Florida strikes again- on teen sex- selective prosecution?

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 28, 2013 0:25:12 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I vehemently disagree.  A 14-year-old child CANNOT seduce anybody who isn't very willing to be seduced.  Any 30-year-old man KNOWS sex with a 14-year-old child is illegal, immoral, and downright disgusting.   The responsibility lies fully and completely with the adult.  As I say, the seduction wasn't on the part of this kid.  That's pure bull-hockey! 

I didn't say the man wasn't willingly seduced, or that he didn't know the act was immoral and illegal, and I agree that it was his responsibility to rebuff her interest. The very reason the law exists is because the act is immoral and the adult is the responsible party.

The term 'seduction' pertains to the party who makes the greatest overtures into establishing a sexual relationship. I wasn't quite 18 at the time, but I can guarantee you that certain 14-year-old girls can be fairly overt and aggressive in asking you into the sack.

What makes teacher-student affairs so upsetting is that authority figures have a responsibility to rebuke and/or address illicit sexual behaviour. The very person who's supposed to be preventing exploitation of a minor is the one exploiting him/her.

[mmhmm]

While a young girl-child may well begin testing her "wiles" at the age of 14, she is certainly NOT a seductress.  Any damned fool who, at 30 years of age, would try to infer he was "seduced" by a 14-year-old kid would meet my ire just before he met the business end of a baseball bat!  I know precisely to what the term "seduction" refers.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 28, 2013 0:46:36 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

While a young girl-child may well begin testing her "wiles" at the age of 14, she is certainly NOT a seductress.  Any damned fool who, at 30 years of age, would try to infer he was "seduced" by a 14-year-old kid would meet my ire just before he met the business end of a baseball bat!  I know precisely to what the term "seduction" refers.

You seem to have linked "seduction" with "responsible party". The word carries no such connotation.

"Seduce" carries a sexual connotation but is otherwise synonymous with "entice".

A female--even a 14-year-old girl--who wears a provocative outfit, sits on the teacher's desk, praises his looks, and brushes her hand against his cheek is attempting to seduce him, I'm sorry.

The responsibility lies with the teacher to rebuff her affections. Nobody is disputing that. But the sexual overtures need not originate from the responsible (adult) party.

Having said that, I have no idea what (if anything) either party in the Rambold case did to seduce the other.

[mmhmm]

Ahh, again I disagree.  The word seduction does, indeed, carry exactly that connotation.  What a child is "attempting" to do is not, necessarily, what that child is doing.  A child can "attempt" to drive a car.  If the child can't see over the steering wheel, or reach the pedals, or know what they do, I'll guarantee you that child is NOT driving that car.  A 14-year-old girl is not nearly as knowledgeable about sex as a 30-year-old man.  He knew what he was doing.  She did not.  If that (I don't even want to call that thing a -) teacher had been any kind of human being, that little girl could have sat on his desk buck naked and the worst he'd have done was tell her to put on her damned clothes. There was no bloody seduction by that child.  The seducer was the waste of DNA.

[Virgil Showlion]

We're not going to sync up our definitions then.

"seduce" is plainly defined as "Entice into sexual activity." "Attempted to seduce" becomes "seduced" if and only if the attempt succeeds, which it obviously would have in any case taken to court.

If we use your definition and require that "to seduce" comes with preconditions on the legal status of the party making the overtures, then we'd need to come up with another term to describe sexual overtures being made in the absence of such preconditions. Pseudoseduction, maybe.

Aside from that, this discussion is treading into the same murky territory that swallowed up my discussion with DJ over NAMBLA a few months ago. He claimed that NAMBLA couldn't be rightly characterized as a liberal organization since an individual cannot be a liberal unless he/she subscribes to a humanist code of ethics*, despite the glaring absence of any such caveat in all known definitions of "liberal".

It taught me, among other things, that some connotations can't be blasted out of people's heads with dynamite.

*and the code of ethics does not condone pedophilia

[EVT1]

Riiiight- because a teacher banging a student is exactly like a student banging a student.

EVT's position would be to arrest the teacher.

What puzzles me is that some of you take the age of 18 as some kind of line in the sand and have no problem subjecting the same punishment for an 18yo HS kid and a 50yo predator.  It tells me most of you have little information on what a real sex crime looks like- I could throw you details that would make you sick. That's why I get irked when people on here spout off about predators or molesters and have no fucking clue what those terms mean.

[Tennesseer]

This Montana judge who gave the school teacher 30 days for raping the 14-year-old girl had another strange case a few years ago:

A Montana judge at the center of a firestorm for giving a 30-day sentence to a teacher who admitted raping a 14-year-old girl has been under scrutiny before.

