Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 18:35:04 GMT -5
And what if I feel humiliated having to share the bathroom with what I perceive to be a man? His rights trump mine? Actually they don't, not legally in my state. The only wa around this would be a unisex bathroom. Legally I would have no argument then. Until then, his man parts had best stay out if the women's bathroom or HR would have a nightmare on their hands. Not by me ( I actually am quite professional at work!) but our older clerks would have a flipping fit if management told them they had to share a bathroom with a person they identify as a man I hear you and understand. Sometimes there's no easy choice and both sides have very valid points. I guess if I had to choose, though, I'd say that your rights to use the bathroom with only people that you perceive to be women do not supercede another person's right to be treated as the gender they feel they are and not be insulted for it. What if the law is on my side? As an employer, would that change your mind?? From a liability standpoint I mean?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 18:42:08 GMT -5
And what if I feel humiliated having to share the bathroom with what I perceive to be a man? His rights trump mine? Actually they don't, not legally in my state. The only wa around this would be a unisex bathroom. Legally I would have no argument then. Until then, his man parts had best stay out if the women's bathroom or HR would have a nightmare on their hands. Not by me ( I actually am quite professional at work!) but our older clerks would have a flipping fit if management told them they had to share a bathroom with a person they identify as a man I hear you and understand. Sometimes there's no easy choice and both sides have very valid points. I guess if I had to choose, though, I'd say that your rights to use the bathroom with only people that you perceive to be women do not supercede another person's right to be treated as the gender they feel they are and not be insulted for it. I guess that's what bothers me about it, that I couldn't articulate. Does one group's rights trump another. If there are laws about who can use restrooms designated by gender, what's the point? Anybody can say, well I'm really a man/woman on the inside. Anyway, when I heard the story it was interesting to me and I was curious about what other people thought.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 18:45:26 GMT -5
And I still think totally enclosing the stalls so you can't see each other's feet is about the silliest solution they could've come up with.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 13, 2013 18:49:29 GMT -5
I hear you and understand. Sometimes there's no easy choice and both sides have very valid points. I guess if I had to choose, though, I'd say that your rights to use the bathroom with only people that you perceive to be women do not supercede another person's right to be treated as the gender they feel they are and not be insulted for it. What if the law is on my side? As an employer, would that change your mind?? From a liability standpoint I mean? Apparently, the burden on the employer would be pretty onerous, but the court's solution wouldn't be to send the transgendered person back to the men's room: data.lambdalegal.org/publications/downloads/trt_equal-access-to-public-restrooms.pdf"What should an employer do when a non-transgender employee complains about being uncomfortable sharing bathrooms with a trangender employee? Employers need to offer an alternative to the complaining employee in such a situation, such as an individual restroom. It isn't the job of the transgender person to do the accommodating. (This was affirmed in a 2002 Minnesota federal appeals court ruling in the case of Cruzan v. Special School District, #1.)"
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Jun 13, 2013 18:50:14 GMT -5
I have always wondered were transgendered folks go to relieve themselves?
This is going to sound so reactionary, and I don't believe in God, but you were made one way (you may feel the opposite way inside), but on the outside you either have a cock or a cu...err, vagina. Don't make 99.99999 per cent of the rest of us try to accommodate you.
What ever you are outwardly...that is the bathroom you go to. It really isn't a huge sacrifice.
Living in a war zone, when your town is being bombed to smithereens and the rape gangs are on your heels...and you don't know if you will eat or drink nothing but dirty water tomorrow...that I would be worried about, that is sacrifice.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 13, 2013 18:58:44 GMT -5
Another potential problem is that as this person transitions, men might start to complain as well.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 19:23:13 GMT -5
And I still think totally enclosing the stalls so you can't see each other's feet is about the silliest solution they could've come up with. I can appreciate both sides of the discussion here. Obviously there are no urinals in the women's restroom(s). So a transgender male-to-female is going to use a stall. If the transgender male-to-female is required to use the men's room, he will still use a stall and not the urinal. Then I thought about porta-potties. What's the difference of say the transgender male-to-female using the stalls in the ladies or men's room and porta-potties? There really is minimal privacy in a porta-potty (I can hear you next door!). I can see you entering andexitig the porta-potty and if I enter it right after you used it, I might have a good idea what business you just did. Of course many folks won't use a porta-potty. But in an emergency....any port in the storm (so to speak). Anyway, the below is pretty much the women's restroom but just outdoors.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 19:30:05 GMT -5
It is (still) very rude to use birth pronouns when a person has explained what pronouns they prefer.
