Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 8:06:25 GMT -5
Yes Lena, most people think the school did the right thing to fire her.
MT - you say things like "human punching bag" and "my husband would get one shot at me" because "i'm a strong person" and you don't see that as lacking empathy? Oh, also, you want to slap your friend who "whines" about her husband beating her. Yup, you've got empathy written all over you.
Look, I'm not claiming to know the perfect solution. I do know THIS AIN'T IT. My preferred solution would be the "soft landing" GEL and thyme spoke of. What was running through my head over and over as I read this thread was "She doesn't have to be on school grounds, but they don't have to fire her!" Maybe she's put on administrative leave. Maybe the Archdiocese of San Diego doesn't feel she can teach there - but many the Archdiocese of San Francisco, or Bozeman, MT or wherever else does. I am being true to who I am. I wouldn't take abuse so I have a hard time understanding someone who does. I know it exists I just don't understand why anyone would take it. I've put up wtih my bff whining for 2 years over the abuse. I've dealt with her getting pfa's only to let his pathetic ass back in the house the next day. I've had family members email newspaper articles from the police blotter of our paper because cops were called to their house for a domestic disturbance resulting in him getting locked up AGAIN. Sorry, after awhile I do lose sympathy and do want to stlap the shit out of her (ironic, I know!lol). Ive told her this many times...I don't care if you want to live like this but how dare you do this to yoru child? I was this close to reporting her to Childern's Services last year but chickened out because the three times I called no one was available to talk and I was not leaving my name. How many 2am calls am I supposed to take before I get fed up with her? She is choosing to stay. I can't change that. No amount of pitying her will change that. Unlike Angel's support group, I would be thrilled and extremely proud of her if she kicked his ass to the curb. My biggest fear is one day he is really going to hurt her...or worse, turn his abuse to their child.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 8:12:38 GMT -5
We can't blindly assume that a perfect solution exists.
And captain is right. We don't know what measures individuals may have taken beyond the official decision.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2013 8:17:49 GMT -5
Angel I agree with you based on how people are treating the son and granddaughter of my pediatrician. It's awful and made 20 times worse because my pediatrician is considered such an outstanding member of our community and has been for 40+ years.
I've lost some respect for a couple of my in-laws due to the horrible ignornant things they say. It makes me wonder if that is how they would talk about my daughter and myself should God forbid something like that happen to her.
I stand at odds because I'm in hte victims' court unless the law can prove otherwise. It's not my place to assume they have a hidden agenda and made all this up. I feel like I am surrounded by a bunch of Nancy Graces.
That being said I've also been in the position of the school on a much smaller scale. Part of my brain did want to take a stand and shelter my friend but I had a nine month old daughter to consider. I've been thru this with him before and there was no way I was taking the chance of his stalker showing up on my doorstep again.
Personally no I don't think she should have been fired BUT I understand the thought process of the diocese and why they made the decision they did. She is not their only concern, they have the rest of the staff and children to consider.
We don't know what solutions were presented and from a legal standpoint the diocese is not going to disclose that information. For all we know they were up all night before they came to the decision to terminate her.
