT WHAT IT IS. WE ARE ALL PART OF THIS PROBLEM AND NOW WE NEED TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. WE CAN, WE MUST, WE WILL......LIKE THESE THINGS AND ALL THINGS TO COME, THEY TOO SHALL SOME DAY, BE GONE WITH THE WIND. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DIDN'T GO THRU THE LAST DEPRESSION, THIS IS STILL THE BEST OF TIMES........DON'T LOOK BACK, ONLY FORWARD.
Just enter your preferred display name belowMessage #81 - 02/05/09 03:17 PM [moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=450676] WillowTree Message #79
02/05/09 09:13 AM We are in the beginings of a depression right now. Greed across the board is the cause. History is repeating itself as we speak. Would have thought we would have learned from the mistakes of the Great Depression, but we didn't. Better stock up on food!! Just make sure it's not poisoned food. After all we can not trust the FDA to do it's job anymore. And to think the FDA was created because people were dying of bad milk being sold. I guess they lost sight of their primary job function somewhere along the way.
Idiots once againMessage #82 - 02/05/09 03:20 PMThis whole problem started because the government has let Wall Street and Banking become so intertwined without the proper regulations that were in place for years. We have failed once again to learn from history.
PowitreeMessage #84 - 02/05/09 03:32 PMFrom what I've studied and learned about our current economic crisis is, this mess began when former president, Richard Nixon (R) declared the U.S. dollar would no longer be backed by the gold standard and that, essentially, the United States was then bankrupt-only he called it by another word. We opened the door for increased international trade; which in itself is a good thing, except it became incredibly out of balance for America. We have been existing on credit-while Asia has been stock-piling the U.S. dollar for the past 35 years and many of once purely American companies began the outsourcing of American manufactured goods...while workers in Mexico and overseas rely on paultry pay for their hard work for American corporations; CEO's and other executives have been collecting to the tune of millions out of the profits from outsourcing-why would they ever want to bring those jobs back to America? To make matters worse, credit based spending has been out of control over the past 35, give or take a few years; the housing market & the lack of confidence in America's declining dollar are symptoms of the 'cancer' that has spread around the globe. This is a different ballgame-what happens in America does not stay in America. However, we owe more than we can ever repay and other countries are knocking at the door to collect. Stock markets reveal only a fraction of what is going on. In reality, we are just now seeing the tip of the iceberg..when the stock market slumps to 7000..will that be the bottom? I am in agreement, when our manufacturers were lured into outsourcing American workers jobs overseas in the 70's; this country, already in decline thanks to Nixon; began it's slide down the slippery slope. The treasury was instructed when the government realized we could not withstand a total collapse of the dollar--just go ahead and print as much money as it takes to keep up the illusion of prosperity and financial security in America. Since money can (and is) printed based on demand, not actual value; and is now being realized as declining in worth; we are in one hell of a fix & it's gona get alot worse (before it gets better). I believe it is possible that we will see a total collapse-an illusion can last only so long. I think President Obama has good intentions-I think he is seeking good counsel. Ordinarily, I'm an optimist, but we are in uncharted territory where what is coming may make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park...so, shore up where you can, if you can help someone out, do it & if you can, invest in silver/gold/land/basic needs/extra basics for trade & remember-we are all in this together-we are our brothers' keeper. Ask yourself, what if? Please don't slam me with rebuttals of optimism..of course, I hope to see a better tomorrow; I plan to keep on truckin'...but I've also got my house in order-just in case.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:32:39 GMT -5
trust_notMessage #85 - 02/05/09 03:34 PMI think nearly everything has already been said on this thread. I would like to add, in a heirachy system the leadership should take responsibility for the good and the ugly in business or leadership. Having said that, exchanging a front man in the executive branch is not the answer to all America's problems. When a country is in a downward spiral, more times than not the leadership is ousted, replaced or beheaded. It is my opinion that this American government should have a regime change. The legal criminals have had their harvest. Time to have the nashing of the teeth by the lawmakers. Time for good citizens to step up to the plate and lead America in a new direction, instead of the same old stuff America has endured for way too much time. Whatever happened to patriotism that holds dear the Declareation of Independence. It is our duty as citizen to throw off tyranny. Lobbyist and Corruption in government is the root cause of this economic depression.
Just enter your preferred display name belowMessage #86 - 02/05/09 03:36 PM [moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=10445681] CrazyTrainGL2112 Message #75
02/05/09 08:55 AM
Oh, how predictable. MSN shows us pictures from the 1930's; people standing in line with hat in hand, waiting for food just below their article, headlining 'Is it too late to avoid a Depression?'. MSN, CNN and news media everywhere are having a hayday right now. It's like they are feeding fear to the American population - and we are eating it up just like starving dogs gobbling up bowls of tainted dog-food. There are those select few who see through the guise of the media; who ask 'why' certain headlines are printed, rather than just taking what is fed to us.
The truth is, people, that we are nowhere near the horrific reality of the 1930's - and we will NEVER be again. As much as the media may try to scare us by blitzing us with mindless headlines containing amateur speculation, it ain't gonna happen. Although many banks have failed, and companies everywhere are losing profit, this situation is TEMPORARY. The right people in our Administration our working the problem, top mind of the world - certainly smarter than those people who write the news, anyway. Have some faith, stay away from the news. It's gonna be alight. 35 million Americans on food stamps so far. That is the only reason you do not see the food lines. 950,000 people losing their jobs last week and this week. Seasonally adjusted to 590,000 just to make the numbers look good. Do you realize that is 2 million people losing their jobs in two weeks? And the state unemployment probably missed another 600,000 people because they can not process the number of people applying. They do it by phone or internet so you will not see long lines of people waiting to apply.
michael from ohioMessage #87 - 02/05/09 03:39 PMIf the country is heading towards a depression seems, to me, to be a useless questions, let alone to be a conscience thought. The ways in which the world's economies and people create, make, spend, and invest money today is entirely different than the methods used by those who lived and worked during our "Great" Depression. Credit was not the backbone of spending, planning, nor forecasting of stocks and companies, nor was it a way to purchase goods by the masses; you couldn't refinance your house in order to buy a new car. To even compare these two entirely different eras of financial disruption is almost irresponsible. It is interesting to me that the government and our political leaders are using the history of the Great Depression as a symbol of our ability to make it through, as long as we pull up or boot straps and get to work. Funny, because its working, as far as a motivational factor. To put an end to this crisis that is currently effecting nearly every major economic power in the world, we need to reevaluate the way that we understand money and the value of currency, period. We, as people, need to look at this current system of perpetual inequality between the rich and the not so rich. Proof is in the fact that the rich are still getting paid; proof is in the bonuses that they are paying themselves out of our pockets; proof is that they have the power to change this now, but they aren't, they're stealing from us. The worst part is that the government is helping, unknowingly or not, I can't make that call. The point though is that we need to understand that the current financial system is simply the only one that we know. And I'm not talking about switching to socialism, etc. I mean something entirely different, something that I have not even though of yet. A new evolution of human thought and progression is due for our financial system; one in which we don't have to slave for rich folk who make godless amounts of money while we get min. wage; and so on. The only reason we still use our current system is perpetual in nature, along with the unwillingness of our leaders to change, which makes sense seeing as any new or more efficient system might jeopardize their powerful jobs. Seriously, think about it; theorize about it; work it out.
fastEMessage #88 - 02/05/09 03:39 PMAbout the stocking up on ammo and other supplies, apparently many are, went to buy some this last weekend- two stores out of 45 auto and 357 mag, go figure. A gloom and doom outlook is one thing, being totally unprepared for what could be is another.
Dawn KMessage #89 - 02/05/09 03:39 PMI believe that the banking system is going to crash. I think the Gov't can't stop it and the bankers know it. Why would interest rates on credit cards jump from 5%-10% all the way to 25% to 35% for people who have never missed a payment and are still somewhat afloat? They are DRIVING the default rate higher. Either they are counting on more Gov't money (which are Gov't is stupid enough to possibly do it) or they are trying to get every dime they can before they bail. I'm not being gloom and doom when I say that I honestly believe that the ONLY way to 'cleanse' the system of the sheer greed and thievery going on is for them to completely lose everything. As long as the 'old boy network' is still in force, nothing will ever change, get better, or give the 'regular' people a chance. IMHO, the first thing we need to do, as a country is stop trying to take care of every other country. That includes sending billions to any other country in the form of aid. (I know natural disasters have wiped out nations, we should try to help them, but $40B a year to a country that can't figure out that screwing everything in sight spreads AIDS is ridiculous). The second is to stop supporting anyone from any other country that happens to make it to our beach. The State of Ca is forcing their employees to take 2 unpaid days a month, while the 'paychecks' of the millions living in their 'Sanctuary Cities' lost nothing. That's a slap in the face, IMHO. The United Way, ACLU, and everyone else that wants to help them are still welcome to. By private funding ONLY, if there is anyone left that has a dime to spare. I know that sounds harsh, but I have always been told that charity begins at home. We have millions now that have lost their homes and jobs- they should be our first and only priority right now. Sending checks to people who have never paid into the system and never intend to should be STOPPED. The second thing is to stop throwing good money after bad into these idiots that caused this problem in the first place. If they were so good at their jobs, we wouldn't be in this mess, so turning to them for 'help' is like asking the engineers of the twin city bridges how to construct a bridge to Hawaii. Both ends of our economy require a major overhaul. The poor and illegal have discovered that breeding can be an occupation- that needs to stop. The rich have discovered how to not pay taxes, cut budgets by putting other people on unemployment, and how to 'cook the books'. That needs to stop as well.
decoy409Message #90 - 02/05/09 03:46 PMI AS A HARD WORKING BLUE COLLAR AMERICAN WITH A FAMILY AM APALLED TO THE STENCH THAT IS WRITING IN HERE TELLING US THERE IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT! WHAT IT WILL TAKE AND I AM SORRY TO SAY IS THAT ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE TURNED YOUR CHEEK AND HAVE BLED OTHERS DRY WITH YOUR CORUPT WAYS,THERE IS NO ROOM FOR PEOPLE AS YOURSELF IN THIS SOCIETY. WHAT YOUR SPECIES NEEDS TO DO IS GET A ISLAND SOMEWHERE TAKE YOUR ILLEAGAL STOLEN MONEY YOU HAVE AQUIRED THROUGH TIME THROUGH ALL OF YOUR B.S.FROM THE SIMPLE HARD WORKING HONEST PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA AND GO TO YOUR ISLAND AND LIVE AMONGST ONE ANOTHER,GIVE BACK THIS SOIL THAT YOU HAVE CORRUPTED THROUGH TIME! SEE YOU CAN NOT LIE-CHEAT AND STEAL FOREVER AS EVEN THE BEST OF DOGS HAS THERE DAY! YOUR DAY WAS HERE LONG AGO HOWEVER MORE TRAVISTY HAD TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE CAT COULD START TO GET OUT OF THE BAG FOR ALL TO SEE. THAT HAPPENED WITH THE LAST STIMULAS AND THE FAT CAT RUNNING IT DOWN THE SEWER DRAIN AS FAST AS IT WAS IN THERE HANDS! NAMEING A BASEBALL STADIUM WITH OUR MONEY? RENOVATING BATHROOMS WITH OUR MONEY? HOW THE HELL DO YOU TAKE TAX PAYERS HARD EARNED MONEY AND RENIVATE BATHROOMS IN EXCESS OF 2 MILLION! THEY HAVE DONE IT FOREVER,STOLE,STOLE,STOLE! CALIFORNIA COLLECTS 11 MILLION IN TAX DOLLARS FROM MARIJUANA SALES LAST YEAR ALONE? WHAT THE HELL HAVE WE BECOME? NOT LEGAL IN ANY OTHER STATE TO SELL MARIJUANA BUT CALIFORNIA? ARE THEY PART OF THE UNITED STATES STILL? WHAT,11 MILLION X 52 STATES,AND YOU WANT TO BLEED US THE HARD WORKING POOR-LOWER-MIDDLE CLASS AGAIN! YOU JUST HIT US A FEW SHORT MONTHS AGO! LET THESE DEGENERATE THIEFS THAT HAVE PUT US IN THIS POSITION OPEN THERE POCKETS AND TAKE OUT WHAT THEY STOLE!AND LOCK THOSE PEANUT BUTTER PEOPLE UP AS WELL! HOW HARD CAN THAT BE TO DO BECOUSE IN ANY OTHER INSTANCE THIS IS CALLED PRE-MEDITATED MURDER!
lglgMessage #91 - 02/05/09 03:50 PMWE HAD A CHANCE OR TWO BACK IN 2004 TO CORRECT THE CORPORATE BEHAVIOR,BUT WE IGNORED THE SIGNS.WE WOULD HEAR THINGS LIKE,LETS REDUCE THE WORK STAFF TO IMPROVE THE BOTTOM LINE FOR THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND STOCK HOLDERS?WRONG MOVE,WHY IS THE COMPANY NOT MAKING ENOUGH TO SUSTAIN THE WORK NUMBER?THESE CORP.HEADS DID NOT ADDRESS THE REAL PROBLEM,ONLY HID THE REASONS FOR DOWNSIZING THE WORK STAFF.WELL NOW WE ARE IN A DEPRESSION FIX,THE ONLY THING GOING TO REVERSE THIS, AT THIS LATE DATE IS A WAR OR A SPACE PROGRAM PUTTING US INTO A GREAT DISCOVERY, NEW ELEMENTS AND NEW INDUSTRY TO MOBILIZE THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.MY FEELING IS THE LATTER,BUT WILL THE THIRD WORLD SUCH AS IRAN,WITH A YEAR OR LESS TO GO IN DEVELOPING ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM ALLOW A PEACEFUL TRANSITION TO OUR GREAT FRONTIER,OR WILL WE ONCE AGAIN HAVE TO RESCUE THE WORLD FROM THESE MAD ISLAMIC FANATICAL TERRORISTS.THESE CONDITIONS WORK HAND IN HAND.EVERYONE MUST CLIMB ON BOARD TO ACHIEVE A COMMON DESIRE TO CORRECT AND SUSTAIN OUR ECONOMY,THOSE ROGUE COUNTRIES WHO WANT TO DESTROY THESE GOALS MUST BE ADDRESSED BEFORE WE CAN MOVE FOWARD.GRIDLOCK IS NOT AN OPTION,ISOLATIONISM IS NOT AN OPTION, WE MUST FACE THE PROBLEMS HEAD ON AND CORRECT THEM,HOUSING,JOBS,INFRASTRUCTURE,ETC.THE HOLE IS GETTING BIGGER,SO IS THE ACCELERATION.
doctor in LAMessage #92 - 02/05/09 03:54 PMAmerica, put down the kool-aid, stop worshiping and salivating over the Anti Christ Obama. Wake up from your little phony dreams that this poor excuse of a man will help you and realize this.... WE ALREADY ARE IN A DEPRESSION AND YOU ARE STUCK WITH NO WAY OUT. In closing remember, you voted for him, NOW SUFFER. Now go get a job and have a nice day.
RangerdanMessage #93 - 02/05/09 03:54 PMMr. Jubak hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the component of human behavior as the difficult part of coming up with a stimulus that will work. Business and political ethics are at an all time low in our leadership, while the lack of true American patriotism is nearly non-existent. The Republican party has become the exclusive party of the rich rather than the party of controlled spending and smaller government. And Democrats can't build a bill without injecting so much pork into it that it becomes nearly unrecognizable. Both are so dependant on huge infusions of cash from special interest groups that what the American people demand has become secondary to the demands of special interests. I'm afraid that the only way a workable stimulus package can be crafted is to totally revamp the American political system, outlawing all special interest group donations and gifts, strict term limits, line item vetoes for the president. A bipartisan coalition of level headed political and business leaders to step forward and bring back an atmosphere of cooperation that is based on a mission statement of doing the right thing for the American people. The most difficult part is resurrecting American Patriotism in light of the narcissistic generations that have replaced the WWII generation. The belief that the fulfillment of the individual outweighs the betterment of the society, is going to be the achilles heal of anything that is done. Good luck America, we're going to need it.
PatersMessage #94 - 02/05/09 03:54 PMEconomic conditions are bad-----no question, but something equivalent to the 1930's Great Depression most economists doubt will occur. Then you get an article like this. As FDR said, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself". Well , maybe it's time to be a little nervous, but only if everyone sits on their disposable income enmasse will we see those days again. At least let's hope and pray so and try to maintain confidence with hope that our government will provide enough help (with our money of course) to provide us with the resources we need to get going again. Part of that equation is just gaining some confidence again and stopping the gloom and doom talk.
decoy409Message #95 - 02/05/09 03:56 PMI SEE YOU ARE ONE OF THE FAT CATS FUELING THE FIRE OF COLLAPSE. FOR IF YOU ARE NOT YOU SURE ARE STUPID! YOU NEED TO DO A LITTLE WORK WITH YOUR WHITE GLOVED HANDS! THE NEWSPAPER IS ABUNDANT FOR STARTERS AND SINCE YOU ARE HERE ON THE COMPUTER TRY BBC NEWS. PEOPLE ARE BEING SLAMMED THIS WAY AND THEY DO NOT MIND SHOWING YOU THERE LOSSES ON THERE 401 OR COMPANY STOCK OR LAID OFF SLIP OR SORRY TERMINATED SLIP. AS WELL YOU MUST REALLY BE MISSING SOME NUMBERS OF THE 3.1 MILLION STILL OUT OF WORK AND MORE THAN LIKELY NEVER TO GO BACK AS THEY HAVE BEEN OUT OF THERE JOBS SINCE THE END OF 2007! NOBODY AND I MEAN NOBODY NEEDS TO LISTEN TO ANYMORE B.S. FROM THOSE AS YOURSELF FAT CAT! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES! JUST WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THOSE AS YOURSELF WILLING TO SELL YOUR BROTHER OUT DOWN THE ROAD FOR A POCKET OF STOLEN MONEY!
lovdabeerMessage #96 - 02/05/09 03:57 PMITS TOO LATE, ECONOMY WON'T RECOVER, STOP UP ON POTATOS AND BULLETS FOLKS.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:33:30 GMT -5
lovdabeerMessage #97 - 02/05/09 03:57 PMSTOCK
OldwizMessage #98 - 02/05/09 03:58 PMAll systems fluctuate or cycle in time including manmade ones like the economy. This downturn will eventually pass. Unfortunately it will be a severe one. It seems to me that manufacturing, adding value to raw materials, is the heart of any economy. All other sectors depend on it. Over the years the US has slowly outsourced manufacturing overseas. Think of all the industries that have pretty much left the country. Years ago I began to worry, given these trends, about how we are going to keep all of our citizens gainfully employed in the future. The longer term trends such as the above plus an increasing reliance on foreign oil (we were 1/3 dependent in 1973 vs. 2/3 dependent now) have combined with shorter term dislocations such as real estate speculation. So the fundamentals for the US economy are very weak now. And there is a lot of fear, too, which has made things worse. Mass psychology is playing a role.
Genii111Message #99 - 02/05/09 03:59 PMThese "seasonally adjusted" unemployment numbers are extremely inaccurate, as they only take into account the people filing for new unemployment claims. What about the part-timers and people who were working through the holidays that have lost their jobs? They don't qualify for unemployment and therefore are not counted in the official numbers. These "official" unemployment numbers are horrificially inaccurate and therefore I don't believe much else that we are being told. The media in this country is every bit as sensored as in China and the Soviet Union, but at least they were honest enough to tell their people about it - over here it's still smoke and mirrors. Look around your community and you'll see the REAL news of the day....and it ain't pretty!
renotomMessage #100 - 02/05/09 04:00 PMMy take is we are already there. Proportionately and with all adjusted for inflation, we're working with a different base line than the depression our parents and grandparents went through. Unfortunately, we no longer have a manufacturing base to resurrect or support. We'll have to start anew there. We could revive a form of WPA but it'll be largely an organization to "rework" what was done during the great depression of the 30's. Just goes to show you, when you start to believe in your superior intelligence to create and propogate ways to enrich your life, you have no base to fall back on. It's time for all of us to go back in time and understand that "work" is something you do with your body and "thinking" is something you do with your mind. Let's put America back to work!
RangerdanMessage #101 - 02/05/09 04:00 PMWe voted for him? He did all this in 2 weeks? Where have you been for the last 8 years. George the World Wrecker was slinging his sledehammer at 80% of Americans while his tribe was getting richer. This is how history will view him in a thousand years when an archaeolgist finds his gold encrusted tomb.
RangerdanMessage #102 - 02/05/09 04:07 PMThey also don't account for the people who have exhausted unemployment insurance and still can't find a job. The new American lower class!
copperguyMessage #103 - 02/05/09 04:08 PMMr. Markman: You get paid to write and so you do. However, what you write only adds to the problem our nation faces. No one is capable of seeing the future because it has not yet occurred, and yet that is exactly what you and most of the media attempt to report day after day. What is your real message? It's negative, it's doom and gloom, and little else. Perhaps if you and those like you printed something positive things might just get a bit better. Predicting human behavior as you say can't be done with mathematical models, but the effect of a constant barrage of negativity does have a profound effect on folks. If you want things to get better quicker then just shut-up. Folks may just open their wallets again if they don't here they are on the titanic every time they watch or read the news. Give us a break and find something positive to say.
JROBI27102002Message #104 - 02/05/09 04:09 PMALL WE WILL STAY IN THIS DOWNTURN UNTIL, THE OWNERS AND CEO'S OF SMALL AND LARGE "C" AND "S" CORPORATIONS REALIZE THEY DO NOT DESERVE THE PAY THEY ARE RECEIVING AND INSTEAD OF LAYOFFS THEY SHOULD CONSIDER A PAY CUT: ITS NOT ALWAYS ABOUT THE TOP GUYS.
nanokMessage #105 - 02/05/09 04:11 PMI think we are in this depression not because of capitalism or greed, but because of the socialist agenda perpetrated by the liberals in Congress who lowered standards and blinded our watchdogs. The socialist agenda in the true cancer that kills man and his spirit!
RangerdanMessage #106 - 02/05/09 04:12 PMThere is a one word answer to our country's dilema that will fix everything EBAY!
