Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 13, 2013 11:42:47 GMT -5
1. Fired teacher purchases and learns how to use a weapon of choice. A 9mm is an excellent choice. 2. Fired teacher takes her children to a safe place for a few days. 3. Fired teacher waits at home for the ex to show up - which, with history, is a pretty good bet. 4. Fired teacher blows his head off the minute he comes through her door. No jury will convict her of any crime. Problem solved. Or did you mean the school's options? As I said earlier, if a vigilante (and that includes the wife) put the man out of his misery, I doubt anybody would shed a tear for him. But yes, I was talking about the school's options.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2013 11:43:05 GMT -5
If the school can't provide the needed security, parents are going to have to pony up.
And what happens if enough parents say tough shit?
This is not a public school where an increase in property taxes can happen and unless I want to move to another city I'm going to have to pay it and 39.9% goes to the school system.
They lose enough people the school goes under.
I don't think it's the school's job to have to put everything on the line to make a societal statment. It'd be wonderful if they did but they have others to think about besides this one teacher.
That being said I get the concern of social workers that this will convince other women not to leave/report abuse. Abuse works by messing with the abused's head and stories like these feed into it.
It's a sucky situation but I don't feel the school has to be the one to shoulder that burden.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 13, 2013 11:44:39 GMT -5
The risk of some nut coming onto campus isn't reduced by firing a teacher. This guy could still show up, or some other nut could show up. Ahh, but don't increase MY costs! Noooo! Bah! Umm...I am all in favor of armed guards at every school. I would pay more for that because I do realize that there are crazies everywhere. Liberals would never go for it, though. What I am not in favor of is false security. Locking doors is not going to stop this guy. And there is a difference between a very small risk of some crazy targeting your school (Sandy Hook) and a very real risk of a deranged ex who is gunning for a teacher... I went to a univsity with armed police officers. Trust me when I say it made NO ONE feel safe.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 11:45:07 GMT -5
You're honestly claiming that an ex-husband who shows up armed with a weapon in spite of a restraining order categorically isn't a threat because the police could get there in ten minutes? Beam me up, Scotty. Make the "Oh suck it up, he isn't really a threat." argument all you like. If I was a member of the diocese or one of the parents whose kids' butts were on the line, I know where I'd tell you to stick it. Again, I made it clear I didn't know, for sure, how long it took for the police to get there. I just know they were there before the man got into the hospital. All outside doors were locked as soon as he was seen (save one that was double-guarded). I haven't made the claim the man wasn't a threat. We minimized the threat and the police neutralized it. Keep making it up. Maybe you can write a novel. And you were very lucky that the cops got there in time. You do realize that if they hadn't been able to get there in time, you would have had a very different outcome. I'm not willing to chance my child's safety on someone seeing this guy outside, calling police and them getting there all before this guy takes the 20 steps it takes to get into my child's school. My youngest's school is in the middle of a residential street. There are cars all over and people walk up and down the street. From the street there are 2 steps to get inside. Yes, doors are locked and you need to be buzzed in...but what are the odds that they have bullet proof glass or that the guy won't time it perfectly so he can sneak in with someone who is buzzed in? I've gotten there plenty of times when someone has already hit the button to get in and I go in with them. And that happened at their old school, too. Security isn't fool proof in schools
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:45:53 GMT -5
The risk of some nut coming onto campus isn't reduced by firing a teacher. This guy could still show up, or some other nut could show up. Ahh, but don't increase MY costs! Noooo! Bah! Umm...I am all in favor of armed guards at every school. I would pay more for that because I do realize that there are crazies everywhere. Liberals would never go for it, though. What I am not in favor of is false security. Locking doors is not going to stop this guy. And there is a difference between a very small risk of some crazy targeting your school (Sandy Hook) and a very real risk of a deranged ex who is gunning for a teacher... LOL! I'm so glad you said that! I've been accused of being a flaming liberal more times than I care to count! Locking doors stopped our guy. We don't know whether they would have stopped the guy in this case, or not. The school thought they would because it went into lockdown. We don't even know if the guy in this case was armed.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 11:46:09 GMT -5
If the school can't provide the needed security, parents are going to have to pony up.
