Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 12:02:18 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the school couldn't have found a place for this lady that maybe wasn't placing others at risk. At least temporarily. I understand that bad things could still happen and I know ZERO about private (or public) schools. I'm just wondering if maybe they could have added her to the curriculum staff or something - getting her out of the classroom, at least until the situation was resolved. It's not a perfect situation and may very well not even be doable. I just feel so bad for her. I'm reaching. I know. Great suggestion. A shame the school system didn't think of or consider it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 13, 2013 12:02:33 GMT -5
That's not my argument. It's yours. You made it up and assigned it to me. I reject the assignment. So you do consider the man a credible threat? Let me get some perspective another way. Suppose you're the diocese. Give me a one-paragraph summary of what you'd write to concerned parents about what the situation is and how you're handling it. I'll read it when I get back. So show us the better mousetrap. You're writing to the concerned parents. What measures have you put in place and what do you say to them?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:04:25 GMT -5
This woman wasn't married to the ONLY nut in the world. Security should be very high priority, IMO. Yes, I'm willing to pay for it. As these California parents (of these Catholic school students) pay federal, state (some states) local city taxes, and their taxes pay to support public schools, then I would think they could get local police protection (if necessary) to guard the school. Where is the money going to come from to place armed security details at our schools as a result of the Newtown school shooting? It is going to come from our paid taxes. And the protection of the schools shouldn't just be limited to public schools (and probably won't be). As I said, ours was a small, private hospital. We didn't have tons of money, either. Our security system was put in place with the help of local businesses that we actively beat about the head and shoulders until they agreed to help. We never had a problem with response from our local police. They were always Johnny-on-the-spot and very helpful. It's a community effort and requires a good deal of footwork and cajoling, but it can be done.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:06:30 GMT -5
As these California parents (of these Catholic school students) pay federal, state (some states) local city taxes, and their taxes pay to support public schools, then I would think they could get local police protection (if necessary) to guard the school. Where is the money going to come from to place armed security details at our schools as a result of the Newtown school shooting? It is going to come from our paid taxes. And the protection of the schools shouldn't just be limited to public schools (and probably won't be). As I said, ours was a small, private hospital. We didn't have tons of money, either. Our security system was put in place with the help of local businesses that we actively beat about the head and shoulders until they agreed to help. We never had a problem with response from our local police. They were always Johnny-on-the-spot and very helpful. It's a community effort and requires a good deal of footwork and cajoling, but it can be done. We have several small hospitals locally and they all have armed security guards. I'm pretty sure that is a given when you are dealing with the tweakers and such that go into the ER....tons of meds available so without armed guards you are just asking to get your asses robbed.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:08:31 GMT -5
That's not my argument. It's yours. You made it up and assigned it to me. I reject the assignment. So you do consider the man a credible threat? Let me get some perspective another way. Suppose you're the diocese. Give me a one-paragraph summary of what you'd write to concerned parents about what the situation is and how you're handling it. I'll read it when I get back. So show us the better mousetrap. You're writing to the concerned parents. What measures have you put in place and what do you say to them? I wouldn't write a letter to the concerned parents. There would be a meeting of staff and parents and the meeting would be mandatory. The more heads you get together, the more likely you are to come up with the best solution to your problem, whatever that problem might be. I don't imagine myself to be so omnipotent and omniscient I can come up with that "better mousetrap" all by my lonesome. YMMV. I've already outlined the measures we had in place at the hospital. What would work for this school, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know. I've never seen the school and don't know anything about it. Those decisions should be made by people who do.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 13, 2013 12:09:08 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the school couldn't have found a place for this lady that maybe wasn't placing others at risk. At least temporarily. I understand that bad things could still happen and I know ZERO about private (or public) schools. I'm just wondering if maybe they could have added her to the curriculum staff or something - getting her out of the classroom, at least until the situation was resolved. It's not a perfect situation and may very well not even be doable. I just feel so bad for her. I'm reaching. I know. The only way they could pull this off is to look like assholes and say "We're cutting this woman loose. She'll never teach with us again.", to keep the Catholic church from being targeted.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:09:56 GMT -5