But it's far easier to call them a bunch of jerks. It's easy to say they should have done the "right thing" when it's not you having to put others on the line. I sympathize with her just as I sympthazie with my friend but the safety of others is just as important, IMO. It's a crappy situation and one that I hope I'm never put in again.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 8:25:23 GMT -5
One of the biggest problems with DV is the lack of empathy for the victim. I get that people don't understand why a victim might stay, but I don't think people realize that the victim is sick in her own way. The victim needs help, not judgement. It is like I don't understand how a mother could be so depressed she couldn't care for her baby or how someone could let alcohol ruin their life. It doesn't help the mom to hear "well I would never ignore my baby when they cry" Psychologically there is a lot going on that causes a victim to stay. Most wont understand, maybe you cant unless you have been there. And i think this absolutely encourages victims to stay silent or even just stay in a relationship. It is a lot harder to get out when you realize his crazy ass can get you fired. But I also think the attitude of most people encourages silence. I thought I was being smart & proving I wasn't a typical victim by telling people what was going on. That decision really fucked everything up in my life. I am very careful in what I tell people anymore & if I had to do it all over again I would have told no one. You think people will be supportive & they try, but more than anything I was criticized & judged. It was the hardest thing I have ever done to leave him in jail & not let him come home when he was released. I know that sounds stupid & most of you don't get it. I was a mess, miserable, depressed, could barely function, yet I did as much as I could handle in the situation. Looking back, I am proud of myself for the strength I had. But, you know what I got from my support group - criticized. No one acted proud. They acted like I was an idiot for not celebrating. Being told someone else would never stay in an abusive relationship really just kicks you when you are down because they make it sound like it should be easy to leave. No one was happy about the steps I took, all I heard was about the steps I didn't take. I was supposed to change the locks, I was supposed to move, I was supposed to file for divorce immediately, I was supposed to terminate his parental rights, etc. All I heard was the things i was doing wrong. One of my closests friends literally told me she couldn't be my friend anymore because I didn't handle things the way she thought I should. My parents didn't speak to me for a month because I didn't get rid of my dogs, short sale my house, and move in with them. Telling people didn't leave me feeling supported or that I was being strong. Telling people fucked up a bunch of relationship & left me feel like I was a loser because it was hard & feeling weak because I wasn't emotionally able to do everything everyone else thought I needed to do. IMO, that is why victims stay silent - because most people don't get it and you don't get the support you actually need. Very well posted, Angel. I'm proud of you and you should be proud of you. No two situations are alike and you did what you needed to do. Good on you. Go forth and be happy! For what it's worth? Those who love you get very afraid for you and perhaps what came through as judgmental criticism was just them being scared they weren't going to have you in their lives anymore. The only thing I would add here is nobody KNOWS what they would do in this situation until/unless they are in this situation. A person can say what they think they would do but they don't know for sure. It just isn't possible. So it's not helpful (or accurate) in the least to say, "Well....if it was ME......" It's just one of those things you have to live.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 14, 2013 8:40:15 GMT -5
Well, as someone who was once there and now cannot believe I ever was, I can tell you how it happened to me and I'm an educated woman who could support myself and my children and finally did. It's like the frog in boiling water. If it happened all at once, the frog would jump out and get away. But it happens gradually, so gradually you don't pick up on it. On the surface everything looks good. Even our bestest friends didn't see it and thought we had the perfect marriage/family. But then you do start to "get it" but you're so messed up by then you don't see how to get out of it and you hope it "goes away" so your perfect family isn't left not perfect anymore or any other number of stupid reasons that all make sense at the time because you're nuts. Nuts may not be PC to some people but it describes me perfectly. I finally told my OB GYN who was partner with my EXs best buddy and I was friends with the wife. She was horrified and I'm sure didn't believe me but actually gave me some meds and the name of some counselor who I could see on the sly because I had my own insurance. I went through several counselors before I found one who told me to take my kids and get the hell out. He believed me, the rest thought I was crazy. Well, I was but not in the way they thought. Oh, believe me, it happens to the best of us as well as the worst of us.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 14, 2013 8:45:19 GMT -5
And for all we know that soft landing may have been offered. In these cases the employer's hands are tied as far as how much information they can disclose while the employee can release as much information about the situation as they wish. As with many things we will never know all of the facts. Do you think a soft landing may have been offered (a non-teaching compensated position within the diocese's school system)? I would imagine if a non-teaching position had been offered we wouldn't even be having this conversation and the teacher wouldn't be in the news. There has been no mention by this woman, local domestic violence support groups or any media source a soft landing was offered. In fact we would be praising the school system for taking care of one of their members during a dark time for her if one had been offered to her. I do understand the school's need to protect the children and others at the school. And let me repeat that because you seem to have originally missed that in the opening post: I do understand the school's need to protect the children and others at the school. There is only one 'winner' in all this mess. While he may be sitting in jail until sometime this month, her ex-husband has a new tool in his arsenal to continue the abuse of his ex-wife: making a pest of himself (legally of course!) by appearing near her work sites or going to their children's schools. Get the ex-wife fired (too much of a distraction to employers and employees) or get the kids kicked out of school (danger to students and staff). Way to go to further victimized the victim.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2013 8:50:13 GMT -5
While he may be sitting in jail until sometime this month, her ex-husband has a new tool in his arsenal to continue the abuse of his ex-wife: making a pest of himself (legally of course!) by appearing near her work sites or going to their children's schools. Get the ex-wife fired (too much of a distraction to employers and employees) or get the kids kicked out of school (danger to students and staff).