And what happens if enough parents say tough shit? This is not a public school where an increase in property taxes can happen and unless I want to move to another city I'm going to have to pay it and 39.9% goes to the school system. They lose enough people the school goes under. I don't think it's the school's job to have to put everything on the line to make a societal statment. It'd be wonderful if they did but they have others to think about besides this one teacher. That being said I get the concern of social workers that this will convince other women not to leave/report abuse. Abuse works by messing with the abused's head and stories like these feed into it. It's a sucky situation but I don't feel the school has to be the one to shoulder that burden. It is obvious....we should just shut the school down so EVERYONE loses their jobs...
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deantrip
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Post by deantrip on Jun 13, 2013 11:46:26 GMT -5
If the school can't provide the needed security, parents are going to have to pony up.
And what happens if enough parents say tough shit? This is not a public school where an increase in property taxes can happen and unless I want to move to another city I'm going to have to pay it and 39.9% goes to the school system. They lose enough people the school goes under. I don't think it's the school's job to have to put everything on the line to make a societal statment. It'd be wonderful if they did but they have others to think about besides this one teacher. That being said I get the concern of social workers that this will convince other women not to leave/report abuse. Abuse works by messing with the abused's head and stories like these feed into it. It's a sucky situation but I don't feel the school has to be the one to shoulder that burden. Oh but it is a societal statement either way, especially when you are the Catholic Church, who all they do is make societal statements.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 11:46:53 GMT -5
What is really surprising is that the Diocese provided a reason for not renewing her contract. That's unusual in my area. Unless you have tenure, which requires them to give cause, you are simply non-renewed (or, more often, encouraged to resign after being told your contract would not be renewed).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 11:47:31 GMT -5
so to you it is better that EVERYONE pay more of their dollars to get more security that wouldnt be needed if she isnt teaching there?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 13, 2013 11:47:33 GMT -5
1. Fired teacher purchases and learns how to use a weapon of choice. A 9mm is an excellent choice. 2. Fired teacher takes her children to a safe place for a few days. 3. Fired teacher waits at home for the ex to show up - which, with history, is a pretty good bet. 4. Fired teacher blows his head off the minute he comes through her door. No jury will convict her of any crime. Problem solved. Or did you mean the school's options? As I said earlier, if a vigilante (and that includes the wife) put the man out of his misery, I doubt anybody would shed a tear for him. But yes, I was talking about the school's options. I figured you were...just was looking for a place to get that in. It just pisses me off that EVERYBODY but the bad guy suffers. And frankly, people's hands are tied. This is a no-win situation. I can understand the woman's POV, I can understand the school's POV, and I can understand the parents' POV. It's a hard one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 11:47:54 GMT -5
If my kid was in this school, I would pull them out after this. While I understand the points being made, it is in no way, shape or form acceptable to me to penalize the victim. My child would be placed in some other school and the diocese would never see a penny from me or my family again.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:48:11 GMT -5
Again, I made it clear I didn't know, for sure, how long it took for the police to get there. I just know they were there before the man got into the hospital. All outside doors were locked as soon as he was seen (save one that was double-guarded). I haven't made the claim the man wasn't a threat. We minimized the threat and the police neutralized it. Keep making it up. Maybe you can write a novel. And you were very lucky that the cops got there in time. You do realize that if they hadn't been able to get there in time, you would have had a very different outcome. I'm not willing to chance my child's safety on someone seeing this guy outside, calling police and them getting there all before this guy takes the 20 steps it takes to get into my child's school. My youngest's school is in the middle of a residential street. There are cars all over and people walk up and down the street. From the street there are 2 steps to get inside. Yes, doors are locked and you need to be buzzed in...but what are the odds that they have bullet proof glass or that the guy won't time it perfectly so he can sneak in with someone who is buzzed in? I've gotten there plenty of times when someone has already hit the button to get in and I go in with them. And that happened at their old school, too. Security isn't fool proof in schools Then, the problem is that security in schools isn't good enough. I'll buy that. It has to be made good enough, and that's going to pinch your pocketbook again. I've got no problem with that. I don't even have kids in school, but I'll pay more to keep other people's children safe. There's never going to be foolproof anything. We can, however, make the effort to get as close as we can.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 11:48:42 GMT -5
If the school can't provide the needed security, parents are going to have to pony up.