And those advocating that people must use their birth gender bathrooms actually only want people to use the bathroom *you* think they belong in. Dh was getting berated about using the womens room years before the word trans ever crossed his lips. You'd lose your shiznit if he tried to use the ladies room now.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 19:39:26 GMT -5
It is (still) very rude to use birth pronouns when a person has explained what pronouns they prefer. And those advocating that people must use their birth gender bathrooms actually only want people to use the bathroom *you* think they belong in. Dh was getting berated about using the womens room years before the word trans ever crossed his lips. You'd lose your shiznit if he tried to use the ladies room now. If you're 'scolding' me about the pronoun (he), I slipped. But if you see my post on page one, I did use the correct pronoun. Mean coupa.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 19:47:04 GMT -5
I don't think it was you Tenn. Multiple posters are only and intentionally using male pronouns. I was scolded for slinging insults yesterday when I guessed why someone would insist on doing that. So today I'll just ask. Why use male pronouns for transwomen and vice versa? I'm not talking about a slip which happens to everyone, but people who acknowledge a person is trans, but don't feel it necessary to use his/her preferred pronouns.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 19:55:07 GMT -5
I don't think it was you Tenn. Multiple posters are only and intentionally using male pronouns. I was scolded for slinging insults yesterday when I guessed why someone would insist on doing that. So today I'll just ask. Why use male pronouns for transwomen and vice versa? I'm not talking about a slip which happens to everyone, but people who acknowledge a person is trans, but don't feel it necessary to use his/her preferred pronouns. Transgenders (in transition) in the workplace are a relatively new phenomena. It will take some time for folks to get accustomed to it. Give everyone some time.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Jun 13, 2013 19:59:25 GMT -5
I don't think it was you Tenn. Multiple posters are only and intentionally using male pronouns. I was scolded for slinging insults yesterday when I guessed why someone would insist on doing that. So today I'll just ask. Why use male pronouns for transwomen and vice versa? I'm not talking about a slip which happens to everyone, but people who acknowledge a person is trans, but don't feel it necessary to use his/her preferred pronouns. My reason was a combination of clarity, thoughtlessness and laziness. Clarity: I was using she to talk about the ladies who were complaining and it would have been confusing to use she to talk about the transgendered person as well. Thoughtlessness: I didn't really think about it in the post where I did it. Thank you for calling it to my attention. It wasn't intentional, but it was thoughtless on my part.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 20:08:30 GMT -5
I don't think it was you Tenn. Multiple posters are only and intentionally using male pronouns. I was scolded for slinging insults yesterday when I guessed why someone would insist on doing that. So today I'll just ask. Why use male pronouns for transwomen and vice versa? I'm not talking about a slip which happens to everyone, but people who acknowledge a person is trans, but don't feel it necessary to use his/her preferred pronouns. Transgenders (in transition) in the workplace are a relatively new phenomena. It will take some time for folks to get accustomed to it. Give everyone some time. I know. I'm just tired and crabby tonight. Our experience was so positive. There was only one doctor who *couldn't remember* to use the right name/pronoun and was snide about everything. There was one other doctor who really struggled with Dh's change and slipped up all the time, but tried and was respectful. Everyone else was supportive and awesome, plus he started getting a lot of raises. They also had single stall bathrooms so this was never an issue at work. Of all people I really do know that this can be a difficult idea to swallow, but like Milee said this isn't about us, or just a transgender, but about a human being. A person who isn't hurting (general) you. Even if (general) you disagree with a person's choice to transition, why make it harder for them?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 20:12:08 GMT -5
I'm rarely rude or insulting to people that haven't offended me first. But yes, I repeatedly referred to the person as "he". Frankly, I didn't know which pronoun was suppose to be appropriate. I have a hard time referring to someone that looks like a man and stands up to pee as "she". Even IRL. Sorry.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 20:13:55 GMT -5