Way to go to further victimized the victim.
Very true. But I'd argue even if she hadn't been fired knowing that he can send an entire school into lockdown would be a very handy tool as well. Now he can threaten not only her and his kids but her entire classroom and her co-workers. It's not like if she'd kept her job he'd say "Oh they took a stand so I'll leave her alone". They don't think that way. What's failing isn't the school, it's the justice system that has allowed this guy to walk in the coure of 20 years of escalating violence against women. And it's going to allow him to walk AGAIN.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2013 8:53:42 GMT -5
If the help they were providing was sufficient, I doubt she would go to NBC news and shout a national message that they are bunch of assholes/haters who jerked her out of a job and destroyed her life. Unless this is all part of some grand conspiracy to trick her ex-husband out of looking for her there, or something like that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 8:58:35 GMT -5
One of the biggest problems with DV is the lack of empathy for the victim. I get that people don't understand why a victim might stay, but I don't think people realize that the victim is sick in her own way. The victim needs help, not judgement. It is like I don't understand how a mother could be so depressed she couldn't care for her baby or how someone could let alcohol ruin their life. It doesn't help the mom to hear "well I would never ignore my baby when they cry" Psychologically there is a lot going on that causes a victim to stay. Most wont understand, maybe you cant unless you have been there. And i think this absolutely encourages victims to stay silent or even just stay in a relationship. It is a lot harder to get out when you realize his crazy ass can get you fired. But I also think the attitude of most people encourages silence. I thought I was being smart & proving I wasn't a typical victim by telling people what was going on. That decision really fucked everything up in my life. I am very careful in what I tell people anymore & if I had to do it all over again I would have told no one. You think people will be supportive & they try, but more than anything I was criticized & judged. It was the hardest thing I have ever done to leave him in jail & not let him come home when he was released. I know that sounds stupid & most of you don't get it. I was a mess, miserable, depressed, could barely function, yet I did as much as I could handle in the situation. Looking back, I am proud of myself for the strength I had. But, you know what I got from my support group - criticized. No one acted proud. They acted like I was an idiot for not celebrating. Being told someone else would never stay in an abusive relationship really just kicks you when you are down because they make it sound like it should be easy to leave. No one was happy about the steps I took, all I heard was about the steps I didn't take. I was supposed to change the locks, I was supposed to move, I was supposed to file for divorce immediately, I was supposed to terminate his parental rights, etc. All I heard was the things i was doing wrong. One of my closests friends literally told me she couldn't be my friend anymore because I didn't handle things the way she thought I should. My parents didn't speak to me for a month because I didn't get rid of my dogs, short sale my house, and move in with them. Telling people didn't leave me feeling supported or that I was being strong. Telling people fucked up a bunch of relationship & left me feel like I was a loser because it was hard & feeling weak because I wasn't emotionally able to do everything everyone else thought I needed to do. IMO, that is why victims stay silent - because most people don't get it and you don't get the support you actually need. Very well posted, Angel. I'm proud of you and you should be proud of you. No two situations are alike and you did what you needed to do. Good on you. Go forth and be happy! For what it's worth? Those who love you get very afraid for you and perhaps what came through as judgmental criticism was just them being scared they weren't going to have you in their lives anymore. The only thing I would add here is nobody KNOWS what they would do in this situation until/unless they are in this situation. A person can say what they think they would do but they don't know for sure. It just isn't possible. So it's not helpful (or accurate) in the least to say, "Well....if it was ME......" It's just one of those things you have to live. I know myself well enough to know that I cut people out of my life that are toxic. I've cut my own mother out of my life for periods of time because she wasn't good for me. I am confident that I do know what I would do. I am also 100% financially independent so I'm sure that helps me in my confidence. It isn't like I sit around telling the bff "if it were me"...hell, she knows me well enough that she says "I know you wouldn't put up with this, I wish I had your strength". I don't even have to say it to her because as a person that knows me almost as well as my husband, she knows I truly wouldn't take it. I'm not saying that to knock anyone that has lived through this (or is currently living through it). I'm explaining that because of who I am I really don't understand how anyone stays. I don't go around pointing the finger at abused women in real life.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 9:02:44 GMT -5