And what happens if enough parents say tough shit? This is not a public school where an increase in property taxes can happen and unless I want to move to another city I'm going to have to pay it and 39.9% goes to the school system. They lose enough people the school goes under. I don't think it's the school's job to have to put everything on the line to make a societal statment. It'd be wonderful if they did but they have others to think about besides this one teacher. That being said I get the concern of social workers that this will convince other women not to leave/report abuse. Abuse works by messing with the abused's head and stories like these feed into it. It's a sucky situation but I don't feel the school has to be the one to shoulder that burden. Oh but it is a societal statement either way, especially when you are the Catholic Church, who all they do is make societal statements. So you would prefer that the choice be left tot he parents to yank their kids...even if only 30% of the parents chose the safety of their children and yanked them, I'm guessing that would be a big enough hit that there would be layoffs. Is that the better option?
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 11:48:52 GMT -5
Umm...I am all in favor of armed guards at every school. I would pay more for that because I do realize that there are crazies everywhere. Liberals would never go for it, though. What I am not in favor of is false security. Locking doors is not going to stop this guy. And there is a difference between a very small risk of some crazy targeting your school (Sandy Hook) and a very real risk of a deranged ex who is gunning for a teacher... LOL! I'm so glad you said that! I've been accused of being a flaming liberal more times than I care to count! Locking doors stopped our guy. We don't know whether they would have stopped the guy in this case, or not. The school thought they would because it went into lockdown. We don't even know if the guy in this case was armed. I would imagine if the ex-husband had weapon on him when he went to the school he wouldn't be getting out of jail this month.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:49:21 GMT -5
so to you it is better that EVERYONE pay more of their dollars to get more security that wouldnt be needed if she isnt teaching there? This woman wasn't married to the ONLY nut in the world. Security should be very high priority, IMO. Yes, I'm willing to pay for it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 11:50:06 GMT -5
And you were very lucky that the cops got there in time. You do realize that if they hadn't been able to get there in time, you would have had a very different outcome. I'm not willing to chance my child's safety on someone seeing this guy outside, calling police and them getting there all before this guy takes the 20 steps it takes to get into my child's school. My youngest's school is in the middle of a residential street. There are cars all over and people walk up and down the street. From the street there are 2 steps to get inside. Yes, doors are locked and you need to be buzzed in...but what are the odds that they have bullet proof glass or that the guy won't time it perfectly so he can sneak in with someone who is buzzed in? I've gotten there plenty of times when someone has already hit the button to get in and I go in with them. And that happened at their old school, too. Security isn't fool proof in schools Then, the problem is that security in schools isn't good enough. I'll buy that. It has to be made good enough, and that's going to pinch your pocketbook again. I've got no problem with that. I don't even have kids in school, but I'll pay more to keep other people's children safe. There's never going to be foolproof anything. We can, however, make the effort to get as close as we can. So you think armed guards at the door is the answer? I'm not sure what you are thinking in terms of security.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 13, 2013 11:51:07 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the school couldn't have found a place for this lady that maybe wasn't placing others at risk. At least temporarily. I understand that bad things could still happen and I know ZERO about private (or public) schools. I'm just wondering if maybe they could have added her to the curriculum staff or something - getting her out of the classroom, at least until the situation was resolved. It's not a perfect situation and may very well not even be doable. I just feel so bad for her. I'm reaching. I know.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:52:20 GMT -5
As I said earlier, if a vigilante (and that includes the wife) put the man out of his misery, I doubt anybody would shed a tear for him. But yes, I was talking about the school's options. I figured you were...just was looking for a place to get that in. It just pisses me off that EVERYBODY but the bad guy suffers. And frankly, people's hands are tied. This is a no-win situation. I can understand the woman's POV, I can understand the school's POV, and I can understand the parents' POV. It's a hard one. Precisely, GEL. I can tell you, if the guy who came on our campus had tried to breach the only open door, our guards would have shot him. It's absolutely horrible to think this has to be. It's awful we even have to discuss it; however, victimizing the victim just isn't acceptable.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 13, 2013 11:53:34 GMT -5