What if the law is on my side? As an employer, would that change your mind?? From a liability standpoint I mean? Apparently, the burden on the employer would be pretty onerous, but the court's solution wouldn't be to send the transgendered person back to the men's room: data.lambdalegal.org/publications/downloads/trt_equal-access-to-public-restrooms.pdf"What should an employer do when a non-transgender employee complains about being uncomfortable sharing bathrooms with a trangender employee? Employers need to offer an alternative to the complaining employee in such a situation, such as an individual restroom. It isn't the job of the transgender person to do the accommodating. (This was affirmed in a 2002 Minnesota federal appeals court ruling in the case of Cruzan v. Special School District, #1.)" You cited one case hat supports your view. I can't post links but continue googlmg...Utah 2007 am went the other way. And NyC appeals court upheld a building owners right to not allow a a person genetically of the opposite sex (trying not to offend!) to use a bathroom of he other genetic sex
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 20:14:38 GMT -5
I meant to say I'm rarely intentionally rude.....
I can't edit for some reason.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 20:15:31 GMT -5
I'm rarely rude or insulting to people that haven't offended me first. But yes, I repeatedly referred to the person as "he". Frankly, I didn't know which pronoun was suppose to be appropriate. I have a hard time referring to someone that looks like a man and stands up to pee as "she". Even IRL. Sorry. I'm confused....If he hasn't had the surgery he is legally a he, right? I'm so confused....
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 20:16:18 GMT -5
My iPhone is going nuts...sorry for all the crazy autocorrects that make my posts hard to read
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 20:17:05 GMT -5
I'm rarely rude or insulting to people that haven't offended me first. But yes, I repeatedly referred to the person as "he". Frankly, I didn't know which pronoun was suppose to be appropriate. I have a hard time referring to someone that looks like a man and stands up to pee as "she". Even IRL. Sorry. I'm confused....If he hasn't had the surgery he is legally a he, right? I'm so confused.... That was my line of thinking. I'm confused too.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 20:17:57 GMT -5
I'm confused....If he hasn't had the surgery he is legally a he, right? I'm so confused.... That was my line of thinking. I'm confused too. At least it's not just me!lol
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 13, 2013 20:22:08 GMT -5
I hear you and understand. Sometimes there's no easy choice and both sides have very valid points. I guess if I had to choose, though, I'd say that your rights to use the bathroom with only people that you perceive to be women do not supercede another person's right to be treated as the gender they feel they are and not be insulted for it. What if the law is on my side? As an employer, would that change your mind?? From a liability standpoint I mean? As I said, I don't like to promulgate or tolerate extended complaining about anything that's not work related, so my first move would be to make every single bathroom in the joint unisex so the law wouldn't be an issue. And then, quite frankly, I'd assess which employee was more valuable (the complainer or the transgender) and get rid of the other one for other, very valid and well documented reasons. I run a business, not a social experiment. Betcha didn't see that one coming. And yes, it's not nice but it's how employers operate. If you want to do it differently, you need to run your own business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 20:27:00 GMT -5
Wow. That's kind of scary.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 13, 2013 20:34:58 GMT -5
Wow. That's kind of scary. Benevolent dictator.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 20:35:51 GMT -5
It isn't what's in your pants that make you who you are. For example: Women who get mastectomys are still women. Surgery is a part of many if not most trans peoples transitions, but it is not the defining moment from what I've seen. Hormones are what I consider the bulk of transition. And admittedly I havent spent much time with mtf's during transition so I could be off base. Susanb-your post was so thoughtful, and I liked your previous points about how to deal with this from managements perspective. Pink-you've never come across as rude. It sounds like this is 3rd hand information. My first thought when I read the post is that her coworkers are ignoring her requests to use the appropriate name/pronoun or to acknowledge her transition at all. She may have gone about her work transition very poorly and is just hoping people will catch on. But if they are waiting for her to look like a typical feminine woman it could be a long wait.. The standing to pee baffles me, but I know a ton of women who are so grossed out by public bathrooms they'd pee standing up if it were possible/easier. So maybe she is just also grossed out.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 20:37:40 GMT -5