One of the biggest problems with DV is the lack of empathy for the victim. I get that people don't understand why a victim might stay, but I don't think people realize that the victim is sick in her own way. The victim needs help, not judgement. It is like I don't understand how a mother could be so depressed she couldn't care for her baby or how someone could let alcohol ruin their life. It doesn't help the mom to hear "well I would never ignore my baby when they cry" Psychologically there is a lot going on that causes a victim to stay. Most wont understand, maybe you cant unless you have been there. And i think this absolutely encourages victims to stay silent or even just stay in a relationship. It is a lot harder to get out when you realize his crazy ass can get you fired. But I also think the attitude of most people encourages silence. I thought I was being smart & proving I wasn't a typical victim by telling people what was going on. That decision really fucked everything up in my life. I am very careful in what I tell people anymore & if I had to do it all over again I would have told no one. You think people will be supportive & they try, but more than anything I was criticized & judged. It was the hardest thing I have ever done to leave him in jail & not let him come home when he was released. I know that sounds stupid & most of you don't get it. I was a mess, miserable, depressed, could barely function, yet I did as much as I could handle in the situation. Looking back, I am proud of myself for the strength I had. But, you know what I got from my support group - criticized. No one acted proud. They acted like I was an idiot for not celebrating. Being told someone else would never stay in an abusive relationship really just kicks you when you are down because they make it sound like it should be easy to leave. No one was happy about the steps I took, all I heard was about the steps I didn't take. I was supposed to change the locks, I was supposed to move, I was supposed to file for divorce immediately, I was supposed to terminate his parental rights, etc. All I heard was the things i was doing wrong. One of my closests friends literally told me she couldn't be my friend anymore because I didn't handle things the way she thought I should. My parents didn't speak to me for a month because I didn't get rid of my dogs, short sale my house, and move in with them. Telling people didn't leave me feeling supported or that I was being strong. Telling people fucked up a bunch of relationship & left me feel like I was a loser because it was hard & feeling weak because I wasn't emotionally able to do everything everyone else thought I needed to do. IMO, that is why victims stay silent - because most people don't get it and you don't get the support you actually need. How are you so sure an unsympathetic attitude and critical reception weren't the support you needed? While I was growing up, I can think of three separate cases where my parents became involved in family friends' ongoing trials. One instance concerned abuse. Two out of the three times, my folks took the empathetic road, thinking it was the more Christian thing to do. In the third case they took a hard line stance like the one you describe here in your friends and family. That was the only case where things ever got any better. Without a sympathetic ear, life got so miserable and so uncomfortable for the victim that she had to do something. Your case bears this out. You can claim you'd have done the same had your family and friends hugged you and clucked their tongues, but I'm willing to bet that if we went back with a magic "What If...?" machine, we'd find that as miserable as people's criticism made your life, it played no small part in motivating you to do what needed to be done and to keep going until the job was finished. From your perspective, all you remember is wanting sympathy and not getting any. My experience is that sympathy can be (and often is) the balm that makes it possible for the victim to bear the status quo, rationalize, and regress.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 9:09:17 GMT -5
And for all we know that soft landing may have been offered. In these cases the employer's hands are tied as far as how much information they can disclose while the employee can release as much information about the situation as they wish. As with many things we will never know all of the facts. Do you think a soft landing may have been offered (a non-teaching compensated position within the diocese's school system)? I would imagine if a non-teaching position had been offered we wouldn't even be having this conversation and the teacher wouldn't be in the news. There has been no mention by this woman, local domestic violence support groups or any media source a soft landing was offered. In fact we would be praising the school system for taking care of one of their members during a dark time for her if one had been offered to her. I do understand the school's need to protect the children and others at the school. And let me repeat that because you seem to have originally missed that in the opening post: I do understand the school's need to protect the children and others at the school. There is only one 'winner' in all this mess. While he may be sitting in jail until sometime this month, her ex-husband has a new tool in his arsenal to continue the abuse of his ex-wife: making a pest of himself (legally of course!) by appearing near her work sites or going to their children's schools. Get the ex-wife fired (too much of a distraction to employers and employees) or get the kids kicked out of school (danger to students and staff). Way to go to further victimized the victim. So do something about it. Write a letter to the courts. Get off your duff and join a lobby group for tougher legal penalties for domestic abusers. It seems the US needs more of that. What it doesn't need is sermonizing about "victimizing the victim" from a man who's done absolutely nothing to help, with absolutely no skin in the game, and who has no better solution.