NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,542
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 15:35:03 GMT -5
There are some bad apples out there. Yes the stories are horrifying, but does that really paint an accurate picture of daycare problems in the US
Not remotely. That's like saying one bad doctor is the entire issue with our health care system.
If they wanted to argue that TEXAS needs to do a better job regulating their daycares after the incident I' whole heartedly agree
But you can't take what happened in Texas and apply it to another state since the laws are not going to be the same.
Same with costs. What I pay here vs what Carl'd pay in Boston is astronomical, but we have very different costs of living. Pretty much everything costs him more than it does me. How do we define too expensive?
There are separate issues that they're trying to address and apply one solution to. Each one of the subjects should be it's own article with its own proposed solutions, IMO.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Apr 22, 2013 15:40:42 GMT -5
Didn't Ym decide years ago that all poor people should be shot and killed? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Daycares are a simple case of supply and demand. Parents have to have day care for their children in order to work,and there are not many places lisenced to provide care. As a result it is very expensive. The vast majority of people simply do not see welfare as a viable alternative. So the parent takes home $500 a week say, and they have to have $350 a week to keep living indoors and eat. So they aren't going to even look at DCP's that cost more than that $150 a week amount period. They just look at the one or two that is in their budget and hope and pray that their baby will be okay. As far as DCP state inspectors they are more like firefighters than regulators. If the place isn't on fire they probably won't have a minute free to spend checking them out. It is probably all they can do just to find time to check on the ones that they have had complaints or tips about, let alone the ones they haven't. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif)
|
|
formerroomate99
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 12, 2011 13:33:12 GMT -5
Posts: 7,381
|
Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 22, 2013 15:41:20 GMT -5
From what I've heard, a huge chunk of the daycare center's income goes to the insurance company and that daycare is really a low profit margin business.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 15:41:29 GMT -5
I guess I'm just confused. The problems outlined in the article are. 1. Daycare is to expensive. 2. The existing framework of licensure and certifications is insufficient to promote an acceptable level of safety. 3. Daycare is expensive based on the current framework of certifications and licensure. The money is certainly not going to the workers, that's for sure. So I fail to see how more regulations and more certifications and more licensure will reduce costs for those who can't afford it. And if the current systems are ineffective, then why pile on more? Shouldn't we be looking at other solutions to the problem than what's already been tried? IMHO, licensing and certifications are not expensive. We are probably talking hundreds of dollars a year, Archie - remember the friend I've mentioned who used to work at my daughter's daycare? She's attempting to get licensed to open her own center (commercial not home). She's about 14 months into the venture. During that time she's paying rent at 25% until the business opens. She has two years max on the rent concession then has to go to 100%. Numerous inspections, changes to building configuration, installation of security cameras in EVERY room (except the bathrooms) installing an 8ft privacy fence (as opposed to a 6 ft privacy fence - the area is now considered semi-industrial), upgrading the sprinkler and smoke alarm systems. With the exception of the fence (which was donated by community activists since she wants to serve in an underserved area), she has paid for everything out of pocket herself. She's been pretty resourceful in sourcing the playground equipment and desks and chairs from other centers in the state which have closed, but she is still in it for a lot of money. So far the inspector has found something to fail the inspection at every turn (last time the amount of airflow from the vent provided in the kitchen was not enough). She can only get an inspector to come out every three months or so (apparently there is a backlog for startups). She has hired licensed contractors but apparently the standards are different for daycare kitchens as opposed to restaraunt kitchens. She's run background checks on every prospective employee (about 10-14 depending on quickly she can get the center opened). We are talking significantly more than hundreds of dollars a year.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 15:46:19 GMT -5
IMHO, licensing and certifications are not expensive. We are probably talking hundreds of dollars a year, Archie - remember the friend I've mentioned who used to work at my daughter's daycare? She's attempting to get licensed to open her own center (commercial not home). She's about 14 months into the venture. During that time she's paying rent at 25% until the business opens. She has two years max on the rent concession then has to go to 100%. Numerous inspections, changes to building configuration, installation of security cameras in EVERY room (except the bathrooms) installing an 8ft privacy fence (as opposed to a 6 ft privacy fence - the area is now considered semi-industrial), upgrading the sprinkler and smoke alarm systems. With the exception of the fence (which was donated by community activists since she wants to serve in an underserved area), she has paid for everything out of pocket herself. She's been pretty resourceful in sourcing the playground equipment and desks and chairs from other centers in the state which have closed, but she is still in it for a lot of money. So far the inspector has found something to fail the inspection at every turn (last time the amount of airflow from the vent provided in the kitchen was not enough). She can only get an inspector to come out every three months or so (apparently there is a backlog for startups). She has hired licensed contractors but apparently the standards are different for daycare kitchens as opposed to restaraunt kitchens. She's run background checks on every prospective employee (about 10-14 depending on quickly she can get the center opened). We are talking significantly more than hundreds of dollars a year. That is not the license cost itself, though. That is the cost of running a business.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,542
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 15:48:38 GMT -5
So far the inspector has found something to fail the inspection at every turn
DH and I joke that in our professions if you haven't committed at least one violation you're not doing your job. I bet running a daycare feels the same way.
