bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:52:44 GMT -5
skynateMessage #349 - 02/10/09 03:35 PMI am not able to start stockpiling yet, but will be in two weeks, The plan is buying a freezer , getting a cow and pig killed, and stockpiling the rest, This is money from my dear mother's estate. Not much but it will help. I read everything I can and hope that this will not all go down until I am prepared. There is something coming, but I own my home even though I pay lot rent and things are not too bad where I am at yet, Yes we are losing jobs and maybe even a mall but I do have a interview tomorrow. I am so worried since the meat takes 4 to 6 weeks to process and I have to wait for that check before I can prepare. If someone has suggestions please let us know.....God Bless everyone .
BGA4444Message #350 - 02/10/09 06:21 PMHey Sky you are better off with can goods, freeze dried meals, and seeds to grow something to eat next year. The problem with the freezer will be if basic services break down you will need a generator to keep it going. The generator will have to have gas to keep it going. Better to spend your money on how to hunt , fish , and farm. You will be able to live off the land long after the meat in that freezer is gone.
skynateMessage #351 - 02/10/09 06:37 PMBG, I do know how to hunt and fish , I wonder if there are generators that are solar powered? I am the best tomato raiser there has ever been. I do can, and freeze vegetables and have been taught to survive. My dad and mom lived through the depression so they loved us enough to pass on everything to help us. I am 44 years old so I have been around long enough to learn quite a bit. My kids are another question though. I guess I will still have to teach the college kids which I have two and they know so much more then me LOL<,, We will see what this mom can do.. My son is starting to get mres, and cans for all of us, We figure it wont be long till all the kids are living with me. I plan to have my stuff together by next week when the check is to arrive, I am just hoping I can make it till then. Thanks for your advice. I dont think a garden would go well here. I am in a trailor park and dont want anyone to steal from me. I will have some tomato plants and other stuff inside the house though. Take care....
JROBI27102002Message #353 - 02/10/09 06:39 PMPPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-VPPT-PPT-PPT-PPT-PPT- HELP
ungenteelMessage #354 - 02/10/09 06:43 PMI wonder if there are generators that are solar powered? I've been trying to find a generator that is powered by a wood fired steam engine. Let me know if you find one
kcoolMessage #355 - 02/10/09 07:03 PMwe are headed into a depression
outaheresoonMessage #356 - 02/10/09 07:13 PMI've been trying to find a generator that is powered by a wood fired steam engine. Let me know if you find one Try Tinytech in India. If you want to buy American you're out of luck.
CountryoneMessage #357 - 02/10/09 07:30 PMProcess your own meat. It's not rocket science cutting meat off the bone and packaging it into freezer paper.
GulfCoastMessage #358 - 02/10/09 07:40 PMI was in High School in the late 70's. There is a large segment of the population that has never been through a recession (under 45). We have nothing to compare the present crisis to thus are under the spell of the national media including calls of a depression by Mr Jubak. I am depressed by present struggles to meet my obligations to say 10 years ago. My spirits are a bit more optimistic by reading the diverse opinions expressed in this forum. Thanks to all who give your opinions on the subject. I believe people and not politics will lead us back to stability!
BGA4444Message #359 - 02/10/09 08:26 PMThe government in a frenzy to give back money to banks that failed is absurd! This thing has got to fall enough to start long term growth all over again. If we just put tons of money back in and they start the same practices all over again the same results will follow
Falling Sky - NotMessage #360 - 02/10/09 08:43 PMIf we just put tons of money back in and they start the same practices all over again the same results will follow I think this is what upsets me the most. Not a single individual has been charged with a crime, I have not heard of one single new regulation or attempt to correct the problems that helped create this mess, in fact it seems to be business as usual with the exception of now the government is pouring in Billions of dollars! Nothing has changed fundamentally!! The creed and corruption are still in place!
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:53:36 GMT -5
JimnI
Message #361 - 02/10/09 09:19 PM
We seem to have a hard enough time learning from OUR OWN mistakes! And buying USA I wouldn't call "protectionism" in today's economy but survival. Pray for those able to effect responsible decisions and look out for those who are in the meantime victims of that GREED someone just mentioned!
smallbusinessguy
Message #362 - 02/10/09 09:28 PM
Remember people... BIG Business IS government. Wall Street is holding all the cards so why would anyone want to bet?
singledad1234
Message #363 - 02/10/09 09:40 PM
I am fourty two and live in ontario canada
all i wanted in my life was a good woman and marriage
a family and a simple life
but todays america and canada is no longer little house or the waltons
thats great if you go along with teaching billy that its ok to like johnny in that way
its wonderful if you think bi sexual tia tequila is a cool show
and if you think that putting down the leaders like they do on late night talk shows
but those assholes dont sign up for the job
I am fourty two woman dont want to marry they want to run everything
woman dont want a leading man they lead the man
after all we can go to the grocery store any dam time we want its not like we need a man to go out and cut the head off the chicken and with peta out their thats just cruel anyways
I am fourty two I have three people I know in the last year that killed themselves
because they dont have anything left to dream about either.
Recession Depression either way who cares the rich will be richer when its over
more of the middle class will be gone there will be more poor
and people will say it was all for the best
the bottom line is no one cares about anyone anymore
no one gives a shit anymore IF they would just take all the people
that make 30 thousand dollars or less off the whole planet the world would be alot better place for the people with money to enjoy it
thats what they need to do OH LOOK they have already started
singledad1234
Message #364 - 02/10/09 09:41 PM
ontario fourty two
have my own garden
chickens wood etc
pay 275 a month rent
just looking for one woman
that wants a marriage
and live out the depression
in love instead of alone
Sparkito
Message #366 - 02/10/09 11:36 PM
The government should take a trillion dollars---divide it up among people who submit a W2 / any income tax paying citizen, and no matter what that number is---distribute it to us and let us stimulate the economy and save our homes.---problem solved!---they will never do it--they will try everything else while we sink deeper and deeper before they try it.
BGA4444
Message #367 - 02/11/09 12:40 AM
Hey sparky how is business? They would run the old girl in the ditch before they would give us that kind of money.lol
dicherico
Message #369 - 02/11/09 02:24 AM
Tracy Dicherico,
Well Im am ! Kinda Im happy but I dont have a job I did but heck I went from 100k to 80 k to 40 k now last job minimun wage my gosh !!! Please Americans Help your friends and neighbors ! Hang on look no matter what there saying look at the numbers the facts (Scary) we are so in trouble just look around go to the mall silly Bush people /voters why did you do this?
Stay Put
Message #370 - 02/11/09 02:56 AM
Ron, I did not vote for the current President, nor do I agree with most of what he stands for. I also think that everyone in the country should go take a look at the Constitution Party's web site, and check out the article showing that Obama was not born in this country (Constitutionally required) and the number of states currently suing to have him removed from office. He has also started breaking his campaign promises from day one. With that said, there is a wealth of information to criticize this man for without having to drop seventy-five points of IQ to delve into racism.
Maybe the **** or Skin Heads have a chat room that might be better suited for you.
THE FUTURE
Message #371 - 02/11/09 03:18 AM
The unemployment rate is 7.6 percent hardly a depression. The problem in this country is the limited legal liability of Corporations.
c52
Message #372 - 02/11/09 03:34 AM
What leads any sane person to beleve that manufacturing will be rebuilt in this country, manufacturing what? Clothespins maybe?
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:54:29 GMT -5
money missionMessage #374 - 02/11/09 05:39 AMI agree, and for heavens sake, does it take a rocket scientist to figure out that if people don't have jobs.........they cannot buy anything. So, regardless of what happens I think the money is being given out on the wrong end. Do what you always do and you'll get what you always got.....Just another replay of the last debacle.
money missionMessage #375 - 02/11/09 05:51 AMand just in case someone forgot........the #1 selling Christmas items were guns and ammo......
Crying TreeMessage #376 - 02/11/09 06:00 AMNow Hiring:: Politicians, Must have nut house experience and be able to throw tax payer money down a bottomless pit created by banks. equal opportunity employer. Math experience a minus.
alex2Message #377 - 02/11/09 06:30 AMYour right but the average american is to lazy or numbed by a liberal education to help themselves. A massive web effort with the right folks leading could work.
cartalkMessage #378 - 02/11/09 12:30 PMIs it GREED, or CORRUPTION? The Credit card usury charges, the oil companies, and The Wall street scandals. These with those yet to be revealed, will show that fairness and ethics in protecting the consumer are out the window. This picture is about how much did you get. It's like thieves and rogues out there skinning the hides of the American people. A sheepherders philosophy in how to make a good long living could apply. Simply, he knows he can sheer his sheep a 1000 times, but he can only skin them once. Were going to take the fallout from a SKINNERS MARKET. This is going to take quite some time to fix, Obama and Washington can't fix it, and the current financial markets can't fix it. The American public is looking and posturing to find those whom they can trust, and right now that would only be God. How low will the markets go, low enough to suggest a major shift has taken place.
Veteran_LenderMessage #379 - 02/11/09 01:03 PMWhat leads any sane person to beleve that manufacturing will be rebuilt in this country, manufacturing what? Clothespins maybe? Hopefully, every sane person believes. Our earliest ancestors understood that making tools separated us from the beasts of the Earth. Every theory that came afterward was inferior.
BGA4444Message #381 - 02/11/09 02:39 PMChina owns us already and we don't even know it. With the current growth trends in China there will only be one thing for them to do invade a large continent that has the room for their people. Now the invasion has already started with their trinkets and trash. As soon as they get our economy weak enough to fail they will invade Japan,Taiwan,the Korean peninsula and the Philippines. This action will satisfy them for twenty or thirty years. But then like ants they will use all the land and resources and have to go on through indonesia and Australia. Or come to America-changing the name to China East I am telling you we can either fight them now while they are weak, using our economy to ruin theirs or we can fight them in hand to hand combat and I can assure you we will lose that battle. So call it protectionism or what ever word you prefer tariff their goods now giving the money to our industries to level the playing field or eventually they will level us.
jerr59Message #382 - 02/11/09 03:56 PMSanta Claus 007--Better wake up. if no capitalism this country would still be in the horse and buggy days (and even no buggy). The real trouble is people like you who want a welfare state ie: Democrats. Remember the old slogan,,,All for one and one for all.. Communsium,,,and look where them countries are at. Yes we got Crooks here but the people (voters) are the ones who allowed it.
BJDRMessage #383 - 02/11/09 04:06 PMWhile the country burns the US Congress fiddles. I'm watching the US House of Representatives tribute to John Dingle of Michigan who is the longest serving member of the House. Maybe at this time these guys should stop honoring each other and spend the time working on some of the IMPORTANT issues like JOBS. Michigan has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country, with 1 in 8 people on food stamps. Yet the House takes timeout to honor the longest serving congressman from Michigan. With statistics like that it's amazing he still has a JOB, so lets save the tribute for another day.
motermateMessage #384 - 02/11/09 04:19 PMyup ! BGA you are pretty much right . However I don't think we can lick any one any more .Our politicians want let us, to many pay offs come out of continueing conflicts. they kept us in Vietnam until it looked like the country was going to lynch them and then left our troops and friends to leave like rats leaving a sinking ship.(look at the film footage of the embasy that day)it was the same way in the harbor . I was there .That has never happened in our history and the politicians that abandoned our troops and let it happen should be tortured and shot. we could have won that war. Korea to! The same thing is happing in Iraq and Afganistan they don't want to win .it's the continueing pay offs to all the supporters and it will continue until it looks as if the country can stand no more and are about to lynch the Bastards.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:55:21 GMT -5
motermateMessage #385 - 02/11/09 04:40 PMMotermate continued, all the ceos are in bed with the politicians ( in more than one way !) taking millions in bonus on top of millions in salary for doing great jobs yet the companys are broke , any one who believes this has got to be a fool . the only way for them to get this kind of money from a company is for the company to over charge for their product in the first place. This crisis is real alright but it is only that the politicians and their cronies have found another way to overcharge the people of this country .All the talk about these stimlus packages is B.S. they will pass just as soon as they figure out how they will divide it among themselves . democrats ,republicians there is no difference liers and thieves all !
HuntducksMessage #386 - 02/11/09 05:01 PMNeed to slow imports, by setting higher import rates. Another help would be to purchase only from countries whom support human rights for thier citizans. Stop buying from foriegn sweat shops. America will be more competitive on a fair playing field. We would have a much happier America, if we had more trust in our government. I blame the current financial crisis on loose government over sight. I do believe we live in the greatest country in the world. Though the rest of the world does not see us in that realm. How the world views, and respects the USA is a direct result of how we the people allow our government to operate.
Really1234Message #387 - 02/11/09 05:43 PMMotermate has it right! The blame goes to Congress and the previous two administrations. Corporate CEOs have a duty to maximize shareholder value. They are retained based on profits and growth on the company. In the late 1920's through the 1950's Congress spun up the regulations on banks and financial institutions and the lobbyist spent 50 years to water them back down. Trouble is no one knows if going through a protracted economic depression will do anything to curb the influence peddling. I certainly don't believe a financial bailout serves anyone's interest except for those peddling self interest. 'but what you going ta do?' Its clear that global trade and an unlevel playing field have been very good for the U.S. in the past. Regression into national protectionism repeats the same history of the of the last depression. Its clear that the path set before us is that the U.S. needs to continue our excessive credit happy life style if we are to resolve this recession. Are there are lots of players on the sidelines waiting for the prices of Stocks, real estate, and commodities to hit bottom before they start to wheel and deal. The rest of the world won't abandoned buying U.S. debt because their economies depend on U.S. consumers to buy their products. However as both supplier and financier they will be in the position of resetting the U.S. living standards, much like the Carnegie, JP Morgan, Rockefellers of the 19th century. In short, we're going to pay that price tag for our "anything goes," "me first," and "no my job," attitude which has prevailed for many years......and we'll thank them for serving it up to us.
JimnIMessage #388 - 02/11/09 06:10 PMPlease define fair trade agreements! US jobs hinge on "fair"... as well as "fair consumerism". Look at factories in China closed because of their declining exports. Workers going back to rural and primitive (by consumer standards) villages...to jobs? NO WAY...excepting the occasional item in paper about their investment in infrastructure. Lesson yet to be learned? How about their population becoming more the consumer instead of suffering the consequences of our "depression", depending less on exports, etc. Problem very global.
smallbusinessguyMessage #389 - 02/11/09 06:17 PMSmall Business, Small Business, Small Business. How many times do I have to say it. Stop supporting big multi-national corporations that suck the money they make out of the country and outsource your jobs. That goes for the banks and where you park your savings as well. Really, is anybody out there listening....??!! BIG BUSINESS IS RUNNING YOUR GOVERNMENT....
Walt CronkiteMessage #390 - 02/11/09 07:36 PMBGA 444: you are 100% on the bullseye. Ever since the proliferation of the CDO / CDS, off-balance sheet transactions, it became only a matter of time. As the federal govt. continues to print money at it's current pace, there is the inevitable end-game scenario that will forebear hyper-inflation. You remember those photos of europe in the '30's ? People with wheelbarrows full of worthless currency attempting to purchase a loaf of bread ? And the stores with bare shelves ? Once the states & municipalities are forced to negate paychecks to critical emergency service providers ( police, fire, etc ), how long do you think it will take for the thugs in the hood (who are already armed to the teeth) to start going into the suburbs and taking whatever they please ? Make no mistake, this is no average recession. The overused term of the congregation of the "perfect storm" is finally applicable. Iceland won't be the last govt. to fail. You are already witnessing a fragmentation of the european powers as their respective govt.'s have already made moves toward internal protectionism regarding their respective national banks. Right now there is a pervasive attitude of "every bank & country for himself". The credit markets are in a deep freeze. And no magic wand from Geithner or Obama will right the ship. In fact, after listening to Geithner's impression of an eel (slippery to the end) yesterday, apparently the markets felt the same way I did. He said nothing. It makes one wonder if there is a plan that has been formulated. TARP / TALP will not heel the fundamental gashes currently hemmoraging. If anything, pouring good $ after bad only accelerates the downward spiral. For a crystal clear synopsis of how we got here, I recommend reading "Traders, Guns & Money" by Satyajit Das. A better illumination into the mosaic of the abomination that is our financial sector cannot be had. Good luck everybody. The 'cold day in hell' is looming ever closer. Be Prepared !
the leprechaunMessage #391 - 02/11/09 08:19 PMInteresting commentary. One can almost decipher the age grouping involved here. Certainly; we are very close to a depression and it will happen. There is no way out and it has been defined well by one poster. Isolationism is our answer and the only one as global technology and monies given have sent us spiraling even deeper and closer to depression. We have to concern ourselves with here and now. We are the largest debtor nation in the world and we still somehow believe we can stay the course and recoup. We cannot and will not survive as we are not owned by "us" anymore. The idea that if we collapse economically the rest of the world will follow is erroneous. We seem to not figure in the mix the ideological differences that will point blank make this impossible. When you see double digit inflation and double digit unemployment---which is coming--you will "get it". The last nail for us is coming very soon with the rise of oil prices and even if that were not to happen --- which it will. It will not stave off the inevitable.
darvey76Message #392 - 02/11/09 09:53 PMSomething interesting occurred last night, the foreign markets didn't drop like we did, could this be the start of market isolationism? what are your thoughts leperechaun?
Veteran_LenderMessage #393 - 02/12/09 12:51 AMInteresting commentary. One can almost decipher the age grouping involved here. No doubt Lep... you should try moderating it... 14 pages of whining and crying without facts or basis. Small Business Guy, I AM listening and I agree that a change of focus will do us a lot of good. We need to get the banks in hand first, then sue lawyers into submission so we can free up American Ingenuity. Keep posting your POV, I will support it all I can. As for the Party droners, we are way past whining about Congress and attempting to sound logical about Democrat/Republican stuff. Politics don't matter right now, your future does. Figure it out TODAY.
Crying TreeMessage #394 - 02/12/09 01:55 AMI'm a hunter- gatherer Now. I hunt in the wall street jungle and gather securities at low prices. You must be careful of the financial spears if you take a wrong step. It is like a low river now and the big fish are easy to see. The depression is lurking but hunting is good. KaWoossh. Got that one. AT&T at less than half the price of Proctor & Gamble but pays bigger dividends. I know AT&T is Bell South. One of the finest baby bells hooked up to the best long distant network in the country. Quiet, I,m sneaking up on another one.
BGA4444Message #395 - 02/12/09 03:25 AMHey guys you ever had that eerie feeling like something really really big was about to happen and you just know its not going to be good? Well I have had it for weeks and I just cant put my finger on what it is. But the tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife. Hopefully it will turn out to be something good but I don't think so. Am I the only one feeling this underlying tension?
CaliDreamerMessage #396 - 02/12/09 05:58 AMBGA I sure have. A government crackdown on protesters? The assassination of a major economic player? Hold on children. Remain in your seats til the ride ends....and you may be a statistic. Grow a garden using heirloom seeds. Thumb your nose at Monsanto. Shop at yard sales and thrift stores for those purchases that can't be put off. Squeeze those nickles until they squeel. Put aside cash. Bury it in the backyard if you can't come up with a better place. Don't trust banks. Ask grandad about "bank holiday". Part of your wealth can be in precious metal. Silver is the poor man's gold. Traditional trade items in hard times are metals, liquor and weapons... call that ammunition today. Co-op with your friends and neighbors. Meet with and discuss common issues. Join together for mutual assistance. In most neighborhoods can be found those skills most needed for basic survival. Carpentry, metal working, plumbing (God I do hate plumbing), gardening, health care and most basic of them all, self defense. Look into bartering for your needs. Until they are much stronger, the government can't tax it. Look into gathering your family into a central location. This can trim costs considerably. My best advice is to love one another. We can overcome. 
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:56:13 GMT -5
beaverducks011Message #397 - 02/12/09 06:11 AMI don't think it took Washington 2 years to recognize that we were in a recession I think they new very well that we were in one but just did not want to admit it!
BGA4444Message #398 - 02/12/09 12:32 PMBeaver, do you think based on their actions they have any clue as to what caused it or how to fix it?
Veteran_LenderMessage #399 - 02/12/09 12:53 PMdo you think based on their actions they have any clue as to what caused it or how to fix it? Yes, and they fear the repurcussions. That eerie feeling is Spring. When we can go outdoors and co-mingle with nature, neighbors and community, we stop spending altogether. A factor not popularized right now is- the mental state of the sub-workers clinging to one-two-three or more sub-standard jobs. When they quit, the machines stop moving. There really isn't anything tangible holding today's major corporations together. We're in for change but for most posters here (even the really sky-is-falling ilk) it won't be completely awful and may even be uplifting. Now saying that, the wealthy will not fare well at all. The last thing you want to be when everyone reaches ground level (the bottom) is to be floating above it. Makes you stick out like a sore thumb and the object of a lot of unwanted attention, warranted or not.
BGA4444Message #400 - 02/12/09 02:33 PMHey VL you know in the 60's the majority of social unrest was about civil rights, the war, free love, and was overall pretty peaceful. Can you imagine the protest over jobs, food, and a place to live. If it were to somehow come to that the separation between the rich and the poor would close overnight. I hope that it does not come to that. But the problem here is the poor folks have got weapons too and they are a lot more of them than us. Do you really think that a person born and raised in poverty cares one bit about taking the life of someone he knows has lived much better than he? Heck no to him it is poetic justice. Why do you think it is so easy for someone to just pull the trigger now and things have been great for decades. Hopefully it will not come to the social unrest I fear is on our nation's horizon. We are much better when we have a common enemy. I truly believe that enemy is China and the much not all of the muslim world. We just need to come together on how to fight them.
JimnIMessage #401 - 02/12/09 03:15 PMSpiral still in downward direction today...market heading "south" spelled "f-e-a-r". Forget depression for a minute. If a culture remembered its values, remember to buy needs first whether an import or not, get a handle on living within means, how to say "no", protectionist not necessarily isolationist, dialog would not be looking at war, violence, all the evidence of social dysfunction. Traders are manipulators. The average "joe" trying to save, a healthy part of lifestyle, is at their mercy as they flip the Dow around at any given part of the day. Can one blame anyone for wanting "out", which is only that instinct for self-preservation. Fear has a companion called confidence or lack thereof, a word very much heard lately. Ride not over.
BGA4444Message #402 - 02/12/09 03:24 PMHey Jim do you think there is any upside for big business and republicans to see the democrats turn this thing around. I think both groups are out to try and get it so bad in the next four years that the republicans will be back in charge. Its their only hope to keep from having four more years of dems in power everywhere.
Data_Dave_MMessage #403 - 02/12/09 03:57 PMI totally agree! Now with the small stimulus check that Middle and Lower income taxpayers will be receiving from Uncle Sam, we can now take that money and spend it on Chinese made crap...GO FIGURE!! Next phase...rioting in the streets!! Mark my words!!