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 9:10:43 GMT -5
I don't get that you are pointing fingers at anyone, Miss T. It appears to me you truly don't understand why someone would stay in a situation like this. I do think you are a very strong woman and you would probably do exactly what you say you would do. I stand by my statement, tho, that you don't KNOW for sure. Nobody does unless they can see into the future.
I don't think you lack empathy at all - just the understanding of "why". And that's not a bad thing. It's something everyone lacks who hasn't BTDT. I would think it's like trying to explain labor pains to someone who has never had them. Or trying to explain what it's like to lose a parent. Nobody can fully comprehend the pain unless they've experienced it.
Believe me, I feel the same way and I have BTDT. I want to just shake some women because it's easy to see more clearly when you aren't in the middle of it. It's not so easy when you are - for various reasons. I don't belong to the camp that believes that because someone doesn't understand, they lack empathy. I think they are really looking for explanations - especially when it involves someone they care about.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 14, 2013 9:12:29 GMT -5
Tennesseer - I cannot speak to this situation because obviously I don't know anything. I can speak in generalities to another situation where a non-profit group with whom I used to work offered SHORT TERM shelter to someone who was affected by a local disaster. The shelter was promised for a period of 10 months because it was available and it seemed a shame to let it go unused when there was so much need. After the 10 months we knew we were going to need it again. For a period of time we tried to work with the family to whom the shelter was offered. The shelter was furnished and we provided clothing and food for the first few months until they were signed up with local social services. One of our group members even arranged for a few job interviews. There were other issues involved that I'm not comfortable discussing but suffice to say a lot of resources went to try to help this family out. During the first 6 months the family did not go on any interviews or try to find a way to support themselves. At the 8 month mark we notified them they only had two months left. At the eight month mark they went to the local media and vilified our group for throwing them out on the streets in their time of need. The did the whole shebang complete with pictures of parents helping kids with homework and family baking cookies together. It was total bullshit as they did not have the existence they were attempting to portray in the media. My group on the other hand was portrayed as the well funded/deep pockets evil faceless entity who was going to throw a family out on the street so we could get high rents for the unit. That was the furthest from the truth but one of our board memebers (a JD) advised us to not make any statements to the media. So for all we know the lady may have been offered something, or she may not have. I know it's popular to pound on the Catholic Church but I've seen them do too much good to personally think that there wasn't some attempt at a softer alternative then the one that the person involved is portraying to the media. Of course this is all academic since my personal opion is just that, an opinion.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 14, 2013 9:17:47 GMT -5
Do you think a soft landing may have been offered (a non-teaching compensated position within the diocese's school system)? I would imagine if a non-teaching position had been offered we wouldn't even be having this conversation and the teacher wouldn't be in the news. There has been no mention by this woman, local domestic violence support groups or any media source a soft landing was offered. In fact we would be praising the school system for taking care of one of their members during a dark time for her if one had been offered to her. I do understand the school's need to protect the children and others at the school. And let me repeat that because you seem to have originally missed that in the opening post: I do understand the school's need to protect the children and others at the school. There is only one 'winner' in all this mess. While he may be sitting in jail until sometime this month, her ex-husband has a new tool in his arsenal to continue the abuse of his ex-wife: making a pest of himself (legally of course!) by appearing near her work sites or going to their children's schools. Get the ex-wife fired (too much of a distraction to employers and employees) or get the kids kicked out of school (danger to students and staff). Way to go to further victimized the victim. So do something about it. Write a letter to the courts. Get off your duff and join a lobby group for tougher legal penalties for domestic abusers. It seems the US needs more of that. What it doesn't need is sermonizing about "victimizing the victim" from a man who's done absolutely nothing to help, with absolutely no skin in the game, and who has no better solution. Piss off virgil. As usual, you know jack shit. The woman is in California. I am in Tennessee. You have no idea what I do or don't do here. Take your shit elsewhere. Or go pray the abuse away for the woman . See how that works for her.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2013 9:20:55 GMT -5