BringnusbackMessage #107 - 02/05/09 04:12 PMyep you got it outscourceing was a VERY BAD IDEA . american workers are the backbone of this country they ve broken americas backbone now were in more and more pain cause of it . NO INSURANCE TO GET SUGURY EITHER LOL... plus they need to create midlevel jobs in the 15 25 an hr bracket EN MASSE. not everyone can learn a college level education . SOMETIMES I WONDER ABOUT SOME COLLEGE EDUCATED PEOPLE THEY RUN EVERYTHING AND FAIL. some people i know that have only a highschool education have and make more sense than the bookworm crowd. i think were still haeded for a moderate depression. investors should start new companies with fresh ideas employ people in this country pay them fair wages focous on honsest and fair business ethics and unpresidented customer service . let the companies that have screwed us to fail and new ones emerge. this country cannot survive alone on a consumer based economy . thats some of the problem when people are nt spending money that type of economy will struggle.Also if people do start saving and cut spending even when IF? things get better it will affect it too. BRING BACK THE LITTLE GUY; BIG GUYS HAVE FAILED AND SCREWED US UP BADDDDD. REMEMBER STRENGTH IN NUMBERS SO LETS SPEAK UPPP.
FunnybonzeMessage #108 - 02/05/09 04:17 PMWe are in the early stages of a Great Depression. People can still call is a recessions, a deep recession or whatever, but when you have airlines, banks, businesses going under, merging to stay afloat, housing market falling and prices dropping, and large numbers of people being laid off and companies not buying from overseas, we then have reached the early stages of a depression. Shelters are over burdened, food-banks are nit getting a lot of donations, even the recycling business is going under because there is no money in it today. Thrift stores are suffering and closing down for the poor and homeless people... Churches are not seeing as many donations, and they should be taxed (in my opinion)! Schools laying off teachers and employees, colleges doing the same... The bailout money is going into the wrong hands. Instead of putting it into businesses that tanked, we need to put it directly into the hands pf the people so they can SPEND it and put it back into circulations. The bailout money is nothing more than government helping the rich and making the poor pay for it. Why give auto makers more money to build cars, when they can't sell the existing ones they already have on their lots. If the people don't have money to buy (except the government employees) then there will just be more cars not selling sitting around on lots. However, then the government can use it as an excuse to get energy efficient cars for themselves, and that's what it's all about. Give them billions to make energy efficient cars, then they don't sell because the poor cannot afford them, so the government pretends to do a nice gesture and buy the fleet at a cost (poor people will pick up the tab on this one too), and pretend they are helping out the economy, but in actuality, helping out themselves like they have always done. WE have a government here in the US that is more corrupt than any other government in the world. America is falling, and this time America will not rebound so quickly!!! 
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:34:22 GMT -5
RangerdanMessage #109 - 02/05/09 04:19 PMNanok, you don't think it had anything to do with deregulating banks and giving them the right to invest as they please, giving them the ability to invest all of their money in risky loans instead of keeping a large portion of their cash in case something unexpected happens, ala Mr. Reagan. You don't think it had anything to do with greedy CEO's making risky investments to baloon profits so 400 million dollar mega-bonuses can be acquired? Really?
Adele1953Message #110 - 02/05/09 04:24 PMThere is no doubt in my mind we are headed for a Depression. There has never been a country in economic distress that "spent" it's way back into prosperity. The US is about to float a couple trillion dollars in bonds out into the market at a time when our two largest buyers (OPEC countries and China) are themselves in a cash crunch. No buyers means no money to fund this latest boondoggle. That is probably a blessing in disguise. Unfortunately for most Americans, they have surrendered themselves to the idea that they can do nothing to save themselves financially on a personal level and are waiting for the Government to make everything all better. That particular road can lead only to disappointment. The smart ones saw this coming a long time ago and started planning for a day like this. My husband and I started looking for an alternate source of income in 2006 and found foreign currency (Forex) trading. Fortunately for us, we stumbled across someone who knew what he was doing (J.J. Glenellis) , and we learned the right way to take advantage of the markets from day one. Now we have a cash reserve (offshore, in Switzerland, held in Euros) waiting for the day when the Dollar hyper-inflates into worthlessness. That day is fast approaching, and will devastate most Americans. But the warning signs have been many, and easy to spot. You have no one to blame but yourself if you get caught short in the next few months.
Just enter your preferred display name belowMessage #111 - 02/05/09 04:24 PM Too late to avoid a depression?
Policymakers are quickly running out of time and room for error. And even a brilliant plan -- which we haven't seen yet -- could fail without some good luck. [Related content: [moneycentral.msn.com/money.search?q=economy] economy, [moneycentral.msn.com/money.search?q=recession] recession, [moneycentral.msn.com/money.search?q=politics] politics, [moneycentral.msn.com/money.search?q=Jon Markman] Jon Markman, [moneycentral.msn.com/money.search?q=financial crisis] financial crisis] By [articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Commentary/Experts/Markman/Jon_Markman.aspx] Jon Markman MSN Money
Over the past week, the world's intellectual, business, government and philanthropic elite emerged from [www.weforum.org/en/index.htm] World Economic Forum meetings in Davos, Switzerland, with grim faces and warnings of financial doom. You'd almost think they'd met to plot a suicide pact rather than global trade, as the headlines were so gory they could have been mulched into meals for vampires.
Are things really that bad? Maybe not. Your contrarian antennae really have to go up in the face of consensus from a cohort of eggheads, politicos and jet-setters not exactly known for clairvoyance. Their big idea last year: that emerging markets' domestic economies had become so strong that a decline in U.S. and European growth would not derail them. Oops.
Credible economic analysts now say there is still a narrow window of time in which policymakers in the United States, Europe and Asia can avoid a meltdown over the next year by immediately coordinating the injection of real financial adrenaline to banks, companies, households and local governments -- not just rhetoric and indiscriminate spending. Yet that window is closing fast, and if the right steps are not taken soon it may be shut for years.
But governments don't know which steps work because economic theory breaks down at the level of human psychology. Given a set of stimuli -- ranging from tax cuts and longer unemployment benefits to new construction jobs and wider broadband access -- economists try to mathematically determine the choices citizens are likely to make, then use the results to recommend a policy mix to legislators.
The problem is that the models often fail to accurately forecast human behavior, and politicians regularly screw it all up by ignoring the data and diverting funds to pet projects. History is rife with successful financial episodes, such as the New Deal, in which luck and coincidence are later misinterpreted as results of prescient planning. Are our leaders so far out of touch with reality that they do not know that merely creating jobs that pay great that really produce tangible things that people want at a price they can afford will work 100 percent of the time. Give me a break they say that Hitler was mad and evil but even he knew that and got Germany out of it's great depression and we had to change policy and hire people building real things to defeat him which in turn got us out of our great depression. I have had with policy makers who can not think anymore and are only after the money like that Balcko what ever his name was the governor of the Great State of Illinois. We have failed to educate our children after throwing billions of dollars at them as we hire teachers who never learned anything when they went to school. Remember those commercials which asked why Johnny could not read when I was young? Well guess what Johnny grew up and as there were no teachers around he was hired to teach the kids. Use to be very bright women only had two places to get a job in the hospitals as nurses and in the schools as teachers. That is why our older people had real teachers because the brightest women went into schools to teach us as they had no where else to go. Now we are just looking for warm bodies to educate our kids with out really looking too hard at whether or not they can do the job. It is clear they can not do the job as we have a bunch of uneducated crooks running everything now and no one can make decisions anymore. Look Obama just build the stainless steel monrail transit systems in all the cities without a subway and lines connecting the cities togethere and the US will become a world leader in two months again. Fail to do anything like this and hand more money to the crooked Wall Street bankers and America becomes part of the third worl
FunnybonzeMessage #112 - 02/05/09 04:25 PMThe truth is, people, that we are nowhere near the horrific reality of the 1930's - and we will NEVER be again. Some people really need to get their heads out of their azz and see what is happening in America. CALIFORNIA is broke! They are talking about handing out vouchers to employees and IOU's for their income tax. Most other states are going through the same dilemma. What are we going to do? Bail out every state politician that mismanage and hoard all the money for themselves and their friends. REVOLUTION is now being discussed, because the people need to band together and take back their country from these corrupt politicians that are not just power hungry, but money hungry too. Why would anyone pay out millions to one man for doing a job he's already been paid a salary to do. Do you see other people in the work force getting millions for doing a great job at their work place? No! They get a $50 or $250 gift card and they are happy, but to give any one person millions for a job he was already paid a salary to do, then give him a $500 gift card and no more. GREED will be the demise of this country and the rest of the world!
PatersMessage #113 - 02/05/09 04:25 PMWell said, Michael.
BringnusbackMessage #114 - 02/05/09 04:28 PMBALLLLOOOOONNNYYYY GREED NOT SOCIALISIM HAS DESTROYED US I THINK SOME OF THOSE CORPORATE PEOPLE HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER TO HAVE AND MAKE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND THAT S NOT ENOUGH > >>> like those people who take in 100 stray cats and they are living in filfth and being starved cause the person cant care for them is considered a disorder . not that everyone who does take in stays is like that but some feel so sorry for them it gets out of control.
RangerdanMessage #115 - 02/05/09 04:30 PMThese are the times that the smartest investors make the most money. I just bought a whole truckload of genuine Gucci purses straight out of Mexico at half price. Whahoo, I'm gonna be a billionaire.
tnjrMessage #116 - 02/05/09 04:32 PMGeorge Denver - don't give up. I get depressed about what I lost in the market and what's still at risk. So I pinned a picture of my nephew's 4 year old sitting on my lap where we are both wearing my favorite teams hockey jersey at my work desk. When the market goes down, I look at this picture and realize what we live for. Your family and friends are more important then money. Count your blessings.
fastEMessage #117 - 02/05/09 04:33 PMA decade or so ago, "they" let us little guys have a change(so they said), to play the markets and build for a secure retirement. Now who's got all the working classes invested money? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME! Not gonna happen. No interest is better than a big loss of principle. The government will own more of our land when this is over. Taken for no tax payments just like last time.
FunnybonzeMessage #118 - 02/05/09 04:33 PM [moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=264020] Rangerdan Message #115
02/05/09 10:30 AM
These are the times that the smartest investors make the most money. I just bought a whole truckload of genuine Gucci purses straight out of Mexico at half price. Whahoo, I'm gonna be a billionaire.
Actually, if people don't have the money to spend, they aren't going to buy. So you just bought yourself a load of musty purses that will end up either in a thrift store or the garbage. The fact you bought them in Mexico tells everyone they are cheap knock-offs that you purchased!
robertcr234Message #119 - 02/05/09 04:43 PMThe solution is simple. The problem with economy is the American consumer has been killed with the last round of credit problems. Give all US citizens a second life with a line of credit of $50,000 at 2% and let them pay it back over 10 years. Make them payoff all their credit card debt, buy a GM car and buy a house to live in. This will make a quick impact.
Maestro 101Message #120 - 02/05/09 04:47 PMBetter yet, give most of us $150,000 (tax free) rebate, and never have to pay it back!! That would certainly jump-start the economy!!
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:35:13 GMT -5
oilfldtrshMessage #121 - 02/05/09 04:49 PMWhy bail out Banks and other Corporations? Is it really possible to rebuild from the top down? Let's give just a fraction of the Billions and Billions to the American people that are tax payers only. Split the bail out money between all tax payers evenly. Make it so the people are paying off their own loans (witch would pay off all the banks), then if there is any left over make us (the people) invest in the stock market ( witch would pick back up after banks were paid off). This would stop all or most of the Nations foreclosures, letting the housing market stabilize. While we are at it let's cut off all foreign energy (oil, gas,and ect.), we have everything we need right here in the USA. This would then cut unemployment rates allowing for more jobs. Then you (THE GOVERNMENT) could tax us (the people) even more so at least then you would get paid back. This is rebuilding the economy from the bottom up. Just a few ideas, this is probably much to simple the ever work. Your idea is probably better, tax the people give the money to Corporations that screwed it all up in the first place and what ever is left give to the non tax paying leaches that suck the system dry.
euionMessage #122 - 02/05/09 04:50 PMGuys, the end of the world was predicted few times before. America did not die even after the real depression, when the unemployment was over 25%. We are at less than 8%, i.e. a good showing for a west European country. Our politicians want us to believe it is the end of the world, so they can spend our trillions for their ideological agenda. Yes economy needs help from the government. Not to increase the size of the government, but to put the banks back in business (with a better oversight of the crooks). Private business cost about one third to create a job vs. the government job. And that job produces something useful for the people. Therefore private business is to be helped. Everybody is scared of the American people frugality lately. No, this is our fellow Americans coming to the common sense of living within their means and saving (5% is just right and now we save only 3%). Be optimistic my fellow Americans. Optimism is what makes our people great!
Reason_FreedomMessage #123 - 02/05/09 04:52 PMGive all US citizens a second life with a line of credit of $50,000 at 2% and let them pay it back over 10 years. Sure, then the government that gives us this money has to pay 3 percent or more on it? We will make a whole lot of money doing it that way. Will I guess we will, but future generations can pick up the bill for it.
bubba1939Message #124 - 02/05/09 04:52 PM im old enough to remember my parents and grandparents talking about the great depression and it seems like we are in the same basic shape we were in then Nobody has a clue which way to turn .. will a bailout work , only if they get the real money to the real people that use it to get the economy moving the bankers and polititions are all thieves doing nothing for the good of the country ,taking bailout money to fatten there own accounts stop the lobbiests and the pork that are added to bills in the house and senate and just run the country.
MaplebardMessage #125 - 02/05/09 04:53 PMThe time is coming soon when Treasury will have an auction and no one will show up. Since the government now is operating solely on borrowing, that should be fun. The difference between the great depression and now is debt. Both the government and the people are in debt up to their ears. Which makes the potential for this depression to be far worse, because the government will have no options. Conceivably, if the GDP falls enough, 100 % of the tax revenues may not even cover the interest on the debt we already have taken on in this last binge of "bailouts." So I guess the Libertarians will get their wish of less government. Too bad the price will be so high.
chrisvbMessage #126 - 02/05/09 04:55 PMthe reason manufacturers went to foreign countries is largely because things are cheaper to operate . those governments give them tax exemptions to locate ,cheap power and labour . If we are to entice them back to the u.s. , there has to be a lowering of operating cost in north america. Costly mandated (federal, state, unions etc) programs that have nothing to do with production , need to be reviewed and cut to the bone. Only if we can compete with the rest of the world will we get back to prosperity by an export driven economy.
Jollean_bMessage #127 - 02/05/09 04:58 PMHi Guys, Here are some of the things that I think and feel. First, this IS a modern day depression even if you don't want to think that it is. The only difference between the depression of the 30's and this depression is that we have better technology and therefore certain things can be controlled better than yesteryear, but don't worry, this is a depression. What we have to do is be very careful about how we are spending our moneys at this point. The problem is the fact that we are global because now not only do we have to fix our financial situation, but other nations have to fix theirs as well in order for anything to work. Second, this time it all began with the banking institutions lending money to those who could not afford to pay the money back, CEO's taking super big bonuses, the passing out of credit cards, and who knows what all. GREED, GREED, GREED that is the problem. And still, now that we have started the bailout process, the people on Wall Street gave themselves bonuses with some of the money, can you believe that? GREED, GREED, GREED, this is what we haven't learned yet. I know that my 401k/nest egg has lost lots and lots of money, and on Feb. 11 the company that my husband works for is having an "all hands meeting" where they will be talking about the financial well being of the company will be talked about and what is going to happen in the next couple of quarters. If that is not scary, I don't know what is. So what we are doing is not spending like all the rest of the people, I am going to a job that I don't like every day because there is nothing else out there and I am hoping for the best. And we are not making any big buys until this mess is all over. Anyway, call it what you want, but believe me this is a depression!!!!!
randynchinaMessage #128 - 02/05/09 05:01 PMSome of the more painful social consequences of this depression are hidden. Mexican and Central American laborers have gone home for Christmas and won't be coming back in the same numbers. This traditional migration is one reason why we don't see bread lines in the cities. The most vulnerable have left. Next December will certainly be worse though. A second year of saving rather than spending is going to make the retail picture perfectly clear. When an economy is based on consumerism and people become unable to buy, there can be only one result. Saving is not the problem though, it's just an indication of the distortion we have depended on. We cannot expect to buy big screen TVs and cool wheels for our cars without actually making the money to pay for them.
Reason_FreedomMessage #129 - 02/05/09 05:03 PMWhy bail out Banks and other Corporations? Is it really possible to rebuild from the top down? Let's give just a fraction of the Billions and Billions to the American people that are tax payers only. Split the bail out money between all tax payers evenly. Make it so the people are paying off their own loans (witch would pay off all the banks), then if there is any left over make us (the people) invest in the stock market ( witch would pick back up after banks were paid off). This would stop all or most of the Nations foreclosures, letting the housing market stabilize. While we are at it let's cut off all foreign energy (oil, gas,and ect.), we have everything we need right here in the USA. This would then cut unemployment rates allowing for more jobs. Then you (THE GOVERNMENT) could tax us (the people) even more so at least then you would get paid back. This is rebuilding the economy from the bottom up. Just a few ideas, this is probably much to simple the ever work. Your idea is probably better, tax the people give the money to Corporations that screwed it all up in the first place and what ever is left give to the non tax paying leaches that suck the system dry. If we gave all of the bail out money to the tax payers they might be able to pay off one or two payments. You seriously need to bone up on your math ability.
comsenseMessage #130 - 02/05/09 05:04 PMOur government is not the answer, its the problem. We have a basketful of problems with government, including regulations no one can understand, a tax system that is broken, state and local governments that have become problematic emulating the federal level of mismanagement. Our monetary system is no different. This morning I heard a debate about limiting salary levels of executives at bailed out banks. It's socialism they cried! Well what is government subsidy loans for failed companies? It's purely socialist! We must and I repeat MUST allow incompetently run entities to fail. It will CLEAN our economy of the excesses. A true government overhaul cannot begin until we rid ourselves of the current tax system. It is broken, broken, broken beyond repair. A new system of taxation to support a basic government that is trimmed, lean and serves the public is needed. This will be the end result. I will not live long enough for this to happen, it will take decades of unrest, social upheaval to cleanse our society. I pray for my grandchildren and they and future generations will eventually see a brighter day. One last thing, we cannot get in the mindset of borrowing our way to better days. DEBT is what got us here and more DEBT will make it worse.
lovdabeerMessage #131 - 02/05/09 05:07 PMGood thinking Dan, how can I get in on this?
randynchinaMessage #132 - 02/05/09 05:08 PMOptimism never made anyone great! This situation cannot be addressed with positive thinking and there is no history of optimism having anything to do with American development. Perhaps you are trying to suggest we have confidence in our ability to overcome difficult times. The building of the trans-continental railroad during the Civil War might be the best example. When this railroad was in place it had a huge influence on production. Resources and workers were moved to the right places. Of course, this also led to the worst examples of corporated executives grabbing profits and deceiving investors.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:36:05 GMT -5
SmackmanMessage #133 - 02/05/09 05:09 PMIn defense of Mr. Markham: He is factoring in objective data and projecting forward a conceptualization. That's what smart people do. Not so smart people are ruled by their emotions. They don't want a crash so they don't want to hear the facts. Then, they wish others to say nothing bad because they believe that if there are no bad words, there will be no badness. The definition of a game that relies on trust alone is... a confidence game. The banking system has crashed for goodness sake! The faux system of leverage unbound from moral hazard has reached it's ultimate dead end. Don't blame the symptoms - assign blame to root causes. I personally believe the root cause to be a fiat currency, unbridled debt and plenty of pennies in the fuse box to keep the good times rolling. The things that I blame and wish reversed (if that's even possible at this juncture) are absolute metaphysical concretes to the Keynesian/Welfare/Statist planners. That's why we're down the hole and won't get out (temporarily) until they figure out who is going to kill each other again. I agree with Mr. Markham - The ball bat is in mid-arch at the entire world's head. We have yet to feel the full impact of what has already happened or in motion. The full impact once realized will cause more things to happen. Perceive and conceive...and hideth yourself. Oh - and don't blame capitalism - It relies on objective values and rules. Have we ever had pure capitalism? - No - but we prospered in relationship to our approximation of the Ideal. The definition of Fascism is private ownership with heavy governmental control - with a touch of 'Buy American' thrown in. That's what we've really been for quite awhile. Now we're embracing socialism while we blame capitalism's failures...Whew!
TruePatriot71Message #134 - 02/05/09 05:11 PMWe are in big trouble. This is going to only get worse over the next few years. I hope folks learned from their grandparents from when they went through their depression and have listened to that advice. I remember mine saying avoid debt at all costs if possible. Only go into debt for a home. Don't buy pricey cars unless you can pay for them cash or most of it in cash because you don't want to pay interest. The interest you'll save will buy food and other things so don't be so quick to give your hard earned money to others. Keep at least 3-6 months of your monthly bills in the bank. This is difficult but is possible if you live within your means, in other words don't spend as much as you make. Live in a home that will allow you to have a lower payment enough to save a little extra until you can meet these goals. Keep a little extra food in the pantry or spare bedroom and rotate through it. If there is a crisis and food is hard to come by for a few weeks then you'll be ok. Store the same kinds of food that you like to eat and rotate through it so it's always fresh and tasty, eating well in a crisis relieves some of the stress. Store enough water as well for obvious reasons. Do not pay interest on credit cards. Making minimum payments on an average balance of $10,000 will take you over 20 years to pay off that card. 20 years! because the interest rates and hidden fees on many cards are very high. This is good advice to live by, their depression was so bad they had to cut out card board the same size as their shoes and place it inside their shoes to help cover up the holes in the bottom of their shoes to keep them lasting longer. They were rationed the bare essentials of basic food items and given tokens to use to trade for these items. They had to make due for years with what they already had when things hit the fan. Buying a simple Coke became a novelty, a coke! Anyway folks, they are saying we may have up to a year before we enter into a depression. Get your affairs in order and be smart how you spend your money from here on out. God speed.
lovdabeerMessage #135 - 02/05/09 05:11 PMThis is what you get when the worlds economies are run on money that doesn't exist (credit). When we live beyond our means and on credit we crash at some point, so why wouldn't the worlds economies do the same. So hang on we are going to crash, and crash hard. We haven't seen the worse yet.