You're honestly claiming that an ex-husband who shows up armed with a weapon in spite of a restraining order categorically isn't a threat because the police could get there in ten minutes? Beam me up, Scotty. Make the "Oh suck it up, he isn't really a threat." argument all you like. If I was a member of the diocese or one of the parents whose kids' butts were on the line, I know where I'd tell you to stick it. Again, I made it clear I didn't know, for sure, how long it took for the police to get there. I just know they were there before the man got into the hospital. All outside doors were locked as soon as he was seen (save one that was double-guarded). I haven't made the claim the man wasn't a threat. We minimized the threat and the police neutralized it. Keep making it up. Maybe you can write a novel. And you can keep sucking air with your "He's not really a threat." argument. I'm grateful that your workplace was able to safely lock down and that the police took the perpetrator into custody without incident, but never in a million years am I going to construe that as proof that a raging ex-husband with this man's criminal history isn't a legitimate threat. The diocese saw a credible threat to their staff and students--even if that threat turned out to be future scares, lockdowns, and disruptions. They took reasonable measures to protect their staff and students. The injustice in this case is the failure of the courts to protect Ms. Charlesworth from a chronic recidivist, not the fault of the organizations trying to avoid being caught up in the crossfire. That's my position, and I'm off to work. If it's the lesser of two evils, I find it every bit as acceptable as the diocese did. Unfortunate, but necessary--and thereby acceptable.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:54:52 GMT -5
Then, the problem is that security in schools isn't good enough. I'll buy that. It has to be made good enough, and that's going to pinch your pocketbook again. I've got no problem with that. I don't even have kids in school, but I'll pay more to keep other people's children safe. There's never going to be foolproof anything. We can, however, make the effort to get as close as we can. So you think armed guards at the door is the answer? I'm not sure what you are thinking in terms of security. Armed guards at the only open entrance is about as good as you're going to get. We didn't keep that in place all the time; however, if there was an incipient problem, that was protocol. All doors locked except one. That one could be locked remotely, just as could the others. Armed guards were only sent to that door if there was an incident in progress, but two were always available.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:55:43 GMT -5
That's not my argument. It's yours. You made it up and assigned it to me. I reject the assignment.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 13, 2013 11:55:54 GMT -5
Often times, you read something like this and it makes your own problems seem minute. I work in a place where dang near everyone is heavily armed. If my ex showed up with a gun, he'd be so full of holes his mama wouldn't be able to identify him. My heart aches for this young woman. It should make everyone extremely angry and it should make everyone scream stiffer penalities and mandatory incarceration for this type of nut job.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 13, 2013 11:57:32 GMT -5
so to you it is better that EVERYONE pay more of their dollars to get more security that wouldnt be needed if she isnt teaching there? This woman wasn't married to the ONLY nut in the world. Security should be very high priority, IMO. Yes, I'm willing to pay for it. You would be the only senior in my area to want to pay for it though. The things they have refused to pay for include replacing a roof that leaks and a HVAC system that also leaks. If they won't pay to fixe the roof that is actively leaking no way are they going to pony up to make the building a fortress! and for the record I don't want my kids going to school in a virtual prison. I like that it is a relaxed open happy place. If I wanted them to live a dreary life I would move us to PA. Hi Miss Tequila
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2013 11:57:46 GMT -5
Hell, I'm not here to assign blame. I find that pretty damned useless and my pointing finger gets sore. To me, the important thing is to build that "better mousetrap" and find ways to deal with these situation without re-victimizing the victim.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 11:57:56 GMT -5
I figured you were...just was looking for a place to get that in. It just pisses me off that EVERYBODY but the bad guy suffers. And frankly, people's hands are tied. This is a no-win situation. I can understand the woman's POV, I can understand the school's POV, and I can understand the parents' POV. It's a hard one. Precisely, GEL. I can tell you, if the guy who came on our campus had tried to breach the only open door, our guards would have shot him. It's absolutely horrible to think this has to be. It's awful we even have to discuss it; however, victimizing the victim just isn't acceptable. But you had armed guards at every door. I can assure you, in my area there are NO armed guards anyway. Even in my older dd's school (she goes to a much larger school) there are two unarmed guards...one at the door and one roaming the hall. But if this guy really wanted to get into her school, I know he could do it. Afgter every school shooting I stress because I know that all of our schools are targets and vulnerable. As a parent it scares me to know that there are crazies out there who would want to make a name for themselves by taking out innoicent children. That is a very, very small risk but a real risk. That is a risk that I have chosen to take by sending my kids to school. What I am not willing to do is send them to school with a much larger risk (in my eyes)