So you do consider the man a credible threat? Let me get some perspective another way. Suppose you're the diocese. Give me a one-paragraph summary of what you'd write to concerned parents about what the situation is and how you're handling it. I'll read it when I get back. So show us the better mousetrap. You're writing to the concerned parents. What measures have you put in place and what do you say to them? I wouldn't write a letter to the concerned parents. There would be a meeting of staff and parents and the meeting would be mandatory. The more heads you get together, the more likely you are to come up with the best solution to your problem, whatever that problem might be. I don't imagine myself to be so omnipotent and omniscient I can come up with that "better mousetrap" all by my lonesome. YMMV. I've already outlined the measures we had in place at the hospital. What would work for this school, I'm not arrogant enough to think I know. I've never seen the school and don't know anything about it. Those decisions should be made by people who do. It sounds like the decision was made by the people who do know what the school could handle...yet you choose to disagree that they handled it properly (at least, I "think" you disagree)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 13, 2013 12:12:02 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the school couldn't have found a place for this lady that maybe wasn't placing others at risk. At least temporarily. I understand that bad things could still happen and I know ZERO about private (or public) schools. I'm just wondering if maybe they could have added her to the curriculum staff or something - getting her out of the classroom, at least until the situation was resolved. It's not a perfect situation and may very well not even be doable. I just feel so bad for her. I'm reaching. I know. Great suggestion. A shame the school system didn't think of or consider it. As a manager, I had the same thought. Maybe I would research some schools that did on-line teaching and called all my contacts to see if anyone could help this woman getting a job in a circumstance that wouldn't put anyone at risk. Maybe I could find someone in the diocese that knew someone at a text book publisher, or something. I would try and get creative and see if I could give her a soft-landing. If this school is very small, they might not be able to afford to keep her on-staff without her in the classroom, but with the contacts of an entire catholic population, you would think you could help her out more than a letter which kicks her out. It would be a Christian thing to do. I've known two people that were in a dangerous situation. One of them changed her name and moved to the next town over. She put both names on all of her job applications and everything. It would have been pretty darn easy to find her. I asked why she didn't make more of an effort, and her answer was that her ex was slightly more lazy than he was vindictive (and he was very vindictive.) So, as long as he had to do a little work to find her, he wouldn't bother.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:13:06 GMT -5
As I said, ours was a small, private hospital. We didn't have tons of money, either. Our security system was put in place with the help of local businesses that we actively beat about the head and shoulders until they agreed to help. We never had a problem with response from our local police. They were always Johnny-on-the-spot and very helpful. It's a community effort and requires a good deal of footwork and cajoling, but it can be done. We have several small hospitals locally and they all have armed security guards. I'm pretty sure that is a given when you are dealing with the tweakers and such that go into the ER....tons of meds available so without armed guards you are just asking to get your asses robbed. It was never about worry about being robbed. That can happen anywhere. Before the "tweakers" got to the ER, they were somewhere else Jonesing for a fix. That's the most likely place for them to rob somebody. We were more concerned with threats to our patients that were exactly like the threats purportedly made toward this woman. I can only think of a couple of times we had to call the police because we had a thief. Most of the time, it was a domestic violence situation, or something similar, and it wasn't a rarity.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:15:46 GMT -5
We have several small hospitals locally and they all have armed security guards. I'm pretty sure that is a given when you are dealing with the tweakers and such that go into the ER....tons of meds available so without armed guards you are just asking to get your asses robbed. It was never about worry about being robbed. That can happen anywhere. Before the "tweakers" got to the ER, they were somewhere else Jonesing for a fix. That's the most likely place for them to rob somebody. We were more concerned with threats to our patients that were exactly like the threats purportedly made toward this woman. I can only think of a couple of times we had to call the police because we had a thief. Most of the time, it was a domestic violence situation, or something similar, and it wasn't a rarity. But do you see the difference between your hospital and a typical school (not talking urban getting school). By your own admission, it wasn't a rarity for your hospital to deal with domestic violence or similar situations...it IS a rarity for a school to handle something like that. A school, especially a small private school, can't be expected to be able to deal with the situation in the same way that your hospital is.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2013 12:16:37 GMT -5
The more heads you get together, the more likely you are to come up with the best solution to your problem, whatever that problem might be
So what if the majority of parents say fire her? How many paying parents do you want to risk losing?
Once again this isn't a public school. I can bitch about a property tax hike but since the entire area votes on it I'm probably going to be over-rided. If I want to keep my house I pay it. The public schools here can afford to take the risk of keeping her on and hire more security to boot because it's not like their funding is at risk.
In private school you rely on parents paying the bill. You rely on having enough students to cover your costs It doesn't take a lot to start doing damage.
