Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 21:02:39 GMT -5
I know first hand how incredibly difficult changing names and pronouns are, having gone through it with a half dozen people including my spouse who I wasn't really thrilled about the changes. But you use the name and pronoun that the person requests that you do. If you're not sure, ask. How difficult do you think it is to live in a gender when others won't even acknowledge it? Or apparently let you use the bathroom. I've misread people and sir'd women. I apologize and move on working to be more careful in the future. I don't live in a big city so this is not something I have ever encountered. There are people that I'm not sure what they are but there is usually no reason for me to address them. Unless I'm told by someone that they suddenly want to be called she, I would t know I was supposed to if they still looked like a he. Does that make sense (I'm not sure I'm explaining this well!).
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,996
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 21:08:24 GMT -5
I know first hand how incredibly difficult changing names and pronouns are, having gone through it with a half dozen people including my spouse who I wasn't really thrilled about the changes. But you use the name and pronoun that the person requests that you do. If you're not sure, ask. How difficult do you think it is to live in a gender when others won't even acknowledge it? Or apparently let you use the bathroom. I've misread people and sir'd women. I apologize and move on working to be more careful in the future. I don't live in a big city so this is not something I have ever encountered. There are people that I'm not sure what they are but there is usually no reason for me to address them. Unless I'm told by someone that they suddenly want to be called she, I would t know I was supposed to if they still looked like a he. Does that make sense (I'm not sure I'm explaining this well!). It makes sense. I don't go out of my way to address strangers either. But we are talking about a transwoman. There isn't any reason to use male pronouns for her in this context.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 64,488
|
Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 21:08:24 GMT -5
Is there a difference between a cross dresser and a transgender? We have a male professor at my work who dresses like a woman -clothes, make up, fake boobs, the whole 9 yards. But he still refers to himself as a "he" and he uses the men's restroom. Also, he is interested in ladies, romantically. So I think that would make some females uncomfortable having him in the restroom. I always thought straight cross dressers did so in private-a sexual attraction to female garments (texture?) and cosmetics.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 21:13:56 GMT -5
I don't live in a big city so this is not something I have ever encountered. There are people that I'm not sure what they are but there is usually no reason for me to address them. Unless I'm told by someone that they suddenly want to be called she, I would t know I was supposed to if they still looked like a he. Does that make sense (I'm not sure I'm explaining this well!). It makes sense. I don't go out of my way to address strangers either. But we are talking about a transwoman. There isn't any reason to use male pronouns for her in this context. I don't even know what that means! I'm being serious here. Keep in mind, you have lived his so you know it inside and out. To me, this is a guy that will eventually legally be a woman but he isn't (and I only know of him becoming a her legally because I asked you that about your dh!). But, if my co-worker asked me to refer to him as a her from this point forward, I would really try my best not to slip ( it took me years to not slip and go by my maiden name!) out of respect for my co-worker. But I still don't want to share a bathroom with her!
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,996
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 21:14:45 GMT -5
Cross dressers still identify as their birth gender.
Do the male professors have a problem with him using their bathroom that you know of?
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Jun 13, 2013 21:16:33 GMT -5
So why does the world have to kowtow to the transgender person? Seems their so called discomfort gets to trump everyone else.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 21:16:53 GMT -5
Is there a difference between a cross dresser and a transgender? We have a male professor at my work who dresses like a woman -clothes, make up, fake boobs, the whole 9 yards. But he still refers to himself as a "he" and he uses the men's restroom. Also, he is interested in ladies, romantically. So I think that would make some females uncomfortable having to share a restroom with him. The people at my work are really picky about who uses the bathroom. I can't tell you how many times the "potty police" have tried to stop me from entering because they assume I'm a student. Lol! I had ladies at a client that were like that. There was a single bathroom that just said "restroom" on the door. I always had female staff on that job so the first time I had a male wih me I showed him the bathroom. The ladies had a fit when he used it! They seemed it the ladies room and made him to to the other department to use the bathroom here (just down a long hall).