LaughingAtOptimistMessage #136 - 02/05/09 05:11 PMIt is the entrepreneurship of individuals wanting to make a better life for them and theirs that creates healthy markets. It is the resentful who use government to gang up on the industrious to take away the product of their efforts to get a little for themselves... i.e., free healthcare, free food, free whatever.... the lazy, resentful person who doesn't want to turn off the tv and do a little extra work uses the mob power of democracy and government to steal from others. I doubt any of them would try and force money away from others directly... cowards. They want guns taken away from people but they are for the government using guns to take from people the product of their industry... criminals they are. We are in the position we are in because the lazy mobsters who want someone else to buy their kids a swing set for their neighborhood, or they want someone else to teach their kids with a public education system that is accountable to no one, or they want free this, or free that... have taken all the money out of the markets and put it into the hands of government who are all too willing to dip into it themselves. It is self-centered laziness which has brought this country to its knees. Money is stolen at gunpoint by government and redistributed to the lazy, unworthy self-aggrandizing worthless masses who pat themselves on their collective back for being so "compassionate." Meanwhile they one who worked hard to build something that will provide for themselves the lifestyle they want are castigated by stupid people as being greedy! Shut up you moron. We see right through your thinly veiled, self-serving machinations. Every day I watch the market and hope this thing just falls completely flat to the dust from which it arose. Then the anti-fur people will be slaughtering animals for clothing. The abortionist will be bearing their children so they have help working the measly patch of land they have and the rest will be standing in food handout lines, begging like the low life scum they are. Cowards, gangsters and mobsters. Not brave enough to take directly from another but oh so willing to empower a government which is a pit of corrupt vipers to do it. Socialist, Progressives and the like are the scum of humanity. The funny thing about Progressives - they don't realize they are practicing a rehashed version of Feudalism - now that's progressive. I laugh at the demise that is about to befall this country. Let it burn.
reverendbarbMessage #137 - 02/05/09 05:15 PM
The difference between the great depression and now is debt. Both the government and the people are in debt up to their ears. Which makes the potential for this depression to be far worse, because the government will have no options. Agree - I think this is a point that a lot of people are overlooking...they talk about how it's not as bad as the 30's because unemployment is not 25% YET. This time IS different. We went from being the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor nation!!! And the economies of the world are now much more closely tied in with each other. We have no one left to BORROW from, much less pay off even the INTEREST on our national DEBT!!
Heart sick with it allMessage #138 - 02/05/09 05:16 PMTHERE IS NO DEPRESSION, it will start next year, after the govt bellies up and the dollar isn't worth anything.
llazyMessage #139 - 02/05/09 05:17 PMI'm with BGA. I took almost all our money out of the market a year ago. I'll live off it rather than let it get sucked up by thieves of wallstreet or washington. The felons get home arrest in their million $ penthouses and we get to bail out failing businesses while they suck up the dough and keep taking it home. We also get to prop up banks who don't have to tell us if or how they spend it. Nothings changed in housing.. now the flippers have gone from flipping new homes to flipping foreclosures.. they're dumping the ones that they're underwater in, and buying other foreclosures. The govt won't say where the bailouts went. It's simply theft and deception on every level. The greedheads won't be happy til they suck up every dime you have.
WIND_DANCERMessage #140 - 02/05/09 05:27 PMAre we in a depression? HE11 YES! Does the government think we're that stupid that we don't know this? Do they think we're all stupid that just because they say we're not, we believe them? Arrogant SOB's. We've dished out BILLIONS (yes WE, the tax payers) in bail outs only to find out other arrogant SOB's have given themselves MILLIONS in bonuses!! Greedy mutha's should be lined up against a wall and friggin shot! You really want to kick start the economy? BAIL US OUT!! Give every taxpaying American with a birth certificate and social security card $20,000 - $30,000 each! Bail US out and we'll bail the U.S. out, frigging morons! But don't take it from Josephine Nobody who only lives this frigging nightmare, wait until some over blown wind bag does a 5 year study and comes up with the same conclusion AND PAY HIM 750 MILLION DOLLARS FOR IT...FATASSSTUPIDFUKMORON
Heart sick with it allMessage #141 - 02/05/09 05:28 PMOk seriously, credit is a good thing, it is good for commerce. Those of you that think that you can't save these days, 7.5% on a money market, that's better than Wal-Street. Keeping people honest and honorable is a challenge and I've never seen so many people coming out of the woodwork. Uncle needs to be overhauled as the engine is gunked up. Poor Obama and any other person that would have been president would be over their heads with what is happening but Obama has good intentions I'm sure. Yes it will get worse but the cleansing will be good for us.
chrisvbMessage #142 - 02/05/09 05:31 PMlets assume for a second that the worse case scenario plays out and the u.s. dollar goes into hyper inflation. There are rumours about that already a new "currency" exist ,ready for its introduction. The AMERO? supposedly , this is something akin to the EURO but would serve mexico, u.s. , and canada . Does anyone have any input to that "buzz"??
patsfan420Message #143 - 02/05/09 05:39 PMBring the jobs back here!!!!! Is anyone talking about trade dedicits.
ElizebathMessage #144 - 02/05/09 05:40 PMI really dont know where to start. At the same time I don't want to affend anyone. I look back in the Bible. I know that things are going to get worse before it gets better. I also know that we are in for very hard times. If this was any other president. I believe for one second that they would get what they had ask for. What is wrong with change. Not a thing. The Government has to shape up and do what they need to do to get this Nation back on its feet again. Take the past presidents and make them give back their money to. Let them know just how hard it is for the average american to live. Are we supposed to grovel and beg for jobs, as jobs are being laid off. I know I know that i am becomming very ashamed to be an american, because of what our Nation has become and had been all along. I know that if things don't improve soon in the comming year. My family will be moving. Somewhere where it is safe to work without having to worry about losing our jobs. In my heart of hearts, I truely believe we are in the beginnings of depression. This time when it hits it is going to hit harder then the last depression, because alot of teens dont know how to survive with out their mp3 player, or video games. Really it is sad. I just pray for a mirical that it will not come to that, which is going to be the worst depression that this world has ever seen. As I said look In the Bible. You will find the answers in there that tell what is going to be, and there is nothing we can do to stop it.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:36:56 GMT -5
WIND_DANCERMessage #145 - 02/05/09 05:41 PMThe AMERO I heard about that awhile ago. Scary thing is, and I'm not Bible thumping here, but in Revelations there's something about a one world currency. Looking at everything today the signs seem to be lining up more and more.
What DepressionMessage #146 - 02/05/09 05:43 PMMy mom and dad went through the depression. They ate potatoes and had meat once a week if they were lucky. No cell phones, televisions or cars. Indoor plumbing - what's that. They walked the tracks in Chicago searching for coal to heat there homes. Dad finished 8th grade and mom got about two years of high school yet they were the smartest people I know. That's what depression is. Today we have a bunch of whining crybaby sissyboys and girls bemoaning the a 30% drop in their 401k's and calling it depression. They live in 3 or 4000 sf homes, have cable TV and eat 3 squares a day. The heat works in the winter and the air-conditioning cools them in the summer. They drink their wine and cocktails and bitch about how bad thing are. OK, maybe they lost their job but my God, remember how things were back when the peanut farmer was in charge. Did we wannabe depressionaire's survive that decade? YES!!!! People, things may be bad and we may be down but we're not out. Sure, your home value has dropped from some insane record highs that were unsustainable but if you weren't stupid and didn't over extend then you'll be OK. Suck it up sissyboys and girls and don't forget, don't allow your fear to overcome your good sense. Don't allow the government OR the press to scare you into believing that the sky is falling. Humans have inhabited this rock for a while now, albeit short by the cosmos clock, and we've done OK up till now. WE WILL SURVIVE!!! BELIEVE IN YOURSELVES, YOUR FAMILIES, FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, POP A COOL ONE TONIGHT AND ENJOY THE RIDE.
WIND_DANCERMessage #147 - 02/05/09 05:45 PMPOP A COOL ONE TONIGHT AND ENJOY THE RIDE Can't...it's only Thursday!
FunnybonzeMessage #148 - 02/05/09 05:46 PMRecession, Depression, now a REVOLUTION!!! Time to clean house (Government)!
k.richardMessage #149 - 02/05/09 05:49 PMOf course we are in a depression.....and the Mark to Market rules will insure it become an deep and protracted one. With the stroke of a pen the SEC, yes that body, could move the tailspin and free up allot of the cash that is now sitting in reserves AND give financial institutions some comfort that when the regulators come the next month, they are going to face massive additional write downs requiring MORE cash to go to reserves simply because they can't lend money in the face of potential write downs. Simply it's the old Catch-22 for the institutions. If they use their cash to lend, and the regulators continue the write down they are back in the market looking for even more cash!! Let's go back to either performing or under performing loans .... but that doesn't suit the political agenda of capital hill, the very people who got us here with the compounding of 40 years of bad government......yes, we are in real trouble.
BERYLLANCEMessage #150 - 02/05/09 05:49 PMONE MAN SAW IT ALL COMING FOR YEARS, AND TRIED TO WARN YOU ALL DURING THE CAMPAIGN, ONE MAN HAD A PLAN FOR A TWO YEAR RECOVERY,WITHOUT TAXES, WITHOUT SELLING OFF THE CHILDRENS FUTURE, WITH A SIMPLE RESPONSIBLE FISCAL APPROACH AND YOU SCOFFED AT HIM AND LAUGHED AT HIM. NOW YOU ARE GOING TO PAY THE PRICE OF POLITICAL IGNORANCE, GULLABILTY AND STUPIDITY. NOW YOUR STUCK WITH HOPING AND PRAYING. I MAY NOT HAVE JOB OR A PLACE TO LIVE, BUT IM GONNA HAVE GOOD TIME WEARING A "DONT BLAME ME, I VOTED FOR RON PAUL" T SHIRT WHILE LAUGHING AT YOU UNINFORMED MORONS.
UmmmEmploymentMessage #151 - 02/05/09 05:50 PMUnemployment both energizes and perpetuates fear. Job creation as its being described now is intended to replenish confidence via consumer wallets and pocketbooks. Yet the types of prospective jobs being tied to the end of the stick appear to have NO relation to those being slashed. No matter how much retraining, it is difficult to fathom a former pharmaceutical rep retooled to hang from a harness adjusting the pitch of wind turbine blade...provided there is anyone left to make such things. People see this. They wonder how this will improve their circumstance, much less when. These types of unknowns put a little extra torque into the downward spin in confidence. It therefore seems logical that efforts to save jobs must be a more visible and viable part of the package. Working people are far more likely to spend, albeit perhaps less, than the unemployed. An incentive to keep people working seems to hold more psychological appeal than bailing out companies that are slashing workers because their profit margin is being threatened. Unless the concept of profit has changed dramatically, profit money left over after all the bills are paid, including salaries. Yet companies are putting a band aid on severed artery with every round of layoffs. Every round of layoffs cuts twice; those without jobs and those who are still working, all are scared to spend. If companies are so fearful of having less extra profit money in their pockets, why should the diminishing consumer pool feel differently? For companies whose profits are being threatened, no layoffs or no money. For those worthwhile companies that are operating at a loss, layoffs are almost understandable. Yet, money should not be used to just keep them in business without a solid verifiable plan to create jobs within their sector.
mikey62Message #152 - 02/05/09 05:50 PMOK, I think we are in a big mess. that we all agree on. Thing is, how long and how deep will it be? I don't think anyone really knows that. What I do know is that all the fat cats,(Bush included) KNEW IT WAS COMING AND GOT THEIR MONEY OUT AND STASHED) So, what's in store for the little people? You see it on tv all day. Job loss, Housing loss,(depressed sales only and those are made by investors who of course have money),retirement funds loss, you got the picture. Oh, I agree we will get through this but what worries me is : crime will rise to an all time high, including violent crime. Already people are using craigslist to commit robberies. People will resort to whatever it takes to feed themselves and their families. I think the bailout is a joke. Why not just give the american people the money and let them spend it as they see fit. Its our tax dollars anyway. Believe me, you will see in improvement in the economy.
WIND_DANCERMessage #153 - 02/05/09 05:51 PMMy dad had 6 brothers and sisters. They grew up in the depression (near the end) and they used to have a shed in the backyard where they kept the coal for the furnace. They used to have to trudge out there in the winter and fill a couple pails with coal and bring it back into the house for the furnace. In the summer they used to CHEW on the coal!! Not the brightest bunch of kids... To this day he has no idea why they did that...lmao when he told me that!!
BGA4444Message #154 - 02/05/09 05:55 PMThat peanut farmer was the best man to ever grace the steps of the white house. You must think that things got bad because of what he did. He inherited that bad economy and put things into action that Reagan got all the credit for. He has built homes all over the world for habitat and you should be ashamed!!!
pslsisMessage #155 - 02/05/09 05:56 PMContrary to what most people think, Obama is on the right track when he says buy "american made". Injects money back into the U.S economy instead of other countries economies. The problem is America has let our quality become subpar, in exchange for paying outrageous wages and ridiculous profits.. People buy Imports because you get more for your money, better quality goods for the same amount of money. America's greedy nature has dug the U.S into a huge hole.
copperguyMessage #156 - 02/05/09 05:58 PMExcellent response and I share you opinion!
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:37:48 GMT -5
THE JAYCEMessage #157 - 02/05/09 06:00 PMwho ever thinks where not in a depression that will only worsen by the day must still have a job, but for how long is the real question? ?? Those of you who have not been affected yet, it's just a matter of time, so you can take that to the bank, thats of course if you can find one when it's your turn to go broke. It's all in gods hands now, and how many of us really deserve his help? makes you think doesnt it?
Citizen57Message #158 - 02/05/09 06:00 PMNow you tell me how you stop a runaway train. And this economy feels more and more like it with every passing day. I truly feel terrified by the most likely outcome of the situation which is no other than full blown depression. I wish I could say "everything is going to be all right" and it probably will in the end, but the price to pay till we get there it's going to be extremely high.
THE JAYCEMessage #159 - 02/05/09 06:07 PMgood story, now everything you mentioned about your parents is going to happen to us, including you. So maybe in the end we wont be sissyboys like you say including you too. You surly cant be one of those people that think somthing like this would never happen to you are you, because im sure your parents being so wise taught you that thats the first mistake people make. peace!
Mad Mom 2008Message #160 - 02/05/09 06:10 PMHere is a simple-minded plan. Banks put a one year moratorium on mortgage loans for persons that are having trouble paying. By delaying the mortgage payments for one year the homeowner can put the mortgage payments toward other outstanding bills. Once the year is up: the mortgage can be reinstated. The bank will still get the interest and payments, albeit delayed by one year. If the person still can't pay the mortgage payments after one year, then foreclosure procedures begin. I believe the way foreclosure works is if a person can't pay the payment he/she can live in the home for up to one year without paying the mortgage until the foreclosure is completed. If, on the other hand the homeowner had a respite to get other bills in order they may not have to start foreclosure proceedings which would save the bank about as much as no payments for a year. Ideas are what made America great. Mine may not be a good idea but it is better than nothing. Instead of bellyaching about whether or not we are in a recession/depression, let's saddle up the wild Mustang, pull up the boot straps, stop relying of government to do everything for us, and try to think of ways to keep the people of the United States of America fed and housed.
rwolfenMessage #161 - 02/05/09 06:14 PMlet's close more factories and send the jobs over seas that would be good for us. I would like to know who the stupid S.O.B was that though up that idea?
Richard_Arg.Message #162 - 02/05/09 06:20 PMLet me tell you our story. Back in 06 we were living the American dream/Nightmare. We had our house, two new cars, an 18' boat, three motorcycles. All but the bikes...on credit. I saw the writing on the wall as we slipped into the "average" American habit of living beyond our means. With a loan out on our house and some 5K on credit cards we abandoned this rollercoaster. We sold what we could, reaped the insane profit on our house, packed up & moved to South America. Now here, we realize how back in the U.S. we would have "collapsed" as many have now. Down here there is no rampant 'consumer' driven economy....we all live within our means, cars are repaired time and again rather than being replaced...Regulations are virtually non-existant allowing individuals to create businesses' at will. At present my brother-in-law has a pig-farm out of town & we have a sign at our house advertizing his wares. State side even this sign would run you a-foul of "regulations". Even now in the states the EPA has conjured up more regulations on emissions for lawnmowers, boats and all small engines.......absolute stupidity in these times. What do you own? Free and clear...if your list is short, that is what you will be left with. Consider all things on credit are not yours and those that you have lent from want them back. Acquire these things free & clear & you will be subserviant to no one.
JROBI27102002Message #163 - 02/05/09 06:25 PMBGA444 YOU ARE CORRECT JIMMY CARTER WAS HANDED A ECONOMY THAT WAS A MESS; THINK ABOUT HIS PREDECESSOR AND THE THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING NIXON AND FORD, AMERICA THOUGHT THE GOVERNMENT WAS CORRUPT TO SAY THE LEAST, UNEMPLOYMENT, THE END OF VIETNAM, NO DRAFT MAN I COULD GO ON FOREVER.
Ode2BIrishMessage #164 - 02/05/09 06:37 PMMad Mom.... Here's an idea....buy a gun...stock up on non-perishable goods and construct a bunker in your back yard.....The enemy has arrived and Uncle Sam is his name!
SmackmanMessage #165 - 02/05/09 06:38 PMAbout Mark to market - this one is easy - if you don't mark to what the free market says something is worth, exactly *what* are you going to mark it to? Bottom line: A Wish. I keep hearing that we do away with Mark to market but I never hear what we'll be replacing it with. Now you, if you were wondering...know. Once the dollar busts because the Feds have run the debt up too high, will we try the same tactic with the dollar? I think we'll get a chance to see how that flies. As for the Amero talk and the one world currency talk - Please give me back the old one world currency - Gold. Mr. Buffet has 90 million oz. of silver. They know the truth about why we got in this mess. That's why they took on Mr. Greenspan as Fed chair.. Read his Essay "Gold and Economic Freedom" it's on the web - you could be reading it in ten seconds if you so wished. Then ask yourself how someone who said such hostile things got his position and maybe you'll come to the same conclusion it took me 6 weeks to realize: They know he's right. See? - The planners know the truth - they just don't like the fact that objective reality doesn't serve the masses just the way they wish. So they vasillate (kinda like vasaline) in indecision - A kind of pragmatism if you will... making sure they try to strike a healthy (!) balance between the real and their wishes... I can help them with their contradiction though. How the people 'do' is a correllary - not the primary first principle to be observed. The primary... The People who wrote the constitution said it well enough...including the part about Gold and silver.
THE JAYCEMessage #166 - 02/05/09 06:38 PMALL US AMERICANS ARE GREEDY THATS WHY WE ARE ALL FALLING TOGETHER OTHERWISE THIS NIGHTMARE WOULD BE LIMITED TO JUST CERTAIN SECTORS, NOT THE WHOLE COUNTRY . BLAME NO ONE BUT YOUR SELF BECAUSE LIKE ME AND EVERY OTHER AMERICAN OUT THERE YOUR PART OF THE BIG GREEDY SCHEME OF THINGS THAT LED TO OUR COUNTRYS SOON TO BE COLLAPSE. HOPE OUR MOMS AND POPS CAN MAKE ROOM FOR ALL THERE GREEDY 20'S 30'S AND 40 SOMTHING YEAR OLD KIDS, BECAUSE AFTER OUR FORCLOSURES AND JOB LOSSES WHERE GONNA NEED A PLACE TO STAY.
mdiwMessage #167 - 02/05/09 06:40 PMThe idea of sending all of our manufacturing jobs overseas (originally Mexico)started in the 70's with the maquiadora plants on the Texas Border. Companies got the bright idea that if they could outsource more jobs they could improve their bottom line, and they did. We got sold the bill of goods in the early 80's to buy into the markets via 401k retirement plans to unburden the company of providing a pension for loyal service to the company, once again improving the companies bottom line. As our greed increased seeing the run up in the market we bought more heavily in, with the govt. assitance of the 401k, 401k Roth at pre tax and post tax respectively. Now not unlike the last depression millions have lost their life savings in The stock market. Had the average joe had his money in the market last time the crash would have been deeper. Last time the money was in the bank, and as the market crashed people ran to the bank to get their monies. This time the money was in the market in the form of retirement funds invested. People have been induced to pull out value from their homes and INVEST in something that it not the tamed beast they told us it is. Lets not forget they advised us to take out a 30 yr mortgage to purchase a new vehicle, so now they have financed for 30 yrs an item most people wont drive for 10 yrs, what a bunch of believing buffoons some people have become. Here is the scary thing most haven't considered yet. When we established those pre tax 401k's the govt. set laws to FORCE us to take out the money starting at age 70, so that they could get the taxes owed on money earned. Folks, the first 401k's were started in the very late 70's early 80's and the time of forced retrieval from the markets of that money is upon us. When the elderly start pulling out their investment at a loss in the next couple of years a run on the market to remove funds Shall ensue. The crash we are seeing now is only the beginning. Why else did you think GW wanted us to use half of our supposedly secure retirement (SSI) to shore up the markets just a few years ago. The Feds Know What Is Coming and they are looking for anyway to get mom and pop to cover the upcoming losses of the Fat Cats. "There is nothing to fear but fear itself" And of course our elected officials running in fear of the mess they have made of our country.
singledad1234Message #168 - 02/05/09 06:44 PMIt didnt have to be this way but I am glad that its happening free market is just another word for whats good for me is all i care about. the rich have sucked off the public trough for years and sat on their asses pretending they work. you have a couple working at gm that bring home over a hundred grand a year and boo hoo now cause they are losing it I raised four children alone as a man for fourteen years on 14000 a year and who gave a crap? three girls and one son since they were seven four two and three days old. we have never had a vacation and we dont spend a dime on christmas. I have wood ahead for eight years and that was by working my ass off. I would love to see the rich lose their power grid and see how fast all of a sudden their is people at my door saying, mr lazy man that has not worked in the last fourteen years ( thats what they think) can we share you wood stove and have heat for our family too please mr lazy man i am so sick and tired of judgment and jury coming from the rich elite. government bailouts went to bonuses? I cant wait for the riots to start I hope all hell breaks lose I already know that millions will be homeless and if you think there is not going to be another depression all i can say to you is ITS ALREADY HERE I am going to lose my family I cant pay my rent I will be on the streets within six months and all this teaches me is what I already KNOW NO ONE GIVES A SHIT no one cares about anyone else but themselves I can tell you right now anyone with money that reads this wont even think about giving some to us that are hurting I welcome the depression and I hope like hell that it starts raining millionaires in wall street very very soon you worshipped money and money has LET YOU DOWN Jesus is god he is coming back and he who says in his heart there is no god is a fool. you want to prove us wrong / send us some dam money and help us a single parent family in ontario [ mailto:Integrity@cyg.net] Integrity@cyg.net
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:38:39 GMT -5
SmackmanMessage #169 - 02/05/09 06:44 PMBefore you draw to many equations back to Jimmy and Nixon's time - don't forget. The Financial system wasn't destroyed, the credit markets weren't seized up, Houses weren't overvalued to the factor they are, The government wasn't insolvent, ETC.
winterparkMessage #170 - 02/05/09 06:48 PMHow could I, someone without much education in economics, see this coming 3-4 years ago? I love 4444's simple break down on how money has been stripped from this country. He left one thing out; not only is money leaving the country, but it is being horded by individuals. Wealth distribution is severely polar, and without an immediate fix (which I have no clue on how), we are headed for depression...and much much worse. If our money was leaving the country and being well dispersed among individuals then perhaps consumption would increase faster overseas and we wouldn't have this mess. It may be time to implement true Communism...okay hang me now twits. So, there is my take on what the problem is, wealth distribution, now does anyone now how to fix it?