Is one teacher really worth putting the entire school at risk?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:17:04 GMT -5
I see the decision they made as victimizing the victim. I'd turn myself inside out to avoid doing that, I'll admit. I'll also admit I don't know if there was something else they could have done. I don't know if the school is somewhat rural, or in a city. As I said to Virgil, I'm not looking to assess blame. I find that a useless passtime. I prefer to look for ideas and solutions that are the very best we can do, not just a cork in a never-ending flow of garbage. Some of that solution lies in our laws regarding domestic abuse. Some of it lies in our violence-prone society. There are no easy answers. Of that, I'm aware.
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deantrip
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Post by deantrip on Jun 13, 2013 12:17:35 GMT -5
So the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego operates 90 different schools from elementary to university, yeah I am sure they had nowhere else to transition her to another job! edited to add link to San Diego Diocese www.diocese-sdiego.org/aboutcdsd.aspx
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:18:29 GMT -5
I see the decision they made as victimizing the victim. I'd turn myself inside out to avoid doing that, I'll admit. I'll also admit I don't know if there was something else they could have done. I don't know if the school is somewhat rural, or in a city. As I said to Virgil, I'm not looking to assess blame. I find that a useless passtime. I prefer to look for ideas and solutions that are the very best we can do, not just a cork in a never-ending flow of garbage. Some of that solution lies in our laws regarding domestic abuse. Some of it lies in our violence-prone society. There are no easy answers. Of that, I'm aware. We definitely agree that there are no easy answers.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:18:30 GMT -5
The more heads you get together, the more likely you are to come up with the best solution to your problem, whatever that problem might be
So what if the majority of parents say fire her? How many paying parents do you want to risk losing? Once again this isn't a public school. I can bitch about a property tax hike but since the entire area votes on it I'm probably going to be over-rided. If I want to keep my house I pay it. The public schools here can afford to take the risk of keeping her on and hire more security to boot because it's not like their funding is at risk. In private school you rely on parents paying the bill. You rely on having enough students to cover your costs It doesn't take a lot to start doing damage. Is one teacher really worth putting the entire school at risk? I don't do what-ifs, Drama. While I understand the school's position, victimizing the victim isn't acceptable to me. There's got to be a better answer, and I'm not talking about just this one case.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:21:11 GMT -5
It was never about worry about being robbed. That can happen anywhere. Before the "tweakers" got to the ER, they were somewhere else Jonesing for a fix. That's the most likely place for them to rob somebody. We were more concerned with threats to our patients that were exactly like the threats purportedly made toward this woman. I can only think of a couple of times we had to call the police because we had a thief. Most of the time, it was a domestic violence situation, or something similar, and it wasn't a rarity. But do you see the difference between your hospital and a typical school (not talking urban getting school). By your own admission, it wasn't a rarity for your hospital to deal with domestic violence or similar situations...it IS a rarity for a school to handle something like that. A school, especially a small private school, can't be expected to be able to deal with the situation in the same way that your hospital is. Nor, did I say the school SHOULD do what we did. Schools and hospitals deal with one major issue that makes them similar. They're filled with vulnerable souls. Security, therefore, is vitally important.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 12:22:18 GMT -5
Great suggestion. A shame the school system didn't think of or consider it. As a manager, I had the same thought. Maybe I would research some schools that did on-line teaching and called all my contacts to see if anyone could help this woman getting a job in a circumstance that wouldn't put anyone at risk. Maybe I could find someone in the diocese that knew someone at a text book publisher, or something. I would try and get creative and see if I could give her a soft-landing. If this school is very small, they might not be able to afford to keep her on-staff without her in the classroom, but with the contacts of an entire catholic population, you would think you could help her out more than a letter which kicks her out. It would be a Christian thing to do. I've known two people that were in a dangerous situation. One of them changed her name and moved to the next town over. She put both names on all of her job applications and everything. It would have been pretty darn easy to find her. I asked why she didn't make more of an effort, and her answer was that her ex was slightly more lazy than he was vindictive (and he was very vindictive.) So, as long as he had to do a little work to find her, he wouldn't bother. I thought about the name change too. But this teacher also has 4 kids and they could be easy to track down to get at the mother.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:23:30 GMT -5
But do you see the difference between your hospital and a typical school (not talking urban getting school). By your own admission, it wasn't a rarity for your hospital to deal with domestic violence or similar situations...it IS a rarity for a school to handle something like that. A school, especially a small private school, can't be expected to be able to deal with the situation in the same way that your hospital is. Nor, did I say the school SHOULD do what we did. Schools and hospitals deal with one major issue that makes them similar. They're filled with vulnerable souls. Security, therefore, is vitally important. Agreed.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:24:23 GMT -5
As a manager, I had the same thought. Maybe I would research some schools that did on-line teaching and called all my contacts to see if anyone could help this woman getting a job in a circumstance that wouldn't put anyone at risk. Maybe I could find someone in the diocese that knew someone at a text book publisher, or something. I would try and get creative and see if I could give her a soft-landing. If this school is very small, they might not be able to afford to keep her on-staff without her in the classroom, but with the contacts of an entire catholic population, you would think you could help her out more than a letter which kicks her out. It would be a Christian thing to do. I've known two people that were in a dangerous situation. One of them changed her name and moved to the next town over. She put both names on all of her job applications and everything. It would have been pretty darn easy to find her. I asked why she didn't make more of an effort, and her answer was that her ex was slightly more lazy than he was vindictive (and he was very vindictive.) So, as long as he had to do a little work to find her, he wouldn't bother. I thought about the name change too. But this teacher also has 4 kids and they could be easy to track down to get at the mother. Am I the only one wondering why, if this guy has 20 years of abusing her, did she go on to have 4 kids iwth him? I'm not blaming the victim but I dont' get why women stay.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2013 12:24:23 GMT -5
Unfortunately for all parties involved this isn't a black/white decision.
