movingforward
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Post by movingforward on May 21, 2013 16:10:03 GMT -5
This is OT but last week when I went out for a walk a neighbors dog came running out of nowhere and bit me on the leg . I couldn't believe it. Most dogs run up to me wanting love and this one just took a bite out of me!
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on May 21, 2013 16:11:28 GMT -5
There are always risks, steve. MidJD already quoted regulations which prohibit what you want to do, but most people aren't lawyers so may not know that.
However, most people ARE self-interested, and may decide to act how they see fit. What if the chick who has an allergic reaction is on a date with a lawyer, or someone from animal control, or just a bad tempered guy who kicks your butt.
There are already enough inconsiderate dog owners out there. You can do better.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 21, 2013 16:22:46 GMT -5
I think it's rather cruel to expect a dog to sit quietly holed up in a baby carriage for upwards of an hour while you eat lunch. Definitely does not fit my definition of a good dog owner.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 21, 2013 16:36:00 GMT -5
It doesn't hurt anyone until it finally does. The rules aren't there because every single animal in a restaurant will cause an incident/reaction/etc, it's because one of them finally will. So you could equally say that it's okay to run every single red light you come across as long as you don't hit anyone directly. It'll be fine until the one time it isn't, which is why we all agree communally to the traffic rules. We can all be cavalier about things that don't bother us (like dogs in restaurants), but we live in a communal society where our rights end where the next person's begin. I completely disagree with your view on this. If you break some rule and no one is hurt then no one was hurt. A dog in a enclosed baby carriage isnt going to hurt anyone. Running every red light you come across will eventually kill someone. I often run red lights on my motorcylce. I will stop at a red light and the weight of the motorcycle or the sensor will not see the motorcylce. I would end up at a light that doesnt sense anything therefore doesnt change. So I look both ways and run the red light. All you or I can do is think for ourselves and make the best decisions we can. If you think rules should always be respected then live your life that way. If you think some rules really dont accomplish much and breaking them works for you then I would suggest you break those rules and deal with the consequences. You can't control when breaking a rule will harm someone else and when it won't. You are not omniscient, nor can you foretell the future. And by deliberately choosing to ignore some rules, such as traffic rules, or even rules governing sanitation around public food, you are saying that you have the right to take *other people's* lives into your hands. You don't have that right. You have the right to decide that your dog is clean enough to be around your own food. You don't have the inalienable right to decide whether it's clean enough to be around MY food. I have the right to patronize a place with a rule against it and expect the other diners to not endanger my own life. Just as you would have that same right against what I choose to do.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 21, 2013 16:56:55 GMT -5
do you really think I am endangering the lives of others if I put my dog in a baby stroller and take her into a restaurant? What if she were lying on my jacket on the couch earlier and I wear that to a restaurant, could that kill someone. I get your point, dont take a dog to a restaurant, but your argument is moving past silly. Maybe it could kill someone, who knows. But I think there's a reasonable expectation patrons have that people might have some animal hair on their clothes. And if there's a little dog hair on your jacket, no kids are going to get bitten from your dog hair jacket. Likewise they're also not likely going to get any germs that your animal has.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 21, 2013 17:19:55 GMT -5
If you have a foolproof way to ensure that no germs will ever be spread by an animal (or human), I'm sure the CDC would love to hear from you. (Ever seen one of those slow-motion videos of a sneeze?)
Because such a method does not yet exist, the FDA and other food-safety organizations have designed rules to help prevent the spread of illness. You may not agree with them, but they exist for a reason.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on May 21, 2013 17:32:23 GMT -5
Do you not have restaurants with seating outside that are dog friendly? We have many here. Some are even dog friendly inside of restaurants so if somebody doesn't like it they can avoid that place. And do you really want to be known as the dude who goes around town with his Lab in a baby carriage? If so, make sure you put a baby bonnet on her so people can really remember you. It's still better than being known as the town drunk. Just ask @missmargarita. AWWWWW!
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on May 21, 2013 17:36:50 GMT -5
Why would you even want to take your dog into a restaurant if it had to be confined and hidden in a carriage (or something similar) where it would be surrounded by people and the smell of food - but not be able to see the people or eat the food? That sounds pretty cruel. The dog would be better off at home alone with a dish or food and a bowl of water and able to walk around at will than be caged-up and out of sight while you dine. And you can't guarantee that it wouldn't make a sound.