FWIW Angel I think everyone here and on MSN were rooting for you.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 9:21:26 GMT -5
So do something about it. Write a letter to the courts. Get off your duff and join a lobby group for tougher legal penalties for domestic abusers. It seems the US needs more of that. What it doesn't need is sermonizing about "victimizing the victim" from a man who's done absolutely nothing to help, with absolutely no skin in the game, and who has no better solution. Piss off virgil. As usual, you know jack shit. The woman is in California. I am in Tennessee. You have no idea what I do or don't do here. Take your shit elsewhere. Or go pray the abuse away for the woman . See how that works for her. Apologies for striking a nerve.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 9:41:30 GMT -5
How are you so sure an unsympathetic attitude and critical reception weren't the support you needed? While I was growing up, I can think of three separate cases where my parents became involved in family friends' ongoing trials. One instance concerned abuse. Two out of the three times, my folks took the empathetic road, thinking it was the more Christian thing to do. In the third case they took a hard line stance like the one you describe here in your friends and family. That was the only case where things ever got any better. Without a sympathetic ear, life got so miserable and so uncomfortable for the victim that she had to do something. Your case bears this out. You can claim you'd have done the same had your family and friends hugged you and clucked their tongues, but I'm willing to bet that if we went back with a magic "What If...?" machine, we'd find that as miserable as people's criticism made your life, it played no small part in motivating you to do what needed to be done and to keep going until the job was finished. From your perspective, all you remember is wanting sympathy and not getting any. My experience is that sympathy can be (and often is) the balm that makes it possible for the victim to bear the status quo, rationalize, and regress. That's completely ridiculous. Angel was disengaging from the relationship, which is what needed doing. Not speaking to her because she wouldn't short-sale her home isn't impacting her decision to end the marriage. Ending a friendship when someone needs support only demonstrates that the friend is shallow. Their reactions were irrelevant to what Angle did regarding the abusive situation - but I am sure has impacted how Angel perceives those relationships today. Angel was taking the steps she needed to, and I remember her threads from back then as it was an on-going situation. If you honestly think that some "clucking in concern" is going to make you more willing to go back for another black eye - there just really isn't anything more to say. Statiscally it is shown that the abused who stay longest int he most dangerous situations are those that are socially isolated. When you isolate an abusive victim, that is the worst thing in the world in terms of getting them to leave the abusive relationship. In fact hard core abusers frequently work tirelessly to get their victims alienated from family and friends. There's a difference between isolation--which implies disconnectedness and apathy--and criticism. A critical individual is usually an individual who cares. Breaking off a friendship seems extreme (although I can imagine situations where it's an appropriate ultimatum). The rest of what Angel posted suggests to me that her support group had an active interest in getting her out of a bad relationship. They just weren't empathetic. I'm not saying that empathy is categorically wrong. I'm saying that from what I've observed, it can be a major barrier at times.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 9:47:33 GMT -5