I've been there with a friend of mine. His boyfriend started stalking and threatening my life/safety. I was young and naive and thought I was doing the right thing. After all it's wrong to cut off contact, I'm just making things worse for him.
Fast foward nine years and he appears in my life again. I invite him in. An hour later his sister shows up saying yet another crazy ex has figured out where he lives and is on their doorstep so don't come home.
So the "right" thing to do is offer my house as a safe place right? Shoving him out the door is putting him at risk right?
I have a husband now and a 2 year old daughter I have to consider. I know my friend's exes, there is a very real risk this guy will show up on my doorstep.
My responsibility whether anyone else agrees with it is to my husband and daughter. I turned my friend loose and decided I'm done for good with him this time.
The school is in a similar position on a grander scale. It's awesome to be able to sit there and tell people they should "do the right thing" when you're not the person who's putting it on the line.
It sucks, it really sucks and I felt terrible for doing it but his problems shouldn't be putting us at risk too.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 13, 2013 12:25:24 GMT -5
Exactly, mmhmm. And there IS a better answer and it lies in the punishment of the perpetrator. It's beyond my understanding why this isn't on the top of the stack of the lawmakers' "to do" list, but I do know it is difficult to fully understand how many people are truly hurt when domestic abuse is allowed to continue with such light penalities unless it happens to them. Up close and personal, it's easy to comprehend.
If I were a lesser person, I'd wish that everyone who takes this situation lightly get one or two black eyes because dinner was pork instead of chicken. But? Even I'm not that vindictive and mean. Most of the time.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:26:15 GMT -5
I thought about the name change too. But this teacher also has 4 kids and they could be easy to track down to get at the mother. Am I the only one wondering why, if this guy has 20 years of abusing her, did she go on to have 4 kids iwth him? I'm not blaming the victim but I dont' get why women stay. From what I read, MT, he wasn't abusing her for 20 years. He had a history of abuse with other women, prior to her. She may have known nothing about that history.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 13, 2013 12:26:28 GMT -5
I thought about the name change too. But this teacher also has 4 kids and they could be easy to track down to get at the mother. My friend changed the last name of her children as well. She didn't feel it was a totally foolproof plan, but she just felt that her ex (not all) wouldn't go through the trouble. She also felt that if he was nosing around asking about her or the kids and using his last name, it would ring some alarm bells with people.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:28:52 GMT -5
Exactly, mmhmm. And there IS a better answer and it lies in the punishment of the perpetrator. It's beyond my understanding why this isn't on the top of the stack of the lawmakers' "to do" list, but I do know it is difficult to fully understand how many people are truly hurt when domestic abuse is allowed to continue with such light penalities unless it happens to them. Up close and personal, it's easy to comprehend.
If I were a lesser person, I'd wish that everyone who takes this situation lightly get one or two black eyes because dinner was pork instead of chicken. But? Even I'm not that vindictive and mean. Most of the time.