Last month, the state's Office of the Commissioner of Higher Education criticized Yellowstone County District Judge G. Todd Baugh for dismissing what would have been a woman's 13th conviction for driving under the influence.

In July, a 55-year-old woman from Billings, Montana, was facing what would have been her 13th conviction for drunk driving, but struck a plea deal to avoid that outcome.

Baugh, according to local reports, sentenced her to a three-year suspended sentence for felony criminal endangerment.

The commissioner of higher education said the "most shocking" thing about the case was Baugh's words to the woman: "If you drink and drive and kill someone, you will spend some real time in prison," the judge said, according to the commissioner.


Judge in Montana teen rape case has been under fire before

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 28, 2013 17:30:58 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

This Montana judge who gave the school teacher 30 days for raping the 14-year-old girl had another strange case a few years ago:

A Montana judge at the center of a firestorm for giving a 30-day sentence to a teacher who admitted raping a 14-year-old girl has been under scrutiny before.

Last month, the state's Office of the Commissioner of Higher Education criticized Yellowstone County District Judge G. Todd Baugh for dismissing what would have been a woman's 13th conviction for driving under the influence.

In July, a 55-year-old woman from Billings, Montana, was facing what would have been her 13th conviction for drunk driving, but struck a plea deal to avoid that outcome.

Baugh, according to local reports, sentenced her to a three-year suspended sentence for felony criminal endangerment.

The commissioner of higher education said the "most shocking" thing about the case was Baugh's words to the woman: "If you drink and drive and kill someone, you will spend some real time in prison," the judge said, according to the commissioner.


Judge in Montana teen rape case has been under fire before

Sure. But it's not like she was caught driving drunk 14 times or anything. We need some wiggle room in these laws.

[pappyjohn99]

Right- An adult banging a student is exactly like an adult banging a student.

Pappyjohn's position would be to arrest the teacher.

What puzzles me is that some of you don't understand that the age of 18 is a line in the sand and the law calls for the same punishment for an 18yo HS kid and a 50yo predator. It tells me some of you have inflated concepts on what a real sex crime looks like- I could throw you details about things that happened to my step-daughters that would make you sick. That's why I get irked when people on here spout off about legal terms like predators or molesters and have no fucking clue that abusing children is horrible, regardless of what terms are used.

I would invite those of you that call for prosecutorial and sentencing discresion to look at this with rightous wisdom as an impartial judge dispences it.

[mmhmm]

Pseudoseduction, maybe.

Bingo!  Any "seduction" at the hands of a 14-year-old kid who doesn't know her hiney from third base is, most definitely, a pseudoseduction.  Another way of describing it might be:  What a waste of DNA who takes full advantage of a child likes to call his being "seduced".

[Virgil Showlion]

Pseudoseduction it is.

[mmhmm]

Aug 28, 2013 17:30:58 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

This Montana judge who gave the school teacher 30 days for raping the 14-year-old girl had another strange case a few years ago:

A Montana judge at the center of a firestorm for giving a 30-day sentence to a teacher who admitted raping a 14-year-old girl has been under scrutiny before.

Last month, the state's Office of the Commissioner of Higher Education criticized Yellowstone County District Judge G. Todd Baugh for dismissing what would have been a woman's 13th conviction for driving under the influence.

In July, a 55-year-old woman from Billings, Montana, was facing what would have been her 13th conviction for drunk driving, but struck a plea deal to avoid that outcome.

Baugh, according to local reports, sentenced her to a three-year suspended sentence for felony criminal endangerment.

The commissioner of higher education said the "most shocking" thing about the case was Baugh's words to the woman: "If you drink and drive and kill someone, you will spend some real time in prison," the judge said, according to the commissioner.


Judge in Montana teen rape case has been under fire before

Jackarse the Judge belongs under the jail with the perp who raped the child!

[mmhmm]

Aug 28, 2013 19:27:14 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

Right- An adult banging a student is exactly like an adult banging a student.

Pappyjohn's position would be to arrest the teacher.

What puzzles me is that some of you don't understand that the age of 18 is a line in the sand and the law calls for the same punishment for an 18yo HS kid and a 50yo predator. It tells me some of you have inflated concepts on what a real sex crime looks like- I could throw you details about things that happened to my step-daughters that would make you sick. That's why I get irked when people on here spout off about legal terms like predators or molesters and have no fucking clue that abusing children is horrible, regardless of what terms are used.

I would invite those of you that call for prosecutorial and sentencing discresion to look at this with rightous wisdom as an impartial judge dispences it.

I understand it a lot better than you know, pappyjohn.  I've held more of these little girls than I care to remember ... while they cried their hearts out.