BGA4444Message #404 - 02/12/09 10:34 PMYeah main street gets beans while Wall St. has filet mignon.
smallbusinessguyMessage #405 - 02/12/09 11:23 PMI highly recommend everyone reads this: mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae2_3_1.pdf
traelin0Message #406 - 02/13/09 12:57 AMHey guys you ever had that eerie feeling like something really really big was about to happen and you just know its not going to be good? Well I have had it for weeks and I just cant put my finger on what it is. But the tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife. Hopefully it will turn out to be something good but I don't think so. Am I the only one feeling this underlying tension? Wow, you summed up how I've been feeling! It's like you "smell" that snowstorm coming, but you can't explain how you "smell" it.
traelin0Message #407 - 02/13/09 01:01 AMHey VL you know in the 60's the majority of social unrest was about civil rights, the war, free love, and was overall pretty peaceful. Can you imagine the protest over jobs, food, and a place to live. If it were to somehow come to that the separation between the rich and the poor would close overnight. I hope that it does not come to that. But the problem here is the poor folks have got weapons too and they are a lot more of them than us. Do you really think that a person born and raised in poverty cares one bit about taking the life of someone he knows has lived much better than he? Heck no to him it is poetic justice. Why do you think it is so easy for someone to just pull the trigger now and things have been great for decades. Hopefully it will not come to the social unrest I fear is on our nation's horizon. We are much better when we have a common enemy. I truly believe that enemy is China and the much not all of the muslim world. We just need to come together on how to fight them. See that is my fear entirely, that we are convinced to fight a total war. Make no mistakes about it, China and the Middle East aren't our enemies, it's our own profligate politicians who have urinated away our entire country on foreign wars and socialist healthcare. For 60+ years they have wrecked this country and the chickens are finally coming home to roost, for all to see. If we get attacked again, I won't be pointing the finger overseas, I'll be pointing it at DC. Nothing is going to change until the banking cartel is disbanded and the gunboat diplomacy, Military Industrial Complex is put out of its misery like an old hunting dog.
Stay PutMessage #408 - 02/13/09 01:13 AMFor the most part, this nation either understands the problems or at least understands that there are multiple problems with our economy, government, etc.. Yet it seems that most people either don't know what to do, or are unwilling to do what is needed. Cancel this erroneous spending bill and let the economy take its natural course of action. This money could be better spent on our real recovery, rather than throwing it away as is being done now.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:57:06 GMT -5
ComoKateMessage #409 - 02/13/09 01:57 AMCaliDreamer, I totally agree. My parents grew up during the Great Depression and "made do" with very little. Yet they, and many others, survived. Life isn't always pleasant and no one ( except ad agencies trying to sell you something you don't really need) ever said it would be. The bloat and greed and corruption that took over will be pared away. It had to happen. I'm looking at the silver lining because I *do* still believe in my fellow man, and it's the networks we form to help each other, that will be what ultimately is going to get us through this. A very painful time for those who never learned to share, care, or "make do or do without", but it will be a very necessary learning experience. "That which does not kill, teaches"-Nietzsche
Mike C4wMessage #410 - 02/13/09 03:02 AManyone who thinks we are in a Depression is out of their minds. This is a recession plane and simple. It has been made worse by the banking crisis NO doubt, BUT it is no different than any other recession I have seen. In 1987 when the stock market "tanked" we went into a recession. People just stopped spending money.... No one knew why.... It happens. It happened again. The american people will start spending money again. they already have. Jan 09 retail sales were up 1%. They expected a .3% decrease. that is huge!! Couple that up with the stimulus package ( love it or hate it ) we should be on the road to renewed growth by the beginning of the 3rd quarter. Don't start any soup lines or Hoovervilles quite yet. Things are as bad as any baby boomers like me have seen in their lifetime,,,, BUT a depression, not by a long shot...
ComoKateMessage #411 - 02/13/09 05:09 AMThe stock market crash of 1929 didn't result in the living conditions that we associate with as the "Great Depression" until 4 years later. I doubt anyone living in 1933 said , " I am living in the "Great Depression". It was labeled after the fact. The definition of a depression is a contraction of the economy for an extended period of time, as well as deflation, which we are currently seeing. We are probably not quite "in" a Depression right now, but the car is certainly driving in that direction. With tens of thousands of jobs being lost each month, it does not bode well for an expansion of our economy anytime soon and would certainly seem to indicate that a prolonged, continued contraction could be expected. Lots of us realized we were in a recession long before the "experts" admitted it. I'm a "boomer" myself, but the recessions we have lived through thus far were not global and were not cutting as deep as this one; even the experts are admitting that.
BGA4444Message #412 - 02/13/09 03:15 PMComo, you are right on the money. How ever some are so brainwashed or trying to brainwash us into believing everything is getting better and will be alright. The problem is the dynamics that exist now are very different than any other recession. The amount of money/wealth that we are losing to China, the middle east, and Mexico is taking buying power from the middle class and it will not return. It will not return unless we get jobs coming back into America with fair wages. Also. a one month blip on increase in sales is very misleading. I can assure all of you profits for Jan 09 vs. Jan 08 are down no less than 10% do the math on that. The economy is grinding to a massive slowdown as is the world's economy. The things the government are doing will have little or no effect. The crisis will not end until bad companies are allowed to fail. Throwing good money after bad is just a waste of good money.
BGA4444Message #413 - 02/13/09 09:24 PMSomebody in Washington is going to have to man up and say this- Hey just like most of the American people we in Washington have overspent. The only way to come out in one piece is to put together a plan to balance the budget over say ten years. It will be tough on us all but we will come out on the other side a better people and a better nation. If just one man would say this we would all get behind him. I just don't know if there is a man left in Washington no not one!
smallbusinessguyMessage #414 - 02/13/09 09:59 PMI hate to stoke the flames of fear, but I sense a major conflict is in our future. Just ask the Germans how they got through their economic collapse in the 1920's... www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/projects/1920s/Econ20s.htm
BGA4444Message #415 - 02/13/09 10:18 PMSmall bus guy that is very scary kind of parallels us today does it not?
Stay PutMessage #416 - 02/13/09 11:47 PMI really am surprised that no one really gets it when they try to compare the economic collapse of today, with that of the Great Depression of the thirties. In the thirties, as bad as it did get for our families, this nation still had a strong industrial base to help pull us out of that crisis. We no longer have that base, or foundation if you will, in which we can build upon to pull us out of this mess. We are no longer producers, but rather consumers. The ride is over people. Get a grip. It's not the fall, but rather the sudden stop that will shock most people.
Doug in IowaMessage #417 - 02/13/09 11:47 PMFor starters, were we in a depression, people would not be selling out I-Phones in 4 hours, or standing in lines with 1000 other people to buy the latest Grand Theft Auto game or sell out NFL football games and concerts across the land, ever try to buy season tickets before?. You peoples baseless fears scare me far more than any market news or recession ever could. If, and I say if you actually know people who lost 1/2 of their 401K in the last year, why don't you ask them why they had so much risk exposure in the first place? My 401K lost 2% at the very worst of this RECESSION and has already rebounded rather nicely because I PAY ATTENTION to it and shuffle things around to safe harbors and fixed income funds when things get rough. You cannot play the risk game when things are good and then cry doom and gloom when things go bad. Again I say, PAY ATTENTION, and if you don't know, pick up the phone and call your advisor or the company your 401K is managed by and ASK what is the safest thing to be in during a downturn...guess what...IT'S FREE! The company I work for made billions last year, does that make them greedy? They also contributed greatly to my 401K for my future, and in a 'round about way, that is my yearly bonus....does that make me greedy for wanting more or "thinking" that I worked my butt off for it just like the Wall Street people work for their money? If you begrudge someone for "thinking" they have earned their money, you are a sad sad person! I want to make millions like ball players do, but guess what, I can't do it, so I don't. Do I hate them and spew venom at them because they are greedy, NO. People are not standing in food lines or eating dog food to survive, get real. In fact, you should be more pi**ed that even during great times, senior citizens actually DO have to eat poorly because of the cost of their prescriptions; where is the outrage for that or the outrage for the "greedy" pharmecutical companies and doctors. Is it Wall Streets fault that losers bought homes they couldn't afford? Is it Wall Streets fault that banks made loans they shouldn't have? Why aren't you thanking Wall Street for bringing the price of oil down? Because it was proven last summer that they can sure speculate and take it up even when things are bad? Why aren't you thanking those "Greedy" billionaire Wall Street peopple like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates for donating BILLIONS to charity. Why aren't you thanking the Exxon's of the world who donate millions....." ExxonMobil, together with its employees ... volunteer hours to more than 5400 charitable organizations in 29 countries and have donated well over $150 million dollars a year for the last 50 years to charitable organizations? In fact, Corporate Social Responsibility reports that US based corporations donated 12 billion dollars to charity in the last year, where is the applause for that? I mean all of those companies trade, leverage and buy and sell their stocks all day every day on Wall Street; are they greedy Wall Street people too? People make money....we are taught from a very young age to be responsible, learn all you can, and put money away for a rainy day, if you did not do that, it is you who is to blame, not Wall Street! Some on here are correct, most people are way to soft and a little discomfort comes along and people start screaming the end times. The economy, the market, banks, housing, oil, gas and everything else is correcting and it's not pleasant, but it is NOT a depression. A depression does not have Congress putting in $650 million dollars of "stimulus" so people can get digital TV converters. Get off your arse and go earn a living!!! And in closing, if things are so bad for all of the authors of doom, despair and gloom on here and none of you see any hope, why do you all still have an internet connection and why are you still sitting on you rear end typing on a blog? I'd bet you probably have a higher priced DSL connection too! Shouldn't you be cutting back, buying food and preparing for all your relatives to move in? Your actions speak louder than
TondaMessage #418 - 02/14/09 12:09 AMI'm amazed at the starry-eyed optimism some of my compatriots still have. The U.S. economy was 70% consumption. Now, no one is spending because, like the federal government, they are tapped out, and can't pay their credit card bills, let alone their monthly mortage payments. Individual savings rates are negative. The federal government is printing money, piling up debt that can never ever be repaid. States and cities are running out. Higher education is increasingly out of the reach of more Americans. The jobs that are being produced are mainly in the service sector and don't pay respectable wages.
traelin0Message #419 - 02/14/09 12:24 AMI can really tell the generational differences between many of the posters in this very thread. It seems many of the Boomers (or who I presume to be Boomers) are eternal optimists. Well I probably would be too, if I were handed the country they were handed by the GI Generation! But those of us who have been handed this turd on a copper platter from the profligate Boomers, see the mess for what it really is. It is going to get much, much worse, and unfortunately we have no industrial base to save us this time around. I won't be surprised at all if the last gift the Boomers give us is a World War to pull us out of the oncoming crises. I'm sure we'll hear the same rhetoric from them, about the dangers and evils those dreadful Middle Easterners pose to humanity. Forget the fact that we shouldn't have been stationed in that part of the world to begin with! Compound that with my children paying for their insane wars and socialized medicine, and I can feel zero pity for the inevitable insolvency of Social Security. I for one want to be free of the taxes that benefit the last vestiges of that generation; let them feed themselves just like my son's generation will have to do.
TondaMessage #420 - 02/14/09 12:29 AMGood point. I agree I think there is a generational divide and I wish they were right. But the data are not pretty and, unless, the U.S. comes up with some world-saving technology to spur some type of real growth with products that can be sold to the rest of the world, the prospects are grim. What happens then? Obviously, the U.S. doesn't disappear, but its weight in geopolitics dips, and Washington will have to listen more and give up its "leadership" role. The fact, Washington is considering scrapping the missile defense project in Poland and the Czech Republic is telling. Getting kicked out of Kyrgyzstan is also a sign of waning power..
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:57:58 GMT -5
traelin0Message #421 - 02/14/09 12:33 AMGood point. I agree I think there is a generational divide and I wish they were right. But the data are not pretty and, unless, the U.S. comes up with some world-saving technology to spur some type of real growth with products that can be sold to the rest of the world, the prospects are grim. What happens then? Obviously, the U.S. doesn't disappear, but it's weight in geopolitics dips, and Washington will have to listen more and give up its "leadership" role. The fact, Washington is considering scrapping the missile defense project in Poland and the Czech Republic is telling. Getting kicked out of Kyrgyzstan is also a sign of waning power.. TBH, I would like to see nothing more than the US have to massively cut down on the Military Industrial Complex, so that we can return to the nation our Founders gave us and not this mishmesh of gunboat diplomacy and foreign wars.
ComoKateMessage #422 - 02/14/09 12:45 AMDoug in Iowa, you need not mock those you do not agree with, nor assume that those who post are not gainfully employed: "Get off your arse and go earn a living!!!" Nor have we been lacking in attention. Quite the opposite actually. The stock market carries risk; if you had read all of the information you get with you 401K packages, you will see it written in small print at the end. It is a gamble, and I am not a gambler by nature. Maybe you have not lost 50% of your stock worth in the last 8 months, but you are quite lucky that you have not. Many people, including those on the trading floors and money managers, as well as billionaires, millionaires, and the average guy next door, have lost the bulk of their worth. I'm sure they picked up the "phone" as you suggested. I got out of the market last spring because I *paid attention* as you yourself advocate. The doctor I work for, picked up his phone, trusted the advice he got on the other end from his broker, and now has lost half of his stock worth. The problem is, the "game" on Wall Street was bloated, corrupted and deregulated. We've lost our manufacturing base. Where do you think people in the US are going to get their money to continue to buy iPhones and computer games, when they have no longer have a place to work? Even the sales of tobacco, alcohol and porn are down...allegedly "recession proof" industries. 401 K's themselves were pushed by large companies who saw it as a way to no longer have to fully fund pension plans. The average Jane and John Doe, in my opinion, does NOT belong in the stock market because they do not have the time, resources, knowledge or ability to absorb the risk associated with being in it. But Jane and John were no longer given any option for a pension besides what they could squirrel away on their own; not easy to do since wages have been stagnant, when adjusted for inflation, for the last 20 plus years. There has been a greater division of wealth in this country with the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, and the middle class getting squeezed out of existence. We *are* paying attention...
Doug in IowaMessage #423 - 02/14/09 12:48 AM"Today, the growing concern is that Americans are starting to save too much. The Commerce Department says that while not as high as historical standards, individual savings rates have climbed significantly higher over the last year". (from the commerce website) Individual savings rates are not negative.... Being optimistic and "starry eyed" at the FACTS is far more constructive than weeping and crying over fear mongering hyperbole that the media is spewing out every single day. Go to the Commerce Department website and look at the facts....93% of all mortgages are being paid on time, 91% of all credit card debt is paid on time and the free wheeling government even corrected your complaint about higher education...." The stimulus bill includes a tuition tax credit of up to $2,500. Congress also increased the maximum Pell Grant financial aid award by $500. That means college students qualifying for a Pell Grant could get up to $5,350 this year and $5,550 next year". Are people hurting? Absolutely! Is the world coming to an end? NO! Service sector jobs are not a bad word my friend. Service jobs include many utility jobs, construction, mining jobs, agriculture, transportation and public service jobs plus a million other titles, and many of these jobs pay wages in excess of $40,000 a year, it's not great but it's not minimum wage either.
TondaMessage #424 - 02/14/09 12:54 AMIt's interesting the chattering classes nary mentioned the mega-bloated military budget. It is the ultimate sacred cow. I'd bet few Americans know Washington outspends the entire world on defense. The official figure is some $600 billion, but this, of course, doesn't include Afghanistan and Iran. There's also all types of other waste, a lot of it hidden in 'black' projects. Chalmers Johnson speaks of some 700 military bases worldwide. Unfortunately, the military has taken on almost a sacred status, with all 'supporting the troops' and trusting the military to 'protect us from the terrorists.' Lacking a firm grip of the world outside their shores, Americans are easy to spook. We are a pretty docile lot.
ozone7Message #425 - 02/14/09 01:02 AMA few things that really get me mad right now: TV news pundits saying this is nowhere near a great depression. The unemployment rate is blah blah blah and in the depression it was 25%. What they don't seem to realize is that it took years after 1929 to get to that rate, as ComoKate illustrates. The new White House plan to bail out adjustable rate mortgages that reset to grossly higher rates after a few years. This is sure to cause great anger amonst responsible home owners such as myself. If these people didn't know what they were signing that is their own damn fault. Let it go, let the home prices reflect reality. I made a crappy decision in securing my small businesss loans; I paid way too much for my commercial real estate; I am not asking anyone to bail me out. IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF. This feeling of entitlement our Baby Boom generation has. We deserve to get RICH off of our homes. How pathetic. This may not be another great depression, although it seems that way. There may be opportunity. In 1932-1933 you could have doubled your money in the market. Be patient and your will thrive or at least not lose everything. Make rational decisions not based on fear, but at the same time prepare for the worst. None of us really knows what is about to happen. In other words, the wise person will prepare for any eventuality. To quote Roosevelt, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".
traelin0Message #426 - 02/14/09 01:04 AMLacking a firm grip of the world outside their shores, Americans are easy to spook. We are a pretty docile lot. I for one hope that if/when we get attacked again, the younger folks ignore any and all demands from DC and point the finger of blame where it belongs -- the politicians. Pretty soon it will all be moot because we can no longer afford to have a presence in 130 countries.
traelin0Message #427 - 02/14/09 01:06 AMWhat they don't seem to realize is that it took years after 1929 to get to that rate, as ComoKate illustrates. And they also have no clue that the U3 unemployment metric (now 7.6%) is like comparing apples to tires if you compare it to the Depression metric of 25%. The U6 metric (now 13.9%) is the accurate metric by which to compare, and that is backed up by FACTS and documentation that EVERYONE has access to on the BLS website. Go back to 1940 documentation and look how they cite the pre-1940 metrics were acquired. They included discouraged and underemployed workers as unemployed. Back then, an apple vendor was correctly considered unemployed because they would obviously want more full-time work -- just like the majority of part-time employees today. When I first heard about what a farce the U3 metric was, I didn't believe it either until I went through gads of old, scanned documents over the decades to see how the numbers have been manipulated by various administrations (most notably, FDR, LBJ, and RWR).
Doug in IowaMessage #428 - 02/14/09 01:08 AMMy Dearest ComoKate..... You said "you need not mock those you do not agree with, nor assume that those who post are not gainfully employed:" You totally took the sentence about getting off your arse and getting to work out of context! That sentence followed my complaint about the $650 million dollars for digital television certificates, and the "get of your arse" was intended to mean, that we shouldnt be including sitting on our butts and television activities into a stimulus bill. I did not mean to direct anything at individuals on here nor assume that people weren't gainfully employed. I merely meant that people should get off their hind ends and get to work and not be at home watching tv. There was no mocking involved as it was a general statement that "we" as a nation should not be concerned with spending $650 million dollars for television during a serious and troubling time in our country when people are hurting. I'm sorry you took it that way and apologize if I wrote it that way. I respect all opinions and honestly, HONESTLY feel for and pray for anyone who is hurting or in a pinch as some of my own family members are, but lets get real, we can't be calling for the end times when we are comfortably sitting on our couch, sharing our opinions on an internet blog. If we are typing away on our laptops on high speed internet connections or dial-up for that matter, we aren't seriously worried about our own financial affairs, no matter how concerned we are with our nations affairs.
ComoKateMessage #429 - 02/14/09 01:10 AMDoug I.I., Americans , on average, save less than 4 % of their income: www.bea.gov/briefrm/saving.htm AS far as the "service industry" goes, I'm in healthcare and we're being cut too. Nurses are also being laid off in droves. Many mines have either laid off workers or closed entirely. Not one construction worker patient of mine is currently employed. *Wall Mart* as well as Macy's, are laying off droves of their "service sector". No one is safe these days, and I guarantee you those service people on the floor at both stores don't make 40,000 a year. The "old", "safe" formula for qualifying for a home mortgage was to go 2 1/2 times the annual income. To your assessment of 40,000 being livable, that would mean a home that was priced at 100,000...not many metro areas could boast good, safe homes in that price range. There has been a growing disparity of wealth.Promoting "servitude for the masses" sounds like Feudalism to me... I accept your apology. Please note I am employed, though not as much as I want due to patients losing their jobs and their health insurance and hence our clinic's numbers dwindling. Having signed up with *3* temp agencies has brought little work in , as they themselves have stated , "we've never seen it this slow for as long as we've been in existence". Neither have I. Even the fast food restaurants are not hiring here. I'm also trained in fine art, and that's not sellling either. So rather than hit the bars, light up a smoke, run out shopping with plastic in hand, I post. Being concerned with my own financial affairs does not make me, in the least, less concerned with my nation as a whole , nor less inclined to voice my opinion in *any* medium, be it via the internet, radio waves or newspaper editorial. Kate-your outspoken Minnesota neighbor to the North
traelin0Message #430 - 02/14/09 01:12 AMOld post of mine on unemployment: Well since there wasn't an official U6 measurement back then... There is a reason why U6 is as close of an apples-to-apples comparison as you can get. First, all of the unemployment numbers prior to 1940 were based on sampling estimates. Here's when it changed: www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1984/06/art2full.pdf Some more documentation on how LBJ changed unemployment metrics: www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/CT1970p1-05.pdf Thus, most surveys during the 1930s counted as unemployed those persons not working but "willing and able to work". The fact of the matter is, those on work relief or employed part-time when they wanted to be full-time are listed as unemployed in U6 -- the same way it was measured during the Depression. www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/11/unemployment-du.html
traelin0Message #431 - 02/14/09 01:23 AMnull
TondaMessage #432 - 02/14/09 01:25 AMAs for unemployment figures, the government cooks the books, failing to factor in people who have stopped looking for work, and those working a few hours a week. Throw those folks in there, and you get a figure of around 15% or so, and rising. Remember those remaining jobs are so great, that many people work two or three of them at once. As for where to direct your fear, forget the "terorists" and worry about the wallet.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:58:51 GMT -5
ozone7Message #433 - 02/14/09 01:37 AMIn other words, don't listen to the eternal optimists because many of them are the cause of the problems we now have. Ask yourself this: Are you willing to trust the same people who caused this problem (Fed, Treasury, Executive and Legislative branches) to get us out of this fiasco?In other words, don't listen to the eternal optimists because many of them are the cause of the problems we now have. Ask yourself this: Are you willing to trust the same people who caused this problem (Fed, Treasury, Executive and Legislative branches) to get us out of this fiasco? I completely disagree. Listen to everyone, the optimists and the pessimists, the liberals and the neocons, the doomsayers and the "glass is half fullers". Don't be blinded by ideology. Make rational decisions based on input from all sides. I happen to believe the entities that caused this problem are not just the government, but mostly ourselves and our endless greed and stupidity.
Stay PutMessage #434 - 02/14/09 01:45 AMBeing optimistic and "starry eyed" at the FACTS is far more constructive than weeping and crying over fear mongering hyperbole that the media is spewing out every single day. By hyperbolic, do you mean double digit unemployment, or 600,000 job losses each month and growing? By some top think tanks, those numbers are actually skewed and do not reflect the whole picture, just to keep the masses from panic and revolt. Do you have to lose your job before you start to believe things might be getting a little bad? On one level, this is so reminiscent of those days when NAFTA was first enacted, and manufacturers across the country shut their doors and moved over seas. I don't know about you, but I am not going to wait this time to sound the alarm, until after they figure out a way to outsource my position.
traelin0Message #435 - 02/14/09 01:46 AMI completely disagree. Listen to everyone, the optimists and the pessimists, the liberals and the neocons, the doomsayers and the "glass is half fullers". Don't be blinded by ideology. Make rational decisions based on input from all sides. I happen to believe the entities that caused this problem are not just the government, but mostly ourselves and our endless greed and stupidity. OK I agree with your premise. What I am saying is that one should not let themselves be fooled any longer into believing this situation could not devolve. Is that a fair statement?