THE JAYCEMessage #171 - 02/05/09 06:53 PM(Winter park) There is no fix, how many people do you know that share there wealth, none i suppose they just look to gain more if anything. Now government are the same way just on a much bigger scale. Wealth distrabution is limited to oprah winfery and thats just a way to hide her actual earnings, i would say everyone is the same ------GREEDY--------
winterparkMessage #172 - 02/05/09 07:02 PMSo we're the problem? lol true...that's why we need to force it upon people...sad but true. Companies should be forced to profit share within the company. Pay would still be sliced up based on performance, and skill. Common...should a chemical engineer in a company make less than the execs/people coming up with ways to make their pockets fatter?
SmackmanMessage #173 - 02/05/09 07:03 PMnull
singledad1234Message #174 - 02/05/09 07:10 PMAmen Amen if we would go to austrian economics this would be stopped RON PAUL HAS TOLD THEM FOR THREE YEARS THIS was going to happen they wouldnt listen cause they wanted it to happen they planned it to happen they want to wipe out the millionaires german concentration camps cant happen here REALLY? WHY DO WE HAVE OVER 800 FEMA CAMPS WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SHIT THE BILDERBURGS RUN EVERYTHING AND UNTIL WE ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR TRUTH NOTHING WILL CHANGE WE DESERVE THE WORLD AND THE LEADERS WE ARE GETTING
FunnybonzeMessage #175 - 02/05/09 07:14 PMYeah! Stock up on peanut-butter, and then if the government doesn't kill you, the peanuts will! 
THE JAYCEMessage #176 - 02/05/09 07:15 PM(WINTERPARK) SAD AS IT IS , YOU NAILED IT, PEOPLE HAVE TO BE FORCED TO DO SOMTHING. WHILE PROFIT SHARING I FEEL SHOULD BE A PART OF EVERY COMPANY IT WOULD REQUIRE THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY TO BASICALLY DIP INTO HIS PROFITS, NOT GONNA HAPPEN. THERES WHAT I LIKE TO CALL THE HUMAN FACTOR, NO ONE IS GOING TO GIVE THIER NEIGHBOR HALF OWNER SHIP OF THERE HOUSE FOR MOWING THERE LAWN ONCE A WEEK, THEY MIGHT FLIP EM A 20.00 BILL AND SAY JOB WELL DONE. SAME CONCEPT APPLIES TO BUSINESS, I'LL PAY YOU TO HELP BUT IT'S MY BUSINESS AND MY PROFITS.
DifaniMessage #177 - 02/05/09 07:15 PMAs I am over 66 I sure heard the stories of the 1930s growing up in Southern California. My father and his sister kept their jobs and helped their parents through very difficult years. On their honeymoon trip north to British Columbia in 1937 my parents drove through the Central Valley and saw the grapes of wrath firsthand. Now, over 70 years later I see the cartoons of so called "Bushvilles" as in the "Hoovervilles" of 1932-33. Geez, maybe many of us will be living in "Obamavilles" by 2012 if the presidents' so called 'financial brains' cannot cope with this mess. There is a tent city just west of the Ontario airport where the poor wretches guzzle 40 oz malt liquor and count the airliners coming and going..."Man, I just counted the first FedEx jumbo today..."
Micaiah2007Message #178 - 02/05/09 07:16 PMNobama Depression is being forestalled by every means possible including throwing the toilet bowl at it....The cleansing (Depression) or the BUST of the systemic, worldwide credit/debit bubbles is needed...yet held back by 3 factors: 1. false hope, change, denial mentality 2. funny money 3. corrupt politicians/bureaucrats Ultimately, Depression will Win out. We are in the tail end of the 60 year Kondratieff long wave cycle...the Winter Season. The Almighty force of nature will not be denied.
Micaiah2007Message #179 - 02/05/09 07:19 PMDon't insult the peanut butter.
THE JAYCEMessage #180 - 02/05/09 07:19 PM( SMACKMAN) VERY WELL PUT!!!! YOU SUMMED IT UP FOR EVERYONE. YOU CAN GRIPE ALL YOU WANT BUT IN THE END THE LESSON WILL GET LEARNED.....NO MATTER HOW BAD IT HURTS
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:39:30 GMT -5
Micaiah2007Message #181 - 02/05/09 07:26 PMYes, this Depression has the feel of biblical, supernatural force behind it, don't it??? I say GOD wins in the end, not corrupt, sinful men, esp. the liberal demonrat kind. The idol-worshipping Nobamanation will go down fighting and screaming all the way....they feel they are the super handy men and can fix our systemic problem. NOPE. I have outlined several big mistakes the Nobama Ramas have made in the first 2 weeks of governance. Their thinking is flawed. Action based on their flawed thinking will cause U.S. harm and more serious problems than we already have.
LIFE IN THE USA IS GOODMessage #182 - 02/05/09 07:28 PMIF THEY WERE TO GIVE EVERY HOUSEHOLD 250,000.00 DOLLARS WE COULD SOLVE OUR OWN PROBLEMS. I WOULD PAY OFF MY MORTGAGE, MY TRUCK AND A SMALL BALANCE ON MY CREDIT CARD THEN I WOULD HAVE A EXTRA 1,000.00 PER MONTH TO SPEND AT THE STORES THAT ARE CLOSING. IT WOULD BE A BETTER IDEA THEN LETTING THE DING DONGS IN WASHINGTON GIVE IT TO COMPANIES THAT WOULD WASTE IT ON THEMSELVES AND TO SPEND IT OVER SEAS
Micaiah2007Message #183 - 02/05/09 07:33 PMGo tell it to the flawed thinking Nobama. He was the attorney for ACORN, involved in voter fraud and in participating in subprime lending by having undue pressure placed on lenders to make loans to ppl who can't ever qualify for prudent underwritten loans. For undue pressure on FNM/FRE, and the clinton's CRA mandate that also placed inappropriate pressure to make weak, marginal, and downright stupid loans to unqualified entities. Some loans should not have been made at all and now such loans should be foreclosed and written off, not postponed...not modified, not restructured (not possible), not refinanced (not possible either)....debt forgiven (not realistic).
Dave987654321Message #184 - 02/05/09 07:34 PMWe are most certainly headed into a deep depression with the present government policies. Instead of giving money to the rich cats that are hurting because of the lower consumer spending, the government should be giving money to the consumers. That way, the consumers will spend more. The stores will make more money, the consumers will put more money into the banks, and the corporations will make more money by selling more of their products. Then all the people will pay more taxes, the GDP will improve, and the national debt will be reduced. I see no change in the government money policies coming soon, or in the future. We are heading into a deep deep deep depression, and with no way to stop it!
Steve 2535Message #185 - 02/05/09 07:37 PMOne more time: We had the BOOM. Now we are going to have the BUST. If it has happened in the past, it can happen in the future too. The future is now.
SeapirateMessage #186 - 02/05/09 07:45 PMThere is a lot of good insight and observation here from people more connected and intelligent than me in these affairs. I appreciate the posts and the the thought provoking text. Keep it up.
fools_goldMessage #187 - 02/05/09 07:45 PMBottom line...GREED across the board has put us in this situation. Bush's babes and the like just couldn't aquire enough wealth and turned a blind eye to every corrupt action perpetuated during his 8 yr. watch. Obama has been dealt the losing hand from the prior administration and no amount of bluffing will win. As a consuming public, we are like pacman devouring every new gadget and service that graces the marketplace. People bought homes they couldn't afford, lived beyond their means for years and now it's time to pay the piper. I often wonder where all occupents of these forclosed homes go? It's a wake up call and I believe we are headed for a serious Depression soon. The economy is in a death spiral and only rock bottom will be the end goal. game over.
FunnybonzeMessage #188 - 02/05/09 07:47 PMThis depression will be much, much worse. Population growth is much larger and therefore, many more problems and hungry, homeless people to feed and tent! Band-aiding the problem only delays the inevitable!
stevejanmanMessage #189 - 02/05/09 07:48 PMThe other day I heard Lou Dobbs go ballistic on IMUS. The bottom line of his thinking, as I understand it, is that we need to have more meetings. Nobody wants anybody to jump into something without considering possible options. The problem here, as everyone knows, is that time is running out, the window is closing. So, what if we approved the sum and had all those "meetings" afterward. Everyone has ideas. Everyone should agree that those ideas will be considered once the money is a go. Does this congress want to be remembered as the one that destroyed the US economy? I don't think so. Nobel Prize winner Nils Bohr, the man who "invented" quantum physics and became a key member of the team at Los Alamos in 1943-1945, was once asked for his definition of a genius. He said, "A person who makes all possible mistakes in the shortest period of time." We could use of those people right now.
santofdonMessage #190 - 02/05/09 07:53 PMagree with your idea of flushing our the corruption - - however, that takes honesty and brains and apparently we have none of that in our midst. Can't find anyone to run government because they haven't paid their taxes - - would any of us have ever known if they were not tapped to lead? I highly doubt that. BUT just let one of the hardworking middle class forget to dot their i's or cross their t's or claim their part time income and you have created a criminal. It's sick. I'm beginning to think there is no hope. Or - - does hope lie in the person who wants and can help us in this situation but cannot run for political office because they don't have the millions to win an election and put their ideas into practice...somehow we have begin to rethink our democracy
Maximum_HarryMessage #191 - 02/05/09 07:53 PMHey Guys, We are on the verge of a depression but not quite there yet. Maybe 60% of the way there. When we go into a full scale depression, you will have food riots in every city in every state all over the country every day. And the news media will have no choice but to cover it because the thousands of hungry, angry people of all races and cultures, will scare the hell out of all those who either got us into this or have under reported what is going on to keep the status quo going. I do know for a fact that tent cities are coming up all over the country and the news media is staying as far away from this as they can get. And it is not just in big cities. In rural areas and outside of city limits, huge tent cities are coming up and the people there are in fear of the authorities finding a reason to run them off so they are trying to stay secret. And the authorities would run them off because tent cities are an embarrassment to all the politicians and local money men. Right now, only the BBC and the european news media are reporting on the tent cities coming up all over america. The last time I posted a comment about this, various columnists on this site came back with articles that listed all these reasons why we weren't in a depression but "might be in a recession". Duh? Every day americans have every day jobs. We don't make a living feeding crap cover up stories to a hurting, angry population. We were raised to believe that if you play by the rules and do the right thing and work hard, that everything else will work itself out. Because of all the corruption and greed, people are losing their retirements, nest eggs, homes and jobs. You lose credibility when you say that we should not take punitive measures against those who have gotten bailout money by putting caps on their salaries. These guys are crooks and they are getting off easy. I would do more time in jail for stealing $50 that they will do for stealing millions and billions. If we end up with food riots all over the country, then the only way to control it at that point is to impose martial law all over the country. Those are the beginnings of a police state. The government is terrified of this scenario and will do ANYTHING to keep this situation from happening. If this means that the government has to own and operate every single bank, automaker, etc., and that afterwards everybody receives their paycheck from the government, then that is what will happen. I am curious as to what the end effect will be of just printing more money and sending it out to whoever needs it. Unfortunately, right now, to do nothing is a far worse choice.
FunnybonzeMessage #192 - 02/05/09 07:54 PMIt doesn't make sense to bail out Auto industries that can't sell their existing merchandise. Make more you can't sell? That's a real smart thing to do! The money needs to be spent and given to those that can redesign the engines of automobiles that can get you up to 110 mpg. The government is only doing this so they can get the latest, newer cars for FREE at the cost of the tax-payers. REVOLUTION people! Time for real CHANGE in America, and it's time to clean house (government)!
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:40:22 GMT -5
Citizen57Message #193 - 02/05/09 08:08 PMHey you Richard_Arg, your country (Argentina) is not precisely a role model for the world to see. If you live free & clear it's because you choose to do so like many in here. I have friends down there and they're up their nostrils in debt. Besides don't forget that your country default its debt, went into a financial crash (remember "the corralito") and still on very shaky ground like the rest of Latin America. When we sneeze, you guys get pneumonia and when we get pneumonia, you're in artificial life support.
Maximum_HarryMessage #194 - 02/05/09 08:20 PMI have always kept lots of can goods around, various kinds of canned beans, beef stew, corn, canned tomatoes, and other high carb items that could almost be considered a main course if times got bad enough. Like I said before, the government will absorb all industry before it lets the country disintegrate into nationwide food riots, chaos and martial law. Still, it is a very good idea to try do keep a good stockpile of canned food that could last 6 months to a year if it neccessary. Bailing out the automakers does not mean continuing to back their design decisions on making inferior products. Bailing them out means taking them over and running them the right way. Not rocket science. Just like you or I manage our household expenses and check book. You and I get raises from doing a good job at work. Otherwise, we get reprimanded and then fired. The people in charge of the companies that are getting bailout money are getting profits, bonuses and golden parachute retirement packages for doing a lousy job at work. I'm glad the administration is coming down on them. I voted for Reagan twice, for the senior Bush once and then for Clinton twice, and against the Jr Bush twice, and this time I voted for Obama. And I am positive that this was the best choice for the times we are living in now.
VerymadeasheckMessage #196 - 02/05/09 08:28 PM"by immediately coordinating the injection of real financial adrenaline to banks, companies, households and local governments -- not just rhetoric and indiscriminate spending" And just what was the $700 billion in TARP, chopped liver? Oh, now I understand, it was to pay bonuses to greedy losers, to underwrite conventions and other "conversations" in the bordellos of Las Vegas, and to buy corporate jets so as not to be forced to associate with, uggh, taxpayers. Go to the country club instead, no taxpayers there, their taxes have all been cut. The root problem here is greed and selfishness. Starts on Wall Street, continues on the Republican side of Congress and continues to local businesses and boardrooms. It's all about what I can get for me, and the hell with you.
Crying TreeMessage #197 - 02/05/09 08:29 PMfools_gold........I lived deep in the woods. The northwest Olympic forest of Washington. 70 miles to the Costco one way. The wind blew harder than Wyoming, the rain came down every day in buckets worst than Vietnam's monsoons. The power was out weeks at a time. Truck loads of broken branches and mold a problem. No fire place and your a goner. Five cords of wood to make it to March or you will be sorry. Gas prices through the roof and a local grocery store that was one step up from robbery. I even lived in the rocky mountains where over yonder meant 50-60 miles and you bet after every sentence. As fall as solar heating goes it started bank in the 1930's with coils around swimming pools that heated in the sun and discharged into the pool. No Thanks to Country. I like Super Wal Mart 4 minutes away open 24hrs & everything else including Costco 7 minutes max.
origRLsecMessage #198 - 02/05/09 08:31 PMI disagree neohguy, we shouldn't be working on finding ways to encourage manufacturing to keep the jobs here. We should be punishing them for taking them away in the first place. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you take away an American's job they won't have the money to purchase things you are now manufacturing out of country and shipping here. We are now (finally) to the point where companies are finding this basic fact out. I don't care how much cheaper Wal-Mart can sell TVs from China, if I don't have a job that pays me more than it takes to feed, clothe, and shelter my children I'm not buying what they're selling. When you can find a Toyota with more American content than a Ford Mustang today, well there's something wrong with those bumper stickers that say "Lose your job yet? Keep driving foreign" And don't give me that crap that they can't possibly figure out just how much of a car(or other product) is "American" or "foreign" manufactured. I'm back in college to get another degree, the things that are going on in computer technologies today would simply astound you. All products not 100% manufactured right here in the U.S. should have a label with how much foreign content there is in it, if for no other reason than to educate consumers, and to assign fair tariffs on those products. I also think that we need a more European way of thinking when it comes to what happens when a company moves a plant overseas. Some countries such as Sweden, Norway etc. have actual laws governing for instance: a. a six month 'cushion' before a plant can be closed. b. the company must pay for rehab style job training or other continuing education. c. continuation of medical, social etc benefits for up to two years for former employees. (meaning they must continue to pay unemployment benefits, medical insurance, as well as a type of 'vacation or sick pay' for workers who are on disability at the time of closing) Not to mention the increased tariffs on formerly 'In Country' now 'imported' products. These things alone would go a long way toward easing the often soul wrenching burdens of the displaced worker, not to mention making a company think more than twice about just how much benefits would be reaped by moving.
jesse78Message #199 - 02/05/09 08:35 PMWant the economy to really take off? Want the public to start buying? Lower the cost of gas to 32 cents a gallon. Do the same with diesel fuel for the big rigs. Make sure everyone can count on that price for at least five years. Produce cars that get at least 40 mpg. Use all that money in the current stimulus package to subsidize the cost of gas and diesel. Let the housing market find its own level. Property values are too high as it is. Lower the taxes on property - let local governments get honest and stop stealing tax payer money. The voters will spend the money they save on fuel/heating and tax costs. The economy will recover quickly.
fools_goldMessage #201 - 02/05/09 08:46 PMHere's a way to get money back into the pockets of the working class. Ya think the cable and cell phone companies aren't raking it in? Presently, fuel is now cheaper for electric power plants. If major providers of of what america runs on reduced their enormous profits and gave back a little, that in its self would be help. Look at you cell phone bill, look at your cable bill, look at the fuel charge on your electric bill. Tell me they couldn't "do the right thing" and help out people struggling right now to survive.
StutzBearcatMessage #202 - 02/05/09 08:55 PMThe writer got it write when he said " ut governments don't know which steps work because economic theory breaks down at the level of human psychology." It is this "human psychology" factor that has me the most distressed over the monolithic (at least in the House) Republican response. The very fact that the minority political party won't get behind the bailout dramatically increases the likelihood our society's psychological response will be less positive than needed to turnaround the slump before we head into a depression. Think of all those wealthy Republican voters and wanna be wealthy Republican voters (the majority of the group) blindly listening to the nay saying rhetoric and believing the "Democratic" bailout is all wrong. What we really need is a responsible minority party that is willing to compromise and than whole-heartedly endorse a plan. But I don't expect this leopard to change its spots. Since Reagan, the Republican party has been more interested in power and keeping power at any cost (for personal gain?) than in governing for the benefit of all of society. So they'll play their partisan games (how else do you explain not a single house vote in favor of the plan) so Republican leadership can blame a fiasco on the majority party rather than do what's right.
Jim TT
Message #203 - 02/05/09 09:01 PM
You're an Idiot mallardplace! Obama is a Communist! His only goal is to redistribute the wealth by taking from the rich who pay the largest portion of the taxes to the poor who pay no taxes at all!
That's called welfare and Income Redistribution is nothing more than Communism which this country fought and shed Blood against for over 50 years!
Barney, have you noticed the distribution of wealth and income has increasingly been going to the top 5% and above for 25 years? How do you explain that? JIM
Bobfm
Message #204 - 02/05/09 09:17 PM
When most of the products sold in the US come from overseas, they benefit the most. There needs to be tax incentives to bring back manufacturing here to the US and stop paying DOT HEADS for the tech support when Americans can do those jobs. Even most collections agencys are overseas.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:41:13 GMT -5
GregorySonMessage #205 - 02/05/09 09:19 PMIn the transportation equipment industry we are showing some hope of a pickup since mid-January. We will generally lead the economy into recession by 4 - 6 months (which we did) and we will lead the economy out.
Ode2BIrishMessage #206 - 02/05/09 09:23 PM [ moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/profile.asp?ForumID=18&UserID=9005805] Dave987654321 Message #184 - 02/05/09 02:34 PM We are most certainly headed into a deep depression with the present government policies. Instead of giving money to the rich cats that are hurting because of the lower consumer spending, the government should be giving money to the consumers. That way, the consumers will spend more. The stores will make more money, the consumers will put more money into the banks, and the corporations will make more money by selling more of their products. Then all the people will pay more taxes, the GDP will improve, and the national debt will be reduced. I see no change in the government money policies coming soon, or in the future. We are heading into a deep deep deep depression, and with no way to stop it! Uhhh....I can think of one way......quit looking for a hand out.....Why should the govt be bailing out anyone.....
Burning ManMessage #207 - 02/05/09 09:27 PMThere's no catch or hidden agenda here. If you want to have this economic mess explained to you clearly and without any political spin, check out Chrismartenson.com and watch "The Crash Course" The material is sobering and if it should make you pause and ask what the heck our elected officials are doing to us?
Memphis DudeMessage #208 - 02/05/09 09:27 PMDOOM and GLOOM media 24/7. Now that's Depressing!
mrshareMessage #209 - 02/05/09 09:27 PMThe Big Bad Bank needs to buy about 2 trillion worth of crap off the balance sheets of the banks. Hopefully the price paid will be a balance between creating the liquidity needed and the possibility of the government selling the assets for a small profit/loss down the road. This, in my opinion, is the only way to flush out the clog in the system. But it needs to happen NOW or all bets are off and the momentum toward depression my become unstoppable.