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,996
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 21:23:35 GMT -5
It makes sense. I don't go out of my way to address strangers either. But we are talking about a transwoman. There isn't any reason to use male pronouns for her in this context. I don't even know what that means! I'm being serious here. Keep in mind, you have lived his so you know it inside and out. To me, this is a guy that will eventually legally be a woman but he isn't (and I only know of him becoming a her legally because I asked you that about your dh!). But, if my co-worker asked me to refer to him as a her from this point forward, I would really try my best not to slip ( it took me years to not slip and go by my maiden name!) out of respect for my co-worker. But I still don't want to share a bathroom with her! Well my Dh didn't 'legally' transition until just before ds was born. It was the cheapest way to ensure that Dh had parental rights and responsibilities, so he got his drivers licensed changed, we waddled down to the court house at 37 weeks preggo, and got a piece of paper that allowed Dh to sign the birth certificate regardless of paternity. That isn't when he became a man though. Surgery didn't make him a man, and even hormones didn't make him a man, but the affects if hormones made other people view him as a man. Passing as female can be exponentially harder coming from the other way. And knowing what you do, would you care if my Dh used the women's bathroom?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 21:30:49 GMT -5
I don't even know what that means! I'm being serious here. Keep in mind, you have lived his so you know it inside and out. To me, this is a guy that will eventually legally be a woman but he isn't (and I only know of him becoming a her legally because I asked you that about your dh!). But, if my co-worker asked me to refer to him as a her from this point forward, I would really try my best not to slip ( it took me years to not slip and go by my maiden name!) out of respect for my co-worker. But I still don't want to share a bathroom with her! Well my Dh didn't 'legally' transition until just before ds was born. It was the cheapest way to ensure that Dh had parental rights and responsibilities, so he got his drivers licensed changed, we waddled down to the court house at 37 weeks preggo, and got a piece of paper that allowed Dh to sign the birth certificate regardless of paternity. That isn't when he became a man though. Surgery didn't make him a man, and even hormones didn't make him a man, but the affects if hormones made other people view him as a man. Passing as female can be exponentially harder coming from the other way. And knowing what you do, would you care if my Dh used the women's bathroom? Is this a trick question?lol. Do you mean if your dh wanted to use the men's room?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 21:38:17 GMT -5
Well my Dh didn't 'legally' transition until just before ds was born. It was the cheapest way to ensure that Dh had parental rights and responsibilities, so he got his drivers licensed changed, we waddled down to the court house at 37 weeks preggo, and got a piece of paper that allowed Dh to sign the birth certificate regardless of paternity. That isn't when he became a man though. Surgery didn't make him a man, and even hormones didn't make him a man, but the affects if hormones made other people view him as a man. Passing as female can be exponentially harder coming from the other way. And knowing what you do, would you care if my Dh used the women's bathroom? Your dh was born a woman? Is this the first time you've talked about it on here? It seems like I would have remembered something like this! Well, thank you for being so open. Life would be really boring if we were all the same. I hope you and your dh have been treated kindly. Rae has always but open in talking about her dh...and very kind in replying to everyone's questions
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,996
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 21:45:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess it is. but really just trying to pinpoint who its okay to share a public bathroom with. If transwoman can't because they are really men, then you should be ok with my Dh because to you he's really a girl. In practice I don't think you'd like that solution. And what I'm really thinking you want is women who look like your definition of femininity and no one else.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,996
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 21:50:35 GMT -5