Are you that attached to your animal or that insecure that you can't go to a restaurant without it? I presume you work - do you take your doggie to work with you (and in a baby carriage) too?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 21, 2013 18:13:25 GMT -5
do you really think I am endangering the lives of others if I put my dog in a baby stroller and take her into a restaurant? What if she were lying on my jacket on the couch earlier and I wear that to a restaurant, could that kill someone. I get your point, dont take a dog to a restaurant, but your argument is moving past silly. The argument only gets past silly if you assume that the dog can't possibly get out of the carriage. Since even small dogs are a heck of a lot stronger than babies, it doesn't seem that beyond the pale to think that a device that was designed to hold a baby might not be able to restrain a dog, especially a dog that is justifiably freaked out because it's idiot owner dragged it to a place with all kinds of strange sounds and smells. If a freaked out dog gets loose in a restaurant, you've got a lot more to worry about than some ultra severe allergic reaction. The poor animal could jump on someone, bite someone, dart into the kitchen, and so on.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 21, 2013 18:16:53 GMT -5
do you really think I am endangering the lives of others if I put my dog in a baby stroller and take her into a restaurant? What if she were lying on my jacket on the couch earlier and I wear that to a restaurant, could that kill someone. I get your point, dont take a dog to a restaurant, but your argument is moving past silly. It's a big world, and people are allergic to all kinds of things. Since I dont know the medical history of the diners next to me, I can't say that they wouldn't be harmed by my pet. So how would it be my right to make that decision for them by sneaking my dog in unbeknownst to everyone? The point is that if you are unilaterally allowed to make decisions for all the other patrons without consulting them, how is that different from what people complain big government is doing?
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 21, 2013 18:37:34 GMT -5
Service dogs are used publicly and usually have signs that they are there for a reason. Others can make an informed decision about being around the animal.. You want to sneak yours around other people and not let them make an informed decision. You want to take the decision out of other people's hands without their consent.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 21, 2013 18:37:35 GMT -5
And your point is?
ETA, this was in response to Steve's assertion that he wasn't an idiot owner.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 21, 2013 18:43:26 GMT -5
We're not talking about some idiot owner, we are talking about me. So you want to make up your own rules but not allow others to do the same? How do we decide who is worthy of making up their own rules and who is not? Who decides that you have good judgement but Bob at the next table has bad judgement and must follow the rules? And are we each really that good at determining if we have good judgement or not?
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milee
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Post by milee on May 21, 2013 18:47:06 GMT -5
Eh, I think it's a little dramatic to make this into a life or death situation. IMHO, it's not that this will likely kill other people, it's that this is kinda jerky behavior. That and really, you will be handing in your Man Card. This just doesn't sound like a good thing for anybody, not the people around you and not you, either. Edited to add: I think we were coming to this conclusion at the same time, Steve.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 21, 2013 18:55:11 GMT -5
I'm done arguing with you. If you think a dog in a stroller is a life threatening risk, then have at it. I think that belief is ridiculous. I think it doesn't matter. You feel you have the right to do what you please as long as *in your own opinion* it won't affect others. But you are really setting yourself up as more important than those around you. I understand that you want to make your own choices, but you should understand that unless you live on a deserted island, many of those choices also affect others around you. They deserve their rights just as much as you do.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 21, 2013 19:04:11 GMT -5
What about the restaurant owner, if he gets caught with an animal in his restaurant? The health department might punish him with a fine or worse? You have now affected his business without his consent. Forget allergies or whatever, you may be threatening the honest livelihood of that owner just to insist on your own personal choice behind his back. That doesn't sound very fair of you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 21:58:42 GMT -5
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 22, 2013 10:01:45 GMT -5
I'm done arguing with you. If you think a dog in a stroller is a life threatening risk, then have at it. I think that belief is ridiculous. It's unlikely that your dog will kill someone. It, however is very likely that your dog will get loose and hurt someone. And it does seem cruel to take a dog into a strange place unable to see what is going on around him and expect him to just sit there. I really can't see how this poor animal won't be freaked out by it all. I used to own a cat, and even I wouldn't attempt what you're talking about, because I know it would traumatize him.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on May 22, 2013 10:50:41 GMT -5
What about the restaurant owner, if he gets caught with an animal in his restaurant? The health department might punish him with a fine or worse? You have now affected his business without his consent. Forget allergies or whatever, you may be threatening the honest livelihood of that owner just to insist on your own personal choice behind his back. That doesn't sound very fair of you. There was a seafood restaurant in Galveston, TX that had cats roaming around all over the place. They would come to your table and sit around waiting for food to drop. They never jump on any people or furniture. It closed down a few years ago. The food was just okay but the atmosphere was pretty cool. I like cats though...