Doug in IowaMessage #436 - 02/14/09 01:47 AMComoKate, I don't disagree with you at all about anything you have said. It sounds like you are a very qualified person with alot of ability in some pretty amazing fields, but let's be honest, not everyone has those qualifications. The world needs consumer service people (i.e. Wal-Mart and McDonald's) just like we need Wall Street people and no matter what job is lost, it is a person who is out of work. But, as an old Wal-Mart person myself along with my wife, we made pretty darn good money working for them back in the day. That was many moons ago and I have no idea what they pay now, but we raised two kids and had a great home when we worked there. As far as the city not offering homes in that price range, I agree, that's why we moved to the country, bought a 3 bedroom farm house on 10 acres for 80,000. Would I like a nice new home someday, you bet, but I will not extend myself to the "risky" point or buy more than I can afford as much as I may want to! It is freezing here and snowing but I come to Minneapolis for business trips about 5 times a year, so I feel for you and your nasty horrible weather up there, lol! Of course it's beautiful in the summer, but every winter trip I've made there has made me appreciate Iowa cold.
traelin0Message #437 - 02/14/09 01:51 AMOn one level, this is so reminiscent of those days when NAFTA was first enacted, and manufacturers across the country shut their doors and moved over seas. I don't know about you, but I am not going to wait this time to sound the alarm, until after they figure out a way to outsource my position. That is why NAFTA was never about "free trade", it's such nonsense. Our Founders believed in free trade with all but alliances with none. However, their definition of "free trade" and the Bush/Clinton/Bush 2 definition of "free trade" are diametrically opposed. Washington et al believed that free trade was only as free as your trading rival would allow. So how can skewed trade with China and Japan be considered free trade when we can't get crap in their doors? Or how about Mexico, which we STILL have managed trade relations with and who benefits more than we do from NAFTA? Here's the ORIGINAL North American Free Trade Agreement! Read this article in its entirety if you have the time. No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state. No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one State over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay duties in another. www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/why-managed-trade-is-not-free-trade/
reauchMessage #438 - 02/14/09 01:52 AMSooooo what you had back then was a limitation on govt. to bail out bad businesses. Thousands of banks failed, as they should have. (After all, if you and I "lent" more money than we actually possessed -- otherwise known as fractional reserve banking -- it's illegal, right?) Whats worse is that the banks are using suspect mortgages as their "reserves"........ The depression deniers can try to spin flax into gold, but this economy is like no other before it, and the remedy will be entail replacing leaning cards with concrete and re-bar, along with replacing smoke and mirrors, with ethical minds and a transparent window.
TondaMessage #439 - 02/14/09 02:03 AM
"Today, the growing concern is that Americans are starting to save too much. The Commerce Department says that while not as high as historical standards, individual savings rates have climbed significantly higher over the last year". (from the commerce website)
Individual savings rates are not negative....
Being optimistic and "starry eyed" at the FACTS is far more constructive than weeping and crying over fear mongering hyperbole that the media is spewing out every single day. Go to the Commerce Department website and look at the facts....93% of all mortgages are being paid on time, 91% of all credit card debt is paid on time and the free wheeling government even corrected your complaint about higher education...."
The stimulus bill includes a tuition tax credit of up to $2,500. Congress also increased the maximum Pell Grant financial aid award by $500. That means college students qualifying for a Pell Grant could get up to $5,350 this year and $5,550 next year".
Are people hurting? Absolutely! Is the world coming to an end? NO! Service sector jobs are not a bad word my friend. Service jobs include many utility jobs, construction, mining jobs, agriculture, transportation and public service jobs plus a million other titles, and many of these jobs pay wages in excess of $40,000 a year, it's not great but it's not minimum wage either. Saving too much? If you squirrel away money in an economy that is dependent on consumption of course that will be bad. The long-term trends point to decline, Doug, whether you like it or not. The world surely won't end, but the U.S. will be left behind as the rest of the world recovers eventually from this mess. Americans will have to get used to lower standards of living, which, actually won't be a bad thing, overall. Right now, at 5% of world population, the U.S. uses up about 25% of its resources....
Veteran_LenderMessage #440 - 02/14/09 02:09 AMApples and Oranges Doug and Kate... Iowa's economy runs 10-15% below the national average. There are jobs that pay what appears to be much less than elsewhere but lower infrastructure costs so there's parity. Unfortunately, most of the state is agricultural so population exists in isolated pockets, which is why sprawl has been unable to take root and plant thousands of Wal-Marts there. It's cold because it is flatly exposed 360 degrees. Minnesota's twin cities are an urban/suburban conglomerate that is not repeated in Iowa. Loosely conjoined to the Midwest, it's economy exceeds the national average and has higher infrastructure costs but it also is better managed than most states. It may be colder but maintains a population used to that cold and has an economy for it. If Iowa spell-checked it's websites and concentrated on becoming the Green Capital of the USA, it could see a tremendous boost in fact-seeker tourism. MN is an outstanding state for its attributes. The Land of 10,000 Lakes could easily cap a few of those with glass and create amazing bio-spheres of hydroponic potential. The problem isn't jobs Doug, its Law suppressing American Ingenuity. Those who would get off their rears if they could are either victims of, stifled by or held back by Laws that even lawyers can't navigate. We need to address this first.
reauchMessage #441 - 02/14/09 02:40 AMThe problem isn't jobs Doug, its Law suppressing American Ingenuity. Those who would get off their rears if they could are either victims of, stifled by or held back by Laws that even lawyers can't navigate. We need to address this first. So true VL, Hemp production and investigation of it's properties as an alternative to wood products comes to mind..........but government funding would help too. I would imagine that I could get a gov. grant to study the 'impact of deep earth petroleum digesting worms, on offshore oil wells', easier than I could get one to study 'the viability of hemp, replacing trees for the production of building materials'. We also have to contend with puritanical views, to bring our country forward..........I guess not much has changed in the last 233 years.
Doug in IowaMessage #442 - 02/14/09 02:53 AMYes Stay Put, the fact is we are not in double digit unemployment. The simple fact is that you can't lop off 15,000 workers in a town and expect them all to have jobs a week later. It takes time for this to all work through they system and unfortunately, people do have to finally settle for lower paying jobs. You said 600,000 a week and I quote you "to keep the masses from panic and revolt", well the truth is and you can go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and check yourself, that typically there are roughly 8-10 million people unemployed at any given time over the last 10 years, 1/4 of those choose to be unemployed and not working, i.e. my wife who is a homemaker, 1/4 are under employed by their own choosing to bring in a little extra money for the family, 1/4 are under employed because they are temp workers or the company they work for is cheap and doesn't want to pay healthcare, vacations etc, and 1/4 are actually unemployed by no choice, i.e. layoff, fired etc. The number of unemployed is now at roughly 12 million and roughly 4 million more than normal. That is a 4 million person increase in just one year which sounds like a lot right, but consider this, 1932 - 12.8 million unemployed 23.6%, 1975 - 7.9 million unemployed 8.5%, 1993 - 8.9 million unemployed 6.9%. Compared to the population of today, the 1932 number is absolutely horrifying, but if you look at the 1993 number and see that it was a 6.9% rate of unemployment with a 260 million population, versus todays rate of 7.6% with a 305 million population now, you can see that 1993 was much worse. Can it get worse, yes, but since you quote many think tanks, I will also quote some as saying we have peaked at 600,000 a month, and we will see a gradual decline in the next few months. We could lose another 2.6 million jobs over the next 3 months and still only be at 9.6% unemployment. I ain't saying it can't get worse, but historically it's not as bad as the media pounds it out to be.
Doug in IowaMessage #443 - 02/14/09 03:07 AMHi Tonda! Our economy WAS dependent on consumption, hence the savings going up, hence the consumption going down, hence the correction in the market and economy. The savings rates in the 1950's were some of the highest of all time, but every family was living the American Dream and buying homes, automobiles and hula-hoops! All of that on a whole lot less than we earn today. Their standards of living grew virtually every day so I don't agree with you that we will have to get used to a lower S.O.L. What we will have to get used to is living within our means and not trying to keep up with the "Jones's"! As far as the U.S. using up 25% of the worlds resources.....I believe that will be the ghost in the closet that gets us long before this recession does!
Stay PutMessage #444 - 02/14/09 03:20 AMtraelin0, you hit a perfect bulls eye.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 0:59:43 GMT -5
Stay PutMessage #445 - 02/14/09 03:38 AMDoug, I said 600,000 a month, not per week. If you are going to quote me, let's make it an actual quote. The very fact that you quote the Bureau of Labor Statistics, or any other Govt. agency negates your entire argument. I hate to do this to you, or anyone like you for that matter, but someone should have sat you down and explained to you how our government has repeatedly lied to the American populace for "our own good". This I'm sure will come as a shock to your system, but believe me it's better that you know this now, than to be left without a chair when the music stops. While I'm at it, I may as well finish you off. There is also no such thing as Santee Clause, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. 
akseakayakerMessage #446 - 02/14/09 04:08 AMWho cares?....I think the human race is due for a change.....the wise man would have been buying lots of guns and ammo now for years. The greed will just keep going untill it brings ruin to the total eco-social system. People need to get off the dream that we cam just keep having more and more children and believe each year our standard of living will get better. I'm not worried one bit and Obama is a fool who will lead the sheep to their death. The party has been over for years now, we are going to have only two classes of people on earth, the ones who have and the ones who will never have. Now you ask yourself.....if this come true what one will you be?
TondaMessage #447 - 02/14/09 04:26 AM
Hi Tonda!
Our economy WAS dependent on consumption, hence the savings going up, hence the consumption going down, hence the correction in the market and economy. The savings rates in the 1950's were some of the highest of all time, but every family was living the American Dream and buying homes, automobiles and hula-hoops! All of that on a whole lot less than we earn today. Their standards of living grew virtually every day so I don't agree with you that we will have to get used to a lower S.O.L. What we will have to get used to is living within our means and not trying to keep up with the "Jones's"! As far as the U.S. using up 25% of the worlds resources.....I believe that will be the ghost in the closet that gets us long before this recession does! It is still dependent on consumption, hence the huge trade imbalance with the rest of the world, and that won't be corrected anytime soon, Doug. Again, I wish it wasn't true. I don't need to tell you that many folks used their homes as collateral to fuel consumption. That option is now gone. So, Americans will have to do with less. Not all of them. The U.S. is also experiencing a widening gap between the haves and the have-nots. Again this trend is set to continue. As for your point on natural resources... I don't understand it. Hope all is well in Iowa.
ex gm workerMessage #448 - 02/14/09 04:43 AMI aint buyin it! We aint in no recession /depression. You been out on the highway lately? It's wall to wall cars. You cant tell me they're out job huntin at 11 pm. I know two people outta work in my immediate family, well three but Davids hooked on crack and there is no hope for him. You drive by the mall its packed. I been busy as hell workin 6 7 days a week. I have been lookin into buyin gold, cause I'm worried the US Dollar is gonna be worth nada, not a damn thing. I hate to get stuck with a bunch of dead presidents. But I'd like to have something to trade for goods if things get real bad like Peter Schiff says they will. When Peter Schiff talks everybody listens.
10 10Message #449 - 02/14/09 04:45 AMThe us is all about war and debt.
Doug in IowaMessage #450 - 02/14/09 04:59 AMWell Stay Put, to begin with the typo on the week/month numbers doesn't negate the facts of the story. The very fact that you think the entire government is involved in some sort of massive conspiracy only confirms your nutty-ness so trying to convince you would be pointless and a complete waste of time. While I'm at it, I might as well just finish you off.....the stories of the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause and Easter Bunny are far more believeable than your "Philadelphia Experiment", "Roswell", government cover-up! Stick to the facts junior!
ex gm workerMessage #451 - 02/14/09 05:00 AMOH YEA, My neighbor is a CAPITALIST somebody want to snitch him out?
Doug in IowaMessage #452 - 02/14/09 05:12 AMIt is still dependent on consumption, hence the huge trade imbalance with the rest of the world, and that won't be corrected anytime soon, Doug. Again, I wish it wasn't true. I don't need to tell you that many folks used their homes as collateral to fuel consumption. That option is now gone. So, Americans will have to do with less. Not all of them. The U.S. is also experiencing a widening gap between the haves and the have-nots. Again this trend is set to continue. As for your point on natural resources... I don't understand it. Hope all is well in Iowa. Hi Tonda again! Thank you, it is actually very well in Iowa other than the lousy snow we got today. It's very pretty out, but yuck I hate snow!! Did you mean you didn't understand what I meant about natural resources or you don't understand our dependance on N.R.? Sorry, I'm a tad slow, lol. Stay Put would have you believe I'm a lot slow. Just in case it's the former, I think our dependance on our earths resources and the abuse of the environment will be what hurts mankind more than recessions/depressions, spending, trade agreements, and anything else we can think of. We have to get it figured out soon or we may have more than tightening our belts financially to worry about! Hope all is well in your neck of the woods too! 
ex gm workerMessage #453 - 02/14/09 05:13 AMMessage #449 War and Debt, and dont you forget it. The war part. We'll light up your azz like it's the fourth of July. Coal and the military is our only ace in the hole left.
Doug in IowaMessage #455 - 02/14/09 05:41 AMUhmmm, no, I wouldn't say "tree Humper" per say. I'm an avid hunter and fisherman, but I believe we have to take care of our planet and the resources it provides us.
Stay PutMessage #456 - 02/14/09 05:48 AMthe stories of the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause and Easter Bunny are far more believeable than your "Philadelphia Experiment", "Roswell", government cover-up! Stick to the facts junior! Doug, Doug, Doug. First of all, I have not mentioned anything about believing in Philadelphia Experiment (wasn't that a Jimmy Stewart movie ), or Roswell, or any off the wall nonsense. With that said, however, if you bother to actually do your homework, the Freedom of Information Act, will "Prove" the countless government cover up stories that have taken place over the past century, during your childhood, and still goes on to this day. I always stick with the facts, Gramps.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:00:36 GMT -5
davidcmcdMessage #457 - 02/14/09 05:57 AMthe American people have talked along time about all the illegals here. the govt has not been able to come up with a civil way to address the problem. think about it. people who are where here ,legal or not, to make a better living than they could in their own country are now leaving in great amounts because it is not feasible to stay here any longer. problem solved?
davidcmcdMessage #458 - 02/14/09 06:03 AMare you a union man?
Stay PutMessage #459 - 02/14/09 06:19 AMFor all of my Obama, Democrat/Republican supporters. Just remember one thing. The government that you believe in, doesn't believe in you. NAFTA, Free Trade, WTO, Homeland Security, Habeas Corpus, One World Order, etc., etc..
Murphy MartinMessage #460 - 02/14/09 08:18 AMI'm not in a depression. If you don't want to be, then take some personal responsibility, and go make some money.
TAUEPSILOMessage #461 - 02/14/09 08:52 AMAmerica's fundamental culture is in the middle of a transition where the past and the present is heading into a new culture. This new culture will be very similar to what has happened centuries ago where there will be mainly two groups of citizens. The haves (rich or comfortable owning real assets) and the have-nots ( people without assets and willing to do anything to survive) and in time this will lead to a revolution. I hope I am wrong, but I have lived more than 8 decades and traveled world-wide and very familar with the life style of many cultures and I have seen how we have given our "Know-how" to slave labor in order for us Americans to have products at very low prices. In tuirn that was the foundation of keeping us from being appropriately paid for our labor. We all over indulged to having the better material life, with limited real responsibility. In principle we were brain-washed that we were "entitled" and now we are realizing that to whom we used to achieve our need to fulfill our material hunger will in time be our masters. If you know the History of Civilization you will understand that which is written herein.
StonecoldpoeMessage #462 - 02/14/09 12:05 PMGee Maestro, Is that not what they did after the first recession, depression or was there more that we just turned into none existent credit debt? Jeremiah 10:23...man cannot direct his step. Two words. "God's Kingdom"
traelin0Message #463 - 02/14/09 12:54 PMThe haves (rich or comfortable owning real assets) and the have-nots ( people without assets and willing to do anything to survive) and in time this will lead to a revolution. I have studied history exhaustively (especially our own) and we are closer to 1773 (Boston Tea Party) than people even realize. I think most people will be caught by surprise.
alb57Message #464 - 02/14/09 01:14 PMI agree with you. I always look at labels to see where things are made, and I always buy American made whenever possible. I also do a lot of e-mailing to companies to let them know I won't buy their products if they are no made here. I have written to Colgate-Palmolive, and Procter & Gamble, just to name two. I also write to companies commending them and encouraging them when I do find products made here. I let them know I will support them as long as they continue to make their products here. Check out the website bornagainamerican.org. It's a pretty awesome site, and I think (at least I hope) that it will wake Americans up.
SpoonyoneMessage #465 - 02/14/09 01:30 PMUnemployment is not yet 20% and the bread and soup lines are not lining the streets in the major cities. The dust bowel's in the Heartland do not exist and the massive migration of families to seek work in other states have yet to start. Suggest you pull up the 1930's depression on the web. Stay tuned - it could be right around the corner. P.S. - If you think the government will save your day - think again!
workinghereMessage #466 - 02/14/09 02:25 PMStimulating OH MG I am so glad they will "give us" funds to RUN out and buy that house!!!!! Since hurricanes have hit (NOT LA) many of us here in Santa Rosa and other NW Panhandle areas CAN NOT FINANCE in TRAILERS let alone a "HOUSE" Yup we are all going to· RUN" out and put $400. to $800. "down" for new home!!! States asking for MO Money for Road Taxes, Fuel Taxes·Some even asking for 2007, 2008, and 2009 to be paid BEFORE you can work in and out of state areas, AS there is NO WORK HERE!!!! This kills us, No work for Trucks, Truck supplies (PARTS) Gas stations closing, Banks tightening their "belts" so WHO could get a loan and we get WHAT?  ?? Even mid sized businesses as employee being hired to take LESS to live on as they tighten their belt! How would any of us qualify for a LOAN even to Build or repair??? Small businesses are DUMPED with what? ? Get real, They have NO CONCEPT as to how REAL PEOPLE have to live. Vote to CUT their Pay by 1/2 and they still would not know what we go through!!!! Now we all know WHY Bankruptcy LAW changed Please send a great big THANK YOU for us all trying to decide JUST WHERE TO USE that STIMULUS
Claude AgnusMessage #467 - 02/14/09 02:47 PMHello, Back to Capitalism....Nothing wrong with any form of politics..Whatever they are..They all get twisted for personal greed very fast, none we re bad at the onset.. Greed has undermine our ways of life and will continue its destructive ways until we change...How do we change in this culture where noone listens , where laws are made to protect the thieves and politics is another story.. Violence will inevitably rise its head. Besides that all is well under a clear sky.. I am not pessimistic, just disgusted.. See you on the front line..
60hippyMessage #468 - 02/14/09 03:18 PM Over the past 30yr's we have taught (against my thinking) that like in sports kids, weather good or bad there is no loser. When I grew up you either made the team or you sit the bench, or did not make the team at all. Now everyone gets to play. This has taught them, there is no losing in the game of life. The same is now with WALL STREET, AUTO, and BANKS. What about the hard working people that still are paying for there house,car and credit loans. We are getting nothing. Maybe we should all stop paying our bills, and get on the free money parade (charade)
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:01:28 GMT -5
Trainer1959Message #469 - 02/14/09 04:28 PMI think you should peruse the writings of an early 20th century economist. His name was John Maynard Keynes. Here is some of his theories: Keynesian Economics in a Nutshell - Keynes stated that if Investment exceeds Saving, there will be inflation. If Saving exceeds Investment there will be recession. One implication of this is that, in the midst of an economic depression, the correct course of action should be to encourage spending and discourage saving. This runs contrary to the prevailing wisdom, which says that thrift is required in hard times. In Keynes's words, "For the engine which drives Enterprise is not Thrift, but Profit."
- Keynes took issue with Say's Law - one of the economic "givens" of his era. Say's Law states that supply creates demand. Keynes believed the opposite to be true - output is determined by demand.
- Keynes argued that full employment could not always be reached by making wages sufficiently low. Economies are made up of aggregate quantities of output resulting from aggregate streams of expenditure - unemployment is caused if people don't spend enough money.
- In recessions, the aggregate demand of economies falls. In other words, businesses and people tighten their belts and spend less money. Lower spending results in demand falling further and a vicious circle ensues of job losses and further falls in spending. Keynes's solution to the problem was that governments should borrow money and boost demand by pushing the money into the economy. Once the economy recovered, and was expanding again, governments should pay back the loans.
- Economically and socially successful economies have significant contributions from both the government and the private sectors.
- Keynes's view that governments should play a major role in economic management marked a break with the laissez-faire economics of Adam Smith, which held that economies function best when markets are left free of state intervention.
Hang in there people, just hope that our leaders follow the correct course of action. I think our government should pay off some of the debt of ordinary citizens to the banks and financial institutions that they are owed to. Then the ordinary person can start anew, and learn from their mistakes. This will also save those financial companies and resolve the credit issues. Then invest and train our workers to learn and develop technologies and energy independent occupations that will rid us of our dependence on foreign governments for our energy needs. Oil will not last forever. We as a nation must learn,adapt, and change our thoughts and lifestyles for the betterment of mankind and not be so greedy and arrogant. And finally, stop importing more than we export. Stop exporting our industries to cheaper and foreign countries that will hold us hostage and weaken our national security. We need to create things here in the USA, not depend on other countries so much. A strong and efficient workforce without greedy owners will cement our future into something better for us and our children and children's children. Have patience and a good plan. It wil take time so patience and focus is the key to success.
Doug in IowaMessage #470 - 02/14/09 04:36 PMThat's funny Stay Put! You are correct that the Freedom of Information Act did and will free up information for the public, the problem is, they still black out all of the information they deem as "National Security" risks. If you believe that there is a UFO in a bunker somewhere like I do, no matter how much we believe it, nothing will ever make them admit it. Jimmy Stewart was awesome, but I don't know if he was in that or not? Gramps?, lol.....i'm only 42......although we probably ain't to far apart in age and you probably really aren't my junior. I got enough to worry about without being a gramps, lol. 
coldhandswarmheartMessage #471 - 02/14/09 07:02 PMAre we in a depression - Yes We Are!!! I cried the day they signed NAFTA - knew all the textile jobs in the south would leave. Never dreamed that ALL the jobs in the south would go!! Back in the 90's I read a book - The Coming Economic Earthquake by Larry Burkett. He said then in the 90's that all taxes people paid west of the Mississippi just paid the interest on the national debt - and that line moved East 100 miles a year. Well my friend it is to the ocean!! The US Government is BROKE!! Will it get worse - definately!!! Young people tried to have in 3 yrs as much as their parents had after working 30 yrs. Charge card Heaven. This old red neck says circle your wagons and get ready - its going to get rough - really rough! I am thankful every day my home is paid for and no debt. All because of a book I read years ago! Is it too late to save the nation - probably. Is it too late to save yourself - NO. Be wise from today on. Put all your charge cards in the oven on 400 degrees. Move in together to save your families. Learn how to live like they did many moons ago with very little. Don't buy nothing bigger than a bread box until you have thought about it for at least a week! My heart goes out to all who are scared in this time = And if you know the guys who signed the NAFTA - Hit them hard right where it hurts for me!!
BGA4444Message #472 - 02/14/09 11:49 PMVL yells rant and the powers remove a thread that ask a question that greatly effects the stock market. Evidently VL secretly speaks for Jubak must be in the closet together! lol
BGA4444Message #473 - 02/14/09 11:51 PMYou know it kind of feels like Russia hope the KGB doesn't show up to silence me tonight! lol or maybe its just the new Obama socialist way of keeping us quiet!!!!!!!!!!