Your dh was born a woman? Is this the first time you've talked about it on here? It seems like I would have remembered something like this! Well, thank you for being so open. Life would be really boring if we were all the same. I hope you and your dh have been treated kindly. Rae has always but open in talking about her dh...and very kind in replying to everyone's questions Thank you misst and wrongside. Everyone here has always been very kind to me, and that has been our experience IRL for the most part too.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 21:51:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess it is. but really just trying to pinpoint who its okay to share a public bathroom with. If transwoman can't because they are really men, then you should be ok with my Dh because to you he's really a girl. In practice I don't think you'd like that solution. And what I'm really thinking you want is women who look like your definition of femininity and no one else. That is not true. I work with a very butch lesbian and I have no problem with her in the ladies room because she is a female. It would never occur to me that she shouldn't use the ladies room. The fact that she dresses like a man does not change the fact that she is a female. To be clear, she never claims to be anything other than a female And no, I would not have a problem with your dh using the ladies room. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say that. You asked so I am being honest.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2013 22:27:29 GMT -5
Milee, I hear and feel your pain. It's easy when you have a big company to stand behind you. A small company usually can't afford to. DF does not tolerate smoking, period. Something his employees all know and are fine with. New employee seems to have not gotten the memo which is very odd because he is a cousin of one of our employees and you'd think the cousin would have told him. Now he has a choice. We are totally smoke free and, no, you cannot smoke on your own time, regardless of that you feel your private time is your business and no one else's. fortunately, we have a 90 day termination for no cause at all. So he is going to be let go after summer. I can't imagine how it was missed in the beginning. Glad it's not my problem.
|
|
raeoflyte
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 15:43:53 GMT -5
Posts: 14,996
|
Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 22:43:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess it is. but really just trying to pinpoint who its okay to share a public bathroom with. If transwoman can't because they are really men, then you should be ok with my Dh because to you he's really a girl. In practice I don't think you'd like that solution. And what I'm really thinking you want is women who look like your definition of femininity and no one else. That is not true. I work with a very butch lesbian and I have no problem with her in the ladies room because she is a female. It would never occur to me that she shouldn't use the ladies room. The fact that she dresses like a man does not change the fact that she is a female. To be clear, she never claims to be anything other than a female And no, I would not have a problem with your dh using the ladies room. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say that. You asked so I am being honest. Fair enough. Eta- is there any time that you would be ok with a trans woman using the women's bathroom? After surgery?
|
|
simser
Familiar Member
Joined: Jan 29, 2011 15:54:04 GMT -5
Posts: 798
|
Post by simser on Jun 13, 2013 23:24:20 GMT -5
To answer the first question: in an ideal world I would be freaked out in the beginning and would be ok with it after I got the explanation.
In actuality I'd probably still be a little freaked. Mostly because I'm still on the fence about my own feelings towards transgendered people. I want to be ok with it and I just don't understand. Luckily I'm so nice I would never say anything... Lol. Plus females never see each other in the restroom as people have pointed out.
Also from practical experience I was in a restroom one day (unisex) and a guy was in the stall next to me and seeing the shoes point in another direction really did startle me. Has anyone else here actually done that? It's far more gut punching than you might think!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 5:27:57 GMT -5
Milee, I hear and feel your pain. It's easy when you have a big company to stand behind you. A small company usually can't afford to. DF does not tolerate smoking, period. Something his employees all know and are fine with. New employee seems to have not gotten the memo which is very odd because he is a cousin of one of our employees and you'd think the cousin would have told him. Now he has a choice. We are totally smoke free and, no, you cannot smoke on your own time, regardless of that you feel your private time is your business and no one else's. fortunately, we have a 90 day termination for no cause at all. So he is going to be let go after summer. I can't imagine how it was missed in the beginning. Glad it's not my problem. So....you agree that the rights of one guy (the one who wants to smoke) don't supersede the rights of everyone else?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 5:29:00 GMT -5
That is not true. I work with a very butch lesbian and I have no problem with her in the ladies room because she is a female. It would never occur to me that she shouldn't use the ladies room. The fact that she dresses like a man does not change the fact that she is a female. To be clear, she never claims to be anything other than a female And no, I would not have a problem with your dh using the ladies room. I'm not trying to be offensive when I say that. You asked so I am being honest. Fair enough. Eta- is there any time that you would be ok with a trans woman using the women's bathroom? After surgery? I honestly do not know.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:30:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 6:27:55 GMT -5