BGA4444Message #210 - 02/05/09 09:29 PMHey Jim you are right the last time the top 5% of Americans held the % of wealth they hold today was- Yes you guessed it 1929. They just wanted to hold on to it then and now and not pay fair wages. The government had to step in back then with jobs and they will have to do the same today.
lovdabeerMessage #211 - 02/05/09 09:48 PMElizabeth I agree with you, but I think you should move now while a few jobs still exist. What is going to happen will happen its not in our control anyway
Dr FixitMessage #212 - 02/05/09 09:51 PMI was born during the last depression and even though my little brain could not comprehend the severity at the time, my parents and grandparents never let me forget the hardships we suffered. My folks had to burn corn in their furnace, as it was cheaper than coal. Hand me down cloths and shoes were a god send. Mom and Dad each picked corn by hand for 50 cents a day and between them made enough to feed us. I could go on and on about the hardships we faced back then, but how many of you could comprehend what it was like. Some are feeling the effects of our falling economy and many more will follow, but we have a long way to go before we really know what a depression is.. If we let all of the so called experts and media people keep telling us how bad it is, or going to be, than we will surely fail. Try to keep a positive outlook each day and tell our government of the people and for the people to get off their butts and do the job they were elected to do. Dr Fixit
lovdabeerMessage #213 - 02/05/09 09:51 PMGregoryson I appreciate your optimism but its not going to happen
craig555Message #214 - 02/05/09 10:07 PMwhy don't we try to fix the tax system with it's 68,000 pages of tax law and legal speak all the lobbyists ,tax lawyers, politicians etc. plug loop holes stop tax havens don't tax business, only people ,when ever a person gets a benefit or compensation they pay tax on it. have a graduated tax system based on the standard of living ,there comes a point where a person's life will not improve with more money. have the graduated tax start to climb from this point so that someone with three houses two jets etc. will pay dearly
nuclearMessage #215 - 02/05/09 10:28 PM The bats flew over the cuckoo's nest, capitol hill, and the republicans came out and said we have a better plan, devoid of all pork. Republicans have been under a dark cloud. George and Darth Vader, throw backs from Reagan and Nixon, their ideas squashed, waited until the savior Obama, rescued them from the bowels of hell with their plan to rescue us and the world from depression. Talk is cheap! Show me the plan! Show me the money! During a depression do we really need 100 senators? Do we need 435 members of the house? Since they have failed us like wall street and banks, they too should take a hit. How about one senator and two house members from each state. Also give up retired pay until they serve 20 years like the military. They think business as usual, take our tax dollars for their pet projects to get kickbacks for their re-election. Listen to those naysayers who have given themselves good paying jobs with your taxes and ask what are they ready to sacrifice? They could start with work for us and stop the diarrhea of the mouth.
nuclearMessage #216 - 02/05/09 10:36 PMI remember those depression days as well but today it is a depression when you have lost your job, your home and women can't find a shelter or school for their homeless children.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:42:05 GMT -5
savemore
Message #217 - 02/05/09 10:46 PM
amen brother anen
GreyG
Message #218 - 02/05/09 10:54 PM
Economics the dismal science and in a and nevermore than in a bearish economy like we have now. Yes we are in a bad fix like we have not seen since 1929 and it looks to become worse as time passes as the Republican Party has jet to reject the financial philosophizes and policy that brought us this situation and for the second time in 100 years.
History indicates that the recovery from the first Great Depression began with massive governmental spending by FDR. In about 1936-37 he returned to some of the more traditional fiscal policies only to see the economy spiral downward again. Then WWII occurred and governmental spending exploded unlike anything FDR envisioned. With the massive financial transfusion, the economy sprang to life to meet the foreign challenge with the people behind it.
By the 1970's and the 'guns and butter" policies of LBJ and the Democrats (Viet Nam - the war that should never have been) the economy overheated and by the time of Ronald Regan it had become moribund. President Regan's solution was to begin the process of removing all governmental controls over the economy - a process continued until corporate greed and banking ineptitude soundly based in unrestrained lassie-fare capitalism again brought us to the brink of fiscal disaster as it had in 1920. The circle is closed once more.
We begin the cycle anew and we have much to learn from the mistakes of the old if we but read history. Massive spending is the only solution we know that has worked in the past. WWII worked from us as the US became the 'arsenal of democracy" for Europe and money flowed into US banks to pay for the war. Today, the cash flow goes the other way - foreign wars will not aide us to get out of this mess.
Still, if we have to spend massive amounts of money (and these are nightmare figures as this is 2009 not 1932) to get the economy moving, let it be in domestic spending (investments) so we have something to show for the dollars other than bodies and shell casings. Let the money be used to aid families whose breadwinner lost their job and who will spend the money for food and shelter. Spend the money on domestic projects that rebuild infrastructure (yup, the term is sexy now) so that when the economy is again moving we have a new industrial nation - I am thinking of a self-inflicted Marshal plan for the US. We rebuilt Europe and Japan; let us rebuild ourselves and give us the money to do it.
I hear cries about spending for social programs the Republicans love to hate and yet they will, too, aid in the recovery. Condums are an issue. Do you know how much unwanted babies cost this country either in abortions (medical costs) or in the feeding and education an expanding population? Moral shortsightedness has doomed many a positive project. And this is but one example. Spend the money an much needed social programs and keep your religion at home. The economy will recover faster if you do.
We know what has happened recently with our economy. We know the philosophies that got us here - we continue to hear them from the Republicans. Our choice if we are to avoid or shorten the Depression is to act differently than in the past - it our only hope. Will everything we do work? Most likely not, but it is the only hope in town at the moment, and it is better than spinning one's wheel doing the old things over and over.
Barney L. Cornett
Message #219 - 02/05/09 10:54 PM
Yeah Jim TT, I've noticed! Obama belongs to that 5%! It's called a "Plutocracy", a Government for the "Rich", by the "Rich", and of the "Rich"! Josef Stalin was a "Plutocrat" as well as a "Communist"!
chrisvb
Message #220 - 02/05/09 11:21 PM
as some people stated , the last depression was solved by MASSIVE spending on W.W. 2 arms. While "creating" a war is not an option , it is very likely that somewhere in the world a small time dictator will do that for us. The U.S. arms industry is still the most sophisticated in the world and perhaps there will be a spin-off that will lift the economy out of it's pit.
ReddGreen
Message #221 - 02/05/09 11:26 PM
No. "Depression" means "contraction of the money supply" and "contraction of the money supply" means "depression". People who should very well KNOW better throw that word around with gross misunderstanding.
Over the past 10-12 years or so, after some great bank deregulations, a tremendous amount of 'dirty' money came into the economy in the form of cash out refinancing, and flipping. People bought houses they knew very well they could not afford, convinced in many cases by crooked mortgage brokers, and mostly their own stupidity, that they could flip for %20 even if they were dipping into their savings to stay afloat.
For the life of me, I can't find the article any longer, but Greenspan did a study with the Fed in the early 2000's, that showed a very large amount of mortgage activity (I can't remember the exact number somethign like %50) was due to cash-out refinancing. I remember getting dozens of calls by brokers to refinance, when I told them I want to pay DOWN and not take cash out, they hung up!
That money is not coming back into the economy. Add to that, the grotesque over spending by every level of government, federal, state and local. And add to that a grotesque trade deficit. And add to that the absurd argument that its irresponsible to "Buy American"! And add on a very large number of businesses with cash have taken their money out of cash accounts, and money market funds, and moved them into zero interest short term treasuries due to fear of the awful people that have mismanaged our banking system.
No, there is no depression, and there won't be one. What is happening though, is our incompetent government have fallen over listening to the very same crooked fools that broke our banking system to begin with. They are allowing the Federal Reserve to print money and borrow at such absurd rates that we will see times with %25 inflation in the USA, when that money hits the fan.
And we will double the amount of money we're spending on interest on the federal debt, about half of which is held by foreigners. It will move from around 500 billion a year, to near a trillion. And that is forever, since the incompetent treasury and Federal Reserve never, ever retire any debt in any meaningful way.
What we've allowed the federal reserve to do is design a system to transfer wealth out of this country, and transfer it out at an exponentially increasing rate. Just look at the graphs of the national debt, and the money supply since 1972 when the gold window was closed.
No, it won't be a depression just yet. We will see %25 inflation, and a crash of the US Dollar, when the US defaults on interest payments. Long before that point, inflation will grow to zimbabwe like levels.
We owe it all to our, the US citizens and taxpaers, lack of interest in knowing who the hell is really running this country, and what they are doing with it. its surely not Americans, I don't know who it is.
Barney L. Cornett
Message #222 - 02/05/09 11:26 PM
I stand by what I said earlier! Obama is a Communist! His only goal is to Redistribute the Wealth by taking from the Rich who pay the largest portion of the taxes to give to the Middle Class and Poor who pay no taxes at all! I belong to the Middle Class and I've been Poor as well! I know what Welfare is and this country doesn't need it, and Income Redistribution is nothing more than Communism which this country fought and shed Blood against for over 50 years!
ReddGreen
Message #223 - 02/05/09 11:27 PM
building more debt wont fix anything this time
lovdabeer
Message #224 - 02/05/09 11:29 PM
Easier said than done, But they do need a kick in the u know what
Ode2BIrish
Message #225 - 02/05/09 11:32 PM
"I'M MAD AS HELL and I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!".....Join the MAH bandwagon and demand TERM LIMITS for all politicians.....
Also, write to President Obama and ask him why he didn't appoint Harry Markopolos as the new Chairman of the SEC, rather than Mary Schapiro.
ReddGreen
Message #226 - 02/05/09 11:35 PM
" I stand by what I said earlier! Obama is a Communist! His only goal is to Redistribute the Wealth by taking from the Rich who pay the largest portion of the taxes to give to the Middle Class and Poor who pay no taxes at all! I belong to the Middle Class and I've been Poor as well! I know what Welfare is and this country doesn't need it, and Income Redistribution is nothing more than Communism which this country fought and shed Blood against for over 50 years!"
Barney
Your comments are absurd. I really hope most Americans would learn to distinguish between news and talk show host babble. Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are not news, they don't have to tell the truth, and are only interested in ratings. When George W Bush handed out a trillion to the banks, did you bother to research who was getting the money? What about the Bush "stimulus" nonsense last year?
modbuilder812
Message #227 - 02/05/09 11:47 PM
Everyone needs to buy a gun, NOW! Protect what's yours and the hell with everyone else. (I have about 20, come and try to take my stuff)
Barney L. Cornett
Message #228 - 02/05/09 11:55 PM
Well Put Nuclear!!!
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:42:56 GMT -5
ReddGreenMessage #229 - 02/05/09 11:56 PMYou're an Idiot mallardplace! Obama is a Communist! His only goal is to redistribute the wealth by taking from the rich who pay the largest portion of the taxes to the poor who pay no taxes at all!
That's called welfare and Income Redistribution is nothing more than Communism which this country fought and shed Blood against for over 50 years!
Barney, have you noticed the distribution of wealth and income has increasingly been going to the top 5% and above for 25 years? How do you explain that? JIM Jim Im always amazed to see posts like Barneys, on various blogs. I have family, unfortunately, that sit glued to Rush Limbaugh and believe Ann Coulter's blathering too. I had hoped that uneducated people were more easily taken in, but its not true. A small group of the countries/worlds welathiest people have convinced those, mose of whom don't have a 'pot to piss in', that the US is moving wealth to the poor people! Its absurd. Every study shows wealth moving exponentially faster to the top 1% and top 0.05%. And everyone else has lost. Propaganda works. Most people don't really read, they just listen, and believe what they want to hear. They do no research. its hard and time consuming to do research,and verify what is truth and what is nonsense, but we have to do it. I only wish more people woudl get off their butts and do some real reading. Regards, Redd
bigheaddaveMessage #230 - 02/06/09 12:39 AMWe need to start heavily taxing the major companies that seek refuge and cover under a system that allows them to profit by outsourcing jobs to save a buck....there would be plenty of jobs available if corporations were not given the tax breaks unless a certain percentage of the work force was working out of the country where the entity was based... just imagine if a Bank of America was forced to employ in the U.S......just a thought, it seems to me that most of our problems began when I started picking up the phone for customer service and almost without fail got someone from oversees .......
lovdabeerMessage #231 - 02/06/09 12:39 AMRIP America, it was fun while it lasted. We should be thankful for what we enjoyed. The US benifitted from the outcome WWII, but now that has come to an end. Hold on to what you have and put all that living high on the hog out of your minds, as tough as it is we still have it better than most of the world. Money is a gift from God and should be used to help your fellow man , sadly this is a message that many Americans have ignored all these years and selfishness has brought us to this point in history, sorry it isn't going improve folks. You don't need those big houses. 2 cars, 1 boat and all that fancy furniture and all those toys for your children that are sitting in the closet collecting dust. We need to teach our children NOT to make the mistakes we have. Life is changing right before our eyes and soon we'll realize how little we really need to survive.
imnotagolferMessage #232 - 02/06/09 12:39 AMWe are paying the price for our collective stupidity. A republic, combined with capitalism, is the still the best system the world has ever know. Where it gets messed up is our government overstepping their bounds, and Americans being financially illiterate. The government is to blame for part of this problem by passing the Community Reinvestment Act, which essentially forced banks to lend to people who could not afford to get a loan under regular circumstances. Certainly bankers went way farther than they should have, and took reckless risks with financial instruments that were bogus. My attitude is, fine, you blew it, you can go out of business. An insolvent bank should close its doors, and the remains purchased by a healthy bank, and there are probably thousands of those left. Why should taxpayers have to recapitalize banks? Our 10 trillion debt will wreck this country; and that is because of government spending. We have to pay interest on that debt, to the tune of 500 billion per year. This is nuts. Government has to stop driving up our debt. Not enough Americans seem to truly understand how serious a problem our national debt is, and it will get worse with growth of Social Security, Medicare. There is no way we can afford to nationalize health insurance, but the Democrats want it. Just watch our debt skyrocket when that happens.
Barney L. CornettMessage #233 - 02/06/09 12:48 AM For your information ReddGreene, I think that Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are Outrageous Personality's and as far as Dubya's concerned, he Lost in 2000, Gore Won and that's a fact! I warned against voting for Dubya in 2004 because of the fact that he comes from a Family of "Plutocrat's"! What's absurd about my comments? Because I called Obama A Communist? Where do you get your news from, an Obama campaign spokesperson? I watch the same news as you and as you can tell I didn't vote for Obama and Yes, I do vote! Just because I don't worship at the alter of the cult of Obama gives you no reason to lump me in with those 2 Sad, Sack Pieces of Sh** Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter just like I wouldn't compare you to those 3 Screwballs Al Franken, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi! As much as I despise him, Dubya was handing out those trillions to the banks last year with the full help and permission of the Senate and the House Of Representatives of which both houses are controlled by the Democratic Party! What about the Bush "stimulus" nonsense last year? Do you mean the "Stimulus" nonsense that Obama and John McCain flew into Washington for during their campaign in september? Do you mean the "Stimulus" nonsense that Obama, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi Shamelessly and Cynically Exploited for Obama's campaign for President? I've seen posts here suggesting that the American People themselves are partially to blame for the economy or that it's all the President's fault or that "Gasp" the "Ghastly" Republicans are Obstructing the process! Anyone who doesn't drop to their knees before The Anointed One, His Holiness, the Obama is seen as an Obstructionist!
lovdabeerMessage #234 - 02/06/09 12:51 AMNor do we need cell phones for the whole family with $300 bills every month, remember when all we had was the phone in the kitchen, seems we did fine. We are such suckers for every new gadget that pops up. A brainwashed commercialized society that doesn't even know the real meaning of Christmas and Easter, what are teaching our kids anyway?
DAQMessage #235 - 02/06/09 01:12 AMThere is no classic definition of a depression other than a really bad recession. So just how bad does it have to get. Well I doubt we will see the kinds of 1930's scenarios. Our economy is too diversified, and we aren't going to see a run on the banks. However I do think it will get worse. I see Carter year numbers of 10% to 15% unemployment looming. Housing will undergo a further correction and will probably decline another 20%. I don't think the government program will do much to soften the blow because it didn't work in Japan, and it really didn't work under FDR. Indeed it probably prolonged the problem. The real issue is changing the psychology that's out there, and quite frankly I don't see a government spending bill or tax cut that's going to change that. One thing is for certain, prices are going to fall as the money supply shrinks. This might have a positive affect on the long term because things were too heated up. Housing was too expensive, and credit was too easy. It doesn't help when our politicians make it sound bad all the time. They need to be positive, and use the bully pulpit to change the psychology and not exacerbate the problem. So I would tell Obama to really cut taxes for business and corporations that produce things so that when the psychology does start to turn they will start hiring people. By the way pending sales of homes has gone up. That's a good sign. People are now starting to buy up the inventory. Once the housing inventory is bought up then things will start to balance out.
SamsaraMessage #236 - 02/06/09 01:17 AMTry to find a nice bridge to jump off of. We're doomed, unless the Islamic terrorists save us. If the 1930s were any indication, only another World War can save us from economic meltdown, and the Islamic terrorists are the best we've got to give us that World War.
Warm in SarasotaMessage #237 - 02/06/09 01:55 AMThe problem that happened to America is that a very large number of people, like the Wall Street thieves, figured out how to earn a living without working. They turned the American dream into the American nightmare. Didn't we all notice how many expensive cars and SUVs suddenly appeared on every highway. We should have known our future was doomed the day GM started selling a Cadillac Truck. I think we all can now have some understanding of why Osama Bin Laden crashed the planes into the World Trade Center buildings. It was to ultimately bring order out of the financial insanity that was permeating every wallet in the U.S. We were living for several years on money that didn't even exist, it was all bogus, just a lie. Millions of people took out 125% loans on their homes and then used the money to buy big Cadillac and Lincoln trucks and finance them for 30 years. That kind of behavior deserves a paddling and it started on 9/11. If you are in a job right now where you work all day on a computer and don't produce anything but keystroke noise, you are part of the enormous problem. Get up, get out and build something, buy something, help somebody and maybe, just maybe, the paddling won't hurt so bad.
moonwellMessage #238 - 02/06/09 02:00 AMGive me a break -- the "recession" such as it is, is localized by both geography and industry. The malls are full, the catalogs keep coming, and the Fed is cranking out money six ways. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. (What a great line!)
hogdogmanMessage #239 - 02/06/09 02:26 AM Hogdogman Not a depression for sure. Washington needs its 10 %. All problems will go away when the 920 Bln package is approved by both house and senate. A'int gonna be no 800 Bln without the 100 Bln pork.
Maximum_HarryMessage #240 - 02/06/09 02:55 AMHey Guys, Obama is not a communist. Communism requires a dictator over the masses (us). And any leader that makes a private company a government owned company is not a communist. England has socialized medicine as do the countries in Scandinavia. And they are not communist. Obama is doing exactly what should be done right now. The country and the world have been raped from behind dry by the previous administration. We all need to support Obama as much as we possibly can. I voted republican during the Reagan years and since Clinton, I have been voting democrat. What's happening now is VERY, VERY SERIOUS!!! If your grandparents thought the great depression was bad, then what is coming is going to be much, much worse. What has already been done would have corrected the first great depression but it has not made a dent in what's going on now. What Obama is doing now takes allot of guts. Look at all the opposition he is running into. When he says that the people have given him a mandate to make changes, he is right. What got us into this mess is greed and corruption. Saying it was incompetence is letting these crooks off easy. Obama is taking punitive measures against these people. Like I said, what he is doing requires major guts. I support him completely. We all need to.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:43:48 GMT -5
applejack123Message #241 - 02/06/09 03:14 AMstart doing things to help others. go the extra mile to help out. Maybe when its your turn someone will help you. The greatest expense at any company is the pay to the worker. How much could we accomplish by volunteering to help each other out. I know, you'll run into the takers, but help people in your group who are also willing to help. I swear this works..t
FunnybonzeMessage #242 - 02/06/09 03:31 AM
UnknownIAMessage #243 - 02/06/09 03:43 AMThe last everyone started pulling all of their money out, we got the depression, if you remember your history correctly. So doing that is the worst thing to do. If you want to cause another depression, then freak out and pull everything out of everywhere you have money. I have gone through many economic classes, and all of them say pulling your money out is the worst thing to do, that's what will cause the crash.
CaterpillarmanMessage #244 - 02/06/09 04:04 AMRe-establishing our manufacturing base Neohguy? are you nuts?? The united states is currently destroying our manufacturing base as we speak. The destructive trade policies and open-border tolerance that continues to be allowed here are sickening. Our politicians know it, and big business-special interests will lust for cheap labor. We are cutting our own throats. It's a snowball rolling down a hill. Nothing is made in the USA anymore. and that's intentional. The more we shop at Wal-Mart, and anywhere- for that matter. The more jobs we loose. the more jobs we lose, the more poor the american people get, the more poor we become, the more we shop at Wal-Mart. on and on and on. This will continue till we are all happily working for $5 per hour and no health care benefits... and proud of it. There is no plan to bring America back.. The plan for years has been to bring America down to the the world standard of poor, powerless, and depending on government assistance to live everyday life. All of these bail-out's and Stimulus idea's on the table are only delaying the pain. A country with no manufacturing is no country at all.
Red in TexasMessage #245 - 02/06/09 04:32 AMYou guys/gals are really full of good news. You should be on CNN, Foxnews, or better yet Bloomberg. There is a fix to this but 90% of americans will not like it.
CaterpillarmanMessage #246 - 02/06/09 04:40 AMSadly, right now there is little good news. I don't pay too much attention to the slanted media such as CNN or FOX Noise. They only report after-the-fact issues. After the ship crashes into the Iceberg.. Then it becomes an "Emergency" "Act now" "Quick, Be freighted" type deal. CNBC is pretty good. The stock tickers aren't partial to anything.
Stay PutMessage #247 - 02/06/09 04:42 AMI have gone through many economic classes, and all of them say pulling your money out is the worst thing to do, that's what will cause the crash.