[pappyjohn99]

I know a little myself. I drove my 4 and 5 year old step daughters to the Doctor to be treated for VD. When my buddy up there talks about people not knowing nothing about anything, I wonder if his grand knowledge is as close as mine was. I also know about asshat judges. Ours gave THE MOLESTER, PEDOPHILE, POS visitation to the girls he infected.

I know a liitle about these issues, up close & personal.

[pappyjohn99]

Aug 27, 2013 23:51:40 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Aug 27, 2013 23:33:32 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

It's probably going to work out better if we keep the conversation on the subject of the thread rather than another poster, don'cha think?

I shouldn't have worded my reply like that, you're right.

My apologies, evt. I consider your position in this thread indefensible, but you've been arguing in good faith and shouldn't have to put up with my sarcasm.

I am interested in what EVT1, pappyjohn99, and other outspoken contributors to the thread think about Mr. Rambold's case.

I expect pappyjohn's position to remain consistent: sex with minors is unacceptable; throw the book at Rambold even if he was seduced and/or the victim seemed emotionally mature. He knew the law. He broke the law. There were dire consequences for the victim in this particular case.

I have no idea what evt's position will be.

I could not have spoken as elequently.

[mmhmm]

Aug 28, 2013 20:17:13 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

I know a little myself. I drove my 4 and 5 year old step daughters to the Doctor to be treated for VD. When my buddy up there talks about people not knowing nothing about anything, I wonder if his grand knowledge is as close as mine was. I also know about asshat judges. Ours gave THE MOLESTER, PEDOPHILE, POS visitation to the girls he infected.

I know a liitle about these issues, up close & personal.

I'm so sorry, pappyjohn, for you and, even more I'm afraid, for those little girls.  I hope their version of a waste of DNA didn't ever visit.  If he did, I can only wish with all my heart those children never, never, never had to suffer his hands on them again.  This is the kind of thing that let me know I couldn't work ER anymore, ever.  I was going to do something that would not only lose me my license, but probably get me thrown in jail and the key thrown away.  It's a hot button with me and I admit I don't deal with it well.  Hugs from me to you, and to those dear little girls.

[pappyjohn99]

Thank you for your kind words and hugs. The situation strained our souls and broke our marrige, but it's well in the past and all of us have made our way in the world.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 28, 2013 0:25:12 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I vehemently disagree.  A 14-year-old child CANNOT seduce anybody who isn't very willing to be seduced.  Any 30-year-old man KNOWS sex with a 14-year-old child is illegal, immoral, and downright disgusting.   The responsibility lies fully and completely with the adult.  As I say, the seduction wasn't on the part of this kid.  That's pure bull-hockey! 

ETA:  Warning!  Hot Button glowing.  Meltdown imminent! 

I believe that's what I and others have been saying on this thread all along.  I'm totally consistent- which is why I don't see these two stories as separate.  In each instance, there is a person in a position of influence, who took advantage of a less experienced, younger person.  I know what they say about what happens to child sex offenders in prison, but this guy has to be at least slightly concerned about his short sentence- that is if he has any brains at all.  Someone's daughter committed suicide- does he think there's no price to pay for that?  He'd better sleep with one eye open.

[billisonboard]

Aug 29, 2013 14:00:01 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

... I know what they say about what happens to child sex offenders in prison, but this guy has to be at least slightly concerned about his short sentence- that is if he has any brains at all.  Someone's daughter committed suicide- does he think there's no price to pay for that?  He'd better sleep with one eye open.

For a thirty day sentence, he will not be in a prison. He will be in a county jail. Not sure how hard core the clientele of Yellowstone County, MT lock-up.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 22, 2013 15:29:57 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

It's not 4 years-it's a hair over 3. 

But what I can say is if we prosecuted every HS senior for having sex with a freshman or sophmore
- do we have enough jail space?

At least you agree it isn't molestation- she broke the law and will get punished for it- and apparently I am the lone opinion that the law is bad.  Terms like sexual predator, pedophile, child molester actually mean specific things and the people on here using those terms need to do their homework.

Well, like I said- I turned 18 in the fall of my senior year of high school, and I KNEW what that meant in Illinois. We don't prosecute ALL, we only prosecute those who get caught. And again, for the male of the species- we all KNOW what we're in for if we got caught. Some chose to take the risks, I didn't.

If anything times have changed to the point where the laws should be more stringent. When Florida made the age of consent 16, it was at a time when finishing high school wasn't a forgone conclusion and someone may drop out, get a job- or already have a job- and get married at 16.

Biblical scholars speculate that Mary may have been as young as 14.