BGA4444Message #474 - 02/14/09 11:54 PMCmon VL be man enough to makem put it back or you just against freedom of speech!!!!!!lol
ComoKateMessage #475 - 02/15/09 12:57 AMTAUEPSILO; I agree with you 100%/ Trainer1959; I'm glad you brought this gentleman into the conversation. This man was the reason Sweden was the first nation to break out of the Depression of the 1930's without a "war industry" helping. He was a fascinating, brilliant man.
jim t1234Message #476 - 02/15/09 02:30 AMgiven the present wage scale in the US the bottom will come when low end houses are about $ 15000 and the Dow is at about 3000
TondaMessage #477 - 02/15/09 02:34 AMIt's interesting to listen, or more precisely, read, some really anti-business attitudes expressed here. It's always existed, but mostly on the fringes. Americans are more apt to blame the personal failings of the individual rather than the system as it were. As the crisis worsens, Americans deference to their rulers will erode even further, with a rejection of both of the entrenched parties, maybe giving rise to something more populist and possibly more reactionary. Either way, the elites are starting to shake in their boots as the great unwashed begin to stir.
weed wackedMessage #478 - 02/15/09 02:52 AMI think we need more government workers because they work hard and are loyal.
weed wackedMessage #479 - 02/15/09 02:55 AMThe government could create an agency that teaches people how to be wise with there money and track all of there spending.
TondaMessage #480 - 02/15/09 02:57 AMWeed wacked, the title truly fits!!
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:02:21 GMT -5
weed wackedMessage #481 - 02/15/09 03:00 AMI know it sounds funny but think about it, the government could just track every thing we do and put a freeze on our checking account if it deams neccesary, this would stop all the out of control spending.
weed wackedMessage #482 - 02/15/09 06:31 AMHey let me explain
No Big D hereMessage #483 - 02/15/09 07:20 AMSorry no BIG D where I'm from, thanks to the top GOV out there Mrs. Sarah Palin. Alaska has a strong independent economy, so stay the hell out don't be Fn it up for us.
Murphy MartinMessage #484 - 02/15/09 10:08 AMI have studied history exhaustively (especially our own) and we are closer to 1773 (Boston Tea Party) than people even realize. I think most people will be caught by surprise. If the American have-nots stage a revolution, then folks like me will simply stop paying taxes, and dare the new US revolutionary government to come find us in our overseas hang-outs; and the revolutionaries will see their own taxes triple to make up the difference. Go for it.
traelin0Message #485 - 02/15/09 03:45 PMIf the American have-nots stage a revolution, then folks like me will simply stop paying taxes, and dare the new US revolutionary government to come find us in our overseas hang-outs; and the revolutionaries will see their own taxes triple to make up the difference. Go for it. Actually if all of this does come to fruition like quite a few people are suggesting (media folks, even Army War College was doing a hypothetical study on martial law and secession), then govt. would be forced to shrink and I wouldn't be surprised if the Constitution were rolled back to its strict constructionist roots. The 16th Amendment would no longer apply and personal income taxes would be irrelevant. 45% of govt. revenue comes from income taxes and eliminating them would just roll govt. back to its size in 1998. Who knows what the future holds, but the trends are leaning away from big govt. and leaning toward the 10th Amendment.
rjslrsMessage #486 - 02/15/09 04:39 PMTraelin O : You are getting my hopes up.........but there are so many that have so much to lose that big government won't go away quickly or quietly. We are still going through schemes and how many more will follow, before big government capitulates?
traelin0Message #487 - 02/15/09 04:46 PMYou are getting my hopes up.........but there are so many that have so much to lose that big government won't go away quickly or quietly. We are still going through schemes and how many more will follow, before big government capitulates? Our Founders made it quite clear how hard it is to gain liberties and freedom. It is a long, arduous process, one that in the long run doesn't benefit bankers and politicians, and entirely benefits the States and the People. (There was a reason Mason and the Anti-Federalists forced the 10th Amendment into the Constitution.) And unfortunately they knew all too well it was a nasty struggle. An early political cartoon of Ben Franklin's was quite accurate: www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/firsts/cartoon/snake.html Again, who knows what the future holds. But I have noticed a wonderful trend among recent college graduates and their understanding of our true problems in this country (the Fed, fiat currency, etc.)
Joe WhistleMessage #488 - 02/15/09 11:54 PMI am really confused by this package. How could this possibly be successful? People need to understand this economic problem has been coming for a long time. The real cause is not the housing/banking crisis it is the loss of wealth through imbalance of trade which has caused this. I will break this down "Barney style" for people....... If I earn $20k and I spend $40k I will have to take $20k out of savings. This model applies to personal income and country wealth...... So what caused the housing/banking crisis? Well it is simple, people need a place to stay. Since all the good paying jobs have been leaving this country people were force to take more risk in order to have a chance for a piece of the dream. This means they took loans that were beyond their means and the bank gave them the money because they needed the business. This is the simplest terms I can explain it to you. Well this is my prediction....... The stimulation will only lesson the rate of the collapse of the economy, it will not stop it without a way to tax the money leaving the country. Duties will not help the problem because of the outsourcing of the technical jobs will not be effected by this. For the quickest way to change the problem I would do the following: 1. Put a 15% tax on all money leaving the country. 2. Follow through with a stimulation package that focuses on infrastructure. 3. Bring all military people home except for a few key "launching" bases. These bases would have less than 1000 people each. The bases will be for launching rapid deployment forces based in the US. The wars are a waste of money that enslave our future generations with dept. 4. After the stimulation package the government must pass a balance budget law in which forces the government to live within their means. The bill will allow for debt only through a bill passed by a vote by every citizen. It is time that we stop our government from enslaving the people through debt. They don't have the moral right to do this. 5. The government must reduce their employee's by 20%. They also need to get rid of all pensions and switch to a 401k system. The pensions must go because the average worker doesn't have one and because it forces the government to pay for the cost of the employee up front. Currently the government is not funding the pension plan correctly so it is a liability for the "real working" people. In general the government does not create wealth, it steals it from the tax payers. 6. The health care "system" must be fixed. There are a couple ways to do this......... You could impose socialized medicine, I am sure the government would mess this up. Another way is to open this up more. The government must stop protecting two industries; Pharmacy companies and Insurance companies. 7. We must get off of foreign energy supplies. The best way to do this would be to get off oil completely and go with renewable resources. This will take some time so I suggest we tax the oil and process petroleum products that are exported at 100% of world market. The ideal would be to crush the oil companies out of existence and hurt the terrorist by cutting their money supply. Companies that ship off an offshore well and ship the oil to foreign countries without paying tax will have all assets seized and the top executives thrown is jail. 8. I hate to say it but social security needs to be cut by 10-20% along with medicaid and medicare. The social security system is too much like a Ponzi scheme and it needs to be reduced and eventually dismantled. The burden is already too great in my opinion and is enslaving our future generations. People can't expect an average rate of return greater than the average bond rate for the money they put in, it would be stealing from future generations. Well this would be a good start.........
captain garageMessage #490 - 02/16/09 12:35 AMNOT YET, BELEIVE ME WE WILL BE AND YOU WILL KNOW IT WHEN IT HAPPENS. AS SOON AS THE IDIOTS RUNNING THE COUNTRY FINISH DEVALUING OUR CURRENCY.
traelin0Message #491 - 02/16/09 01:24 AMJust last week, the new United States director of national intelligence, [topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/dennis_c_blair/index.html?inline=nyt-per] Dennis C. Blair, told Congress that instability caused by the global economic crisis had become the biggest security threat facing the United States, outpacing terrorism. In other words, they are worried about taxpayer revolt. They should be, since 60 years of political/military/banking collusion has bankrupted the country.
BGA4444Message #492 - 02/16/09 12:31 PMThe best way for us to revolt now is to eliminate every politician in Washington. We can do this over the next 6 years. If they have a I for incumbent by their name they must be voted out of office!!!!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:03:13 GMT -5
Murphy MartinMessage #493 - 02/16/09 01:40 PMThe stimulation will only lesson the rate of the collapse of the economy, AWESOME. I wish I could get some stimulation, and I wouldn't even say "no" to a lesson.
sheopleMessage #494 - 02/16/09 01:56 PMThe fly in your ointment is spelled JOBS. 
BGA4444Message #496 - 02/16/09 09:17 PMMore ranting- Japan worse GDP since 1974 -13%, All stock markets took a pounding today. I guess they do not think to much of our stimulus package. The party of seven finance ministers agree to nothing, they had a meeting to talk about and plan the next meeting!!!!!lol
BGA4444Message #497 - 02/17/09 02:39 PMDalton Georgia the carpet capital of the world has the second highest unemployment rate in the United States. Not only has the industry been devastated by the new housing collapse but it has also been hard hit by home owners that have put off construction projects in their homes out of fear. Now fear itself does not completely stop us but it slows us to a crawl. As long as the market continues to fall or be unstable home owners will continue to be timid about large purchases.
T-Bird_MoneyMessage #499 - 02/17/09 03:43 PMGee, Thanks for the Doom and Gloom forecast! But you do have a point to a point. But let's be realistic for once, after all, history always repeats itself over and over again, so we are long............ long overdue for another Depression! We just need to flush it out of our 'CORRUPTED' system and in time start all over again to Prosperity! Thank you very much. So basically - you're saying the system is constipated and needs to take a big ****?
BGA4444Message #500 - 02/17/09 03:49 PMAnd you know where the enema is being inserted yep you guessed it - Wall St. ha ha ha ha lol.
frigglesMessage #501 - 02/17/09 04:01 PMAdam Smith said that capitalism only works when there is a foundation of Ethics. We have allowed our system to be corrupt at every level, including government. We will never again get back to where we were only 8 years ago. This is not doom and gloom, but a realistic appraisal of where we are, the depth of the hole we have dug. The government control measures that were taken in the 1930's are basically all still in place. If you believe that the new government controls, oversight, and "ownership" will vanish into the night in a few short years, you have another thought coming. And ethics are not going to come riding back in on a white horse to save the day: we will see the banks and businesses do everything possible to screw the taxpayer in this new and eternal bailout mode we are in.
pghgatorMessage #502 - 02/17/09 05:10 PMI like that phrase..."The Eternal Bailout". I wonder when government will begin taking over the soup kitchens? Bailing out Wall Street and the Banks is now becoming clearer and I'd like to personally thank Comrade Bush for his methodical (mis)handling of events over the last eight years which brought us here. At least we get caviar and vodka.
reverendbarbMessage #503 - 02/17/09 07:53 PMThe government control measures that were taken in the 1930's are basically all still in place. Not really...our wonderful Congress has slowly but surely repealed a lot of the laws that were enacted to keep people and institutions "in check" - but due to this loosening of regulations, greed was allowed to take over.
44useyesMessage #504 - 02/17/09 08:13 PMUnfortunately, I have to agree with you. The media is "sugarcoating" a depression by calling it a recession. Why? They need to restore confidence. Where there are massive amounts of money, there are, massive numbers of crooks. The stock market situation is a blaring example. Big brother and high speed international communications coupled with technology crooks can whoop a bureaucratic and self-serving public sector into failure. It's not the governments fault. They didn't steal the money, they didn't overextend credit, and they didn't create documents to obtain commissions. What they did do wrong was to not regulate properly. That is a function of government, and government was seriously inept here. In an age of communications, we, can no longer communicate.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:04:05 GMT -5
dilbert2012
Message #505 - 02/17/09 08:24 PM
Still lots of $$ in IT. Someone has to support our websites, phones, graphics, cool gadgets, etc.
44useyes
Message #506 - 02/17/09 08:27 PM
Hey you! Don't you fing talk to me about cutting Social Security. I'm a babyboomer and I just lost everything I had. I paid a lot of money into the system,just, as many others have. Don't be so selfish!
44useyes
Message #507 - 02/17/09 08:35 PM
That's righteous. It's well stated. Never forget, business thrives and grows on profit. This is why you will see more efforts to obtain cheap labor. Disappointing as this may be, we will have to deal with this. It will be up to the private sector
BGA4444
Message #509 - 02/17/09 11:00 PM
I believe Ed is correct. The length of time that Japan has been fighting this thing is unreal. This depression is global and really just getting started in the US and Europe as far as really bad unemployment. If this thing continues to play out the dow could go as low as 4000 by the end of the year. I believe 5000 is a more realistic number. We all better batten down the hatches this is going to get rough real rough.
BGA4444
Message #510 - 02/18/09 12:00 PM
Now the oil companies are really stealing from us! Here in Atlanta gas is approaching $2.00 a gallon but we get our oil from West texas and the gulf of Mexico which is selling at $35.00 a barrel. You do the math. The east coast which gets most of its oil from the middle east is also $2.00 a gallon even with that oil selling at $45.00 per barrel. Something is rotten in Texas smells like Bush is home.
dilbert2012
Message #511 - 02/18/09 05:36 PM
Nothin worse than a rotten BUSH!
BGA4444
Message #512 - 02/18/09 09:14 PM
Hey I believe it is time to jump in. All we have to do is short anything to do with the construction business. We can do this as long as it is new home construction related. Also Lowes and Home Depot are excellent candidates along with Mohawk Ind. Shaw, and Beaulieu of America. You can make a absolute killing- go get em.
comsense
Message #513 - 02/18/09 09:44 PM
Hey I just read the "brilliant" mind news release by the bumbling Ben of the Fed. He says they now think things are much worse than they thought. These guys need to wander main street in America. Mr. Bernanke is one of the perpetrators of the TARP, remember, where did the money go. Now he and his committee of Fed operators are going to pull out all stops to help the economy. I've got valuable swamp land that's going for $1 million dollars an acre too! My advice to all, don't believe these guys, its all a cover up because they know things are more grave each day. Instead of Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke gazing into a crystal ball, now Timothy Geithner and Ben Bernanke are wearing bonnets and swapping stories. Tim's got the grease gun lubing the bearings at the printing press and Ben is pushing as hard as he can on the throttle trying to get the money press to go faster. And now the new President is promoting Socialism as the new deal. What a team!
Hydrophobic
Message #514 - 02/19/09 01:09 AM
Wow, there are intelligent comments here that show people have given this precarious economy some real thought. I think you all have hit the mail on the head. We don't make anything anymore! We buy and sell money call it arbitrage, but nothing tangible is made in the USA. That's why with over 150,000 deployed overseas in the 'war' the economy is still bottoming out. Because our war based economy assumed that we would be making the accoutrements of war, not so anymore. Until we bring manufacturing back to America, buy what we make and demand that what we make is a quality product we will be vulnerable to collapse. I've been around for quite a while and I am very concerned about the future for me, my children and grandchildren. If we are not careful our standard of living will become that of what we've somewhat scornfully referred to as a third world country!
PS. Socialism is not a dirty word and not the antithesis of Democracy, Canada and most of Europe including the British are socialist. DOn't confuse socialism with communism not at all the same. If it saves us from millions living in the streets and mile long bread lines I'm for it. Capitalism as we have practiced it in the last two decades, has been a license to steal with the tacit if not overt approval of our government. I don't know about you but I am tired of the excesses of corporate greed. When they start marching CEO's out of their million dollar offices in handcuffs, I'll feel we are moving in the right direction.
IT IS TIME TO HIT THE RESET BUTTON!
Stay Put
Message #515 - 02/19/09 02:15 AM
How green was my valley. It's a movie. Check it out.
Shanna 29
Message #516 - 02/19/09 04:21 AM
I don't care if we are in depression or recession or what ever I live in a trailer house that I paid $6,000 for and I went out and bought a year supply of canned goods to tied me over until this little bump in the road passes. I have enough money to pay my space rent for a year and if worse comes to worse I can go without electricity and gas until I get another job should I happen to lose mine. In the mean time I am continuing to spend money like I usually do. I may be poor with my old trailer and nine year old car, but at least I'm not in debt. People have no business buying homes that cost more than three times their annual income. Come on it's only common sense that if a home costs $150,000 and you only make 40,000 there is no way you can keep up with the payments. I think people who know they are going to lose their houses should just give up and buy a cheap trailer or rent a cheap apartment and spend their hard earned cash on the essentials. There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a cheap car and cheap home leave the expensive purchases to people who can actually afford to buy it. If everyone refused to pay to much for stuff the price of stuff would fall and there would be no over inflating after all it is the consumers that control prices not corporations.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:04:58 GMT -5
Stay PutMessage #517 - 02/19/09 05:42 AMjinvestor, you wrote:
Ed Balls is considered the cleverest member of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown·s government, so his warning of a new Great Depression has spooked politicians around the globe. ([globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/02/worst-recession-in-100-years.html] See here). Balls claimed that events were moving at a ·speed, pace and ferocity which none of us have seen before· and that banks were losing cash on a ·scale that nobody believed possible.· Even worse: Balls believes the new Depression will last even longer than the old one. Via [www.stockresearchportalblog.com/2009/02/uk-report-on-global-economy] Stock Research Portal Blog All of my posts have tried to warn everyone in here the exact same thing, and I have been rebuked by every critic of varying intellect, as to how I am so wrong. Every one of you not in EMERGENCY MODE are going to get caught with your panties down. When the crash does hit in full force, a years supply of canned goods will not help any of you. You will watch your children starve and when you try to step foot on my property, I'll drop you like a bad habit.
BGA4444Message #518 - 02/19/09 02:10 PMHey Stay,You too better hope it doesn't get as bad as hunger and riots because at that time it becomes a battle of the haves and the have nots. If you are are the last one standing with stuff you to will be overran by the mob rule assault that will come. It is sad to think in those terms but, here in Atlanta you should have seen the violence that broke out over gas. Just imagine if it were food. We better hope it doesn't come to that. I believe a third world war is just around the corner. There are extremist coming to power that have agendas that far exceed the need to spread our wonderful democracy throughout the world. Just keep buying lots of bullets somebody in your family will need them.
traelin0Message #519 - 02/19/09 03:27 PMIt is sad to think in those terms but, here in Atlanta you should have seen the violence that broke out over gas. Just imagine if it were food. We better hope it doesn't come to that. I believe a third world war is just around the corner. There are extremist coming to power that have agendas that far exceed the need to spread our wonderful democracy throughout the world. Just keep buying lots of bullets somebody in your family will need them. The only way the govt. could get us involved in a WW3 is if the sheeple let them. This is what the Roman emperors used to do...they'd excite the masses with propaganda and get them involved in wars when the populace was on the brink of revolt. Everyone should keep that in mind. There is no country in the world that is a bigger enemy to us than our own bankers and the Fed.
wyouserMessage #520 - 02/19/09 04:47 PMLook on the bright side, the Roman empire muddled along for the last 200 years of its existance without a balanced budget. As I recall it also provided over 225 holidays per year wirth free bread to keep the masses occupied and their thoughts directed away from political concerns.
BGA4444Message #521 - 02/19/09 05:32 PMI am really mad now ! I have not been getting my share of the free bread!!!
wyouserMessage #522 - 02/19/09 05:44 PMtowards the end, those wealthy landholders in Rome were hiring mercenaries to keep thos pesky tax collectors away from their property.
Mike C4wMessage #524 - 02/19/09 06:34 PMyou didn't get the bread???
BGA4444Message #525 - 02/19/09 06:42 PMHeck no I have been buying my own it is not fair!!!!LOL
Stay PutMessage #526 - 02/19/09 10:15 PMBGA, I do believe that isolated pockets of rioting will actually take place throughout this country, not unlike the Watts or Chicago riots of the past. I do not believe, however that we are looking at the end of civilization as we know it. The riots that do occur, will find certain states calling upon the National Guard to put down. The vast majority of Americans will find themselves too busy following directions on where they are to take their families for free soup and bread, to even consider putting themselves or their children in harms way. My comments are for the individuals that will, without any real organization, try to illegally enter my property thereby placing my family in jeopardy, or at real life and death risk. These are the people that I will drop like a bad habit, and then continue on with my dinner.
ungenteelMessage #527 - 02/19/09 10:41 PMThe riots that do occur, will find certain states calling upon the National Guard to put down. The vast majority of Americans will find themselves too busy following directions on where they are to take their families for free soup and bread, to even consider putting themselves or their children in harms way. Sounds extremely lucid to me
Stay PutMessage #528 - 02/20/09 12:51 AMReading Gerald Celente's forecast, for 2009, I found one of the predictions that he made eerily reminiscent of what one of the posters had said in here some weeks back. Celente predicts, among other things, that there will be a tax revolt across the nation where people will stop paying their taxes along with their other bills so as to put food on the table. The guy who came to this board some weeks ago, showed us his youtube video where he was no longer paying his credit card debt, so that he could buy the essentials for the coming onslaught ahead. This guy was eviscerated by most of the people in here who are still delusionally sitting on their high horses. Your false pretenses and pompous mentalities will not feed any of you or your families. Those of you who have viciously attacked us "Nay Sayers" are going to either starve, or find yourselves migrating from one government hand out to the next. You people will be doing this for the next ten to fifteen years. So all of you people who think you know so much more, better have a really good pair of traveling shoes.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:05:50 GMT -5
BGA4444Message #529 - 02/20/09 12:30 PMStay I agree the ones who are about to have the most difficult time are the ones who have been living highest on the hog. So enjoy the things you can not afford you wont have them much long The song by Alabama " The stock market fell but we were so poor we couldn't tell". Most of us will not be effected by what's happening-week to week people will always be week to week. Hey a little side note the world's banks including the US's are so leveraged that we can not give them enough money to save them! To bad die bad banks die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BGA4444Message #530 - 02/20/09 06:39 PMHey any more depression believers yet? Don't worry if you don't believe me now you will!!!
bashstpaulMessage #531 - 02/20/09 07:00 PMIs it a depression because the Market is in free fall due to worries that the banks aren't going to get all the money still left in our pockets?
Stay PutMessage #532 - 02/20/09 08:56 PMbashstpaul, go look up The Trends Research Institute, and Gerald Celente. Then come back and give us your input.
BGA4444Message #533 - 02/20/09 09:21 PMHey stay the correlation between now and 1929 are absolutely incredible. It is like it is d·j· vu all over again!
Stay PutMessage #534 - 02/21/09 03:23 AMdeja who? Actually, BGA, it's far worse.
Stay PutMessage #535 - 02/21/09 04:30 AM [www.prisonplanet.com/celente-predicts-revolution-food-riots-tax-rebellions-by-2012.html] Celente Predicts Revolution, Food Riots, Tax Rebellions By 2012
Trend forecaster, renowned for being accurate in the past, says that America will cease to be a developed nation within 4 years, crisis will be ·worse than the great depression·
Paul Joseph Watson
[prisonplanet.com/] Prison Planet.com
Thursday, November 13, 2008
The man who predicted the 1987 stock market crash and the fall of the Soviet Union is now forecasting revolution in America, food riots and tax rebellions - all within four years, while cautioning that putting food on the table will be a more pressing concern than buying Christmas gifts by 2012.
Gerald Celente, the CEO of [www.trendsresearch.com/] Trends Research Institute, is renowned for his accuracy in predicting future world and economic events, which will send a chill down your spine considering what he told Fox News this week.
Celente says that by 2012 America will become an undeveloped nation, that there will be a revolution marked by food riots, squatter rebellions, tax revolts and job marches, and that holidays will be more about obtaining food, not gifts.
(ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW)
[www.prisonplanet.tv/subscribe_holiday.html] 
·We·re going to see the end of the retail Christmas·.we·re going to see a fundamental shift take place·.putting food on the table is going to be more important that putting gifts under the Christmas tree,· said Celente, adding that the situation would be ·worse than the great depression·.
·America·s going to go through a transition the likes of which no one is prepared for,· said Celente, noting that people·s refusal to acknowledge that America was even in a recession highlights how big a problem denial is in being ready for the true scale of the crisis.
Watch the clip.