Unknown, I do hope and pray that there are many, many people who think just like you, because at least there will be enough there when I pull all of mine out. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
DAN1956Message #248 - 02/06/09 05:45 AMI agree with Senator McCain in that the bail out bill is grossly too large and that it is not well focused on the actual problem areas. I believe that we are on the edge of a World Depression and that if the rest of the world keeps declining so will we no matter what we do here. The people that want fast action in my opinion are just thieves looking to grab as much money they can in the mad rush panic. The Government wants to pass out money but does not want to manage and account for it as proven by thieves giving out tax payer money for so called bonuses. Now is not the time to point fingers is a term I have heard before, I say now is not only the time to point and prosecute but to also fire the lazy and apathetic people who have said now is not the time to point fingers. This Crisis may be like having the Flu or a Cold and that we may just have to let it run its course, I am afraid the present bail out plan will run us out of resources and we will be left with nothing to even set up soup kitchens or bread lines.
rosevilleMessage #249 - 02/06/09 06:56 AMLet's analyse and see what's causing recession/depression around the world. I lot of people including governments around the world fail to see that the root cause of all this is a loss of industries, that is, industries going overseas, mainly to China. This has been good for many countries and good for the consumer because people could buy things cheaper. Well, all this is good until the BALANCE is tipped. That is, more people unemployed then employed, excluding government jobs. This is where we are heading, you can see it around the world, it's an imbalance of industries flocking to China and similar asian coutries. It's all money driven, each year more and more, when is somebody going the learn? The fix to all this is TARIFFS on ALL imports, weather parts or whole, no exceptions. SLP
PEEK OILMessage #250 - 02/06/09 06:58 AMIts all over. You people bringing up Democatics and Republicans still don't get it. We have a congress and government who are all over the age of 80 who don't understand a thing. They should all be thrown out. We have a corrupted politcal system. No one in congress is an economist except Ron Paul. I have no idea how Bush was elected but thats another story and I'm no democrat. Nancy Pelosi should be thrown out she is worthless! Free markets are great when regulated just a bit and people aren't backing the trucks up! The CEO's and hedge fund managers are off to South Africa and their islands now to let us fight it out. Have you noticed how many "Rich" people have the Montana ranch and the South Africa property. If you think your local police will protect you think again look what happened in New Orleans when Katrina hit over half them quit at least in South Africa you have an army protecting you heck even Suze Orman has a place. Government let interest rates too low for too long we should have had many recessions before this, Bush needed to be relected so we kept them low. We have consumed for 25 years and average americans have spun wheels digging deeper into debt. They were under the illusion they were getting rich due to stock wealth and house wealth. Only real savings is wealth. We have no infrustructure as a country we are now built on Casinos and Retail. The real consuming states were the first to collapse ie Nevada Florida California and Arizona they don't produce anything they are the vacation states and the fraud technology state. Detroit has managed to give the car industry to the Japanese on a silver platter after not making a reliable car for 30 years. People think Madoff was this huge Ponzi scheme you haven't seen anything yet its called the baby boom generations obligations of failed pensions, social security and medicare. Thats a ponzi scheme. Bush accomplished absolutley nothing on the oil front except making the oil guys as rich as the bankers. We have no oil infrustrure still. I could go on and on and on. In short the only difference between now and 1929 is that everyone that still has a house will be watching in HD TV. Food Shortages, Oil will continue to go up and down with Chinas growing thurst, taxes will have to go up for the few remaining paying, we have two endless wars we either need to get bombing or bring them home those people will always hate us. Malls need to be plowed under for farms. Take your money out of US equities, roving gangs will consumate every neighborhood. There will be fewer things to buy period at higher prices. Technology is always good but has gutted so many real jobs everyone won't have a robot and your microsoft stock will still be stuck in the mud. Flying will be for the privileged few. Water shortages out west. The financial system will collapse within 2 years. The federal government is either bankrupt or we will have hyperinflation. Buy gold. Get normal citizens in for congress. I've never owned a gun I'm getting one and I'm in a upper middle class neighborhood. It hasn't even started and won't end for at least 10 years. China is the new world power. This hasn't even begun..........................Stop watching stupid shows at night like the Bachelor or American Idol. CNBC is worthless. FOX BUSINESS is a little better Cavuto rocks. Bloomberg gives you the real deal. Educate yourself to whats going on. Follow Nourel Roubini, Peter Schiff and Jimmy Rogers I've been following them for years and they saved me!
whatcha thinkingMessage #251 - 02/06/09 08:16 AMthe beginning of the end? feels like it...
HernzMessage #252 - 02/06/09 09:50 AMcapital B and capital S BS!
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:44:39 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #253 - 02/06/09 12:19 PMRed in Texas what is the "fix" that 90% of us will not like. I am very interested in what another Texan has to say!
ozone7Message #254 - 02/06/09 01:27 PMI despise the NRA and I am not a gun nut and it embarasses me to say this because I am a democrat for chrissake, BUT...the prudent ones among you will arm yourselves now. If things get bad, and that is a big if, you will no longer be able to buy guns. Say there is only a 10% chance things will get bad. It is still worth it to be prepared. If nothing happens you can sell you guns to someone. Think of it as buying a credit default swap on the US government.
BGA4444Message #255 - 02/06/09 02:30 PMWow what is said in Washington stays in Washington. Pelosi made the statement that if the stimulus package doesn't pass 500 million jobs will be lost. She must have made a reference to China cause there isn't even 500 million Americans. Thank God we have politicians that knows what is going on. Whew I was afraid just for a moment Pelosi didn't have a clue.lol
Jim TTMessage #256 - 02/06/09 03:09 PMOK let's say a depression is coming, and I think it may well be. This IS NOT the end of the world and it does not mean you are doomed to pain and suffering. If we return to the Wild West so be it. If we have to cook over wood fires then get ready to do it. Get in shape and get ready, start planning and enjoy your life without being sucked into the abyss of negative energy. In life you loose everything at the end, consider this practice for that reality. JIM
JakelordMessage #257 - 02/06/09 03:25 PMNO! Only if we spend 1.2 Trillion on Spending will there be a depression. You forget that Taxes will have to go to 70% on higher earners later, Before you say good, remember these are the people who will hire you if they can afford to. The later effects out weight the temporary pain. Your talking major depression if we spend this kind of money on social engineering rather than on true stimulus.
JakelordMessage #258 - 02/06/09 03:27 PMWell put Jim!
TheArmChairQBMessage #259 - 02/06/09 03:43 PMI agree. Thank heavens for the USA still being able to export food. If the gov't will revisit NAFTA and stop the unfair trade going on we can competitively export even more food. It is fact not fiction.
decoy409Message #260 - 02/06/09 03:59 PMSIMPLY B.S.!!!! YOU GREEDY SELF RIGHTOUS BACK STABBING FAT CATS! THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT THE STOCK MARKET CAN BE GOING UP!!! IT IS JUST THE SAME USELESS PIECES OF CRAP THAT STINK AND NEED TO BE FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET TO THE CESPOOL WHERE THEY BELONG! MAKEING STOCK LOOK GOOD AND BURNING SOME CASH TO DRIVE IT UP WITH FALSE REPORTS THEM 'ENTICE AND BLEED DRY' IS THE NAME OF THE GAME! SO THE REAL IGNORANT FOLLOW THERE LEAD AND THEY WIPE THEM OUT! A FIGHT TO SEE WHO CAN TAKE ALL THAT GREED WITH THEM WHEN THEY DIE! TAKE IT WHERE??? YOU THAT HAVE SCREWED US THE HARD WORKING AMERICAN PEOPLE AND NOW NEED TO OPEN YOUR VAULTS AND GIVE UP WHAT YOU HAVE STOLEN OVER THE COURSE OF YEARS AND YEARS! BUT NO LETS HAVE A STIMULAS BECOUSE WE DO NOT WANT OUR CEO FRIENDS AROUND THE WORLD THAT WE SLEEP IN THE SAME BED WITH TO GIVE UP NOTHING AS THE SAME FOR US! JUST THINK FOLKS,IF THEY WERE TO GIVE UP THE STOLEN GREED HOW SIMPLE THIS COULD BE! THAT GOES FOR ALL OF THEM ALL AROUND THE WORLD! FROM THE WAY,WAY,WAY OVERPAID ATHLETES TO THE MOVIE STARS TO THE CEO'S TO THE DOCTORS,TO THE GOVERMENT,TO THE ILLEAGALS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN MORE THEN THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN BORN HERE AND NEED NOT A GREEN CARD TO BE HERE! WANT TO MAKE A STATEMENT TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BECOUSE WITHOUT US WHO THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO BE IN CHARGE OF? NOBODY THATS WHO! SO PUT THE HAMMER DOWN AND STOP DOING THE SAME OLD SAME OLD SINCE THE START OF GOVERNING,STEALING FROM THE PEOPLE! TAKE BACK FROM THESE THIEFS! 11 MILLION IN MARIJUANA COLLECTED SALES TAX IN CALIFORNIA LAST YEAR! ARE THEY STIL PART OF THE U.S. STATES BECOUSE YOU CAN NOT EVEN HAVE A JOINT HERE OR YOU ARE IN JAIL AND ON PROBATION! PEANUT BUTTER THAT KILLS KIDS AND ADULTS! GO ARREST THEM AND LOCK THEM UP RIGHT NOW! THIS FOR ANYONE ELSE IS PRE-MEDITATED MURDER! TAKE THE MOLE HILL AS THEY HAVE DONE THROUGHOUT TIME AND TURN IT INTO A MOUNTAIN AND COLLECT GIANT DOLLARS FROM ALL OF US MEANWHILE THE MOUNTAIN THAT WAS A PROBLEM WAS IGNORED! PEOPLE THE WHISTLE BLOWERS ARE RIGHT AT THE CORNER AND WITHIN THE NEXT FEWQ MONTHS NO MORE THAN THAT THEY WILL BE BLOWING THE WHISTLES TO SAVE THERE SORRY STENCH BUTTS! AMERICAN PEOPLE BEING THIEFED OF THE 1ST STIMULAS NOW PAY AGAIN! TELL ME WHY YOU CAN NOT JUST TAKE BACK FROM THOSE THAT HAVE STOLE IT AND HAVE IT WITHOUT QUESTION? BECOUSE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE FROM THE SAME CLOTH,THEY WERE CHOOSEN TO POSSES A KEY,THAT KEY WOULD MAKE THEM VERY WEALTHY CROOKS,IT WOULD ALSO MAKE IN TIME THINGS TO BE WHAT THEY HAVE BECOME! NOW IT IS UP TO THEM WITH THE KEY TO DO THE RIGHT HUMANITY BROTHERLY THING AND CONFESS AND GIVE BACK AND CONQUER THIS VERY SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS THAT THEY HAVE PIUT THIS PLANET IN! HEY EVERBODY,DO YOU THINK THEY WILL?
Maro22Message #261 - 02/06/09 04:10 PM When the surf stops breaking in one particular spot, I paddle over to another. Business is similar. My commercial real estate business is very busy. Doom and gloom is for losers. There have been 350 new applications for business licenses per week in Oregon for the past few months. There are deals to be made. The American economy has always went through periods of industrial change and we are an economy unlike any on this earth. There are similarities between the USA and Japan, but we are far more diverse in industrial terms. Japan is very energy and resource dependent; the USA is much less dependent.
piperpilot279Message #262 - 02/06/09 04:28 PMAs for myself, I see so many bad things coming together at once i have to believe we are approaching the cliff of depression and will most likely go over the edge sooner than later. If you look at the stimulus package, 900 whatever billion, by some estimates over 100 billion is redistribution of wealth, pet project, payback for votes, rewards fro supporting the Dems. I liken the current government bail-outs to a man floating in the river on an float with a hole in it, slowly loosing air, but he keeps puffing away trying to rein flat it, he can't keep up and sinks, same thing happening here. The great depression, as I understand it, was a 12% unemployment rate, we are already at 7.5% and loosing ground. The new deal was financed with American money, all the stimulus money being scattered about is all borrowed, every cent, at some point our creditors, primarily Europe, China and Rich Arab countries, are going to want more interest to keep lending money, when that happens the, "government borrowing bubble" will burst and the free fall will be dramatic, far worse than the last depression. Ignore the signs if you want, but it's there if you look at what's happening realistically.
BGA4444Message #263 - 02/06/09 05:18 PMMaro the US is much less dependent on what oil? I don't think so. Piper you are correct the cliff is coming up to fast. I don't believe the Washington bunch up there now will do anything but accelerate over it. I would like to think that all they have been doing is for the public good. But yesterday Sean Hannity said the jobs the stimulus will create will cost $300,000 each. I just can't understand for the life of me why they just don't give the money to the banks that made sound business decisions. Why give the ones that became insolvent more to lose? I truly believe all of Washington is bought out. Nothing else can explain this to me!
Film62Message #264 - 02/06/09 06:19 PMAs someone with an economics education but 26 years of real world experience after college, I say we are in a serious recession and will likely be in a full depression unless two things happen: 1) the correct steps are taken and 2) we get very lucky. The biggest problem is none of the steps taken so far or even being discussed will fix the problem. We don't have enough space to lay out all of the causes for this predicament, but the basic reasons were individuals, companies and governments (yes, you): - Spending far more than they earn - Borrowing more than they could afford to pay back - Not saving anything for the proverbial 'rainy day' - Budgeting as though their incomes would rise at a phenomenal rate and interest rates would stay low - Failing to price risk into their investment decisions (as investors and lenders) - Destroying the interest rates paid to those who invest (savers and bond holders) - Believing that someone would be dumb enough to keep lending to those who can't repay - Lending money leveraged at 20 and 30 to 1 - so that if more than 3 to 5% of loans go bad, the bank is broke How do you fix it? Not through the plans tried and planned of trying to lower the cost of borrowing and encouraging more debt. Getting people to borrow more money now is like trying to cure a deadly hangover with more booze. We need to recapitalize our banking system and you don't do that by having the government borrow trillions of dollars. The capital system is a zero sum equation - there is a finite amount of capital. We talk about the government printing money but in fact they borrow it from investors by selling bonds. If the government borrows it from these investors, then gives it to banks that have failed and those banks still go belly up, the capital was wasted. Instead, if banks paid a fair rate of interest (and in my view they should be paying at least 7 or 8% based on inflation), they would attract large amounts of capital. With proper regulation, banks would lend to the credit-worthy and have enough reserves for losses. But what about those people who paid too much for their houses? This is capitalism - you do something stupid like buying a house that was 4 or 5 times your income, you deserve to lose. The fact that you COULD borrow the money does not mean you should have. House prices were ridiculously overvalued and became so because of insanely easy (no down, 110%, anyone with a pulse) financing. Without the stupidity in lending, prices would never have gone beyond affordable levels. The best and only hope for the housing market is to let prices fall to the level where the median price is no more than 2 to 2.5 times the true median income. When you can put 15-20% down and the payment is less than a third of your paycheck, homes will sell. Those who overpaid and over-borrowed will lose their homes. Those who were responsible will buy those homes at a very low price and either live in them or rent them out. To all those people who are begging, no demanding, to be bailed out: neither the government or the taxpayers owe you a thing. You signed a contract promising to repay the money you borrowed to buy or refinance you home. If you can't repay, you lose the house. Deal with it. Rewarding stupidity or ignorance only encourages more foolish behavior. So grow up, take some personal responsibility and learn from your mistakes. To President Obama and Congress: stop thinking that there is some way to bring back the easy money, free spending days. It's OVER. Really. And it's not coming back. Accept that not everyone can or should own a home. Realize the government has no business buying mortgages or encouraging unsustainable lending. Reward saving and investment, regulate leverage and lending, and let supply and demand take housing prices back where they belong. You want to recapitalize banks? Get interest rates UP (not down). How about making the interest on CDs tax free if held in a US bank for five years? Here's another tip for you - trying to 'soak the rich' w
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:45:30 GMT -5
Film62Message #265 - 02/06/09 06:28 PMcontinued will not work. You penalize successful people, one of two things happen - they either stop making lots of money because you taxed them out of their wealth or they move their wealth out of the country. Remember that the top 1% of wage earners pay 40% of income taxes and the top 15% pay about 70%. Here's an idea - everyone pays 20%. Period. No deductions, no social engineering - rewarding and penalizing for votes. Everyone knows what they pay and they adjust their budgets accordingly. Billions that were being spent on accountants, lawyers and a lot of IRS enforcement saved. Free advice to all: get out of debt, save as much as you can, grow some vegetables and work hard. Good luck to all in the rough times ahead.
laughingMan2002Message #266 - 02/06/09 06:35 PMThank God for the doom and gloomers like you..thats how people like me make money- off of paranoid people like you. Go ahead and follow the herd and sell now, lose even more money. I'm buying the stocks you're selling, so I can retire much sooner than you ever will. You can buy back my stocks after I've made lots of money off them. then you can be "safe" but way behind the inflation rate. best of luck. You're right tho- things will get worse before they get better, that;s when I buy even more stocks at the fire sale.
macturmacmactMessage #267 - 02/06/09 06:44 PMYou are absolutely right - the PEOPLE are in a depression! The really wealthy ones aren't....they are getting free BAIL OUT money...by the billions and yes even trillions of dollars. Their already big pockets are getting bigger while ours is getting smaller and smaller. There is a way to stop this madness. Either fire all 455 people who run this country and start all over again or let the PEOPLE bail us out. It needs to start this way: There is no end to how much they will pump into big pockets to make them bigger! With all this potential bail out money the big guys pay a lot of money to accountants to make their books look like a loss and they get a hand out, "Here's a big bonus for you....now go find losses so we can get free money!" As it rolls along it will cost trillions............! There is a better way! Three trillion dollars amounts to around $10,000.00 for every man woman and child in America. They have a record of all of us.....our S/S numbers.....Why don't they just send a check for $10,000.00 to every S/S number ... they have your address ... and let the people bail out the economy? We would buy cars....saving the auto industry; we would buy homes....saving the housing industry; we would put money in savings, or buy CD's, or stock and bail out all of them also! They can make it payable to your S/S number and you have to show positive identification along with S/S number card to cash it. If they want the economy to recover fast....send all checks at once.....and make them expire if not spent in 30 days.....or send a credit card that can only be used for merchandise...from homes to toys...and expire in 30 days. Wait a minute........they wouldn't get a kick back of any sort from that plan! That's why they won't do that! Mac
BGA4444Message #268 - 02/06/09 06:52 PMI sick of you people blaming this thing on people who bought and lost a home. Wall st has filled your heads with snakes. Do you think they loaned money to just anybody in 1929 and the market still fell. Go to the 10 year on the dow then hit MAX you will see the good growth years and the stealing years wakeup for God sake. If the banks made enough bad loans to put them out of business then so be it. There are plenty of good banks out there who made good loans and are sound today. Whats to keep the bad banks from making bad loans again?
Drastic changeMessage #269 - 02/06/09 08:14 PMYou like myself am looking foward to living simple without the BS......
SSalMessage #270 - 02/06/09 09:08 PMWe are not going to slide into a depression. The government will just print more money backed up by notes bought up by the Chinese and the Russians. A depression is noting to sneeze at; but I am wondering what you call a condition when the entire planets banking and monetary systems just go into vapor lock. Wait! I have a name for it....how about the "Gold Standard". Boy are we stupid or what.
SparkitoMessage #271 - 02/06/09 10:02 PMWe are not going to slide into a depression. The government will just print more money backed up by notes bought up by the Chinese and the Russians. I think the catastrophe that Obama has been referring too is exactly that---these countries have stopped buying our debt ( or have scaled back too far) and our government knows it, but we the people don't .
Crying TreeMessage #272 - 02/06/09 10:26 PMYou want an item in life? Save up your money and buy it. This borrowing of money for an item that turns out you made a bad buy and don't pay back the place you promised has ended and justly so. Minimum wage people living like CEO's on other peoples' money has come to an end. Cry all you want-It's over...
aurora40Message #273 - 02/06/09 10:31 PMIt is obvious our business and political leaders have no idea how to handle this economic crisis. The Republicans are right to drag their feet before spending such an ungodly amount of money we DON"T HAVE. Obama doesn't have a clue and is losing ground for his "stimulus plan". All it will do is stimulate the economies of other countries, since we don't have any industries left here to begin with, and the money will go into the coffers of China, India, and Japan. We cannot tax and spend ourselves into prosperity, as the current (and the past) administration has proposed. The big banks should have been left to fail - it is their own fault that they hyped the housing market into the unrealistic stratosphere and they should not receive federal (read OUR) money to correct their stupid blunders. They won't even be honest about where they spent the money! And yet, we want to give them MORE?!! If that isn't insane, I don't know what is. We as a nation, businesses and all, need to learn to live within our means. That means no credit card debt, no buying things that we can't afford, and saving for the future. So what if it hurts right now...we will all be better for it in the future. I have no pity for the whining Americans that thought that money just seemed to appear with the stroke of a pen...for years, a generation of Americans has grown up with no idea about how economics really works. The chickens have come home to roost and perhaps, a good ol' depression would be just the tonic to cure the hangover of unlimited spending and debt.
chrisvbMessage #275 - 02/07/09 04:35 AMand slowly the sun sets on a once mighty and free country! In my opinion ,the only event that would work to keep the u.s. in a leadership position in the world and people working , is another major war where the topnotch military equipment produced here lifts up the economy and bring in foreign exchange. The agricultural output is also like none other in the world and perhaps charging $147 per bushel of wheat becomes possible if (heaven forbid) starvation becomes part of the brave new world scene.
Tiger21Message #276 - 02/07/09 05:35 AMMarkman is the classic example of a prophet of doom and a Chicken Little. Unfortunately, this stuff acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy, since fear spreads like wildfire. As long as we have people like Markman leading the cheers, we can probably just forget about prosperity, because we'll never recognize it when it actually arrives. This stuff is a serious disservice to the entire free world--although it does get readership and a following for the writers and publishers. It's still totally irresponsible, though. We have some real problems, but we've had a lot of them before, and we can change direction and work through them.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:46:22 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #277 - 02/07/09 01:03 PMWhen real wages do not keep up with inflation you end up with exactly what we have here. The average American has been losing buying power for years. The filthy rich have gotten so rich it is unbelievable. The problem is since the rich will not reinvest their money in America and pay fair wages. They even want cheap illegal labor doing their cooking and cleaning and will not even pay them fair wages or their social income taxes. They feel as though they have paid enough and its not fair boo hoo.While they have to survive on their millions. There is a minimum wage in this country because there has to be. If not you would work for a dollar an hour or less. There should be a maximum wage too. I believe $500,000 a year is a good start. The million dollar houses are starting to be $250,000 you could pay cash for it!!!
BGA4444Message #278 - 02/07/09 06:00 PMOk they are about to pass spending our money on programs that will not help us. It is time for the American people to say enough is enough. Everybody to a man who voted yes on this thing has got to go. They have already proved their incompetence now vote them out of office. You must vote them out in the primary or the general election but vote them out.