I don't get that you are pointing fingers at anyone, Miss T. It appears to me you truly don't understand why someone would stay in a situation like this. I do think you are a very strong woman and you would probably do exactly what you say you would do. I stand by my statement, tho, that you don't KNOW for sure. Nobody does unless they can see into the future. I don't think you lack empathy at all - just the understanding of "why". And that's not a bad thing. It's something everyone lacks who hasn't BTDT. I would think it's like trying to explain labor pains to someone who has never had them. Or trying to explain what it's like to lose a parent. Nobody can fully comprehend the pain unless they've experienced it. Believe me, I feel the same way and I have BTDT. I want to just shake some women because it's easy to see more clearly when you aren't in the middle of it. It's not so easy when you are - for various reasons. I don't belong to the camp that believes that because someone doesn't understand, they lack empathy. I think they are really looking for explanations - especially when it involves someone they care about. thank you...that is exactly what I was trying to get at. I don't understand...I might never understand but that doesn't stop me from asking the questions. I'm blunt in the way I speak...in person and on-line. Yet my bff knows what I say comes from teh heart and understands that I am trying to help her (Ive learned I can't, she can only help herself). I guess that is the difference between real life interactions and postings on a message board.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 9:52:20 GMT -5
I don't get that you are pointing fingers at anyone, Miss T. It appears to me you truly don't understand why someone would stay in a situation like this. I do think you are a very strong woman and you would probably do exactly what you say you would do. I stand by my statement, tho, that you don't KNOW for sure. Nobody does unless they can see into the future. I don't think you lack empathy at all - just the understanding of "why". And that's not a bad thing. It's something everyone lacks who hasn't BTDT. I would think it's like trying to explain labor pains to someone who has never had them. Or trying to explain what it's like to lose a parent. Nobody can fully comprehend the pain unless they've experienced it. Believe me, I feel the same way and I have BTDT. I want to just shake some women because it's easy to see more clearly when you aren't in the middle of it. It's not so easy when you are - for various reasons. I don't belong to the camp that believes that because someone doesn't understand, they lack empathy. I think they are really looking for explanations - especially when it involves someone they care about. thank you...that is exactly what I was trying to get at. I don't understand...I might never understand but that doesn't stop me from asking the questions. I'm blunt in the way I speak...in person and on-line. Yet my bff knows what I say comes from teh heart and understands that I am trying to help her (Ive learned I can't, she can only help herself). I guess that is the difference between real life interactions and postings on a message board. I appreciate bluntness, Miss T. Even if it's something I don't like hearing. And you are helping her. You are being her friend. You are right. She has to help herself, too - it's not something anybody else can do for her. People can help her by pointing her in the direction of resources but the ultimate decision lies with her. You are helping by letting her know she isn't alone. I can't tell you how much that means to someone in pain.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 9:55:36 GMT -5
Deleted my post because I don't feel like going on and on about women in the situation. The topic was a teacher fired
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2013 9:56:05 GMT -5
Welp - as a life long (kinda) catholic, I am disappointed in the church in this matter. As an employer - whatever, but as a church that supposed has focused 2000 year in helping the downtrodden - very disappointing
I agree with you too in principal but after working for a Catholic University myself I'm a cynic. They make the employees respect and obey the doctrine (to the extent they can) but they sure don't practice what they preach.
They're not the world's best employers that's for sure.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 9:58:14 GMT -5
Deleted my post because I don't feel like going on and on about women in the situation. The topic was a teacher fired Ack. The one person who agrees with me... (at least... sort of) and she's deleting her own posts. Mayday. Mayday. ETA: Consider putting your post back. It offered another real life perspective.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2013 9:59:22 GMT -5
Deleted my post because I don't feel like going on and on about women in the situation. The topic was a teacher fired Ack. The one person who agrees with me... (at least... sort of) and she's deleting her own posts. Mayday. Mayday. LOL! Sorry, I just felt like I was beating a dead horse. WE all think what we think and I'm tired of arguing the same points! I either lack empathy or I don't understand...either way, I'm ok with it
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2013 10:10:28 GMT -5
Well, we have only heard one side of the story. Angel says she was disengaging, but what do we really know. Maybe she had not let him come home 20 times before, and her parents knew that she was keeping the house and the dogs in case she changed her mind a 21st time. I'm not criticizing Angel specifically - I don't know much about her situation. I just know that sitting helpless while you watch someone you love let themselves be destroyed for years and years on end is very frustrating. It wasn't like her parents got up in the morning, read the paper and casually turned to each other and said "Let's break ties with our daughter because she isn't doing exactly what we say." I suspect they had to get some distance to regain their sanity, because watching their daughter set herself on fire was extremely painful for them.