Smoking impacts the health of other people directly, ie. it infringes on the the rights of another person. I don't thing sharing a bathroom with private stalls impacts your life, liberty or pursuit of happiness in any way. Ie. we have the right to be who we are so long as it oes not infringe on the rights of others.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 6:31:38 GMT -5
Smoking impacts the health of other people directly, ie. it infringes on the the rights of another person. I don't thing sharing a bathroom with private stalls impacts your life, liberty or pursuit of happiness in any way. Ie. we have the right to be who we are so long as it oes not infringe on the rights of others. I'm just glad I work for a very conservative company. I can't foresee this ever being an issue for me. Since the law in my state seems to be on my side, I can't imagine anyone ever forcing this situation on me.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:30:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 6:34:55 GMT -5
All your law says is that bathrooms have to be made unisex. That is personally what I'd do. It sounds like your company is unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:30:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 6:41:11 GMT -5
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 7:52:30 GMT -5
All your law says is that bathrooms have to be made unisex. That is personally what I'd do. It sounds like your company is unlikely to do so in the foreseeable future. No, the laws says if it is unisex I have to suck it up. However, if there are bathrooms designated for men and bathrooms designated for women, then you have to use the bathroom that matches your genetics not what you identify with. Until this board I have never heard of the transgender issue (I HAVE heard of sex change). This is not something that I have heard of anyone else in my area having to deal with (considering I used to audit local companies I do have my finger on what goes on locally). Knowing my company the way I do, I do not think this is something that would be forced upon employees. Unlike Milee who rules with a "do it my way or I will fire you" attitude, my company has an HR department that utilizes several labor attorneys. The first action would be to find out what legally has to be done. If nothing, it would stop there. If they had to do something they would. And if the law said I had to suck it up, I would. I wouldn't be happy about it but I wouldn't cause a stink about it. Actualy, I wouldn't be the one causing the stink. The clerks here are mostly older women and they would be all over this....I would get the benefit of working with older, petty women!lol
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 21,555
|
Post by happyhoix on Jun 14, 2013 8:37:26 GMT -5
Really? An individual bathroom? Some of our buildings have just two bathrooms - male and female - to create an 'individual' bathroom means we would have to jackhammer the frickin' floor to install the piping. Unless we tell her to get into her car and drive down the road to the Wendy's.
I heard about a case a few years back where a woman who claimed she was ultra sensitive to every chemical in existance actually required her employer to provide a little trailer for her, with her own bathroom, so she could work outside the building, because the chemicals in the carpets, the bathroom cleaners, the toner in the printers, etc all made her sick - and her employer had to provide that for her. All the documents that she looked at had to be placed into individual plastic bags so she didn't have to handle them (traces of ink, someone's perfume, etc).
I'm sorry. I have no patience for shit like that. Women go into stalls to do their business, who cares that you see the feet of someone else next to you and they're pointed the wrong way. Just don't look. And if you're too sensitive to work around anything that has any kind of odor at all - you need to get a job where you can work from home.
I agree that accomodations like ramps and railings ought to be provided for people with physical handicaps, to a point - but if you need your own private bathroom or private office - nope. Go work someplace else. Industry should not be obligated to pay whatever it takes to make you happy.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:30:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 8:53:09 GMT -5
Anyone else thinking about sitting backwards next time they're in a public restroom??!?
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,070
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2013 8:55:40 GMT -5
I've honestly never looked at the direction people's feet are facing in the stalls. I find looking underneath the door for feet to be incredibly rude/gross so I just look for closed stall doors. Now thanks to YM I'll be paying attention. Just like I never paid attention to how people paid for their groceries till I read multiple bitch fests about foodstamps. Ya'll are turning me into a really nosy person!