SparkitoMessage #279 - 02/07/09 06:47 PMMarkman is the classic example of a prophet of doom and a Chicken Little. Unfortunately, this stuff acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy, since fear spreads like wildfire. As long as we have people like Markman leading the cheers, we can probably just forget about prosperity, because we'll never recognize it when it actually arrives. This stuff is a serious disservice to the entire free world--although it does get readership and a following for the writers and publishers. It's still totally irresponsible, though. We have some real problems, but we've had a lot of them before, and we can change direction and work through them. Tiger---no disrespect intended, but people like yourself just don't get it---the reality is this--the banks were leveraged 50 to 1 on money (that in some cases) they never even had to begin with---they rolled the dice--lost--and now we the people are footing the bill---this is happening while millions of people are losing their jobs and homes----we have arrived at larceny with impunity and because wall street is in bed with the federal government ( or better put-wall street has the federal government over a barrel) the tax payers have no choice . Markman has been spot on with his assessments of our economy and the direction of the market---if you want pie in the sky delusions then watch Larry Kudlow--I am sure that he and his bright pink tie will be blabbering about prosperity and mustard seeds all the way down the drain.
chrisvbMessage #280 - 02/07/09 07:21 PMwhen we start seeing a run on banks , it likely will be a sign that we once again have arrived at 1929. with the deposit insurance system ,there will be some $ backup but depending on the number of people that BELIEVE their money is about to disappear , it could be a disaster. reality has nothing to do with it.
Professor Den99MDMessage #281 - 02/07/09 09:58 PMWe live in a corrupt world and corruption is running rampant in the United States of America. It starts with how we finance political campaigns. It takes an enormous amount of money to run for political office. To raise money our leaders have to sell their souls to big money special interest groups and individuals. Namely corporations including banks, credit card companies, the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Add to that list other large wealthy organizations such as the Trial lawyers Association, Labor Unions and worst among them the Public employee Labor unions. Those who run for office with rare exception (Mike Bloomberg, Ross Perot, etc.) must all raise money and anyone who thinks that donors do not expect and receive favorable legislation in return for their money is either a moron, a liar or completely and hopelessly insane. The first thing America must do if it wants to correct the problem, is eliminate paid lobbyists. Then limit any and all political contributions to individuals. Prevent Businesses, Unions, or other organizations from corrupting our legislators and leaders. . Also limit the amount of contributions to $100.00 or less per individual. We must also require any of the media that uses public property such as the airwaves or public right of way, to provide a limited amount of free and equal access for political messages from the candidates and their parties. Then I'd like to see government provide a limited and equal amount taxpayer funded campaign money to all candidate who are able to obtain a set minimum number of signatures or votes in the last election, The number signatures required could be based on a small percentage of the voters from the most recent past election. that would show that he or she is a potentially viable candidate. I would expected that this would result is a more honest and cleaner government. A government run by people who can concentrate on doing what is right for society as a whole rather than their financial contributors special interests.
BGA4444Message #282 - 02/07/09 10:08 PMThe problem is my friend, reality has everything to do with it currently every single American has been hurt by this. The long term effects of what the government is doing can not be determined. All of our descendants will pay dearly for what is happening today. All I can say to them is we are sorry. The people did not want this and were too late to make changes in Washington. I know your time will be filled with great strife. But I want you to know that there was a time when America shined. When we were proud to be Americans and most of us were proud of our government. In early 2000 we begin to spend your money like it was ours, we lost manufacturing plants to cheap labor in other countries, we were so dependent on oil it ran our country, our politicians had very little insight and never looked forward to what they would do to you. It will take nothing short of a miracle or a major scientific breakthrough to get us out of this mess. The money changers and the sellers of the world's commodities have pretty much destroyed us. May God help us and bless and help you all.
traelin0Message #283 - 02/07/09 10:17 PMwhen we start seeing a run on banks , it likely will be a sign that we once again have arrived at 1929. with the deposit insurance system ,there will be some $ backup but depending on the number of people that BELIEVE their money is about to disappear , it could be a disaster. reality has nothing to do with it. If you want to know how to effect change, this is one of the ways to do it. Voting them out of office hasn't worked for decades; there is no difference between either party anymore. I refuse to do biz with a beggar bank anymore, in fact I can't believe people still are. Put your money in a credit union or buy some precious metals.
mca66Message #284 - 02/07/09 10:27 PMWould a knowledgeable economist comment on my comment: I mean an economist that is well trained, a Phd perhaps. My comment is this: No one, I mean no one talks about the 92.5% of Americans that ARE employed. Even if this goes to 12% (woe to the world - the sky is falling!), that means 88% of the workforce is working. That is a LOT of economic engine and power. A lot. I understand for the 7.5 that do not have jobs it is a very bad situation for them, but if one looks at the larger picture, MOST people are employed and creating stimulation and demand. People still need food, clothing, shelter, transportation, healthcare, military security, community security, soap and on and on. The natural resources are still available to provide these and the people have the skills to change the natural resources into things humans use. Since there will still be huge demand by the population, farmers will keep producing, medical demand ( people will still need health services), people will still need policeman and firemman and still need teachers to teach their children. People will still need cars even if they chose to keep their older one and fix on it ( auto mechanic garages will prosper and have more money to spend) and they will still use energy in all forms and it will need to be produced. So isn't this 90% or so who ARE working really be the ones who brings this economy around. Sure things will temporarily slow down some - Salvation Army clothing shops and Thrift shops will do more business probably, carpenters will be in more demand as people will fix up their house rather than buy a new one. I mean, this is not as bad as it sounds. I drive bus. We cannot get enough drivers because people are using the bus more. We have a huge supply and demand economic system in place, won't it self correct? I mean come on - this is not like this will spiral down to 90 % of Americans who will not have food, clothing, a home, medical care, schooling, energy. Please explain this. I don't get it. I think this recession/depression talk is a lot of bunk.
m8gerdudeMessage #285 - 02/07/09 10:42 PMSanta, things are BAD out there, but America is resilient and will come back. History proves this, but the problem is that it will take between 5 and 7 years to do this. And America will have to restore it's manufacturing base and get used to not being #1 on the block for a while, and GREED has caused this. Capitalism in itself is not bad, it's how are government has allowed capitalism to grow unchecked. Everything needs to have balance and we have lost ours for now, but we will get it back. I believe in America and Americans. In God we trust and never forget it.
traelin0Message #286 - 02/07/09 10:55 PMNo one, I mean no one talks about the 92.5% of Americans that ARE employed. Even if this goes to 12% (woe to the world - the sky is falling!), that means 88% of the workforce is working. Well are you trying to compare it to the Great Depression metric of 25%? If so, you may want to read up on the bogus U3 metric you are citing, and go with the U6 metric of 13.9% instead.
traelin0Message #287 - 02/07/09 10:57 PMCapitalism in itself is not bad, it's how are government has allowed capitalism to grow unchecked. LOL capitalism, what capitalism? We haven't had true capitalism in this country for at LEAST 95 years man. Centrally planned economies, via central banks, are not capitalist.
chrisvbMessage #288 - 02/07/09 11:00 PMo.k. mca66 , the 90% are still working ,but how many of them have recently dropped a well paid job for a "Mac" job?? the problem is that we are not facing just one problem but the proverbial "perfect storm" where a bunch of sins and bad decisions (by someone or some organization) conspire to all hit at the same time. in my opinion (and Japans example) this may take a decade to work itself out.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:47:13 GMT -5
FetonaMessage #289 - 02/07/09 11:21 PMAll of our descendants will pay dearly for what is happening today. All I can say to them is we are sorry. What makes you think your descendants will still be living here? My ancestors came here from Norway in the 1860s when they figured that they would be better off in America. I'm guessing that your ancestors did the same thing. Some of your descendants will probably move on as well.
BGA4444Message #290 - 02/07/09 11:40 PMYou are right I don't Know that they will be living here. But, I do know this. The deficit these politicians have ran up will have a negative impact on my children who live here now and my grandchildren. So they can stay or not but the harm has already been done. Do you not see what is going on? Fetona, answer me this- how might all this deficit spending effect you and your children?
FetonaMessage #291 - 02/08/09 12:20 AMDo you not see what is going on? Fetona, answer me this- how might all this deficit spending effect you and your children? BGA, my comments to you were strictly tongue in cheek. I do see what is going on and its a huge concern to me. Yes, I know all of this deficit spending will not be good for me, my family, and my country.
Crying TreeMessage #292 - 02/08/09 01:44 AMYour going into more than a depression with all that money the government is printing. The last president needed his IQ tested, now this money is going to mess everyone up for a long time.
ricksands123Message #294 - 02/08/09 05:42 AMI agree 14000 was unrealistic,in 2006 my father shared with me what his house was valued at and I told him "sell It", a few years ago our industry did a wage evaluation and the raises were outrageous. I asked myself how can we sustain? Well I'm getting the answer now. I can only hope that debt doesn't take too many people down.
really livinMessage #295 - 02/08/09 06:23 AMBuy Silver Now, the Amero is for real, the only way the U.S.. can get out of its debt is to devalue the dollar to almost nothing. There will be a North American Union and a new currency. The Bilderburger Group has already made the decision.
Veteran_LenderMessage #296 - 02/08/09 12:16 PMNo one, I mean no one talks about the 92.5% of Americans that ARE employed. Even if this goes to 12% (woe to the world - the sky is falling!), that means 88% of the workforce is working. LOL MCA66! How about a Veteran Lender's perspective on your POV. Cash Flow makes the world go round. It isn't as easy to come by as: being employed. You can work 24/7/365 making minimum wage and not make enough to pay the current average figure for one-bedroom apartment in America. That leaves- eating food, getting to work and wearing clothes out of that cash flow equation. You would be better off inverting the figure to: 7.8% of Americans have the cash flow wherewithal to be self-sufficient. If you are one-- congrats!
Veteran_LenderMessage #297 - 02/08/09 12:22 PMBuy Silver Now, the Amero is for real, the only way the U.S.. can get out of its debt is to devalue the dollar to almost nothing. There will be a North American Union and a new currency. The Bilderburger Group has already made the decision. Foolishness. Reducing all aspects associated with consumerism to simplest format is the answer. The cure to the credit crisis is: fixed rate, fixed term, full documentation and written established basic lending criteria. It was the way until deregulation clouded simplicity with complexity. Make Template Law for common situations and do away with He Said/She Said court cases. : At-Will Employment, Tax Reform Act, Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and all other "acts" that divert away from common sense. One Tax that everyone pays the same percentage of.
Rancher WillMessage #298 - 02/08/09 12:48 PMWe are not just headed for a depression, we are already in it and it will get worse, much worse. With the Democrats in control we can expect that only Democrat policies will be put in place, which will continue to create even greater depression until such policies are reversed. If we understand that trying the same tactics over and over again while expecting different result is the definition of Democrat insanity, then we can predict the future for our economy. Remember that in the history of the past century, every depression, major recession has occurred under Democrat control caused by Democrat policies. And every recession, depression, has been reversed by capitalism policies reversing the policies that caused the problems in the first place.
ecomomMessage #299 - 02/08/09 01:54 PMWhere do you live? Detroit? If you could give your name and address maybe we can send some people to help you through this bleek time. The depression is with you. The housing market is starting to correct itself and the rest will follow.
Stay PutMessage #300 - 02/08/09 03:28 PMThe depression is with you. The housing market is starting to correct itself and the rest will follow. ecomom, if by that you mean that the prices for housing are continuing to fall, and expected to continue to do so until 2010, by the best case scenarios, then you may be right. If, however, you are some how thinking that we have reached the bottom to falling housing prices, you could not be more wrong. Even the county's most in denial "spin" experts all have to admit that no one can actually predict when the decline will end or at what levels it will bottom out at. No one.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:48:05 GMT -5
WillmanMessage #301 - 02/08/09 03:44 PMThe world is coming to an end!!! Unemployment is at (gulp! 8%) Housing prices are falling!! People have lost 35% of their money in the stock market!! Wow!! Zowie!!! The problem is there are too many writers, broadcasters, who must come up with a story every day. The bolder the headlines, the better off they are. Without listening to all this blabber constantly, we would all be much better off. Is the economy in a tailspin? Yes.. Is the world coming to an end? No These are the same idiot writers and financial people who have been telling us to invest for the long term. Now are busy scaring everyone half to death with their stories of gloom and doom... So I guess now, we need to all foresake all our investment strategies, pull all our money out of stocks, stick it under our mattresses, and wait for the end of the world..
jas111Message #302 - 02/08/09 04:33 PMThe bankers, the wall street fools and the big corporations are simply going away and this is nothing more than a transition back to the majority of people in this country becoming entrepreneurs. ( most of the regular economy is still doing just fine, except for the medias negative view on everything)We don't need the world controlled by a few trying to dictate which products we buy or which loans we get and the excessive cost of managing stocks when small employee owned co-ops are the future. ESOP's will replace the majority of large corporations and CEO's will never make the money they did once this transition is completed. These are the best of days as the world rids itself of a tired old concept of CEO managed companies that didn't have the integrity in the first place to be a true part of a democratic society.
Stay PutMessage #303 - 02/08/09 05:18 PMAre there any exceptionally over weight ladies in here. The reason that I ask is because, in spite of all of the irrefutable facts, data, and what's going on right outside their own windows, some people are in total denial that the death of the fiat monetary system (as we know it) is at the door. We are in the infancy of a world wide, protracted depression, that will last for many years to come, and these poor souls need to actually hear you sing before they will ever accept what they and their families are about to face. 
SpoonyoneMessage #304 - 02/08/09 05:20 PMThe country has basically this year to get its act together and prevent a further downturn. Do I have confidence in the government? NO! Unfortunately, most of us don't either and that is leading to the psychology of human behavior that is "freaking people out" with our natural instinct towards self-protection. Americans are purchasing only basic needs....which of course will force many more businesses out of operation. Most businesses manufacture "stuff" nobody needs or already has enough of. Somebody talked about riots and food shortages? If you live in major cities with a large underclass of poverty, criminal behavior, gangs and drugs.....that is where most of this will occur. Don't be clueless. In the 1930's there were plenty of job marches, some rioting and general panic. You do have to be at least mentally prepared for this to happen if we truly have a meltdown....either a total depression or if our money becomes "worthless" through hyper-inflation. I am more worried about that as I see the government proceed to print money 24/7. Eventually all this paper money will flood the economy and interest will skyrocket. We could end up more like Weimar Germany than Japan.
Maximum_HarryMessage #305 - 02/08/09 06:25 PMHey Guys, I posted some comments to this article last week. I'm glad to see that the comments are still coming. I hope the policy makers are reading our comments. Pieces of solutions are being expressed by various people. Like I have been saying over and over, it is not rocket science. It was never incompetence that got us into this mess. It was corruption. If Madoff were threatened with execution by the electric chair if he did not come up with the $50 billion he fleeced from all of us, I bet you that the money would start flowing. That is the core problem that needs to be fixed and fixed now : No accountability for those who have profited so much as a result of the corruption at the highest levels of management in the companies that are now requiring and getting bailouts and putting it in their pockets while still laying off more than 600,000 people in January alone. They just aren't being held accountable by the lawmakers. Like I have also said, you and I would do more time in jail for stealing $50 than these crooks will do for stealing millions and billions. This has already been proposed by the current administration, but I'll repeat it here because it is such a great idea. Lets put the names and addresses of all those who put bailout money in their pockets on the internet along with how much they got. And lets keep them there until all the bailout money their company got is paid back. Like Obama has said, let them answer to the people. And put the names of any politicians who are interfering with making these crooks accountable right there next to them. Lets get it all out in the open for everyone in the world to see and lets leave it there until all the bailout money is paid back (ha, ha, ha...). These guys are great at dishing it out. I want to see how well they can take it. Also, guys, leave your investments where they are. Pulling them out now will be a permanent loss. In the grand scheme of things, I am a small scale investor, however, in the last 8 years I have lost over $200,000. And I am just a regular guy who has been making saving a bill for more than 20 years. And I am not about to pull my money out. If I did, it would be a permanent loss. Yes, it is going to get really, really bad. How bad, nobody can say. We won't disintegrate as a society, but the government will probably have to be the primary source of employment in this country for the foreseeable future. The layoffs and the golden parachutes and bonuses are far from being over. Most of these guys live for the moment without thinking about the future consequences of things they do now. I would say "brain of Dolphin" but that would be an insult to the Dolphins.
Bond James BondMessage #306 - 02/08/09 07:56 PMWe have zero chance of recovery, the actual name of this new stimulus bill should be called the "Pilosi package" because she is actually the one running this country. We are well on our way to a full fledged Depression. The reality is all this package does is address some of the infrastructure projects and it will for some but nothing in this package address the private sector. US corporations pay 35% in corporate taxes which is the highest in the world. Lower those taxes to 25% and give those companies more income so they can generate revenue and go back to hiring people. Much of this current package is not immediate and has no impact until 4-5 years down the road, how does that improve the economy now? The tax break I mentioned about is immediate. Obama said numerous times during his campaign that none of his stimulus proposals would carry pork, but this very bill has 30% pork. Its as if every democratic pet project was thrown in to this bill. Is $200 million to rehabilitate the National Mall a crucial way to stimulate the U.S. economy?How about $276 million to fix the computer systems at the State Department? And what about $650 million to repair dilapidated Forest Service facilities? $50 million outlay for the National Endowment for the Arts, 250 million for film for Hollywood, Unspecified billions for ACORN which is now being investigated, The provision bans money designated for school renovation from being spent on facilities that allow "religious worship, 100 million for condoms? We are not just heading straight towards a Depression, but we are also heading down a road of Socialism. They don't money going to the private sector because they want everyone working for the government either federal or state local government, they want everyone dependent on the government. Next up for him is the Fairness Doctrine to knock out all right wing radio stations and why is that? Because the LW already has NBC, ABC, CBS, CNBC, CNN, and MSNBC as well as all the news papers in the country such as the NY Times, Boston Globe, LA Times etc, how do you think he got elected? oh but they do have NPR. YES, the right has FOX, but that·s it, so in essence the right uses the radio instead and has many more RW stations to get the conservative message out. However, how come the Left does not have many radio stations? Because they always fail such as Air America. Consequently the Fairness doctrine comes in to get rid of the RW radio to stop the conservative message from people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Glenn Beck etc. Will it pass? Probably not because when you consider the Left owns the majority of the above it will be tough to claim fairness. However, if it does pass the Supreme Court will rule it unconstitutional two years later and will throw it out. The fact that it is even suggested is what should make people angry, however, maybe the ACLU will step in and say that is unfair. Oh, the 244 that passed the stimulus bill are up for re-election in two years so please make sure to wear your buttons, T-shirts, hats and that stupid euphoric look on your face 2-4 years from now because I will be right here saying, it was your bill, you wanted it and passed it so now deal with problems which is sure to come from this. Anyone with any business sense at all knows this package is going ruin this country in the long term. He said it correctly from his viewpoint, a spending bill, so its not a stimulus package anymore it is now a spending bill. Well, how about letting me decide as a citizen where we will spend some of that money? The fact is he is spending it on much of the above and the fact that he said umpteen times during his campaign that no ear marks, no pork etc would be in any of his proposals and now we have 30% of it in pork really shows the ·Yes we can, hope and change· direction he is taking the country. Know how FDR got out of the Depression? War is how and we will do the same thing. Think Iraq and Afghanistan was something? Well wait until we go to war with Iran i
FetonaMessage #307 - 02/08/09 08:09 PMI would say "brain of Dolphin" What does that mean?
Wounded warriorMessage #308 - 02/08/09 09:59 PMJon Markman, You state that 4 ingrediences are in place in this article. There is a FIFTH ingredient, never mentioned, that also must be addressed: that is the exporting of our production and employment. Ross Perot correctly warned about the "huge sucking sound" that would occur because of international trade agreements. This has been going on ever since then. Now, anow that we have exported our production and expertise to all upcoming economies of the globe, we are paying the severe price of our own unemployment. Sub-prime mortgages are responsible for but a small part of our troubles, which will be forever ongoing until the issue is addressed. I know that the Smoot-Hawley tariff bill enacted during the first 1930s depression was considered a misconceived failure, and anathma for the future. But, here's what's happening: A good friend, a computer genius and tecnician, has trained 40 Brazilian counterparts in his skills, only to receive a pink slip from his company, which then outsourced his work - to these same Brazilian trainees. Hey, this upsurge in knowledge and education is going on around the entire globe. India, China, etc, are educating people by the thousands to be productive people in the world. Guess what our youth are obsessed with? Yep, succeeding on American Idol, being running backs or supermodels - entertainers. Is it any wonder that we're laying off workers by the hundreds of thousands? Somebody ought to make our leaders aware of what we have done to ourselves over the last decades by handing over to other nations the mantle of creative thinking and production. We have willingly enhanced everyone else's ability to compete by diminishing OUR OWN capabilities. I believe this mutation is PERMANENT, and that we have already taken our place as the latest world leader to head down the slippery slope after Great Britain (with all its colonial power), Rome, Greece, Egypt, etc,etc. We are now consigned to solving our bubble with untenable new bubbles, also forwarding an impossible solution to generations that follow - because there are NO tenable resolutions to our problem. If tariffs are objectionable, so we produce and consume only American, then we must expect a long term reduction in our standard of living. Therefore, we are only witnessed the beginning of a long downward trend that will eventually cause a leveling of the living standards on the globe. Our belief that we will in six months or a year retain our global leadership are only a refusal to understand the reality and enormity of our great fall, due to internationalization. Leaders need to wake up and think about the unmentioned reasons for our catastrophe. I hope you can help them talk about the "elephant in our living room". Respectively, Junius Stenseth
AineEithneMessage #309 - 02/08/09 10:07 PMStraight up, Bond - "We are not just heading straight towards a Depression, but we are also heading down a road of Socialism." ...as our Taxes continue to rise - now to pay for the 'bailouts' in addition to whatever else the government is looking to tax and spend on - as more people end up unemployed, as more pull back to save whever they can to keep our own government from sinking us and to keep those who are drowning from sinking us, as more people end up on the dole with fewer left to support them, our economy will continue to falter and fail... but hey - wasn't it time for some change?