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deantrip
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Post by deantrip on Jun 13, 2013 11:59:06 GMT -5
Maybe this type of incident will help prompt stricter laws regarding abusers, I am doubting it though as most legislators don't really seem to give a rat's ass what really happens to the public.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jun 13, 2013 11:59:43 GMT -5
Okay, I've actually dealt with a situation that was probably all but identical to this one, discounting the venue. For me, it was a hospital. For this case, it was a school. Both contain a large number of vulnerable individuals. In our case, it was the estranged husband of a member of our staff who showed up in spite of a restraining order. Just as in the case being discussed, the staff member had brought her dilemma to the attention of the hospital management. All first-line supervision and security had a picture of the estranged husband. All departments were notified to call the police, our security, and our nursing supervisor should the estranged husband be seen on campus. Sure enough, he showed up late one night on my shift (naturally!). By the time I got the call, the police had been notified and security was in place. All outside doors were locked except one, and it was double-guarded. By the time I got to where the individual was expected to try to enter the hospital, the police were already rolling in. It was a non-event. Tough guy didn't look particularly tough as the police loaded him into their vehicle. The difference is the hospital had security guards and the budget to pay them. And since insanity, violence and ER visits all go hand in hand, hospitals know how to deal with violent and crazy people. Hospitals deal with crazy and violent people every day. Firing an employee with a crazy ex wouldn't really change a hospital's risk level. But a small private school is a different story. They don't deal with crazy or violent people on a daily basis. Keeping a teacher around who has an ex with a 20 year history of violence does dramatically increase their risk level, and it is unlikely that they have the resources to deal with this. Most Catholic schools are struggling to stay open.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 13, 2013 11:59:59 GMT -5
so to you it is better that EVERYONE pay more of their dollars to get more security that wouldnt be needed if she isnt teaching there? This woman wasn't married to the ONLY nut in the world. Security should be very high priority, IMO. Yes, I'm willing to pay for it. As these California parents (of these Catholic school students) pay federal, state (some states) local city taxes, and their taxes pay to support public schools, then I would think they could get local police protection (if necessary) to guard the school. Where is the money going to come from to place armed security details at our schools as a result of the Newtown school shooting? It is going to come from our paid taxes. And the protection of the schools shouldn't just be limited to public schools (and probably won't be).
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 13, 2013 12:00:53 GMT -5
Again, I made it clear I didn't know, for sure, how long it took for the police to get there. I just know they were there before the man got into the hospital. All outside doors were locked as soon as he was seen (save one that was double-guarded). I haven't made the claim the man wasn't a threat. We minimized the threat and the police neutralized it. Keep making it up. Maybe you can write a novel. And you can keep sucking air with your "He's not really a threat." argument. I'm grateful that your workplace was able to safely lock down and that the police took the perpetrator into custody without incident, but never in a million years am I going to construe that as proof that a raging ex-husband with this man's criminal history isn't a legitimate threat. The diocese saw a credible threat to their staff and students--even if that threat turned out to be future scares, lockdowns, and disruptions. They took reasonable measures to protect their staff and students. The injustice in this case is the failure of the courts to protect Ms. Charlesworth from a chronic recidivist, not the fault of the organizations trying to avoid being caught up in the crossfire. That's my position, and I'm off to work. If it's the lesser of two evils, I find it every bit as acceptable as the diocese did. Unfortunate, but necessary--and thereby acceptable. I agree. It is the judicial system that let this woman down. And a very good reason to tell women to press charges teh FIRST time he hits you.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2013 12:01:21 GMT -5
It's awful we even have to discuss it; however, victimizing the victim just isn't acceptable.
I don't believe anyone has ever said it was.
The school and it's board has however many other children and staff to consider in this situation. They take a risk of putting other people in harm's way and depending on the backlash could go under.
It'd be awesome if they could say Screw everyone else we're keeping her on staff and darn the consequences".
Unfortunately we live in the real world and there are a lot of things for them to consider outside of the scope of a single political/societal statement.
No they can't predict every possible nutball but they do know about one in particular. Unfortunately he happens to be attached to a staff member and the simpliest solution is to let her go.
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