Celente, who successfully predicted the 1997 Asian Currency Crisis, the subprime mortgage collapse and the massive devaluation of the U.S. dollar,[www.upi.com/Business_News/2007/11/19/Forecast_US_dollar_could_plunge_90_pct/UPI-48761195499806/] told UPI in November last year that the following year would be known as ·The Panic of 2008,· adding that ·giants (would) tumble to their deaths,· which is exactly what we have witnessed with the collapse of Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns and others. He also said that the dollar would eventually be devalued by as much as 90 per cent.
The consequence of what we have seen unfold this year would lead to a lowering in living standards, Celente predicted a year ago, which is also being borne out by [www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=75273§ionid=3510203] plummeting retail sales figures.
The prospect of revolution was a concept echoed by a [www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/09/frontpagenews.news] British Ministry of Defence report last year, which predicted that within 30 years, the growing gap between the super rich and the middle class, along with an urban underclass threatening social order would mean, ·The world·s middle classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest,· and that, ·The middle classes could become a revolutionary class.·
Stay PutMessage #536 - 02/21/09 04:31 AM
Celente, who successfully predicted the 1997 Asian Currency Crisis, the subprime mortgage collapse and the massive devaluation of the U.S. dollar,[www.upi.com/Business_News/2007/11/19/Forecast_US_dollar_could_plunge_90_pct/UPI-48761195499806/] told UPI in November last year that the following year would be known as ·The Panic of 2008,· adding that ·giants (would) tumble to their deaths,· which is exactly what we have witnessed with the collapse of Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns and others. He also said that the dollar would eventually be devalued by as much as 90 per cent.
The consequence of what we have seen unfold this year would lead to a lowering in living standards, Celente predicted a year ago, which is also being borne out by [www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=75273§ionid=3510203] plummeting retail sales figures.
The prospect of revolution was a concept echoed by a [www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/09/frontpagenews.news] British Ministry of Defence report last year, which predicted that within 30 years, the growing gap between the super rich and the middle class, along with an urban underclass threatening social order would mean, ·The world·s middle classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest,· and that, ·The middle classes could become a revolutionary class.·
In a [www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1485&category=Environment] separate recent interview, Celente went further on the subject of revolution in America.
·There will be a revolution in this country,· he said. ·It·s not going to come yet, but it·s going to come down the line and we·re going to see a third party and this was the catalyst for it: the takeover of Washington, D. C., in broad daylight by Wall Street in this bloodless coup. And it will happen as conditions continue to worsen.·
·The first thing to do is organize with tax revolts. That·s going to be the big one because people can·t afford to pay more school tax, property tax, any kind of tax. You·re going to start seeing those kinds of protests start to develop.·
·It·s going to be very bleak. Very sad. And there is going to be a lot of homeless, the likes of which we have never seen before. Tent cities are already sprouting up around the country and we·re going to see many more.·
·We·re going to start seeing huge areas of vacant real estate and squatters living in them as well. It·s going to be a picture the likes of which Americans are not going to be used to. It·s going to come as a shock and with it, there·s going to be a lot of crime. And the crime is going to be a lot worse than it was before because in the last 1929 Depression, people·s minds weren·t wrecked on all these modern drugs · over-the-counter drugs, or crystal meth or whatever it might be. So, you have a huge underclass of very desperate people with their minds chemically blown beyond anybody·s comprehension.·
[georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/11/top-trend-forecaster-says-were-going-to.html] The George Washington blog has compiled a list of quotes attesting to Celente·s accuracy as a trend forecaster.
·When CNN wants to know about the Top Trends, we ask Gerald Celente.·
· CNN Headline News
·A network of 25 experts whose range of specialties would rival many university faculties.·
· The Economist
·Gerald Celente has a knack for getting the zeitgeist right.·
· USA Today
·There·s not a better trend forecaster than Gerald Celente. The man knows what he·s talking about.·
- CNBC
·Those who take their predictions seriously · consider the Trends Research Institute.·
· The Wall Street Journal
·Gerald Celente is always ahead of the curve on trends and uncannily on the mark · he·s one of the most accurate forecasters around.·
· The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
·Mr. Celente tracks the world·s social, economic and business trends for corporate clients.·
· The New York Times
·Mr. Celente is a very intelligent guy. We are able to learn about trends from an authority.·
· 48 Hours, CBS News
·Gerald Celente has a solid track record. He has predicted everything from the 1987 stock market crash and the demise of the Soviet Union to green marketing and corporate downsizing.·
· The Detroit News
·Gerald Celente forecast the 1987 stock market crash, ·green marketing,· and the boom in gourmet coffees.·
· Chicago Tribune
·The Trends Research Institute is the Standard and Poors of Popular Culture.·
· The Los A
Stay PutMessage #537 - 02/21/09 04:35 AM
·The Trends Research Institute is the Standard and Poors of Popular Culture.·
· The Los Angeles Times
·If Nostradamus were alive today, he·d have a hard time keeping up with Gerald Celente.·
· New York Post
So there you have it - hardly a nutjob conspiracy theorist blowhard now is he? The price of not heeding his warnings will be far greater than the cost of preparing for the future now. Storable food and gold are two good places to make a start.
ARMY 1971Message #539 - 02/21/09 08:32 AMHey if we are in a depression it sure is a pretty nice one! Everywhere I go there are cars on every street, people talking on cell phones or staying at home watching their big screen tvs. A mini recession, but no depression. When Jimmy I will never lie to you was our leader the inflation rate was 21%, unemployment was 12 and I had a first mortgage of 18% interest! This BS is brought on by the media and the Bamster, you know the hope and change guy, the one that never has done a thing in his life and now he is your president. They have to make you believe their lies so that this guys does not fail. He can't fail, could you imagine the racial outrage if he were to be blasted the way Bush was for 8 years? So sit back enjoy pay for view on you big screen tv, talk and text on you cell at $100 per month, drive everywhere and anywhere with gas at over $2.00 a gallon, eat out 5 times a week, send your kid to dance, karate, baseball camp, make plans to visit Disneyworld or a cruise, and keep telling yourself how tough you got it. But just don't say it in front of to many people because they remember the great depression and the recession of the late 70s and early 80s. And you will look like the knucklehead wimp that you are.
Stay PutMessage #540 - 02/21/09 03:11 PMHaving served in the Marines, prior to entering college, it doesn't surprise me to read an "Army" response such as you wrote. Unlike the Marines, however, the Army always did leave their dead and wounded behind. So, when you do finally have your own little epiphany, and come to grips with the reality of our economy actually being in a protracted depression, go out and find your nearest Marine because your Army buddies have long since left you to fend for yourself.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:06:43 GMT -5
ButMonkeyMessage #541 - 02/21/09 04:27 PMFirst all companies that have moved out of the land of the U.S. for cheep labor should not be selling their goods in the U.S.. Second lobbyist should be made illegal 100%. Third all trade polices should be voted on by the American people once a year. Fourth no bail outs at all.
The RevenantMessage #542 - 02/21/09 05:22 PMWe are not in a depression. We are in the opening stages of The Collapse. The article said it already-our debt comes out to 36,000 dollars per person in this nation. Factor in elderly, children, and minorities that expect everything for free and will never pay a dime back into the system; and that number has got to be @ 300,000 per white taxpayer. I don't have that kind of cash; 95% of whites don't. We're going down guys; and history shows that when we hit rock bottom the killing starts. You really believe that all the parasites that want FREE: food, medical, school, homes, groceries, wic, baby delivery, etc,etc,etc,etc, won't get violent when the faucet runs dry(and it will run dry)? You really believe that the taxpayers that have been powdering these freeloader's rear-ends won't respond with even more violence when the hand that feeds(whether we wanted to or not) is firmly chomped by these scumbags? Do you really believe Obama can do anything to stave of such an escalation?
traelin0Message #543 - 02/21/09 05:43 PMHaving served in the Marines, prior to entering college, it doesn't surprise me to read an "Army" response such as you wrote. Unlike the Marines, however, the Army always did leave their dead and wounded behind. So, when you do finally have your own little epiphany, and come to grips with the reality of our economy actually being in a protracted depression, go out and find your nearest Marine because your Army buddies have long since left you to fend for yourself. You know, I agree with a lot of your posts (e.g., Gerald Celente), but I find this post to be over the top and offensive to say the least. Just because one soldier disagrees with you does not mean all soldiers are full of it or cowards.
ComoKateMessage #544 - 02/21/09 06:30 PMFactor in elderly, children, and minorities that expect everything for free and will never pay a dime back into the system; and that number has got to be @ 300,000 per white taxpayer... Whoa. I don't want to be in a society that would kick it's elderly and children to the curb. Children did not ask to be born and the elderly did not ask to get old and feeble. Once you were a child and apparently someone fed you; I doubt you purchased your own food and medical care. The elderly have been hit with employers that have been allowed to default on their pensions plans ( for which many worked for their entire lives, and paid into the tax system the entire time as well). For those that invested into their own retirement plans, we have seen what Wall Street corruption and deregulation has done to those savings; down 50% in value and counting. What are the elderly to do when they lose their pension funded insurance,that they worked for their entire lives? Private insurance companies refuse to give policies to people with existing health conditions, which the majority of elderly have, or price the policies so high that no one can afford them. Do we let our parents and grandparents just die?? Are you honestly suggesting this? Those who made this mess would like nothing more than to have all of us point the finger at each other to prevent us from looking up, and seeing, where the problem began/exists.
brotherLouMessage #545 - 02/21/09 06:42 PMSEE, IT HASN'T WORKED! The biggest stumbling block on the road to recovery is GOP dis-ingenuity. Their dissemination of misleading information is the problem. People forget, they "want him to fail!!!" The GOP want the Obama administration to do so miserably over the next 2 years that people will forget who was steering the tanker over the previous 8 years, and vote them back into a majority. It's a slim chance but their only one, short term. They don't care about the millions of people who will be hurt by an APPARENT Obama failure. Their biggest trick is to refuse to distinguish between spending to stimulate greater returns, (INVESTMENT!), and spending which is for short term consumption. Even the latter, consumption, allows the merchants to move decaying inventory and generate liquidity which results in a multiplier effect. But even investment can be broken down into smaller categories: men, machines, product and plant. Let's rearrange these 4 categories into the two yielding immediate returns: Men (jobs) and product (output); and two yielding longer term sustainability: Machines (entailing manufacturing as well), and plant (which attacks decay and entails modernization as well). Note that the two also entail jobs, jobs, jobs, lots of them, and sustainable. But the GOP insists of placing one generic criticism, SPENDING, on all the foregoing forms of expenditure. No, they're not dumb, so what IS their strategy? Well in boom time this kind of spending would see an immediate, even disastrously inflationary expansion of the economy. The bust would be inevitable. Done judiciously, as did Clinton and Greenspan, it would usher in a period of controlled growth, very unlike the period of under-regulated uncontrolled expansion that preceded our present dilemma. In a time of rapid recession however, even though this activity is exerting positive pressure on the economy it is bound to be outweighed by the downward inertia of the deflationary cycle. Your brakes are working but you're going too fast and the hill is too steep. Even though you are slowing down your descent you are still going downwards, though not as fast. The GOP are betting their all on the good chance that things will still be bad enough at election time in 2 years, coupled with a well timed stroke of market manipulation, for them to say, " SEE, IT HASN'T WORKED!"
schrizoMessage #546 - 02/21/09 07:13 PM"Charity for all and malice towards none." Words of Lincoln after the Civil war ended. With the redneck posts blaming all on the old and poor, don't forget the greatest of all "tax suckers" the US military. And don't forget those on disablility who could do some kind of work rather than sit at home watching Oprah. I have a freind who likes to bash the welfare moms and then draws disability for his knee. I don't like system parasites either but we must find work for them even if its picking up litter. We must stop supporting failure and it should start at the top, not the bottom. How about you bash the bankers instead of the elderly.
BGA4444Message #547 - 02/21/09 07:53 PMBrother lou you are correct the GOP's only chance to get back in is to see Obama fall flat on his face. They have already begun to pull all their money out of the stock market making it fall further. Big business will continue to lay off and will accelerate this to get their party of choice back in. If Obama wants to stay for four more he better come up with some jobs in a hurry. He better tariff Chinese goods and give the money in tax credits to big industry to level the playing field. He needs to do something big, quick, that will work. If not he will be four and out. I tell you if he gave a 50% tax credit to do home improvement- any home improvement the results would be immediate all over the country and it would pay for itself. He better start thinking like a man instead of a politician. The Chinese are trying to kill us anyway to heck with them!!!!!!!!!!
The RevenantMessage #548 - 02/21/09 07:53 PMDid I say that the elderly and children were to be kicked to the curb? Please don't fill in the blanks you can't comprehend with made up garbage. Simply put-and I'll write this slowly so it will sink in- they will not be paying back the debt. As a matter of fact my whole previous post had nothing to do with kicking anyone to the curb; your own guilty conscience came up with that one. Do you need to be kicked to the curb? Maybe so... My point was that the PAYING portion of our country will have to shoulder the burden of the non-paying. Some of them can't help it (disabled, elderly, children, etc)and I take no issue with them. Others don't pay but should (illegals, non-taxpaying types that are only in this nation for free handouts) and they would be shown the door if we had any sense. Don't put words in my mouth---please
brotherLouMessage #549 - 02/21/09 07:58 PMWe also need to distinguish between the admirable calls for morality and fair play, and the exigencies of pragmatism, or to put it another way, if you don't save the body, you won't have time to save the soul. In this case we are talking about the body and soul of the American economy. Politics makes strange bed-fellows and nowhere is that more evident than in the dichotomy between the bible-belt religious right and the plundering wall street free-market pirates. On the one hand for example you have the people who refuse to allow even embryos due to be flushed down the drain to be used in saving lives, on the other hand in the same party you get the people berating the octuplet mom for refusing to thin out the herd when she realized that all 6 of the implanted embryos were going to survive, and had increased into 8 separate lives.
ComoKateMessage #550 - 02/21/09 08:59 PMSimply put-and I'll write this slowly so it will sink in-they will not be paying back the debt. I have an IQ in the upper 4% so, thanks, but even if you have to type your posts *verrry slooowly*, the pace of my reading, and comprehension skills, remain the same ( luckily...). Your post would almost be comical if it were not so disturbingly selfish and uncaring. The elderly have *already* paid into the system and, unless you have discovered the fountain of youth or get shot for being so obnoxious, you will find yourself in that category as well. *ALL* of the children in the US will be paying back the enormous debt for many years to come; in fact so will *their* children. You seem to have a lot of hate built up inside yourself since it's spilling over on some of the most vulnerable members of our society. Where is your rage for the CEO's who 's salaries are 160-340 times the average US worker's salary? As Jim Jubak pointed out, in Europe the average CEO's salary caps at about 12 times, in Japan about 10 times the average worker's salary. Where is your rage towards over 100 of the biggest US companies that offshored their headquarters to evade US taxation, thereby costing US taxpayers ( the consumers of their products) over 100 BILLION dollars *per year* in lost tax revenue? A lot of people are angry right now, but give careful consideration to whom your target should be.
bashstpaulMessage #551 - 02/21/09 09:09 PMStay Put, I don't need to use only your information or have your interpretation of it to comment. Or do you feel you own this website? But back to the point rather than making invalid comments about whether a poster has a right to be here. Fact is, we are heading downhill, but a trend is not a prediction and a prediction is not fact. Assuming that consumer spending is 50 - 72% (highest I've read) of the economy, and assuming (I think rightly) that people who are afraid they might lose their jobs will spend less of their disposable income, then the perception you are promulgating is the very thing that is continuing and promoting the downward spiral. My impression is that you are a naysayer. If a plan is too detailed, it's too complex, if it isn't too complex, it lacks detail, if we are bailing out the banks we should be bailing out the homeowners, if we bail out the homeowners we should be bailing out the banks (which is your latest complaint I take it because you responded to my post about that very thing). If you want to respond to a point I make, please do so, but if you want to somehow "win" by trying to say who gets to post and who doesn't then I don't have time for you.
BGA4444Message #552 - 02/21/09 09:18 PMOk children lets just agree to disagree! lol
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:07:35 GMT -5
schrizoMessage #553 - 02/21/09 11:56 PMThe scariest part of this is the idea that doing nothing is the worst thing we could do. It certainly looks as if we have no idea of where we are and so don't know the way back home. And what is home?? It is changing and it will not look like the present. How do we envision an economy with "not enough work?" That is a frightening thought and likely the reality. The more efficient we become the less need for a worker. Even something as simple as having someone pump your gas would create work. We had service station attendants that washed your windows and pumped your gas even in the mid 70's. We had real people answer phones at businesses. What in the heck are all the unemployed going to do?? Are we willing to give up a little extra money to have a boy carry your groceries to the car?? Remember when there was this big fear about computers taking over jobs?? Remember when we built cars designed to fail to keep the industry going?? I think we will need to go backwards to get home and give up some of the labor saving technologies. I just don't see jobs being created with greater technologies. When someone tells you to "get lost", you won't be able to soon. Ideas?? What kind of work do you see for the future?
BGA4444Message #554 - 02/22/09 06:05 PMDeflation is the current name of the game. People are working for less everywhere just to keep working. The recent protest of over 100,000 in Ireland is further proof of how bad and how worldwide this thing is. The financial institutions have been sticking it to us for years. How about Santelli raising hell about helping homeowners facing foreclosure while banks facing bankruptcy get billions to make more bad loans, no problem. The problems facing the world are being compounded by incompetent people who don't have a clue as what to do.
Stay PutMessage #555 - 02/22/09 10:46 PMI started telling people to stock up on canned and dried goods, some months ago, so that they would not get caught without food when the run on the supermarkets took place. Again, last night, while speaking with a family acquaintance, I shared the same story and advice. This is all self serving on my part, as for each person who is heeding my warnings, is one less person that I have to be concerned about shooting should the worst case scenario unfolds. Our current situation is not even about whether the crash will happen or not, but rather when and how. Will it be a protracted decline (which I personally hope for), and thereby allowing even more people to stock up their pantries/garages, or will the bottom just fall out from under us one day without any warning. Should the latter happen, I believe that more than just some isolated pockets of riots will occur. A full blown, unannounced crash would, I believe, see massive rioting unfold throughout this country. I think in that event, we would for the first time see UN forces on U.S. soil. I pray for, what could even possibly be considered the "best case scenario", in this choice of nightmares.
Stay PutMessage #557 - 02/22/09 11:24 PMI haven't stopped working.
traelin0Message #558 - 02/22/09 11:25 PMI think in that event, we would for the first time see UN forces on U.S. soil. They won't be welcome, at least not by my family.
Stay PutMessage #559 - 02/22/09 11:30 PMtraelinO, I don't think we would have any say in the matter, nor would they care that they were not welcomed by most Americans. It would just happen without so much as a how do you do. Scary thought, I know, but very true.
itstippyMessage #560 - 02/22/09 11:58 PMWhat's this talk about shooting people? Are hordes of paunchy, middle-aged, bankrupt baby boomers going to assault our homes, trying to sack and loot our stashes of canned goods? Get a grip. No one in this country will be without food, shelter, water, or clothing. This is an economic depression, not an invasion from Mars. The term "blood in the streets" is a figure of speech used to describe bleeding portfolios and massive investor capitulation. If you honestly think that U.N. troops will be deployed on U.S. soil to maintain order you should invest in private security and large-scale logistics companies that contract with the Defense Department.
ocd2001Message #561 - 02/23/09 12:45 AMSanteli just barley touch it. ITS THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!!! As long as we have politicians getting greased (lobbying) to pass laws and spending like there's no tomorrow. Oh i am sorry there is none right now. Remember we are in uncharted waters, so skip the gold get the can foods, guns and bullets.
schrizoMessage #563 - 02/23/09 01:27 AMOK, I hope I have not fed into the paranoia that is unraveling here. I am old enough to remember 74 then 81 then 90 then 2000. In 2000 many were buying generators and storing fuel and water for the collapse of the computers not updating for the year 2000. You know how that turned out and there are still generators at every garage sale on the block. A more logical "fear" scenario would be if we default on our debt and those we owe money to come collecting the properties backed by bad mortgages. There would be war as we defend our homeland. And as we use up tanks and planes the US retools to make more putting people back to work. It is our military that is really our greatest asset and most likely controlled by Also, those willing to take to the streets to riot have little to defend. It is people my age who go to the banks to take out life savings that have the most to lose. We have planned on being self supportive and to think it may not work out like we prepared is scary. And with the talk of reducing SS payments we could find a lot of the baby boomers living with their children. Keep the faith people.
reauchMessage #564 - 02/23/09 01:42 AMI started telling people to stock up on canned and dried goods, some months ago, so that they would not get caught without food when the run on the supermarkets took place. Again, last night, while speaking with a family acquaintance, I shared the same story and advice. This is all self serving on my part, as for each person who is heeding my warnings, is one less person that I have to be concerned about shooting should the worst case scenario unfolds. Good advice. What's this talk about shooting people? Are hordes of paunchy, middle-aged, bankrupt baby boomers going to assault our homes, trying to sack and loot our stashes of canned goods? Get a grip. No one in this country will be without food, shelter, water, or clothing. This is an economic depression, not an invasion from Mars. Look up pictures from the early thirties, showing blocks long lines of hard working Americans waiting in line for soup. Now picture EVERYONE between the ages of 17 and 30, waiting as patiently for some food , shelter, water or clothing. Generators don't work without fuel. People, generally, panic when things change. Cold and/or hungry humans can be unpredictable and dangerous.
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:08:28 GMT -5
reauchMessage #565 - 02/23/09 02:00 AMIf you honestly think that U.N. troops will be deployed on U.S. soil to maintain order you should invest in private security and large-scale logistics companies that contract with the Defense Department. Or........we could just invest in each other 
itstippyMessage #566 - 02/23/09 02:21 AMThis country has no problem providing necessities like food, water, clothing, and shelter to anyone who needs it. This is not 1930. There's enough "fat" in our national standard of living to cut consumption in half with no appreciable discomfort. There is no "dust bowl" underway to ruin the Nation's agriculture. We have a superb food and water production and distribution system. We currently pay farmers to NOT grow food. We have acres of vacant livable structures. We use water to grow artichokes, run waterparks, grow suburban lawns, and wash cars. There are enough unused clothes sitting in suburban closets to last the entire population a dozen years. We have enough fuel to heat 3,000 square foot homes, drive and fly wherever we want to, and illuminate strip malls to the point that they're visible from outer space. You will not have to shoot desperate hobos. Western Civilization will not end in your lifetime. No one is going to invade our homeland, requiring you to sniper them from rooftops. The whole idea is ludicrous. It's like some video game or End-Of-The-World disaster movie.
reauchMessage #568 - 02/23/09 02:46 AMThis country has no problem providing necessities like food, water, clothing, and shelter to anyone who needs it. This is not 1930. There's enough "fat" in our national standard of living to cut consumption in half with no appreciable discomfort. There is no "dust bowl" underway to ruin the Nation's agriculture. We have a superb food and water production and distribution system. We currently pay farmers to NOT grow food. We have acres of vacant livable structures. We use water to grow artichokes, run waterparks, grow suburban lawns, and wash cars. There are enough unused clothes sitting in suburban closets to last the entire population a dozen years. We have enough fuel to heat 3,000 square foot homes, drive and fly wherever we want to, and illuminate strip malls to the point that they're visible from outer space. Sans the illumination and heat observations..........this could have been written by any Roman Emperor..........But we are better than that. You will not have to shoot desperate hobos. Western Civilization will not end in your lifetime. No one is going to invade our homeland, requiring you to sniper them from rooftops. The whole idea is ludicrous. It's like some video game or End-Of-The-World disaster movie. From your lips to Cesar's ears
itstippyMessage #569 - 02/23/09 02:48 AMRight now my buddy Lenny has enough shelled corn in his grain bins to feed thousands of head of beef & dairy cattle for a year. I suppose I'd be over at his facility, helping him grind corn and load it into the trucks for use in the city as tortilla flour instead of animal feed. The Dept of Agriculture wouldn't care, at that point.