Transgenders (in transition) in the workplace are a relatively new phenomena. It will take some time for folks to get accustomed to it. Give everyone some time. I know. I'm just tired and crabby tonight. Our experience was so positive. There was only one doctor who *couldn't remember* to use the right name/pronoun and was snide about everything. There was one other doctor who really struggled with Dh's change and slipped up all the time, but tried and was respectful. Everyone else was supportive and awesome, plus he started getting a lot of raises. They also had single stall bathrooms so this was never an issue at work. Of all people I really do know that this can be a difficult idea to swallow, but like Milee said this isn't about us, or just a transgender, but about a human being. A person who isn't hurting (general) you. Even if (general) you disagree with a person's choice to transition, why make it harder for them? You both hang in there. We all have to make our own way the best we can through this one life given to us. It will be just fine.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 20:40:24 GMT -5
What if the law is on my side? As an employer, would that change your mind?? From a liability standpoint I mean? As I said, I don't like to promulgate or tolerate extended complaining about anything that's not work related, so my first move would be to make every single bathroom in the joint unisex so the law wouldn't be an issue. And then, quite frankly, I'd assess which employee was more valuable (the complainer or the transgender) and get rid of the other one for other, very valid and well documented reasons. I run a business, not a social experiment. Betcha didn't see that one coming. And yes, it's not nice but it's how employers operate. If you want to do it differently, you need to run your own business. I have told you before that I would never work for you or someone like you so I have no doubt that you would fire someone just for annoying you. Luckily I know I'm valuable to my company so I would t fear for my job over something I have every legal right to complain about....and if they did fire me for it, I would be getting the best attorney out there and I'm pretty sure I would win ;-)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 20:47:47 GMT -5
Thanks Tenn! We are and have been so lucky. Dh has passed so well for so long it can be hard to remember what those early years were like.
I know not everyone gets that luck though, and when I'm not crabby I usually just want to help demonstrate how normal and boring our alternative lifestyle is.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 13, 2013 20:48:37 GMT -5
I don't think it was you Tenn. Multiple posters are only and intentionally using male pronouns. I was scolded for slinging insults yesterday when I guessed why someone would insist on doing that. So today I'll just ask. Why use male pronouns for transwomen and vice versa? I'm not talking about a slip which happens to everyone, but people who acknowledge a person is trans, but don't feel it necessary to use his/her preferred pronouns. So what do you call someone that is partially through the process? Let me preface this in that with my experience, despite this person having long hair and wearing a dress, you would see them as a male. Their hands, walk, voice and mannerisms were all recognizable as male. From what I understand, the transgendered person needs have to live as the new gender for a period of time before any surgery, so technically, they ARE still male. One does just automatically switch pronouns, especially when the external cues you receive from the person are conflicting? It is not quite so easy as you'd think.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 13, 2013 20:54:50 GMT -5
I know first hand how incredibly difficult changing names and pronouns are, having gone through it with a half dozen people including my spouse who I wasn't really thrilled about the changes.
But you use the name and pronoun that the person requests that you do. If you're not sure, ask. How difficult do you think it is to live in a gender when others won't even acknowledge it? Or apparently let you use the bathroom.
I've misread people and sir'd women. I apologize and move on working to be more careful in the future.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 20:57:51 GMT -5
Grrr....I can't edit my post from my phone!
I wanted to point out that miles can run her company like she does because she has a very small company with few employees. She can be the queen there. I work for large company that is part of a group of companies owned by a publicly traded parent company. My boss wouldn't give a shit if I irritated HR by standing behind a LAW....then again, my company wouldn't put themselves at risk by allowing something that could get them sued.
Thank god I work for a large organization and not a small business owner who acts like a dictator
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