VasuSIMessage #310 - 02/08/09 11:08 PMYes. We are in a depression. How about some radical changes to create long term prosperity and growth, for e.g; 1. provide citizens the right to either pay taxes or pay the amount to Treasury to reduce public debt. As the liabilities go down, the growth will be more real and sustainable. From all my readings, monies sent to pay down the national debt are one of the few areas where there is good accounting and where the money is used to do what it is intended to do. 2. What use are tax cuts when there are too many people that are still unemployed? How are they going to get this money? 3. Provide payroll tax holiday AND training costs for resources hired locally and trained to do a different job. Initial costs amy seem high but since taxes are an annuity, the return on investment will be higher over the long term. Free market is not the curse. Like cars, it is the driver that is responsible for the accident; not the car. Other than making the unemployment figures look better, of what use is the bailout to banks? Other than creative accounting, banks are just a conduit to use money generated from one person to generate additional revenues. If industry and the people that work in the industry are suffering, what effect can funding a service provider achieve?
BGA4444Message #311 - 02/08/09 11:15 PMOk We are all well aware of the problems. Can anyone here offer any kind of a real solution to some of our problems? Energy is one area with the right technological breakthrough we would all benefit and perhaps help all mankind. Everyone looks to the sky or nuclear or more oil but what about generators on the bottom of the ocean floor- water propels turbines to generate electricity via dams anyone ever considered the enormous energy of the currents on the ocean floor?
Stay PutMessage #312 - 02/09/09 12:02 AMOk We are all well aware of the problems. Can anyone here offer any kind of a real solution to some of our problems? BGA4444, sure do. Go check out my most recent post giving everyone a real plan of action besides griping.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:50:06 GMT -5
gordy sMessage #314 - 02/09/09 01:52 AMUnfortunately, the morons in Washington, as well as most of the talking heads on the financial shows, don't get it. The entire economy is dependent upon the housing industry. Hundreds of thousands of jobs are directly related as well the millions of peripheral jobs. The automotive industry depends directly on housing. Most people borrow against their homes to buy autos as well as other big ticket items. Until we stabilize housing values we won't see things improve. The only way to to this is to push interest rates down to a point where people are buying new construction as well as existing housing again. This will slowly push up home values as well as provide millions of jobs. The liberals in power are going nuts trying to put every giveaway they've ever dreamed of in the economic stimulus bill. Seventy percent is pure pork and will do nothing whatsoever to improve our economic situation. So much will be spent that in 2 or 3 years we will experience 12-15 percent inflation. That's when the real problems will occur. Gordy
Wounded warriorMessage #315 - 02/09/09 02:04 AMWe have helped the undeveloped world enough now by exporting our technology and employment to them, and so we must retract our troops from everywhere, and by tariffs, REDUCE our imports from them, and produce by and patronize our OWN companies. Unemployment will immediately commence to lower, and a new cycle will begin to feed on itelf due to the size of our population. The underdeveloped world can be plenty grateful for our introduction of democracy and production skills, and content to let us retract from our helpfulness for a spell so we can heal ourselves. As long as a Chinaman can work for 50 cents an hour, there will be no healing in our unemployment syndrome, can there be? Maybe that's double what he made before anyway, so we have helped raise their standard quite bit.
FetonaMessage #316 - 02/09/09 02:14 AMMost people borrow against their homes to buy autos as well as other big ticket items. Well thats how its been for the last decade but that is not the way people should pay for big ticket items. Until we stabilize housing values we won't see things improve. Gordo, you can't reflate popped bubbles. The liberals in power are going nuts trying to put every giveaway they've ever dreamed of in the economic stimulus bill. Are George Bush, Hank Paulson, and Ben Bernake liberals? They are the ones who started with the whole stimulus packages. So much will be spent that in 2 or 3 years we will experience 12-15 percent inflation. That's when the real problems will occur. No argument on this one.
mufruMessage #317 - 02/09/09 02:21 AMTheres already a depression in parts of he country. If we do drop completely into one blame the banks. The government says we need to spend but if the banks won"t lend and are cutting peoples credit, spending will dry up even further. After 20 years with citi with never a missed payment they raised my wifes rate so high she cancelled the card and said she no longer wants one and will just buy whatever is needed with cash. Shes just one, how many thousands have had this done. Our government will try to spend there way out but what happens if we spend all this then slide back, then I beleive a depression is a guarantee. .
JohnSpearsMessage #318 - 02/09/09 02:27 AMcan you people stop the crying. Our economy is much more complicated than the 30's. There are a lot of people still working and the unemployment percentage is way below depression numbers. We will go a little further down economically then there will be a big turn around. All the money helicopter Ben dropped on us will come through and will create a mass flood of dollars and inflation will be the order of the day. Chill out. Buy now and hold Real estate or stocks.
Maximum_HarryMessage #319 - 02/09/09 02:37 AMHey Guys (and ladies), You want solutions? Okay. On the personal level, make saving money each month a bill. Just like your electric bill or gas bill or water bill. Even if you owe money, still make saving a bill. If you wait until you don't owe anybody anything until you start saving, then you will never save. You will always owe somebody something. Any debt you have, make sure it is low interest. Also, never accumulate large amounts of unsecured debt (credit cards). Develop a budget spreadsheet that projects ahead one year into the future. If you have to, budget right down to the item level. If you have children, develop a budget for them. Essentials come first. Then, after the essentials are taken care of, look at your spreadsheet to see how much is left for non-essentials. Do not get in the habit of spending money that you don't have unless it is for critically needed essentials, and only in emergency situations. Everything is not an emergency situation. Within your families, make sure everyone agrees that non-essential expenditures are not emergencies. I've been using a detailed budget spreadsheet that I created that projects ahead at least a year into the future. I've been using it at it's current level of detail since 1997. Works great. As far as the corporations are concerned, my solution is to get the money back from the people who have ripped off America and the world and let their punishment fit the total negative impact of their crimes. After that, put a law into effect that no more layoffs will be allowed by anyone. If that means that everyone in the company, including upper management, has to work 4 day work weeks, then so be it. And just like what is happening now, make the compensation for upper management more like what you see in the Japanese corporate structure. What we have happening now is bailout money going into the golden parachutes and bonuses of the upper management of companies while at the same time they are laying off more than 600,000 people in January alone. Once again, like I have been saying over and over, this is not rocket science. It is corruption. If you or I did anything like this, we would be in jail until hell froze over. Liberal, conservative, who cares what party or ideology is involved. Right is right and wrong is wrong. It's just as simple as that.
FetonaMessage #320 - 02/09/09 02:57 AMcan you people stop the crying. Sorry John, nothing like a good cry Our economy is much more complicated than the 30's. And that's a good thing? A 2009 GMC truck is more complicated than a 1967 GMC truck... does that mean the 2009 is better? There are a lot of people still working and the unemployment percentage is way below depression numbers. Yeah, but we're just getting started. Things may be a little different in a year or two. Also, unemployment is measured differently now then it was back in the depression. If you want to compare apples to apples, the current unemployment rate is higher than what the government reports. We will go a little further down economically then there will be a big turn around. Sure Sure, I'm sure you've got some great theory to back that one up? All the money helicopter Ben dropped on us will come through and will create a mass flood of dollars and inflation will be the order of the day. Yeah and all of this county's savers will be penalized, and the irresponsible borrowers will be rewarded. (Note: I said irresponsible borrowers, not legitimate borrowers). Buy now and hold Real estate or stocks. Well I don't know, ask the Japanese how their real estate market is doing.
Bertram1Message #321 - 02/09/09 03:10 AMOne word Boys & Girls, Ladies and Gents ! GREED !
Mr. 60652Message #322 - 02/09/09 03:22 AMyou bet and tax cut on our pay check isn't going to help not one bit . IT WAS TIME TO PUT REAL MONEY IN THE PUBLICS HANDS .THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED GOODS AND SERVICES START TO INPROVE AND STOP LAYOFFS. MR. HUNES HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD . I'M A DEMOCRAT JOBS DOWN THE ROAD TO LITTLE SORRY TO LATE SHAMEFUL.......
BrDaRoMessage #323 - 02/09/09 04:29 AMFirst Iceland Ukraine is very close to the edge of collapsing also
BrDaRoMessage #324 - 02/09/09 04:30 AMFirst Iceland Ukraine is very close to the edge of collapsing also
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:50:59 GMT -5
EWJ_Message #325 - 02/09/09 04:37 AMStimulus Packagge is a misnomer. Stimulate what? Spending? Spending is why all this has taken place. Spending on homes that were worth half of what they sold for. Spending on vehichles that are wasteful and underutilized. Spending on too many things that just are not needed. Young couples buying 3000sq ft homes as a first home. Geesh get a clue. 30 or 40k for a SUV or Pickup to commute to work on top of that. And all the high tech gadgets you can cram in a laptop case. No wonder the @#$ hit the fan. Buy what you need and need what you buy. Simple. If you live paycheck to paycheck you know what I mean. If you haven't had the pleasure, its a quick learning curve. Depression, ha, that's just a state of mind.
BGA4444Message #327 - 02/09/09 11:58 AMIt is time for the people to take back over Washington! We must systematically eliminate and vote out of office all politicians who are there now. We must send a message and it is with our votes. We want a balance budget and any programs must truly be pointed towards the people. The ones who are there today have proven that they are either incompetent are they only want to help special interest groups. Seeing this bill with all the pork makes me sick. Obama,Reid, and pelosi says it is a good bill. What a bold face lie!!!!!
Veteran_LenderMessage #328 - 02/09/09 12:31 PMA) You apparently haven't read the details. The current proposal has almost no pork. B) You apparently don't acknowledge the effort to present something first, see it tailored, then act on it. C) It hasn't been 30 days and a PIECE of recovery is reaching fruition. That's a major feat! D) Did you take a peak at what the "other" politicians proposed? It only protected that "have's". E) When a share of it comes to your state, will you be calling it a "lie" then too?
Allyn in MDMessage #329 - 02/09/09 01:49 PMWe are not in a Depression YET. Before the Great Depression, there were actually SEVERAL Depressions... just not as bad as the "Great" Depression. I am not sure if THIS crisis will spiral down (due to negative feedback loops) into a full-blown recession or not yet. I said "THIS" crisis because there are more coming down the road AFTER this housing/bank-lending crisis. This "crisis" is just a slap in the face compared to the groin-kick the economy will get in the near future when the government is no longer able to issue debt because no one wants to buy it (why loan someone who is bankrupt money). Things will be real bad when governments like Russia & China ditch the dollar reserves fully... I think that may slowly be underway now. The national debt over 10 trillion dollars WILL bite us. The 3rd crisis that will be coming (assuming it happens after the 2nd one) is Peak Oil, when world oil production peaks (at the latest by 2019, and then starts declining each year). When energy production starts declining, it won't matter what monetary policy is. Energy is required to do work. We will be dealing with the limitations of physics to get X amount of work done. If I had to guess, by 2019 oil production will be 100 million barrels per day (compared to 85 million now---the US uses 21 million I believe) and by 2031 oil production will have declined to around 50 million. I rather doubt the US will still be using 21 million barrels of oil by 2031 and I doubt that enough battery-powered cars will be online by then, which means a massive economic collapse. If the groin kick of dollar/national debt-collapse doesn't collapse the economy into a Depression, the shotgun blast to the kneecaps of Peak Oil surely will. Also keep in mind it takes 10 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce 1 calorie of food and the US population (due largely to immigration will be a lot bigger--350 million?--by 2031). I believe about 16% of energy in US goes to agriculture (tractors, irrigation, transport) Assuming in 2031 US oil consumption ONLY drops to 16 million bbl/day and not 10.5 million (due to US having more money to buy oil than other countries), we would need about 4 million bbl/oil for agriculture instead of 3.3 million now due to population increase, leaving about 12 million bbl/oil for NON-agricultural use in 2031 (compared to 18 million bbl for NON-agricultural use in 2008) Assuming we don't want X number of million people in the US to starve to death, the economy is going to be trashed. Read up on the Hirsch report, commisioned by the Department of Energy for further reading. I'll tell you what it means in the context of current facts: 1) we are royally screwed (not just the US, but most of the rest of the world, too), 2) there is no real way out for industrial civilization, 3) we will need to get used to idea in coming decades of hundreds of millions if not billions of people starving and then dying, 4) By 2031 Mexico will be an oil importer just like Indonesia is now (Indonesia used to be oil exporter in OPEC), 5) By 2031, the US will either have ceased to be an actual political entity or be well on the way down that path, 6) While reading this, remember back to 1984 and Sarajevo Winter Olympics. I remember thinking it looked a lot like the US. A few years later everything collapses and you have ethnic cleansing. Now look at Katrina, and the neighborhood shootings, the bridge incident, the voluntary segregation & the racial incidents in the superdome & civic center, and tell me that Bosnia or Rwanda won't happen here. It is going to be nasty, its going to be bloody, and its going to make the Great Depression seem like a Disney ride.
BGA4444Message #330 - 02/09/09 03:15 PMVet lender you are someone who has either been brainwashed or a brainwasher yourself. What you evidently do not realize is we don't have the money to do any of this crap. What they need to do is go line by line item in the budget, cutting wasteful spending, to come up with 1) The money and then 2)How they can best spend it to help the economy. I know 30 days is a very short time to come up with their most excellent plan. But, just throwing money at the situation is not going to help. As a matter of fact I bet this rescue/stimulus plan is even less effective than the first two- the rebate checks- that helped Wal-Mart and the tarp that really helped too bullcrap!!If you have decent credit there is plenty of money to loan refi is going crazy. I am just tired of being lied to.
KT in ILMessage #331 - 02/09/09 04:57 PMWe are in a depression just, not a full blown one yet. For those who may overlook it, the unemployment numbers only calculate those on unemployment and do not reflect those that have already exhaused their benefits or those who do not qualify for benefits (lets not forget our unemployed owners and 1099 contractors). By current calculations, our jobless rate is well over 15%, much higher than reported. The problem is many people are uneducated in money matter and have caused this depression to move ahead full steam. I am 33 with no credit card debt, purchased my home with 1 income, and I have followed the rule that if I my husband and I can't pay cash for it, we don't buy it. Sure we might have to wait for things but now, after my husband just got layoff notice, we are still going to be OK. However, we know few people who can say the same. The overspending and liquid credit has caused many to act as if they missed out on any relistic idea of how to manage their money. Sure during the market boom I could have bought a $200,000 house but I would not been able to heat it or have any electric...not to mention eat but I could afford the house payment. Aside from job creation, financial education should be the #1 thing. I have a tax preparation business and I spend hours trying to talk people out of refund anticipation loans. It is such a waste of money but we are willing to ignore the future for instant gradification. Can we stop a full depression, I sure hope so but it looks unlikely.
Allyn in MDMessage #332 - 02/09/09 05:05 PMOnly hindsight can tell us if we are in a full-blown Depression. In the Great Depression which started 1929, things didn't reach there worst until about 1933. So IF this IS the start, the government will not know now, and it will get a lot worse.
BGA4444Message #333 - 02/09/09 06:39 PMAllyn, the correlation between te 1930's and now are really very apparent. Just like then the banks folded world wide Deflation began to set in but if the masses don't have money there is no buying power.FDR blamed the crisis, in his 1933 inauguration speech, on the changers of money and the traders of the world's commodities. In today's terms that would be bankers and Wall st.investment firms. Regulated for years we kept them in check but since the 1980's they have caused more turmoil and disruptions worldwide than the entire previous fifty years. They are our problem the world's problem and they must be reeled back in and put on a short leash. The answer to it all is jobs at fair wages. You know American's do not want a handout they just want a hand.
Tom 4 NowMessage #334 - 02/09/09 07:06 PMThe great depression had an unemployment of over 25% so don't move granny in just yet. The government did not create this mess. They may have ignored or not seen it I'll give you that. If you want to blame someone blame a real estate agent or the bankers like the ones giving Enron (sorry forgot how to spell it) money to help cook their books. I tend to lean on blaming the real estate people for the over inflated housing values that really started this mess. At least they have been hit the hardest.
Tom 4 NowMessage #335 - 02/09/09 07:10 PMYou don't have to play the stock market but we all need a place to live!
LaughingAtOptimistMessage #336 - 02/09/09 07:29 PMListening to Liz Pulliam Weston ( articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/how-to-survive-the-next-depression.aspx), this shill for the "financial viability through happy thinking" mentality, we are not in a depression. Though her advice is to all of your luxuries. I was old enough in the last official recession of the 70's to remember that if that was a recession then this is a definitely a depression. Ask her to explain the Baltic Dry Index and I'm sure she'll hem and haw and then mumble something about having to go to the bathroom or something as she quickly excuses herself. If products don't move, money doesn't move - and if your boss isn't getting paid then neither are you.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:51:51 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #337 - 02/09/09 09:25 PMBusiness is not just off here in north Atlanta it is non existent. I always thought Atlanta was removed from most of the recession type downturns but it has hit here full on. Things are bad and accelerating. If it continues at the current rate of decline we may not last 6 more months.
Veteran_LenderMessage #338 - 02/09/09 10:38 PMVet lender you are someone who has either been brainwashed or a brainwasher yourself. What you evidently do not realize is we don't have the money to do any of this crap. We have all the money that can be printed. What we don't have is the money that has already been printed. We need to find out where it went to. Jobs don't evaporate without a action to cause the reaction. There is much to be learned about why certain things were allowed to happen since 1998, when it was obvious and pointed out that the effects would be devastating. Stop worrying about this Stimulus Initiative. It won't pass then be doled out quickly and irresponsibly, it will be deployed strategically with targeted relief. There isn't a whole lot to do alternatively so pushing this wagon off the road is counterproductive. Brainwashed? I don't think so and neither do any of those who have been steady posters here. I called it up front, lived the ride down and am working hard to not be victimized. A prudent course to be sure.
Stay PutMessage #339 - 02/10/09 12:49 AMOK. Who has the tissues? I think a group hug is in order here. After that we are all going to sit down around the campfire (those of you who have been evicted from your homes can appreciate this) together, and we are all going to share in some mighty tasty salt pork and tell some stories. Don't worry. There's enough pork for everybody. I'll start out with the campfire conversation....Oh, did I mention the Dems bill passed today? Only three Republicans voted for it, though.
Veteran_LenderMessage #340 - 02/10/09 12:55 AMThe others will awake tomorrow to the surprise of bleeding horse heads (of Godfather fame) in their beds. As for tissues... beer.
Stay PutMessage #341 - 02/10/09 01:05 AMBEER!? Are you insane? Do you know how much sin tax is on beer? Tissues are imported from China and have neither tariffs nor taxes on them. And you claim to be frugal.  
kathyforyouMessage #342 - 02/10/09 01:27 AMIceland seems to be the first that will fall. This is a world wide problem - not just a USA problem. The stock market was legalized gambling and a lot of people got took. Business success was not based on how a company did business. Success was manipulated by the big stock brokers all over the world in the same manner that oil was. Throwing money at it will not fix it. The way business is done today needs to change. The internet was mostly responsible for this happening. What used to take weeks or days suddenly can be done in seconds. No safe guards were in place. Greed of the big boys added fuel the frenzy. Who knows where it will end. Two things basically led to the fall. Messing up the food supply while trying to tell us ethanol was better than gasoline was one biggie and the Global Warming mess was another. Both of these things unbalanced the status quo of the world economy. It will take us a long time to fix the results of these two things. Food and good prices in the stores reflect the high fuel of last summer. What is grown and made this summer hopefully will relieve some of the high prices IF our wonderful politicians can tell people to hang on a few months - but it seems they are adding fuel to the fire and will make things worse. Giving out money, as they did with the first bailout, just makes things worse. Congress is more than willing to lead us down the merry path to the doom of our economy and the fall of the United States as a world leader.
kathyforyouMessage #343 - 02/10/09 03:00 AMOutsourcing steel was mainly due to the start of environmental rules and the high cost of changing to meet the standards. It was less expensive to build overseas than the change things, here plus the added benefit of lower labor costs. This has happened in most every field of manufacturing in the US.
Maximum_HarryMessage #344 - 02/10/09 03:15 AMHey Guys (and ladies), I keep lecturing all of you on making saving a bill. Here is more advice. Good advice. If you do lose your job and it looks like what you have left won't go very far, consider other countries with a much less expensive costs of living. I have a second house in Bangkok, Thailand. Thailand is the most carefree place I have ever been to and you can live very well off of $700.00 per month. Thailand is just one example. There are lots of places around the world where the money you have will go much further than it does here, and many of those places are what we would consider a paradise.
LSUBRULEMessage #345 - 02/10/09 04:49 AMPossible  I have a question: How can you call a company that flies an American flag and yet outsources all their jobs to another country for greed and nothing else, American. Are they really American? My uncle, who I never knew, serviced in the Army Air Corp and was shot down and killed over St. Lo, France June 8, 1944. What if he and other soldiers who fought under that flag, in this case sacrificed his future, had a minute to look into the future and saw nothing but Chinese products in American stores and so-called American companies taking jobs to a communist country and leaving us on the verge of depression. Would they have make that sacrifice seeing in the future that selfish and greedy Americans, many their ancestors, tossed their sacrifice away like so much trash along the highway of life. I fear returning to 1930's thinking may not cut it. We have been hemorrhaging jobs badly during the previous administration and we are continuing. The stimulus is like a band aid. And not only are we hemorrhaging jobs, but housing, and also banks who are stuck with loans and houses to unload that no one wants. Katrina survivor
OD57MEMessage #347 - 02/10/09 02:14 PMYes we are headed right down the tube. Like I'am sure many people have said it we need to start fixing were the problem is. Where high end CEO's ,Politicians, And are all over greediness of our so called government. We need to get these things addressed in stead of just put it on the tax payers back like it has been going on for to long. The tax payers haved payed enough for the goverments and corporations that have gotten out of hand. (I.E. CEO's OIL companys Etc.) Lets put the blame where it belongs not on the tax payer again. Get real and go do the right thing for a change. TICKED of TAX PAYER
BGA4444Message #348 - 02/10/09 03:11 PMDo you think outsmarting the government would be to difficult? I believe that if we started a website for Americans ,by Americans, that we could out think them! They are limited, bound to big business and special interest groups we are not. They are not the highest IQ's in the gene pool. We have the brightest available both old and young. We could all together use our resources to lower the price of stocks and at the right price take them over. How about the oil companies for a start? American fuel tanks hold the largest amount of gas in the world. What do you think would happen if we all went to only a 1/4 tank per fill up. A little more hassel for us but the price of gas would plummet. Insurance companies same thing boycott to near out of business levels and then at the right price buy their butts. You don't think the American people can kick butt too! I just spent five whole minutes coming up with these ideas . I bet you all have some too.
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