ComoKateMessage #570 - 02/23/09 02:49 AMHistory does tend to repeat itself. Food riots have been a fact througout history. We are currently at maximum production for food supplies, yet the world's population continues to increase, due mainly to people living twice as long as they used to ( birth rates have actually remained relatively the same). Russia experienced severe food shortages and hardships prior to ( and likely causing) the Russian Revolution: www.garethjones.org/soviet_articles/hearst2.htm [ query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A07E3DF1738E033A25752C2A9649C946697D6CF] query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A07E3DF1738E033A257http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2807/index.html Sweden too ( they later adopted a democratic/socialist government): [ query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9902E6D91030E733A25755C1A9679C946297D6CF] query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9902E6D91030E733A257http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C00EEDB1E30E132A257http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B07E0D91139E13ABC49http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/CouldWeReallyRunOutOhttp://www.theendoffood.com/ Food shortages are a very real possibility in the future, and historically people do not behave well during them.
reauchMessage #571 - 02/23/09 03:23 AMRight now my buddy Lenny has enough shelled corn in his grain bins to feed thousands of head of beef & dairy cattle for a year A whole year worth of food.......for enough cattle ....to feed 1/1000 of the US population for a day.....I feel much better.
BGA4444Message #572 - 02/23/09 07:08 PMAS the market approaches 7000 is there anyone who is not convinced to get out now! You thought at every low this is it up is the only way left to go. So far you have been wrong at 10000,9000,8000, and now 7000. I can only help those who can help themselves. Do not listen to another stock broker lie to you and tell you this is it. This is not it. The world financial markets are falling and failing right before your eyes get out now and save your money. In the next 60 days there will be a 1000 point correction as countries worldwide go insolvent. Save your money get out today!!!!!!!!!!!!
BGA4444Message #574 - 02/23/09 08:55 PMHey DJ these banks were leveraged @ 50/1 as everything continues to unravel more and more money will be needed. It is just better to let the insolvent banks collapse or they will take us all down with them! Somebody in Washington better wake up!
JROBI27102002Message #575 - 02/23/09 09:16 PMGET OFF THE POT: YOU MADE YOUR POINT, WE ARE IN A BAD SITUATION.
BGA4444Message #576 - 02/23/09 09:30 PMSo JR lets hear your idea to save the planet!!
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:09:20 GMT -5
FinaldriveMessage #577 - 02/23/09 09:59 PMBG, I am getting ready to get into this market with both feet, even though I believe you have 50% chance of being correct. If the market returns in ten years I will be very wealthy. If the whole system collapses as you say it will......dirt will have more value than money. So I can't lose. We have a large amount of items to barter with, if money is no longer of value. Before you start I am prepared. I own a farm, my partner and I own a grocery store, my partner owns a gas station /sporting goods establishment(and we have a plan with already purchased provisions). I think we are prepared to give our families the best chance of surviving.
51panheadMessage #578 - 02/23/09 10:33 PMYou best be investin in an assault rifle
Revenue CoachMessage #579 - 02/23/09 11:00 PMFocus, not fear.......... until WE FIX THE BANKS, there is not one other industry, idea or fragmented additional use of our government's energy that will matter; not housing, not autos , not Medicaid, not new drinking water programs (any of these being important) we have to FOCUS on the most important thing, then we can move to the second most critical item- EMPLOYMENT/ its basic Economics 101 - until financial institutions are considered secure and until we have active lending - there is not anything else that matters! N O T H I N G............ WE NEED FOCUS - Mr. President, PLEASE FIX THE BANKS, and I don't mean nationalizing them/ go back to the RTC I that I lived through and transacted in and PLEASE fix the banks. PS: Could you please ask Mr. Geithner to stop all of his other "important meetings" on so many various topics it makes my head spins, SO HE CAN attend the banking meetings, the ONLY meetings that count are the one to FIX THE BANKS!
Stay PutMessage #580 - 02/23/09 11:21 PMRevenue, your assumption that it all revolves around fixing the banks would be a valid one "if" the banks could be fixed. Let me put it in these terms. Take a reckless driver who has, by his very driving habits, caused a high speed accident with multiple vehicles/victims. What's left are multiple clumps of mangled metal and plastic that use to be cars and trucks. Any hard core/crooked insurance adjuster, after viewing the total carnage, would have no choice but to write this off as a total loss. And yet, our government is by their smoke and mirrors tactics trying to convince enough idiots that there is a way to salvage all of this total carnage, even though they know that it is impossible. Even our crooked insurance adjuster understands that it would cost 100x's more to try to fix that mangled metal back into a drivable vehicle, than to just let it be taken to the scrap yard. There is no way to "fix our banks". The sooner that you realize this, the sooner you might just start getting yourself and your family prepared for what is about to happen. Don't wait! Get yourself ready for a 10 - 15 year all out Depression.
Revenue CoachMessage #581 - 02/23/09 11:30 PMStay Put: well, removing the toxic assets to auction does indeed fix the banks, though you are welcome to feel differently, you could say I have had experience in this at a global level for decades, the lack of focus is truly the key issue
ComoKateMessage #582 - 02/23/09 11:43 PMFix the banks? Are you kidding me? Who "broke" the banks?? Ahh yes; it was the bankers! Credit Unions have , for the most part, remained very stable due to the fact that they did not exploit their customers. You can do *everything* at a credit union, that you can at a bank, without getting jerked around till you lose your shirt. You know who wants to save the banks? Bankers.... How about the vast majority of the rest of us? Stop off shoring our jobs and we'll be able to pay our mortgages, purchase cars, and pay our health care premiums. I'm completely disgusted at the word play going on such as "injecting capital into the banking system". Oh Please! Injecting? Save the drama for the operating rooms. The wealthy's greed brought us to this; now they are having tantrums that they too might feel the pain. We always have the options of by-passing banks for alternative lending institutions and individuals. Let's look out for "Main Street" since "Wall Street" has proven it's indifference to our nation as a whole, as well as to individual Americans.
Stay PutMessage #583 - 02/24/09 12:40 AMRevenue, I must say that I'm a little curious. You say that you have had experience in this for several decades. This world wide melt down is a relatively new phenomenon, by anyone's standards, so where exactly did you gain all of your experience in all of this? I myself am a commercial loan broker, having dealt with hundreds of lending institutions on every continent since 1992, and have listened to all of my providers from Zurich to Hong Kong. They have all stated how dire our situation actually is, and that there is no "real fix". However, you obviously have much more information, so please, explain to this ignorant soul just how we can actually fix the banks. Please be as specific as humanly possible, given my limitations and all.
Veteran_LenderMessage #584 - 02/24/09 12:52 AMI'm listening too... riddle me this Revenue... if banks borrowed the funds to lend 100% in the first place and see those loans removed and auctions for 5-10%... how are they "cured" when still owing the original capital?
Stay PutMessage #585 - 02/24/09 12:59 AMCome on Revenue. This isn't jeopardy. You are not required to phrase your answer as a question. Just give us the answer.
jreaMessage #586 - 02/24/09 01:19 AMI'm a responsible one. Put WAY more than 20% down on my house in 1999. Refi'd only to take advantage of lowering rates over the years. Like I was told by the experts, pumped everything into 401k's. And unlike the experts everything there in CD's. No stock market. I pulled out of that in 1999, it was clearly unsustainable even then. Now, the house is essentially worth zero as no one is buying. There are $1MM+ houses in foreclosure sales at $600k in my neighborhood that aren't moving. I'm unemployed with no realistic expectation of finding a job. I need my 401k money, but good soldier that I was I can't get it out without paying excess taxes and penalties. Unemployment? What a joke. Won't pay nearly enough to pay the bills. Two kids headed for college if society survives. Let it all collapse. Stop trying to save thieving lenders and stupid borrowers. What's the worst (actually best) that can happen? EVERYONE goes into default. They gonna repossess all our houses? Not a chance. Let it collapse. There aren't enough sheriffs to kick us all out. Who loses? The people invested in mortgages. The people with money. To he!! with them. I look gleefully every time the market drops. At 2% per day, it will all be over in less than two months.
ASKMessage #587 - 02/24/09 01:22 AMRevenue, I focused on fixing the banks and nothing happened. I Fear they are unfixable, so I will focus on that for a while. removing the toxic assets to auction does indeed fix the banks Now I guess I will focus on everyone standing in line, to purchase toxic assets.
Stay PutMessage #588 - 02/24/09 01:34 AMjrea, when you refinanced your house for those better rates, was it a fixed or ARM? Also, ask your tax advisor if you could transfer your CD's over to pay off your mortgage, and if there are any current loopholes that would allow you to do so without excessive tax penalties. It's not my area, so do ask your tax advisor for the skinny.
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:10:13 GMT -5
merinidahoMessage #589 - 02/24/09 06:07 AMWhat caused the crash of 29? Crooked BKnrs! Grand dad sold his farm, put the money in they bk, before he could get the paper closed on his bigger farm ,the Bk closed his DOOR" and went south. Sure would like to know the name of the BKnrs! Oh MY, THEIR Back! Even got their Big fat grubby hands out.Now the auto makers oh my/" Billions for the bankers & debts for the people. " 12.5 TRILLION $. How many years will it take us to pay this Bull off? Next election or before "VOTE", call ,or get our Policy makers out of the feed pen! Look around and see how many are getting caught up to> WOW. CROOKS come in all forms! AMEN/ some one is right, buy food!
Use YourHeadMessage #590 - 02/24/09 06:14 AMYou best be investin in an assault rifle If you can even find one to purchase! Good luck! There is no way to "fix our banks". The sooner that you realize this, the sooner you might just start getting yourself and your family prepared for what is about to happen. Don't wait! Get yourself ready for a 10 - 15 year all out Depression. Stay Put, if you were a "stock" my friend, I'd be investing my money in you! You are one of the few who gets it. I just posted this link in another thread but I feel it's relevant to this discussion too ... the European Banking System is on the verge of collapse: www.lewrockwell.com/north/north689.html
merinidahoMessage #591 - 02/24/09 06:26 AMJust ask your selves ,Who do you really TRUST? You could set on your money and earn nothing. B=put into stock, 401K, savings , Cd's, IRA's, real estate, or what ever else you would trust. If our monetary system fails, what would you do? How well are you fixed? Do you have plenty of food? How will you protect it? What do you have to Barter? There are no trading post yet. Loom and gloom. But these are all possibilites. So far , Stalin was right, they could take our country over and not fire a SHOT. Think about it! "itstippy" Clean water might not be on that list, check into your community water systems. Do you know where it comes from? Yes we have had it way to much better off than others, but we also as a whole do a lot for other countries, and its people. How many others come to our aid when disaster strikes? Borrow us money,yes. Enough said. good night.
PROUDAMMessage #593 - 02/24/09 01:19 PMWELL I'LL TELL YOU ALL ONE THING IS FOR SURE! IF YOU THINK NEGATIVE THOUGHTS, YOU WILL PROBABLY DO NEGATIVE THINGS. VISE VERSA. THE ONE THING THIS COUNTRY HAS YET TO LEARN OR SHOULD I SAY HAS LOST TRACK OF,IS SELF PRESERVATION. AS LONG AS OUR GOVERMENT BELIEVES WE CAN TAKE CARE OF EVERYBODY ELSES PROBLEMS WE WILL ALWAYS WIND UP IN THE HOLE. IT'S KINDA LIKE HAVING YOUR FAMILY AND TRYING TO TAKE CARE OF OTHER ONES AT THE SAME TIME. SOONER OR LATER IT,S GONNA COME BACK AND BITE YOU IN THE BUTT! THERE IS ABSOUTELY NO COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON! WHERE,S ALL THE COMMON SENSE THINKING THAT OBAMA PROMISED? HA!! ONLY WORDS USED TOWARD POLITICAL GAIN. HANG ON TIGHT! BY ALL MEANS THINK POSITIVE!!! I KNOW IT'S HARD, BUT REMEMBER THE LITTLE TRAIN THAT SAID : I KNOW I CAN, I KNOW I CAN".
Falling Sky - NotMessage #594 - 02/24/09 01:45 PMOkay I had enough, this morning I told my wife to liquidate her IRA into all cash. The Dow is acting just as it did during the Great Depression and those that keep holding out hoping for a recovery are doomed. When the market rebounds you will have plenty of time to get back in. It doesn't take a lot of IQ to figure out its not going to jump up 7,000 points in a couple of days. To ProudAM, I admire your optimism but that little train left America many years ago. Believe in yourself but do not believe in your government or they will suck everything out of you. Our government has become corrupt and dysfunctional.
Reason_FreedomMessage #595 - 02/24/09 01:47 PMIF YOU THINK NEGATIVE THOUGHTS, YOU WILL PROBABLY DO NEGATIVE THINGS. VISE VERSA If I think I will win the lottery, will it happen more likely than me thinking I won't win? bad philosophy if you ask me. I agree with the rest of your comment though.
outaheresoonMessage #596 - 02/24/09 02:13 PMIF YOU THINK NEGATIVE THOUGHTS, YOU WILL PROBABLY DO NEGATIVE THINGS. VISE VERSA I've been thinking a lot of negative things after reading these posts so I'm flying to the Bahamas next week to buy a lot. That's positive isn't it?
KMANMessage #597 - 02/24/09 02:30 PMTo say we are in a depression is just another example of how out of touch wall street is with main street. I personally see people around me ( The Consumer ) spending the money that they are now saving due to the low cost of energy. They now have extra money to spend instead of putting it in there gas tank.
BGA4444Message #598 - 02/24/09 02:46 PMYeah K I have plenty of extra money to spend now that I am saving 36.00 a week on gas . Oh I just forgot my son got laid off and I took a 20% pay cut trying to survive this thing. You are delusional instead of spending everyone is saving for what we know is coming- harder times. The stimulus package is a tunicate for a body that is bleeding to death. The stimulus is a joke it might save a few jobs that were going to be cut at the state level. But it is creating no jobs no new industry the weirdest thing is people like you who thinks $36.00 a week or tax savings of $65.00 a month will help what a joke. We need millions of jobs yesterday not in a year or two. What a bunch of absolute idiots!! I almost give up trying to talk to you guys!
reverendbarbMessage #599 - 02/24/09 03:58 PMBGAA4444: Awww, please don't give up on us!! We're trying to understand - honest!! (just kidding!) Most of us DO understand the dire straits we are in - unfortunately.
BGA4444Message #600 - 02/24/09 07:10 PMHey Rev I know most do understand how bad it is and how bad it is going to get but, what really gets me the politicians don't have a clue what they are doing. If bad banks over leveraged are given more money they will do the same. I am so ashamed of our politicians they have sold out our country and to a man and pelosi are guilty of treason.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:11:05 GMT -5
reverendbarbMessage #601 - 02/24/09 07:32 PMCNBC is airing the "House of Cards" documentary again Wed (25 Feb) evening. It really is a good, understandable, succinct summary that covers much of what happened (as much as is possible in 2 hours, anyway) to create this meltdown. I didn't find it to be biased either - it points the finger at LOTS of people in all walks of life!
CountryoneMessage #602 - 02/24/09 07:58 PMThings might get bad where most people live, but I see little change for those of us that live in rural areas. I live in the country and have had my own garden for years while I hunt and fill my freezers with wild game like I always have. I live in minnesota so yes it gets cold but I burn wood to heat my house. I have more wood than I could ever burn. So I do feel sorry for most of you.
Use YourHeadMessage #603 - 02/24/09 08:31 PMCNBC is airing the "House of Cards" documentary again Wed (25 Feb) evening. Thanks for the heads up on this reverend.
jobo122Message #605 - 02/24/09 09:36 PMMake no mistake is the most overused phrase ever.
Stay PutMessage #606 - 02/24/09 11:13 PMEveryone can calm down now. Obama is going to speak tonight, and put everything right for all of America. Remember, he 'promised' us in his campaign speeches to put right America. We know that we can depend on his sound decision making process. His judgment is impeccable, and beyond reproach. I mean look at the stellar candidates that this man has chosen for various offices. To think of this man in charge of our country, excites me so much, it just gives me the vapors. NOT!!! I think that's how the southern expression goes. The best thing for everyone right now, is to start a stretching regiment. In this way you will be limber enough to kiss your a$$ goodbye.
schrizoMessage #607 - 02/25/09 01:17 AMThe thing about is if our president was to level with us, he may create panic. And what good is that?? And he is being encouraged to talk optimistically by people like Bill Clinton. If he can a lid on this, it buys time for a miracle or a reasoned way around our government being broke. If the people knew we were broke how would they react? If we could not pay the police who would keep order? It is important to buy time now and that is what we are doing. I am still working and business is good. Like to keep it that way. Lets hope for a miracle. They happen.
Stay PutMessage #609 - 02/25/09 05:03 AMThe thing about is if our president was to level with us, he may create panic. And what good is that?? And he is being encouraged to talk optimistically by people like Bill Clinton. If he can a lid on this, it buys time for a miracle or a reasoned way around our government being broke. If the people knew we were broke how would they react? If we could not pay the police who would keep order? It is important to buy time now and that is what we are doing. Oh, schrizo, where do I begin. First of all, if the president were to level with the American people, and calmly laid out an extensive plan of real aid and assistance for every American, throughout these troubled times ahead, panic would not grip this nation and start nation wide anarchy. It would instead, I believe, allow more Americans to seriously prepare for the onslaught to come while many still had their jobs. By listening to the counsel of traitors, like Bill Clinton who brought us NAFTA, that shipped our factories over seas, this depression will hit the majority of Americans like a ton of bricks, and your fears will then be justified, and it will allow the Dems to put their plan of socialism (police state) into full effect and force. This has been their agenda all along. They have sold our sovereignty to the highest bidder, and the bill has finally come due.
Stay PutMessage #610 - 02/25/09 05:08 AMIt is important to buy time now and that is what we are doing Buy time for what? For who?
BGA4444Message #611 - 02/25/09 02:37 PMIf we just buy a little more time maybe just maybe they can figure out what to do. All I heard from Obama is we are going to shoot a shotgun at all the problems. I hate to be the one to tell them but they need a 30-06 with a very high powered scope and try to pick these problems off one at a time. Obama has either set himself up to fail or he is truly the chosen one. Before that speech last night if he made things just a little better he would probably get re-elected. But now if things don't improve greatly it is four and out. The republicans needed him to fail some so they can get back in. Now average performance will cost him the next election. Remember when Carter won and didn't change things quickly enough Obama doesn't stand a chance.
reverendbarbMessage #612 - 02/25/09 03:17 PM if our president was to level with us, he may create panic. I agree. A large number of people would only understand a fraction of what happened, - it's a very complex "scheme" that went on - and probably would create a run on the banks. I don't think most people can handle the truth of this situation. AND people would be angrier than they already are - could be very dangerous.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:11:57 GMT -5
Stay PutMessage #613 - 02/25/09 03:54 PM I don't think most people can handle the truth of this situation. reverendbarb, who are you really? Jack Nicholson? I couldn't disagree with you more. People can always handle the truth as long as there is a course of action presented with it. If the pundants were to say, "The sky is falling, and we are all pretty much SOL", then yes, that would be both irresponsible and could very well cause panic. If, however, they were to make the same statement and follow it up with something like; "but we have a giant net in which we will catch the sky with", panic would not set in. Even if the net had no chance of working, it would pacify the masses in two ways, and thereby buy us the time it will actually take. 1. That our government is diligently working on the problems to come up with real solutions and, 2. They would not be destroying the 'hope' factor every American.
aomz123Message #614 - 02/25/09 03:54 PMI wonder if anyone has thought about the farmers? With the banks holding on to their wallets how do you think the farms are going to plant their crops, when they rely on borrowed money for operating capitol until their harvest. If there is no loans there will be no planting,no planting,no harvest. can anyone spell HUNGER!!!!
smallbusinessguyMessage #615 - 02/25/09 03:55 PMYou guys are nuts. Remember, socialism and communism are two completely different things. It seems whenever a pundit in the media labels something as socialist, all of you redneck right wing retards go screaming into the hills waving your arms like chicken little. If you hate socialism so much, you better vote to privatize ALL of the government run services like the police, fire department, post office, etc., etc. It's time to vote in universal health care for everyone. 1/10 of the profits the private health provider companies pocket would be sufficient to fund a Federally run system. For all of you pooh-poohing the governments stimulus & bailout packages, just remember it was Larry Kudlow and all of his crook wall street buddies that were literally screaming for assistance from the trading floors 6 months ago. I personally would have been happy with the alternative which was doing nothing and watch the idiots on Wall Street who created this mess in the first place all start to drop like flies. Kudlow was challenged by a guest to stop ranting about how bad all the Democrat programs are and offer up some solutions and for the first time ever I saw him lost for words. The media has you so brainwashed, you'll cut off your own nose to spite your face. Remember what Stalin said, "a capitalist will sell you the rope you hang him with". If you can get past the person who made the quote, you may get the gist of what he was saying....
july61Message #616 - 02/25/09 04:05 PMWe can't even catch a small breath....Thanks to the media that FEED the Fear constantly!! All these "experts" need to SHUT UP!! & The GOP need to think about the people instead of their holier than tho PARTY!! There is so much money in this country and if the media would just shut up maybe the rich will start investing again..which will eventually trickle down to me in a couple of years!!
aomz123Message #617 - 02/25/09 04:24 PMjuly61,before you or anyone else set in to bashing tho gop,you need to stop and think about your statement.Back in the 80s everyone,and i mean everyone,dems and rep alike praised reagan for how he was able to bring the country out of ressesion,by cutting taxes across the board,and CUTTINGSPENDING BY THE FEDS.NOW YOU TAKE THIS SO CALLED STIMULUS BILL PASSED LAST WEEK,HAVE YOU READ IT? I can't say that i've read the entire thing word for word,but what i did read gave me the impression that the only jobs being either created or saved was government jobs.effectually increasing the size of government. that is what the gop is opposed to,because big government makes big waste. aomz123
aomz123Message #618 - 02/25/09 04:29 PMBY THE WAY JULY61,REAGAN AND THE GOP INVENTED TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS! AND IT WORKED SPLENDEDLY. YOU CAN'T JUST THROW MONEY AT EVERYTHING AND HOPE THAT SOMETHING STICKS, LIKE THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION SEEM TO BE DOING.
smallbusinessguyMessage #619 - 02/25/09 04:36 PMWe'll see what trickles into your pockets over the next two years. A new grad from Yale was making 10+ million in their first year on Wall Street. As an Engineer with a tertiary education, I haven't (and will not) make that in my lifetime. What have I got to show for after 25 years of dedicated service? No 401k, an upside down mortgage and $1500/mo for health insurance. Not much has trickled into my pockets... more like out of them.
aomz123Message #620 - 02/25/09 04:44 PMi never said that anything will trickle down to anyone in the present situation,i was trying to point out to july61 that the gop isn't just concerned with the party.they just realise that the plan that Obama has cannot and will not work. that is why they are against it
sharicsMessage #621 - 02/25/09 04:58 PMDoes anyone here understand economics!!! Come on people wake up. You can throw around all the numbers, factors and theorems you want, but 1+1 stills equals 2. You had an enormous amount of non existent cash (leveraged money) used to create a bubble which has now burst. Guess what, the gov't can not step in and replace money that truly never existed!!! If they believe they can, we will truly see the thirties again. Go back and read your history. Many of the steps being followed today were tried in 28-29, unsuccessfully. Economics is pretty straight forward, it's the academics like the creative accountants who try and twist it to fit their models. These people are truly in over their heads. The markets will eventually cleanse themselves, albeit, it will take time. Hopefully less than history has shown for these types of debacles.