I feel for everyone in that situation - Angel, her friend who didn't know what to do, her parents whose hearts were ripped out of their bodies and kicked around like a hackeysack, and even her ex-, who was clearly a messed up individual who couldn't figure out the basic kindness to himself and the person he loved to find a new way of life. The whole thing sucks.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 14, 2013 10:15:26 GMT -5
Ack. The one person who agrees with me... (at least... sort of) and she's deleting her own posts. Mayday. Mayday. LOL! Sorry, I just felt like I was beating a dead horse. WE all think what we think and I'm tired of arguing the same points! I either lack empathy or I don't understand...either way, I'm ok with it There are a few heartbreaking parts in a documentary about street life called "Skid Row", where the camera crew follows an older woman (a mother) through the LA slums trying to find her middle-aged son. She braves the streets at regular intervals to bring him food and clothing. But he's hooked on drugs and won't quit. Aside from bringing him food and pleading with him, she simply can't help him. When the documentarian interviews the son, he resents his mother for trying to "change him" and not accepting his drug habit. It's a tear-jerker because his mom obviously loves him to death and he just. doesn't. get it.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 10:41:18 GMT -5
Valid point, Virgil. But there is one huge difference. Being a drug user is a choice. Being a DV victim is not. (Some may view that differently.)
Another perspective. EVERYONE has "skin in the game" when it comes to DV. Just look at how many people this one man's actions have affected. First, of course, the woman and her children. Also? The teachers and administrators in the school, the students at the school, and the families of those students. It has and will affect the Catholic Church. It has and will affect the entire community when people start taking sides on the issue. Heck...more than the entire community. Look at us debating it. If affects those of us who have experienced DV either personally or with someone we love.
Everyone, even people on this message board, has skin in this particular game.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2013 10:45:23 GMT -5
Yes and no. If someone changes and starts abusing you, you have to figure out what to do. If it goes on and on for years, there is a level of choice involved. Yes, we can talk about fear and low self-esteem, but similar elements are at work with being a drug user. If there wasn't a level of choice in being a continued abuse victim, we wouldn't have so many people on this board talking about how they WERE in an abusive relationship, and now they are not. They made a choice to get out.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 14, 2013 10:54:25 GMT -5
We don't agree, Thyme. Nobody chooses to get hurt (welll...except those S& M peeps). I agree they may make choices that lead to that end....absolutely. But no woman I know chooses to be hurt. Many, many women (and their SOs) do choose to remain in the relationship and seek counseling to end the behavior. Sometimes, it works. But the times it doesn't work, doesn't mean that woman made a choice to get hurt again.
Is a woman choosing to get raped because she walks to her car alone at night? Of course not. She made a bad choice to walk to her car alone, but she didn't choose to get raped. DV is the same thing. It's nobody's "choice" but the one perpetrating the violence.
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Queen of Interesting Nuts
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Post by Queen of Interesting Nuts on Jun 14, 2013 11:13:45 GMT -5
How appropriate. Just got a text message from DD that one of her BFF got beat up and the guy is in jail on battery charges so I am sitting here crying my eyes out that a 19 yo is going through this. Yes they lived together then she went back home and even my DD said the guy had seemed to started a new leaf. Guess they were wrong. God I hate this, there is way too many of DD friends in need I just want to hug them all and love them all, lot of failings going on around here.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2013 11:30:14 GMT -5
We can disagree. But, if your husband beats you up every week for 10 years, and you stay - you are making a choice. After 500 times, if you still believe that it won't happen a 501st time, then you are a fool.
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