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 22, 2013 11:02:39 GMT -5
My happy little Maltese just snapped at me last night when I startled her while she was sleeping. So, yes, it happens, even with well-behaved and well-adjusted dogs in their home environments. It's not a big deal for me and my own dog, but if someone else's dog bit my kid, it's a much bigger deal.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 22, 2013 11:11:57 GMT -5
I startled the dog when she was sleeping. Good lord. It's not a trait, it was an accident. My point is that even great dogs (and she's a great dog!) can be startled by well-intentioned people/kids. No dog is completely immune to being startled, annoyed, or have a bad moment. Kinda like people.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on May 22, 2013 11:14:12 GMT -5
Steve - didn't you say your dog is a puppy? I wouldn't expect a puppy to just sit in a stroller. Kind of like when I go to a nice restaurant and people bring a toddler in expecting they are going to have perfect manners. I am not upset with the child but with the parent for not realizing that kids can only sit still for so long. They need to run, jump and play. The same can be said for a puppy.
Also, the bottom line is the owner can decide if he/she wants animals in their establishment. If they don't then you either go somewhere that has a patio so you can take your dog or you eat at home. It is the same with hotels. If people want to travel with their animals then they pick hotels that are pet friendly. Simple as that.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 22, 2013 11:18:38 GMT -5
Also, the bottom line is the owner can decide if he/she wants animals in their establishment. If they don't then you either go somewhere that has a patio so you can take your dog or you eat at home. It is the same with hotels. If people want to travel with their animals then they pick hotels that are pet friendly. Simple as that. Business owners have the right to decide how they want to run their business. If you don't like their choices, take your business somewhere that fits your needs. Someone who professes to believe in the right of self-determination should respect that right of others.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 22, 2013 11:19:42 GMT -5
I startled the dog when she was sleeping. Good lord. It's not a trait, it was an accident. My point is that even great dogs (and she's a great dog!) can be startled by well-intentioned people/kids. No dog is completely immune to being startled, annoyed, or have a bad moment. Kinda like people. Biting is not an accident. If she bites when she is startled how do you protect others when taking her to a park? I hope you put her in a muzzle or have good insurance since you already know of the problem. Twenty years for me as a dog owner and the only accidental dog bite was a car accident that hurt the dog bad enough to need a vet. Dogs shouldn't bite. If they do then you need to teach it not to. Well, gosh, I hope you don't take that dog in a car any more, so as to avoid ever risking it becoming upset again. Clearly, it's a trait of a badly-behaved dog.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on May 22, 2013 11:25:21 GMT -5
I find it very hard to believe that someone who thinks it's a good idea to bring a puppy into a resaurant in a baby carriage can possibly train a dog to the same standards as the service dogs. You're showing a staggering lack of common sense and lack of consideration for the dog. Even a professional trainer probably is unlikely to get the animal trained to service dog standards while it is still a puppy.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 22, 2013 11:30:43 GMT -5
For one thing, I don't sneak any animal into places in a baby carriage. As a responsible pet owner, I am honest with the people I am around and help them make informed decisons. And oddly, enough, it works.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 22, 2013 11:31:04 GMT -5
I'll say it again, you have a lab. Good luck with your plan. Service dogs are trained by professionals and it's much more extensive than your standard obedience school. Lots of dogs fail out of service dog training. I wouldn't consider myself as an average owner remoately qualifed to train my dog to service level standards. Just find someplace that welcomes dogs or do a picnic in the park. Why do you feel you have the right to disregard how the business chooses to operate?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 22, 2013 11:38:48 GMT -5
I'll say it again, you have a lab. Good luck with your plan. Exactly. Labs are food whores.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on May 22, 2013 11:43:10 GMT -5
Steve, where are you getting that Rocky's dog is a "biter"? She only posted that the dog "snapped" at her.
Any dog can bite. And I'd say in 99.9% of dog bite cases causing injury, immediately preceding the bite the owners would say "X is such a good dog, she'd never hurt anyone!"
The entire point is that you don't know what can happen, especially when an animal is in a new/unfamiliar/stressful situation. I think being confined in a baby carriage in a restaurant (when the dog itself is not being fed) would qualify.
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Rocky Mtn Saver
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Post by Rocky Mtn Saver on May 22, 2013 11:49:10 GMT -5
Even if that were the case, at least I would be honest and responsible enough to warn people by being open with them. You'd rather stick your dog in a hidey-hole and take away people's ability to decide or protect themselves.
I have a good dog, as I'm sure you do as well. But nothing in life is 100% certain, which is, again the point people have been trying to make. Although since you can apparently foretell the future and control all events, this is apparently not something you need to worry about. I'll go and see what's up with the non-omniscient folks!
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