BGA4444Message #622 - 02/25/09 07:16 PMHmmm lets see First, to help with home sales lets give everyone who can afford a home 8500 cash. Now how will that help? If they could afford a home do you not think they were already going to buy one! Next if you got a job we are going to give you $65 a month that should help with you higher interest rate on your credit cards the banks just imposed on you. It should also help with the increase in insurance everyone is getting but it will not create one job not one. It is going to be great no one working in the whole dang country and there is Obama giving us a speech on how great we are going to be again. That's great but show me the money! Nothing that they have said or done generates one new job. We need jobs now! I am mad as hell. Somebody needs to cut the politicians off crack or they are going to take the whole country down. I hope "w" is happy thanks a lot you traitor for selling this country out.
TellaStarMessage #623 - 02/25/09 07:32 PMSTOP the negative energy some of you have been putting out, the more you SPEAK Depression the more it becomes so. So just STOP IT! Only fools would want to bring it on!!! Speak recovery and recovery begins. And DO NOT LISTEN TO DOOMSAYERS! TellaStar
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:12:50 GMT -5
hungry4foodMessage #625 - 02/25/09 07:46 PMnull
JnapMessage #626 - 02/25/09 09:03 PMThe fact that the federal Government is going to spend 787 billion dollars to jump start the economy is a good thing. This money will be used to build and repair infrastructure, aid schools and education, provide additional weeks of unemployment compensation money and provide funding for clean energy and new energy sources. This money when spent by the businesses and workers of thousands of companies that receive it will allow other companies and workers to receive income that they in turn will spend and so on. The multiplier effect is said to be 7 times so the 787 billion could have a gross economic benefit of over 5 trillion dollars. These 787 billion dollars will have the same effect as a 787 billion tax cut because either way the government would have to borrow or print an equal amount of dollars. The difference between a tax cut is no one can be sure that the money would be spent. It might just go to paying off existing loans or credit cards or be saved. If that happened, which some say is exactly what happened with the Bush rebate, then the economy would not benefit by very much. With the Federal Government directing where this money will go we can be sure that it will be spent in a manner that not only grow the economy but will assist in getting needed energy reform and failing infrastructure repaired. Those that don't like the economic stimulus package offer only two alternative proposals: give business a huge tax break and lower individual tax rates. Since the upper income earners would receive the largest tax breaks we would once again have to wait for the trickle down to occur to get the economy moving. I don't think we can wait that long and lets face it the higher income people often don't trickle down but instead trickle on. One thing we have certainly learned about this economic crisis is how totally irresponsible many of our corporate and bank executives have been when it came to protecting the interests of their employees and stockholders while at the same time stuffing their own pockets. The culture of greed had to end because the country could no longer afford it. So I say, have some faith the USA is still the best country in the world and this latest test of our system is nothing new it just happens to be a little more serious than usual. We will get through this and go on regardless of what the nays Ayer·s believe. Lastly don't be so pessimistic it doesn't help.
JnapMessage #627 - 02/25/09 09:28 PMHungry4food. Your solution to the economic crisis, if I understand you, would be to get rid of all illegal aliens. Perhaps it would help and there is no question that our immigration laws must be enforced but one must ask who has profited by NOT enforcing the laws? It has been noted that the amount of deportations and enforcement has been steadily growing but we have a long way to go. Additionally, with the economic decline many illegal immigrants are going home and it is not as easy as you may think to get on welfare rolls and receive assistance; especially now that state governments are in such financial trouble. As for anchor babies, any child born in the United States is an American citizen just as any baby born in 99.9% of the countries on earth are citizens of the country were they are born. A child born in the US whose parents are illegal aliens does not automatically allow the family to stay in the US. This belief is a fallacy.
BGA4444Message #628 - 02/25/09 10:56 PM"Federal Government directing where this money will go we can be sure that it will be spent in a manner that not only grow the economy but will assist in getting needed energy reform and failing infrastructure repaired" If they can keep up where it goes it will be the first time. I do not believe they can keep up with anything in Washington. The states will just use this money to spend on programs they already were going to do. They will just use the smoke and mirrors that all politicians are so good at. This stimulus bill is an awful waste and will be like the tarp money just going to waste. But at least they are trying heck Bush was trying!
Stay PutMessage #629 - 02/26/09 05:22 AMThe 'spendulous' bill (StayPut original) will only serve in delaying the inevitable...10 - 15 years of world wide Depression.
BGA4444Message #631 - 02/26/09 12:53 PMHey DJ this is just the tip of the iceberg. These banks are all so leveraged and out on a cliff as soon as the commercial bubble bust they are all insolvent. People have no clue had bad it is going to get. My 79 year old dad called yesterday in tears. This is a guy who served in WWII and Korea and he was so upset at the special on tv on tent cities. He was born in 1929 and lived through the last one. He just can not believe it is happening again. He ask me what are all those people going to do? I told him they would get assistance from the government. But I am afraid that will be short lived. Another six to nine months and there will begin to be a breakdown in all social services. At that time it will be mob rule and God help us all! Food banks everywhere are running out. The upper class is afraid of the many crack addicts out there, but just wait till people are acting the same way over food and there are millions of them. But hey everything's going to be all right just keep telling yourselves that. Just click those ruby red shoes together and repeat after me- there is no place like home, there is no place like home we will all be back in Kansas and things will be just perfect. Remember if you lose your job and your home think positive everything's going to be just fine. Hey maybe the hungry children can eat a slice of that positive pie.
Reason_FreedomMessage #632 - 02/26/09 02:04 PMSTOP the negative energy some of you have been putting out, the more you SPEAK Depression the more it becomes so. So just STOP IT! Only fools would want to bring it on!!! Speak recovery and recovery begins. And DO NOT LISTEN TO DOOMSAYERS! This philosophy is a bunch of BS. I say every week I am going to win the lottery and it doesn't happen. I try to think about moving a wall all of the time thinking it is actually going to move. None of that stuff happens. Guess what everybody, If we all think that none of us will never die and that we will all be rich it will happen. ROFLMAO
BGA4444Message #633 - 02/26/09 04:49 PMYou know those of you raising cane about healthcare. You know the ones of you who do not want to be told by the government which doctor you can go see! Oh I know you feel better being told by a insurance company that has your best interest at heart. The time has come to socialize medicine. If you take the insurance companies out of it we can have better healthcare at 1/2 the cost. Do you really think that someone born in America only deserves healthcare based on how much money they have. If that is the way you feel then you are not a American you are a narcissist jerk who deserves exactly what you get. Hey if you burnout your kidneys you can always have someone killed and take theirs right! Healthcare makes us non-competitive in the worlds economy. To compete we must change are go the way of the Dinosaurs.
BGA4444Message #634 - 02/26/09 10:45 PMThere is something wrong going on in Washington and I just can not put my finger on it. The amount of money being spent and printed makes it look as if someone or something has been and is undermining the country. Do none of the politicians see that spending is absolutely out of control. The republicans under Bush were spending money like they were democrats and now the democrats are spending like they are republicans. I just can not understand what they are doing or trying to do. I am just confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JnapMessage #635 - 02/26/09 11:41 PMNo need to be confused. The government is trying to cause inflation because we are in a very dangerous deflationary period. The prices of homes have been falling for some time and this often leads to more deflation because many think prices will continue to fall and then wait to buy which causes more economic decline leading to more deflation and so on. If inflation were to increase so would the cost of housing which could help stabilize the banking industry and certainly help those that owe more than their property is currently valued. This could also allow more people to refinance their homes because they would have more equity. Inflation would solve many of the problems we have today but would also cause a few. Those on fixed income, many lower paid workers, and those who could not easily receive wage increases would find themselves in trouble because of higher costs. In the short term we need more inflation but once it occurs will have to fight it by increasing interest rates and tightening the money supply. This is going to happen because the amount of money being printed and borrowed by the Federal Government will cause inflation and there is just no way interest rates at 0% will continue for much longer..
Veteran_LenderMessage #636 - 02/27/09 01:11 AMInflation would solve many of the problems we have today but would also cause a few It isn't just inflation, it's hiking the borrowing rate sky-high. The deterent to using inflation to diffuse deflation is that we have too much supply and no one to buy it. The better route is to raise borrowing rates into double-digits but with more than 25% of the nation dealing with bad credit and 25% more dealing with no jobs and 25% more illegal, elderly or incapacitated, it won't work either. That's why it seems like "something is up in Washington" because there is no easy or logical course. Personally, I think all banks should be collapsed, all assets seized, all bankers shipped off to finish up the Bush Wars and a new fully regulated non-computerized institutional system replace them. Hire as many as possible to start them up, offer incentives for innovation but cut pay for administrative shortcuts. It isn't rocket science... create jobs by getting rid of administrators and stop bailing everybody. If a MBA grad is really all that smart, they should be able to figure out how to pay down their mortgage on a $24,000 annual income... so many who are not MBA's are finding ways now. The wrong people are meeting the challenge, the wrong people are getting bailed.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:13:42 GMT -5
Stay PutMessage #638 - 02/27/09 05:25 AMInflation would solve many of the problems we have today but would also cause a few. This was tried in the early thirties, and rather than have just one (1) really bad year, we ended up with ten years of what is now referred to as the 'Great Depression'. History does and will repeat itself, simply because too many are just too damn lazy to open up a book.
YtrueMessage #639 - 02/27/09 09:05 AMWe may be just slowing down a little before we go into the bottom of the curve in the markets. With nominal wages of employees being adjusted lower at some companies, the restructuring of companies to operate more efficiently in an adverse environment and home prices falling for the first time, some companies may actual benefit if the economy takes off. Holding the economy back to point B when A may look better could prove to best for business in the long run. We could not afford to keep going forward at point A with the cost of homes destroying the disposal income of such a large number of families. The new government and private investments in the private sectors should result in an increase in disposal income for some people which may have a positive impact on consumption. Also, several hundred billion dollars pump into the economy should, if only by default, increase demand and add pressure to supply. Even for the banks, the demand for loanable funds move up, putting pressure on interest rates in the long term. We all got a wakeup call...the bottom could have been worse. Let us hope that markets and the economy have a smooth upward turn .
ComoKateMessage #640 - 02/27/09 02:07 PM
We all got a wakeup call...the bottom could have been worse. Let us hope that markets and the economy have a smooth upward turn . People who've paid attention to all of the factors that have resulted in this "crisis" have been watching it slowly unfold for over 20 years. It simply accelerated last fall; a bit like watching a car move towards the edge of a cliff before it finally plunges over. I, personally, do not believe we actually have hit the "bottom" yet. We've lost our manufacturing base and the well-paying jobs that went with it; now we are even losing the service sector jobs. We were groomed to become a nation of consumers with the result that 70% of our economy was based on the consumption of goods. You can't be a consumer without a paycheck, and I see no quick fix on the horizon for putting hundreds of thousands back to work soon. No paycheck=no consumption. Until we start to produce again, the spiral downward will continue.
BGA4444Message #641 - 02/27/09 04:38 PMTent cities, stock market about to go under 7000, rampant unemployment, I really wish you negative Nancy's would stop dreaming all this into existence. Think only pleasant thoughts full employment,3br 2 bath homes for all, the government is doing an excellent job and should give themselves a nice pay raise and a huge bonus for all their staff. Things are so good maybe we should just send all the stimulus money to China to help them with their real problems. Hey could you please pass the crack pipe I need another hit I am almost about to comeback to reality!!!!
dr pumaMessage #642 - 02/27/09 05:11 PMObama put us in debt another three trillion dollars to try and fix our problems. Unfortunately, it would take ten trillion dollars and we just don't have it nor can the printing press fix it. I doubt if any of the fixes now underway will fix anything very much. Once all the current bail out money is blown to the winds, then what? I think it means the end of the road and America will have no choice but to default on its national debt. France did it a number of years ago, back when they converted old francs to new francs so that a new franc was now worth ten old francs. Imagine what a new dollar would do? One new dollar being worth ten old dollars? It means, among other things that it will take ten to twenty years to recover from it all. A rather stable world is also required during the time of recovery, but I don't see that in the cards either. It means we are running out of both time and money and at an ever-faster rate. There are no good options now. Tomorrow there will be no options left, just the decision to pull the plug ourselves or else let someone else do it for us. That is not choice. That is total calamity.
Mike C4wMessage #644 - 02/27/09 07:57 PMInflation is not such a bad thing if you can control it when it gets out of hand. With interest rates near zero, the Fed should be able to control it. It may be our only option when we talk about a 10 trillion dollar debt...
dr pumaMessage #645 - 02/27/09 08:01 PMThe government is considering paying its bills and tax refunds with IOU's? Let's get this straight: Government has the absolute power to collect taxes of all kinds, i.e. MONEY. If Government was a big business, which it is, it would be looking for big hand-outs from...well...the Government, which merely serves to prove that Government cannot exist without the people and, yet, somehow, Government continues to act as though the people have little to say as to what Congress and the President or the State Houses and the Governors will actually do. To wit, we now see that Government has placed the people last in line for serious financial attentions. Somehow Government finds mega billions for big business and banks, etc. but is unwilling to find serious money for the people. Government is showing that it cares more about big business and the banks than it does for the people, yet who has been hurt most and who did the harm? The people have been hurt most and receive minimal Government attentions and the ones who caused the harm to the people are now being rewarded in the way of mega billions in order to cover their losses and those losses were brought on by themselves. The people did no harm to big business and the banks, but the people are paying the whole load. Since when do we reward the rapist and ignore the plight of the raped? The answer is ever since the rape first started. Meanwhile the Haves tell us not to worry, to believe in the system, to look forward to that bright day when the stock market zooms again. That's easy to say, if you are a Have, but the Have Nots are growing in numbers and they have a whole different take on the matter. They are hurting by the growing millions and all the Government can say is here are a few more dollars for Unemployment Compensation and here are some Food Stamps and, oh yes, here are some big IOUs for you. Gee, thanks a lot. Now tell me who really built America from the ground up? The common laborer did it. America was built on the backsides of the people and now they are being raped and the Government and the Haves tell the Have Nots not to worry. Worry? If only it were so simple. Try hungry, unemployed and even homeless, for starters. Begin with lost pensions and savings accounts. I doubt if the American people will remain sheep for very much longer. I believe they are ready to become lions.
Falling Sky - NotMessage #646 - 02/27/09 08:16 PMI doubt if the American people will remain sheep for very much longer. I believe they are ready to become lions. If only I could believe this was true I would have something to look forward to. Any one know of any countries accepting American Refugees??
BGA4444Message #647 - 02/27/09 10:51 PMCanada has always been a safe haven for our Americans who did not want to be here.
BGA4444Message #648 - 02/28/09 04:32 AMFull and I mean full blown depression and I am the only one man enough to say it.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:14:35 GMT -5
Stay PutMessage #649 - 02/28/09 05:03 AMFull and I mean full blown depression and I am the only one man enough to say it. BGA, exqueese me. I've been saying this since last year, and have had my backside reamed by just about everyone for saying it. Now, a whole lot of people have finally awakened to see the same thing, and can't wait to scream about it. Had the same geniuses voted for Ron Paul or Chuck Baldwin of the Constitution Party, NONE of these bailouts would have ever happened. Every single person who voted for either Obama, or McPain, should be the first ones to be bent over like the cheap little prostitutes that they really are, and keep their crying mouths shut, as they had a chance to vote for every American, but rather voted like the mindless sheep they have proven to be.
BGA4444Message #650 - 02/28/09 04:22 PMHey Stay we need to vote out all politicians they are worthless. It is time to give someone new a chance! To a man and a Pelosi they must all be voted out of office!
darvey76Message #651 - 02/28/09 06:00 PMAnd replaced with what, more politicians? Now if we could somehow elect responsible caring Americans that would be a start, but alas I believe it is to late for that. I believe we are as a nation entering the fire and we will emerge or be consumed as America tested by something other than war and (pure) economic circumstances.
BGA4444Message #652 - 02/28/09 07:51 PMHey everyone wants to know how to tell when it has bottomed out. First you will begin to see a slow down in the unemployed numbers. I am not talking about jobs gained just less jobs lost each month. As you see sustained job lost slowdown over several months you will know we have turned the corner. Until that starts to happen you will continue to see the market slide down. I really don't think we will see any of this get better until the fourth quarter of 2011. By then the market will be somewhere around 4100 to 4200. There is just no reason for any upswing at all.
Stay PutMessage #653 - 03/01/09 05:27 AM I really don't think we will see any of this get better until the fourth quarter of 2011. By then the market will be somewhere around 4100 to 4200. There is just no reason for any upswing at all. BGA, 2011? And here I was thinking that you were a realist. This depression will last for a 'ten year' minimum. There will be no turn around in spite of the countless spin doctors who are going to, over the next several years, try to convince people of better days ahead. The whole time people across the country will continue to lose their jobs; food shortages and rationing will be rampant; riots breaking out from various disenfranchised Americans, crushed each time by military forces, and the system will reach the brink of total collapse until our government is finally forced to rid ourselves of the fiat monetary system. It's going to be bad for a very long time.
ahorsewithnoname2Message #654 - 03/01/09 05:50 AMI would like to say that during our time of prosperity ethics seemed to go out with yesterdays trash. Here are some controversial issues we have dealt with while our banks and etc. have been allowed to mismanage their jobs. No religion in schools, no spanking of our kids in school (seems to me we have a lot more violence in schools nowadays), gay marriage, increasing the amount of sexual content on tv, lets talk about our feelings where is my therapist?, who can i sue now. We live in a time when people can sue over hot coffee I mean how else do most people drink there coffee. The healthcare industry is overrun with lawsuits and then the american people wonder why they can't afford healthcare. It is not only the fault of the banks, wall street, or the auto industry. We live in a society where ethics is looked down upon. If the healthcare industry had less lawsuits to have to compensate for them maybe healthcare would be more affordable since these people are not gods and are susceptible to error. If we sued other companies less then maybe they to would have a little more left in there pockets. However, that is not the american way. So I would have to agree that yes it is up to americans as individuals to help improve our economy not the government that is not what they are here for. When we decide to quit bickering over what is not fair to ourselves and expect compensation for it all then our economy and society would be alot healthier
BGA4444Message #655 - 03/01/09 05:30 PMStay, you are right it will be years but most of the investors don't believe that. I am trying to get them to save some of their money. And keep a little hope that they can make back part of what they lost. They are such sheep that they think they are going to miss a huge upswing if they get out. What they don't know is they are going the get hit with a huge downswing if they stay in. I truly believe the market may loose another 20-40% over the next two months. Did you hear how much Buffet lost over 4 billion in the fourth quarter! Man I only see this thing snow balling. Yeah I also know about the upcoming break down in social services. It is going to get real bad real fast just hold on. Good luck
BarnettaMessage #656 - 03/01/09 05:54 PMCrash and Burn, we are done, USA almost destroyed by dems, republicans and greed... China, Russia, North Korea, IRAN and Radical Muslims will be dancing in the streets soon. At least we will get rid of partison politics, no more dems and republicans. No more greedy few who have destroyed the financial lives of many.
BGA4444Message #657 - 03/01/09 05:59 PMAhhhhhh the French revolution revisited heads will roll- the politicians first!
Stay PutMessage #658 - 03/01/09 06:45 PMYes I know that Buffet lost $4 Billion. Had he lost it to me, however, I could build an entire infrastructure that would make millions secure and self sufficient. There in lies the problem. For all of their supposed superiority, (real) money has always been in the wrong hands.
Stay PutMessage #659 - 03/01/09 07:24 PMWikipedia describes it as follows:
In [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics] economics, a depression is a sustained, long downturn in one or more economies. It is more severe than a [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession] recession, which is seen as a normal downturn in the [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cycle] business cycle.
Considered a rare but extreme form of recession, a depression is characterized by abnormal increases in [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment] unemployment, restriction of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_(finance)] credit, shrinking output and investment, numerous [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcies] bankruptcies, reduced amounts of [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade] trade and commerce, as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations, mostly [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devaluation] devaluations. Price [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation_(economics)] deflation or [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation] hyperinflation are also common elements of a depression. Any question as to whether ALL of the politicians (save for Ron Paul) have been and continue to lie to the American people as to the factual state of our economy? This includes the new president. We have hit every indicator (and more) that calls this a full fledge DEPRESSION. Wake up people.
BGA4444Message #660 - 03/02/09 02:39 PMHave you seen the Glen Beck video on the printing of money since the break from the gold standard? How can we print that kind of money and inflation not go through the roof. I will explain it to you all. For inflation to occur huge amounts of money printed must make it to the people. The money is not making it to the people. It is not being spent. It is going into the hands of the filthy rich and they are just sitting on it. There is no other explanation for me. But if any of you have another please share it with us.
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:15:27 GMT -5
Falling Sky - Not
Message #661 - 03/02/09 02:58 PM
Whatever is going on there are only two possibilities; Either our Congress and government are grossly incompetent or they are grossly corrupt! Either way they should be brought before a criminal court and tried by the people. There is no way this should have ever happened! It will take a good ten years for us to recover and I not convinced we will ever fully recover. Still to date not one single person has been charged with a crime and not one single politician has been held accountable nor has any new regulations gone into effect. What's wrong with this picture??
Kathy Chlamydias Placenta Pond and Chinese Takeout
Message #662 - 03/02/09 03:14 PM
crooked lawyers ,judges,etc
smallbusinessguy
Message #663 - 03/02/09 06:08 PM
The only blame the government should share in this mess is creating an atmosphere that the crooks on Wall Street could exploit. It's Wall Street's unbridled greed that has caused this mess, full stop. The trickle down economics that Stay Put and BGA4444 are all hot & bothered over was a catalyst that created the over-leveraged ponzi scheme called the derivative markets. How much money has trickled down into your pockets via the 401k or any other investment. Do you really think the fat cats on Wall Street are hurting proportionately the same as the main street USA guy? Not a chance. What I found so interesting is how fast the markets turned and how slow the media was to supposedly catch on. I suggest the media (who is controlled by the multi-national corporations who benefit from market manipulation) deliberately mislead the public. Go back and review news reports as the meltdown was occurring and the pundits were emphatic that this recession would only last one quarter... give me a break. Now all the media outlets are saying that "nobody" saw this coming. BS. I have been in a cash position sitting on the sidelines for the past 20 months waiting for this powder keg to blow. I'm no financial wizard, but who had to be to see this coming... It's only too bad the average joe never got a heads up, but if you're turning to CNBC, BNN, Bloomberg, etc., etc. (mainstream media outlets), I guarantee you're not going to find it there.
BGA4444
Message #664 - 03/02/09 06:42 PM
You are right on sbg the housing market here in Atlanta popped about two years ago. We had a lot of our builders who were in good shape begin to fall. We all noticed the down turn immediately. Guess what has started to fall off a cliff the last three months commercial business. The problem is the commercial is what has been keeping us in business and now it is about to burst or already has. This market may be in the 4000 by mid April. It looks really bad!