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jun 14, 2013 9:21:13 GMT -5
And I still think totally enclosing the stalls so you can't see each other's feet is about the silliest solution they could've come up with. I think it would work, because if it is done right it sounds like it would be like a home bathroom. IE a room with walls and a door that locks that happens to have a toilet and a sink in it. So as long as they close the door I would think everyone would be fine with it. that is actually the only way unisex bathrooms are allowed in NJ and I thought we were the most hippy dippy state. So the employer can have a unisex bathroom as long as it only has one toilet in it with it's own door to the entire room but you can't just slap a sign on a worman's/men's room with multiple stalls and call it a unisex bathroom. I also think it is bad management to get pissed at the people who complained and act like they are unprofessional for not being okay with it. If it was about any other place in the office, like the lunch room or bullpen fine, but the bathroom is the one place where people have to literally take off their clothes. I can see how they feel vulnerable and uncomfortable doing that around someone of the other sex.
|
|
sheilaincali
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 17:55:24 GMT -5
Posts: 4,131
|
Post by sheilaincali on Jun 14, 2013 9:35:22 GMT -5
My BIL's mom refused to clean up boy pee in the bathroom so she taught both of her sons to pee sitting down. So does that mean that the men in the men's bathroom should be weirded out because my BIL sits down to pee? Incidentally my DSis (BIL's wife) potty trained their son pee sitting down as well.
How many of us know women (or ourselves) who have used the men's bathroom because the line for the ladies bathroom was too long?
Personally it wouldn't bother me one bit if a transgendered mtf woman wanted to use the same bathroom as me.
So long as she flushes the toilet and doesn't pee on the seat I'm all good. Frankly I have had to follow some women in to the bathroom that haven't had that same courtesy. At the movies last weekend 11 of the 12 stalls were nasty because the women that finished using them didn't bother to flush or walked away with those paper seat things still on the seat dangling into the pee filled toilet. So yeah as long as you take care of your business and leave the stall in good condition for the next person I don't care who pees next to me.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 6, 2024 12:30:03 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 9:40:10 GMT -5
I like to think of myself as pretty compassionate and socially liberal, but for me: penis = men vagina = woman
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 9:43:56 GMT -5
And I still think totally enclosing the stalls so you can't see each other's feet is about the silliest solution they could've come up with. I think it would work, because if it is done right it sounds like it would be like a home bathroom. IE a room with walls and a door that locks that happens to have a toilet and a sink in it. So as long as they close the door I would think everyone would be fine with it. that is actually the only way unisex bathrooms are allowed in NJ and I thought we were the most hippy dippy state. So the employer can have a unisex bathroom as long as it only has one toilet in it with it's own door to the entire room but you can't just slap a sign on a worman's/men's room with multiple stalls and call it a unisex bathroom. I also think it is bad management to get pissed at the people who complained and act like they are unprofessional for not being okay with it. If it was about any other place in the office, like the lunch room or bullpen fine, but the bathroom is the one place where people have to literally take off their clothes. I can see how they feel vulnerable and uncomfortable doing that around someone of the other sex. Ok, something like you are describing (walls and an actual door) I would be fine with. Our bathroom stalls have a foot gap on the bottom and there are gaps on teh sides of the doors (small gaps but still gaps...and I've seen these same gaps in almost every bathroom that has stalls). nothing significant but enough that if I look I can see the person in the stall. I would not be ok with a genetic male in that kind of a bathroom with me. And I couldn't agree more about bad management (especially taking it to the extent of firing an employee!) over this issue. I do not complain EVER at work. I have put up with shit that I probably shouldn't have to put up with. I either handle it myself or I deal with it. But this is an issue that I would absolutely not be ok with. I don't care that a lot of you liberal people are ok with it, I'm not and I shouldn't be forced to be just so I can say I'm PC. Luckily I do work for a great company and the approach would never be "if you complain we will fire you for irritating us'....I am feeling more and more blessed each day for working where I do!
|
|