Today, probably unfortunately, 16 is as far away from adulthood as 10 or 12. The age of consent has more to do with pubes, boobs, and blood flow. It has to do with emotional maturity, decision making prowess and power. I frankly think Florida should raise the age of consent to 18 for sex with anyone 18 years and older. And no, it doesn't frankly matter if they were 16 and 17 when things started, and now they're 17 and 18. Tough shit- think it through before you begin a relationship-- or have exceptions for emancipated minors and marriage.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 29, 2013 14:10:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 29, 2013 14:00:01 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

... I know what they say about what happens to child sex offenders in prison, but this guy has to be at least slightly concerned about his short sentence- that is if he has any brains at all.  Someone's daughter committed suicide- does he think there's no price to pay for that?  He'd better sleep with one eye open.

For a thirty day sentence, he will not be in a prison. He will be in a county jail. Not sure how hard core the clientele of Yellowstone County, MT lock-up.

I'm referring to his status OUT of prison- or the lock up, or whatever.  If it was my daughter, he'd be MUCH safer in jail.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 28, 2013 20:17:13 GMT -5 pappyjohn99 said:

I know a little myself. I drove my 4 and 5 year old step daughters to the Doctor to be treated for VD. When my buddy up there talks about people not knowing nothing about anything, I wonder if his grand knowledge is as close as mine was. I also know about asshat judges. Ours gave THE MOLESTER, PEDOPHILE, POS visitation to the girls he infected.

I know a liitle about these issues, up close & personal.

Unbelievable.  Is he dead yet?  (You don't have to answer that)

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 28, 2013 19:42:49 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Aug 28, 2013 17:30:58 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

This Montana judge who gave the school teacher 30 days for raping the 14-year-old girl had another strange case a few years ago:

Jackarse the Judge belongs under the jail with the perp who raped the child!

Damn conservative judges! Screw those bastards! 

Oh, wait.  It was another stupid ass liberal judge.  He'll probably get appointed to SCOTUS by Hillary.

[mmhmm]

Aug 29, 2013 14:19:40 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Aug 28, 2013 19:42:49 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Jackarse the Judge belongs under the jail with the perp who raped the child!

Damn conservative judges! Screw those bastards! 

Oh, wait.  It was another stupid ass liberal judge.  He'll probably get appointed to SCOTUS by Hillary.

Oh, was it really, Paul?  How, pray tell, do we know the political affiliation of this judge, and how does it pertain to this ruling?  I'm sure you must have a link to provide citing proof of the judge's affiliation.


LOL!  Somehow, I'm not surprised at the din of crickets ...

[frankq]

Seriously....if you are 30, and you think 14 year olds are hot, you've got a real problem.......

[Tennesseer]

Aug 29, 2013 14:10:25 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Aug 29, 2013 14:00:01 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

... I know what they say about what happens to child sex offenders in prison, but this guy has to be at least slightly concerned about his short sentence- that is if he has any brains at all.  Someone's daughter committed suicide- does he think there's no price to pay for that?  He'd better sleep with one eye open.

For a thirty day sentence, he will not be in a prison. He will be in a county jail. Not sure how hard core the clientele of Yellowstone County, MT lock-up.

Just Yogi Bear and BooBoo in lock-up with him after they were caught raiding 'pic-a-nic' baskets.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 29, 2013 14:47:51 GMT -5 frankq said:

Seriously....if you are 30, and you think 14 year olds are hot, you've got a real problem.......

Dude, I cannot stand the thought of young women- let alone teenagers.  The immaturity itself is a turnoff.  Even if they don't say a word, the though of what they might say, or even what they might be thinking would have me in knots. I'm in my forties and the thought of a 30 year old is frightening.  I guess I'm turned on by more than just a warm place to put it...

[frankq]

I guess this asswipe never learned the "guy equation". For a guy to find a woman of the perfect age at any time in his life, take the guy's age, divide by two and add 10. Never fails. 

[Tennesseer]

Aug 29, 2013 19:49:12 GMT -5 frankq said:

I guess this asswipe never learned the "guy equation". For a guy to find a woman of the perfect age at any time in his life, take the guy's age, divide by two and add 10. Never fails. 

That puts paul's perfect mate around 31 years old.  The same age he states he has no interest.

So much for your theory.

[Virgil Showlion]

Aug 29, 2013 19:49:12 GMT -5 frankq said:

I guess this asswipe never learned the "guy equation". For a guy to find a woman of the perfect age at any time in his life, take the guy's age, divide by two and add 10. Never fails. 

...except if he's married, at which point he calculates the perfect age by taking his wife's exact age, dividing by two, dividing by two again, then multiplying by four if he knows what's good for him.