Route-395
Message #665 - 03/02/09 07:08 PM
The root of all evil is the love of money,when are we going to all wake up and see that the prophecy of the Bible is coming to pass, it is not about a govt. or financial instiution, its about who we have faith and trust in, GOD will deliver HIS people, HIS true people have always prospered
in troubled times. This is a time for opportunity and miracles, I know most people think this is a weird view, but I didn't invent this GOD did, and
just because one chooses not to believe does not release one from the coming Judgement. Think about it, one world govt, one world currency
micro chips implanted in each person, people forced to do only as told or you have no food or fuel. This does sound negative if you don't believe
but if you do, it means deliverance very soon never to be in this ugly mess again. RTE. 395
Stay Put
Message #666 - 03/02/09 10:51 PM
The very first post that I came back on this board with, was titled "I told you so". I was planning on adding another comment in that string, so as to place it on page one again, but I guess JJ and his MSN cronies didn't want to have that reminder of my last years predictions, so it has been deleted.
Remember, last year, JJ and several of his cult followers were all saying that this would only last one quarter. They then revised their predictions to this spring, and now they are all jumping on the "band wagon" with 'What happened?' 'Who's to blame?' Well, not to put to fine a point Mr. Chewbacca, Jubauk, or what ever it is, YOU and every lying economist on MSN, and every other news media are to blame.
When Americans start looking to string people up, let us not forget all of those who strung all of America along as well.
weed wacked
Message #667 - 03/03/09 12:18 AM
Why dont we just have the government create an agency that keeps an eye on peoples personnal accounts and then can freeze there spending. This would help control peoples spending, and create alot of jobs. Lets get smart !
BGA4444
Message #668 - 03/03/09 12:37 AM
Hey weed they already got it it is called the IRS.
FinalLap
Message #669 - 03/03/09 01:43 AM
Whether we want to call this a depression or recession is debatable at this moment, but the big "D" may soon have two meanings, besides divorce. If we look back at history after the great depression, weren't rules and regs put into place to keep the financials and markets honest? Weren't they written off by Mr. Clinton's pen stroke in the 90's? A few years later we have real estate blasting off to the moon. The American dream comes true for many folks previously unqualified. In reality it's an American nightmare for all legitimate homeowners and taxpayers.
With all the Stimulus money, it seems the government is trying to make redemption at taxpayer's expense, on a screw up they themselves initiated. Wouldn't it also be a good thing for the current administration to roll back the flawed legislation, and prohibit ACORN from promoting pressure tactics on loan officers and financial institutions? The banks seemed to keep out of big trouble for many many years until their lending practices were politically manipulated.
smallbusinessguy
Message #670 - 03/03/09 07:08 AM
I can't believe a single CEO is not in jail yet... and don't even get me started with Madoff. I personally think Obama is embarrassed with the mess he has inherited, but how does he wade through the red tape and attention now? Kennedy stood up to the multi-nationals and where did it get him?
BGA4444
Message #671 - 03/03/09 12:45 PM
How about the accounting firms that said " Oh these guys are just fine not too much risk here". Is no one responsible for anything anymore? Somebody doctored the books at all these places which is a crime and not one person has gone to jail yet. Add pre-meditated murder to Bernie's charges then execute his butt. Then these type of things will not happen. I have never in my life seen a bigger flight risk than Bernie and he is under house arrest.
J-REB
Message #672 - 03/03/09 01:07 PM
Things have not hit bottom yet--the rich have not begged for the rocks to cover them and the great pretender has not lifted us in exhalting his works!
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bga4444
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:16:20 GMT -5
BGA4444
Message #673 - 03/03/09 05:06 PM
The banks need to unload the tarp themselves. I heard a guy on msnbc say if the government ends up with them they the government will sell them at such a loss that the real estate market would even deteriorate further, causing even more harm than good. The banks need to go ahead and fire sale all that crap before the price falls further. Then the insolvent b a s t****s can go back to work stealing more money from us.
Stay Put
Message #674 - 03/03/09 09:41 PM
If we are to get any type of justice, we have to get rid of the two parties in the upcoming elections. Only then will heads really start to roll. Not only will we get the criminals in the corporate world, but the treasonous politicians who sold off our rights, liberties, and security to the corpratestocracy, and put us all in this world wide depression.
No matter what your philosophical beliefs are, just do it. For the next four to six years, 'throw your vote away' and vote for the Independent ticket on every upcoming elections (local/state/fed). Has our economy seen any permanent changes for the better in our once great nation, voting for either DNC or GOP?
Only by voting Independent (myself Constitutional Party) will we have even half a chance for our nations economy, our freedoms, our children, and their children. What do any of you truly have to lose? Have any of you in either party 'ever' been ecstatic four years later, voting the same ticket that you have always voted? If you are not happy, go back to your original party four years later. How will any of you truly know, though, unless you at least give it a try. For your children's future and our economy do it the next elections.
BGA4444
Message #676 - 03/04/09 12:11 PM
I will vote for any independent! Tent cities are popping up in major metropolitan areas. The dems and repubs are to blame for this thing. It is time for change in Washington. Somebody in Washington should be a man and call this what it is. The worst depression in the history of the world!!
smallbusinessguy
Message #677 - 03/04/09 05:31 PM
Now you're talking. Lets kick the lawyers and accountants out of the Congress and vote in some honest, down-to-earth people from Main Street in there. The ivory club is too well connected with too many "debts" to pay back to the people that put them into office. That'll probably only leave the independents behind anyways.
STexasRedSoxFan
Message #678 - 03/04/09 05:35 PM
The article makes the false argument that saving by individuals is "irrational behavior" because it contributes to the overall economic decline. The fallacy of this argument lies in the fact that what is good for me individually may not be good for society as a whole if everyone does it. Take robbing banks for example. Assuming I can get away with it, it is in by rational best interest to rob a bank. However, if everyone robbed banks, there wouldn't be any and my life would be worse off. It is in the best interest of any individual to save and pay off debt in the current situation. This is perfectly rational behavior. The problem for me as an individual is not that I'm hurting myself by being a saver. The problem for me is that all the other savers are bringing down the economy. In an ideal world, I would save and pay off debt, and everyone else would borrow and spend. That's the ideal world of economists that got us into this mess in the first place!
jasonhad
Message #679 - 03/04/09 06:10 PM
Call it what you will, this is the hangover inevitable after allowing ourselves to consume too much of our wealth in the pursuit of creature comforts beyong our earned income capacity, trusting in charlatans with pin-stripes, over-mortgaging our assets to borrow from strangers, and leaving the dirty work of making things to those very strangers, who will work for pennies compared to the dollars our domestic manufacturers must pay. Let us hope our consumerholism has not gone so far as to destroy our ability to recover our former glory of hard work, building for the future, saving for the dips, and severely punishing those who do wrong.
No Pain no Gain
Message #680 - 03/04/09 06:10 PM
People now need to put down a 20% to buy a house. people who want to buy a car or put an addition on their house or take a vacation do not have equity in theirhomes any longer. Thats why many people will now start saving, because they have to.
Chick Dishong
Message #681 - 03/04/09 06:14 PM
Headed for a depression? You must be joking. We are in one, and will continue to be in one until we start making something again, if that's even possible. Global economy my butt. Service economy? Service this:(
I hear a bunch of moron republicans screaming about the Obama plan and the possibility that it will leave an unmanageable debt to our grand children. What a bunch of narcisstic hypocrits. Where was that talk when the national debt went from $4 trillion under W to $10 trillion. Self deluded pukes.
While I don't personally believe his plan will work, some of the rationale behind the arguments against it are idiotic.
We make nothing, and that's a big problem that will get bigger as other economies decline along with ours. Look for problems in the food supply chain for starters. That's when the real fun will begin.
nanok
Message #682 - 03/04/09 06:15 PM
A depression is probably not as bad as one might fear. Any depression would stop the obamination trying to inflict national socialism on us. But, more importantly, the depression would wring all of the insanity out of the markets, all of them, and get us back to a value based economy that rewards savings, fiscal sanity, and supports free men the right to be free.
rumbler
Message #683 - 03/04/09 06:19 PM
I feel we are in the beginning of a depression. A mild one, not severe yet. How long and how hard will yet to be seen.
A major correction in the economy and the markets has long been overdue. Spending beyond one's limits was getting out of hand, with the greed of Wall St. and the bankers out of control.
We will survive but it is going to be a very, very tough time for a while. Longer than most have seen in a long time.
The biggest concern is how much are we willing to let the government step in and take control of the banks, insurance, etc...to much regulation will choke Capitalism. Capitalism is what this country was built on.
My Anger and Thoughts
Message #684 - 03/04/09 06:22 PM
Hello, If we get one thing from this mess that is the need to do away with the Federal Reserve and get the money supply back under the control of the congress, Ron Paul is right we under 50 just lost our social security check but are required to pay these pricks while Paulson and his friends have just walked away with it and with out a whimper from the worthless congress. Angry Guy
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bga4444
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Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:17:12 GMT -5
checkitoutMessage #685 - 03/04/09 06:25 PMThe unconsidered investor: What I'm thinking. Hey guess what, I can effect the powers that be, (Read as Those who are taking all the money). And I can do it by keeping my money. If I keep what I get long enough, spending on only those things I need to survive, the fat cats at the top (read as wall street) who started this mess will be crushed and die. This is what is currently happening. The government is not punishing the people who put us into this mess. The only way to stop these idiots who believe they need to be personally the most wealthy folks on the planet standing on the backs of those who would feed their families is to strip them of their jobs and money. How to do that? Put my money in the local bank, in the back yard, in the mattress, in guaranteed funds like a cd? These are all functional, build my local economy, and make me money. Not enough to make me rich, but maybe enough to make me ice cream tomorrow for lunch and a bit of pie for dinner. Or maybe just enough to pay for the substandard "free" school that I have to send my child to. I am angry that there are people out there who are taking millions and billions of my money, our money and giving it to the very folks who are responsible for ripping me off in the first place. The folks who are taking my money from me are paid in six figures and given 7 figure bonuses. The last time I saw near that kind of money was when my parents died. They believed in the very folks have been found stealing my money. Now my government (read as by the people of the people for the people) is giving my money by the trillions of dollars to to AIG like businesses to give it to those who just took millions and billions and left me holding the tab. AIG made bad bets at the track, but because they made bets with folks who might very well launch nukes at them, and because they live in our neighborhood, we have to pay their debts. These debts were based on ratings provided by firms (read as ratings firms) that used deceitful and irresponsible information from deceitful and irresponsible banks in creating those ratings. These debts were to pay out on changes in market movement AND TRIGGERS CREATED BY THE VERY FIRMS WHOM WE NOW WE HAVE TO TRUST BECAUSE WE CAN'T DEFAULT ON THOSE DEBTS. Now this gets convoluted, because now the government comes and takes the very money we took in retribution for the money wall street took and give it back to them in debts from firms like AIG. I understand capitulation, and I understand that sooner or later we will have to give in the the governments ability to print more than we can take and we will all jump on the wagon and ride to riches again. But not until you can assure me that a wagon with 1 horse and 1 wheel will run. If the market crashes and takes 6 and 7 figure incomes with it, well so be it. So sorry Mr. Buffet, Mr. Gates, you might not deserve it. But we can't rely on our government to fix it.
nanokMessage #686 - 03/04/09 06:30 PMSocialism is the cancer that is fatal to man!
Buddylee777Message #687 - 03/04/09 06:33 PMBiggest problem with capitalism is after a while the capatalist get greedy.
PaterMessage #688 - 03/04/09 07:13 PMIf we are in a depression, the Anointed One, will be the ONLY one would will able to lead us back to the Promised Land flowing with milk and honey.........
No Body Knows NothinMessage #689 - 03/04/09 07:24 PMWhat about those, like me, who have already lost their homes to foreclosure? I was unemployed. Well, now that I've had a job again for almost a year, I'm paying MORE for rent that I did when I owned the house. And I can actually afford it. However, with totally trashed credit, even if I wanted to, I can't buy another house, a car, or get a credit card. You want me to go out and buy something instead of saving? You must be kidding! And since their are millions of people like me out there, most of whom were not lucky enough to get another job, how does the government expect us to buy?
erocker414Message #690 - 03/04/09 07:30 PM"Reestablishing our manufacturing base will take time." Yes it will, though our government since Bush Sr. has been running the manufacturing base out of our country. This current regime is going a step further by continuing this agenda and falsely inflating the middle class through the redistribution of money. Hello socialism/communism, goodbye USA. Unless of course we do something about it. Our big economy which we "enjoyed" for the past couple decades was nothing more than an illusion. Save your money, don't put your faith into those who want you faithless.
LuckyCricketMessage #691 - 03/04/09 07:56 PM"If people react to weakening job prospects by stiffing their credit card and mortgage lenders in order to save at a level that will let them survive a financial meltdown, he sees the potential for $6 trillion in lost spending over the next two years." Well at least someone out there actually has their finger on the pulse of America lol. Sounds like the best plan of action to me, particularly since if you continue to foolishly pay your own debts, while simultaneously being forced to pay to bail-out the banks for their own foolish behavior and additionally have to pay for those that are not paying their own debts- that leaves responsible people holding the bag! What nonsense! But of course that is the reality, irresponsibility is the way to survive this mess. Too bad for the banks.
LuckyCricketMessage #692 - 03/04/09 08:08 PM"Call it what you will, this is the hangover inevitable after allowing ourselves to consume too much of our wealth in the pursuit of creature comforts beyong our earned income capacity, trusting in charlatans with pin-stripes, over-mortgaging our assets to borrow from strangers, and leaving the dirty work of making things to those very strangers, who will work for pennies compared to the dollars our domestic manufacturers must pay. Let us hope our consumerholism has not gone so far as to destroy our ability to recover our former glory of hard work, building for the future, saving for the dips, and severely punishing those who do wrong." Humm and for those of us who did not participate in your party above? Ohhhh that's right, we get to be not only the designated driver, but also the designated SUCKERS who pay our own way and everyone else's'? At what point does being responsible become self destructive and no longer in ones own best interest?
old_house_loverMessage #693 - 03/04/09 08:16 PM"BGA4444 - I agree Gold but everyone should save their resources,not make any major purchases and keep as much money as possible out of the stock market. That way when times really get tough they can at least get by for awhile." I'm out of the market, too, but we've actually decided to make some purchases at our home because when it all collapses, our accounts will be worthless & at least we will have tangible assets that are not just numbers on a statement. (This spending only came after the mortgage was paid off.) Do you REALLY think the SIPC/FDIC can insure all the banks/funds out there? You'll be lucky to see 50 cents on the dollar. I am not talking vacations, or 'wants', either. We're drilling a well for our own water supply, a corn stove for heat, & ammo. A bank statement will not make you self-sufficient when your job/company evaporates. If it doesn't pan out the way we think it will, we will have an alternate heat/water supply & lotsa "plinking" in our future.
old_house_loverMessage #694 - 03/04/09 08:21 PM
If we are to get any type of justice, we have to get rid of the two parties in the upcoming elections. Only then will heads really start to roll. Not only will we get the criminals in the corporate world, but the treasonous politicians who sold off our rights, liberties, and security to the corpratestocracy, and put us all in this world wide depression.
No matter what your philosophical beliefs are, just do it. For the next four to six years, 'throw your vote away' and vote for the Independent ticket on every upcoming elections (local/state/fed). Has our economy seen any permanent changes for the better in our once great nation, voting for either DNC or GOP?
Only by voting Independent (myself Constitutional Party) will we have even half a chance for our nations economy, our freedoms, our children, and their children. What do any of you truly have to lose? Have any of you in either party 'ever' been ecstatic four years later, voting the same ticket that you have always voted? If you are not happy, go back to your original party four years later. How will any of you truly know, though, unless you at least give it a try. For your children's future and our economy do it the next elections. I do EVERY time. The 2 party system is broken.
smallbusinessguyMessage #695 - 03/04/09 08:56 PMRemember, socialism and communism are two completely different things. It seems whenever a pundit in the media labels something as socialist, all of you redneck right wing retards go screaming into the hills waving your arms like chicken little. If you hate socialism so much, you better vote to privatize ALL of the government run services like the police, fire department, post office, etc., etc. It's time to vote in universal health care for everyone. 1/10 of the profits the private health provider companies pocket would be sufficient to fund a Federally run system. For all of you pooh-poohing the governments stimulus & bailout packages, just remember it was Larry Kudlow and all of his crook wall street buddies that were literally screaming for assistance from the trading floors 6 months ago. I personally would have been happy with the alternative which was doing nothing and watch the idiots on Wall Street who created this mess in the first place all start to drop like flies. Kudlow was challenged by a guest to stop ranting about how bad all the Democrat programs are and offer up some solutions and for the first time ever I saw him lost for words. The media has you so brainwashed, you'll cut off your own nose to spite your face. Remember what Stalin said, "a capitalist will sell you the rope you hang him with". If you can get past the person who made the quote, you may get the gist of what he was saying....
cherokeenutMessage #696 - 03/04/09 09:22 PMWe are the Republican wealthy, we WILL see President Barack Obama, a man I deeply admire, crash by saving our money, stocking our food stores and arming ourselves. Can you say "entrenched"?
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bga4444
Established Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 17:33:41 GMT -5
Posts: 335
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Post by bga4444 on Dec 24, 2010 1:18:05 GMT -5
corkyd
Message #697 - 03/04/09 09:27 PM
Wall Street runs on confidence and Greed. Greed is always there, but when confidence wanes, GREED gets stronger and the market collapses- no incentive to sit and wait and watch your paper profits disappear.
The Economy runs on confidence- confident that you will continue to have income? then you'll buy a car, take out a home inprovement loan, buy a house,etc. But, if you are fearful that your job is going away, then you save, cut spending, reduce debt, sell the car you bought and pay cash for an older one, etc.
Dems andRepub's alike SAY that they dont like deficits.. yet we still have them? Why? because Congress spends the $$$ like they can print it. The Prez doesnt SPEND anything.. Congress does. Only in america do we have a government body that creates problems so that they can 'fix' things. We have idiots that want power in Congress, so we have spending on programs that do nothing for the economy, just for the Congressional district where the $$ is spent and to create a larger power base.
Both parties SAY that they support our military - yet NEITHER has done diddly to protect them and serve them after they are back from a war and injured. The VA still turns down problems that are KNOWN to be service related and refuses to adress known service related issues- all over $$$.- back to Congress again!..
Obama and his team talk about the economy and Wall street tanks, more each time- why? no confidence in what he says or his plans.
either Congress is full of idiots that flunked economics or they know what they are doing, and doing it deliberately to enable more Federal power and control, to make the people depend more and more on Gov't for their livelyhood. Government doesn NOT create jobs and thus 'stimulate' the economy- every $$ that they spend comes OUT of the economy- they get more $$ by taxing more - usually "the wealthy" and evil corporations- except, that the Wealthy are the ones who invest in business that makes jobs-- and corporations do not pay taxes.. the $$ is in the price we pay for the goods and services they provide.. WE PAY ALL TAXES!! GOT IT?
The less that Gov't TAKES from us the MORE we have to spend, save, use to make the economy grow, andthen, the more we make, the more people have jobs, then more people can pay taxes. The notion that Congress has enough sense to chide GM over not making enough profit or not putting enough away for the retirement/insurance benefits.. is ludricous! Congress has taken the SS $ and corrupted that and put it into the general budget. They mandated that FNMA and Frdmac buy loans that were known to be bad! no.. it aint the neighbor that has defaulted and made the credit and banks fail, its the folks that bought houses to rent or flip, got 90-100% loans, and now the values are down and they cant be sold without losing $$!
Wounded warrior
Message #698 - 03/04/09 10:01 PM
Pres. Obama doesn't seem to have enough problems now, so he's going to start ramping them up, like adding socialized medicine to the others. I think the man is ready for the looney bin, He'a shown an unusual lack of savvy for a president so far ( is it 4 or 5 of his choices that are proven tax evaders?; diligent office holders check these things out first). What he also doesn't understand is that hospitals and clinics in Europe are owned and run by the governments; they are PRIVATELY owned here, so it would be a whole different, mixed equation here than in Europe (all these must be purchased by the gov't. a HUGE expense. Did Obama just jump off the ivory tower he is on, or what?
Marcus the carcass
Message #699 - 03/04/09 10:10 PM
Things are crappy, we're not going to get out of this soon, and it may be a little simplistic, but I'm at least hoping for a little bounce once we are past the crappy winter weather that has covered much of the country constantly so far this year, and folks may spend get out a little more, and perhaps spend a little of their tax refund (if they got one)
Marcus the carcass
Message #700 - 03/04/09 10:14 PM
The people in congress know nothing about economics... If you ever have occasion to watch hearings or anything, you can listen to those people and tell they are not that smart! Nancy Pelosi has probably never even balanced a checkbook! She was the daughter of a politician, married an investment banker in her early 20s, she has no clue about the real world!
ecoplan
Message #701 - 03/04/09 10:22 PM
Just give every man, woman, and child over the age of 18,who pays taxes, a piece of the pie. We'll either pay off, buy, or invest. One way or another that is the greatest stimulus that could happen.
BTW, there would have to be stipulations...spend in one calender year, on American products. This is the absolute best answer against all the negative media. Give us something to believe in, since everyone I talk to starts about the economy. This problem won't fix itself, but this solution at least boost the moods, so we can get back on track to surviving.
BGA4444
Message #702 - 03/05/09 02:46 AM
Atlanta armed robbery today. Two black men walk into pawn shop in north Atlanta shoot clerk in leg and tazer manager and take what they want. This is just the tip of what will be happening soon. The home invasions will start to occur next in very affluent areas be prepared!!
Teranko
Message #703 - 03/05/09 03:24 AM
Enough with the fear mongering... in 2002 there were 1,426,325 violent crimes in the US. That means on average, there were 3,907 violent crimes every single day. Can't say your example has me running out to buy a gun.
SPOCK112856
Message #704 - 03/05/09 04:03 AM
We are in a Depression and have been for the past 3 months, immediately following the Recession which started in December 2008 and became the Depression in January 2009, as soon as Obama took office. Best advice would be to stock extra food, water, medical supplies and guns, lots of guns, because you are going to need them!
BGA4444
Message #706 - 03/05/09 10:02 AM
Just wait till it happens to someone you know or someone in your family. It will not be to late then for you to buy a weapon go to a range and learn how to pull a trigger. It is not the violence but the level at which the violence ahs been raised. In the past two months I have heard of two instances where robberies start with a shooting. It is very disturbing and not the norm. I have stated this before. The filthy rich lives in fear of a crack head killing them for a hit of cocaine. Just wait till that same level of violence hits the masses about food. What extremes would you go to to feed a hunger child when a non caring upper class stashes trillions in Swiss bank accounts. They will have brought this on themselves. Remember police and social service layoffs have already begun. Do you not think the crooks and soon to be crooks know this. I predict in the next 10 months unheard of levels of extremely violent bank robberies because of the hatred of what the banking system has done to us. Not that they deserve that are anything. But any money stolen will be replaced with government funds making the robberies justified by the criminals.
Kathy Chlamydias Placenta Pond and Chinese Takeout
Message #707 - 03/05/09 01:00 PM
Do you think that maybe some of the things going on are a result of the culture that has been created in this country of entitlement? I have heard people on the streets say things like (I deserve to have what I want ) I have heard some of the lamest excuses for stealing. How can someone honestly say they dont have a chance in a country that has all kinds of churches,Gov handouts etc.I have employees who want to be fired so they can collect unemployement.These same employees are stealing thousands a year from the gov in the form of food stamps free child care free medical etc,by falsifying documents.I even heard a comment one day about so and so has 3 cars,what does he need 3 cars for? since when did hard work and success become anathema? so until the culture is fixed,you cant fix the rest.It would take at least 3 generations to fix this attitude and it would have to start at home.
BGA4444
Message #708 - 03/05/09 05:56 PM
Hey someone in Washington needs to man up and just call this what is, This is a full blown worldwide depression.
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