The difference is, the first time I got a black eye for any reason would be the minute my husband's ass lands in jail. And I would be armed and waiting for when he got out of jail and was looking to take a shot at me again. I do understand that PFAs are meaningless and sometimes you just have to defend yourself. For those of us that aren't willing to put up with abuse, it is very hard to understand a woman who is. I see it in my ex-bff...nothing to this extent but he has gotten physical with her on many occasions, she files PFA's and then let's him back in. While no one deserves to be hit, you are setting yoruself up for abuse if you continue to take it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:29:20 GMT -5
Am I the only one wondering why, if this guy has 20 years of abusing her, did she go on to have 4 kids iwth him? I'm not blaming the victim but I dont' get why women stay. From what I read, MT, he wasn't abusing her for 20 years. He had a history of abuse with other women, prior to her. She may have known nothing about that history. Gotcha
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 12:29:23 GMT -5
Exactly, mmhmm. And there IS a better answer and it lies in the punishment of the perpetrator. It's beyond my understanding why this isn't on the top of the stack of the lawmakers' "to do" list, but I do know it is difficult to fully understand how many people are truly hurt when domestic abuse is allowed to continue with such light penalities unless it happens to them. Up close and personal, it's easy to comprehend.
If I were a lesser person, I'd wish that everyone who takes this situation lightly get one or two black eyes because dinner was pork instead of chicken. But? Even I'm not that vindictive and mean. Most of the time.
Abso-damned-lutely! I've been a very vocal advocate for stronger punishment for domestic abuse for years. I've seen the results far too many times. If we don't stand up and shout and keep shouting, this sort of ugliness will continue. It's unacceptable.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 13, 2013 12:30:22 GMT -5
Great suggestion. A shame the school system didn't think of or consider it. As a manager, I had the same thought. Maybe I would research some schools that did on-line teaching and called all my contacts to see if anyone could help this woman getting a job in a circumstance that wouldn't put anyone at risk. Maybe I could find someone in the diocese that knew someone at a text book publisher, or something. I would try and get creative and see if I could give her a soft-landing. If this school is very small, they might not be able to afford to keep her on-staff without her in the classroom, but with the contacts of an entire catholic population, you would think you could help her out more than a letter which kicks her out. It would be a Christian thing to do. I've known two people that were in a dangerous situation. One of them changed her name and moved to the next town over. She put both names on all of her job applications and everything. It would have been pretty darn easy to find her. I asked why she didn't make more of an effort, and her answer was that her ex was slightly more lazy than he was vindictive (and he was very vindictive.) So, as long as he had to do a little work to find her, he wouldn't bother. If I were the bishop, I'd have the principal send out exactly the letter that was sent, instruct the teacher to get her and her kids's names changed, and get passports for her and the kids, and then start making discrete inquiries to find a safe place for this woman and her kids, preferrably in another country.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 13, 2013 12:30:23 GMT -5
I don't know. It's a tough situation for everyone. If I had a kid in a school, and the teacher was having personal problems, I shouldn't have to worry about sending my kid off to school every day worried that the teachers ex husband is going to show up and start shooting up the place. On the other hand, it sucks for someone to get fired for having a lousy ex husband.
I don't know, I guess if I had to choose I'd prioritize the children's safety over anything else. So I guess I have to agree with the decision, even though it sucks.
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Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 13, 2013 12:30:46 GMT -5
I thought about the name change too. But this teacher also has 4 kids and they could be easy to track down to get at the mother. Am I the only one wondering why, if this guy has 20 years of abusing her, did she go on to have 4 kids iwth him? I'm not blaming the victim but I dont' get why women stay. That's a WHOLENOTHER thread, Miss T, but I can tell you the reasons are as numerous as the leaves on a tree. None of them make any sense to the person not going through it, and they rarely make any sense to the victim once she/he has had the time to step back. They are there all the same.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:30:56 GMT -5
Exactly, mmhmm. And there IS a better answer and it lies in the punishment of the perpetrator. It's beyond my understanding why this isn't on the top of the stack of the lawmakers' "to do" list, but I do know it is difficult to fully understand how many people are truly hurt when domestic abuse is allowed to continue with such light penalities unless it happens to them. Up close and personal, it's easy to comprehend.
If I were a lesser person, I'd wish that everyone who takes this situation lightly get one or two black eyes because dinner was pork instead of chicken. But? Even I'm not that vindictive and mean. Most of the time.
Abso-damned-lutely! I've been a very vocal advocate for stronger punishment for domestic abuse for years. I've seen the results far too many times. If we don't stand up and shout and keep shouting, this sort of ugliness will continue. It's unacceptable. But it doesn't seem like standing up and shouting is doing much good. What about teaching these women about defending themselves?
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