Reading the rules it was so convoluted I don't understand how anyone is ever found in compliance. I think streamling and making the rules a hell of a lot simpler would go a long way. It'd be so much easier to have a 10 point check list than have to read pages of exceptions and figure out which one you are.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 16:17:33 GMT -5
So far the inspector has found something to fail the inspection at every turn
DH and I joke that in our professions if you haven't committed at least one violation you're not doing your job. I bet running a daycare feels the same way. Reading the rules it was so convoluted I don't understand how anyone is ever found in compliance. I think streamling and making the rules a hell of a lot simpler would go a long way. It'd be so much easier to have a 10 point check list than have to read pages of exceptions and figure out which one you are. Little OT but when I was in college we took great pride in having a spotless and well run cafeteria. We had a state inspection every year (unannounced) including everything from pulling the ovens from the walls to inspecting the grease traps and checking the floor/shelves in the fridge/freezer and dishroom. We knew we'd aced it when the only point the inspector could find was a thermometer that was not registering the temperature correctly (it was off a few degrees) in one of the refridgerators.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 22, 2013 17:14:34 GMT -5
I agree with DramaQ the article is trying to tie multiple problems to daycare together. In my opinion, the cost issue and the safety issues need to be looked at separately. Also there's a difference between in home providors and facilities and the regulations for each. Furthermore, it appears regulations regarding safety vary by state, so you can't look at one state, like Texas, and then say there's a problem nationwide. And it's easy to find bad examples of daycares, there are bad daycares just like there are bad everything else. That's not necessarily news.
|
|
doxieluvr
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 11:28:59 GMT -5
Posts: 5,458
|
Post by doxieluvr on Apr 22, 2013 17:45:52 GMT -5
Didn't Ym decide years ago that all poor people should be shot and killed? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Daycares are a simple case of supply and demand. Parents have to have day care for their children in order to work,and there are not many places lisenced to provide care. As a result it is very expensive. The vast majority of people simply do not see welfare as a viable alternative. So the parent takes home $500 a week say, and they have to have $350 a week to keep living indoors and eat. So they aren't going to even look at DCP's that cost more than that $150 a week amount period. They just look at the one or two that is in their budget and hope and pray that their baby will be okay. As far as DCP state inspectors they are more like firefighters than regulators. If the place isn't on fire they probably won't have a minute free to spend checking them out. It is probably all they can do just to find time to check on the ones that they have had complaints or tips about, let alone the ones they haven't. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) This is very true. I priced daycare last week. For an in home daycare it is $185 a week for a 2 1/2 year old. It drops to $175 once he turns three. I bring home roughly $450 -$500 a week working. As a single mom in MD it would take every bit of $350, if not $400 a week to have a roof over your head and utilities. At that point a single mom would have to have food stamps for food. Hope and pray they could find daycare for $100 a week and save the EITC to pay for gas and auto insurance for a car that they own free and clear. No idea where clothes and shoes, birthdays and christmas would come from. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Apr 22, 2013 18:20:34 GMT -5
Hey, you were the one who decided it was a good idea to have kids. Why is it up to me to foot the bill for raising them via subsidized child care?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 18:30:40 GMT -5
...ahem, we still can't afford it... We choose not to afford it, conversely some may argue- we can't afford not to. So where do we draw the line? Where does personal responsibility kicks in?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 18:50:54 GMT -5
Hey, you were the one who decided it was a good idea to have kids. Why is it up to me to foot the bill for raising them via subsidized child care? In general, I agree with you; I paid 100% of DS' child care and figured it was my choice to have him and to go back to work, so my responsibility. Many countries are facing major demographic issues with the ageing of the population; their public pension systems are dependent on a steady stream of young people into the workforce to support those retiring. In Germany, France, Japan, the US, even Mexico, the ratio of people in the workforce to people collecting pensions is expected to decrease to scary levels in 20 to 30 years. Subsidized daycare is one way countries hope to reverse declining birth rates. It can also be argued that a second parent in the workforce increases the tax revenues (well, unless they get the EIC!) and can be a good way to encourage lower-income women to get a start on the job ladder. Still, I don't like the idea of adding one more thing to the list the taxpayers are expected to provide.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 18:54:46 GMT -5
Apparently personal responsibility is out the window. 1. Everyone has the right to breed, regardless of the ability to support such asserted rights 2. Everyone has the right to have children, regardless of how rotten a job they do parenting (we don't want to start down that slipperly slope now do we?) 3. Everyone has the right to expect their choices to be subsidized by those who chose to wait or limit the number of kids they have until they could support them
And if you DARE to challenge any of the above assertions you are:
1. Cold and heartless because, we can't let the children suffer for the poor choices of their parents 2. Elitist because you clearly think only rich people should have kids 3. A puppy kicking demon who thinks that children should be removed from their homes and sent to government indoctrination camps/orphanages where they will always be treated far worse then they were at home.
Of course bring this up and risk the wrath of those who claim that YOU must be perfect, YOU must always have a plan and of course you never do anything wrong. Or GOD FORBID something bad ever happens to you and you need some help at some point in your life.
Because everyone in a bad position never got that way by making a series of poor choices.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 19:06:35 GMT -5
And so your genius solution would be.... ?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 22, 2013 20:00:16 GMT -5
We choose not to afford it, conversely some may argue- we can't afford not to. So where do we draw the line? Where does personal responsibility kicks in? Not having kids that you can't afford to take care of?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 22, 2013 20:00:56 GMT -5
And so your genius solution would be.... ? I'd willing pay to have the welfare queens tubes tied...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 20:13:45 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 20:19:17 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 21:27:48 GMT -5
And so your genius solution would be.... ? I'd willing pay to have the welfare queens tubes tied... That doesn't help the kids already here.
|
|
Peace Of Mind
Senior Associate
[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:53:02 GMT -5
Posts: 15,554
Location: Paradise
|
Post by Peace Of Mind on Apr 22, 2013 23:16:13 GMT -5
Let's say the poor don't have those rights. Who will govern/monitor that they abide by those rules/laws? The Government? The police? Child services? At what cost? Then people would scream less government. And what do you think would be cheaper? Helping to feed the kids or trying to control/monitor the poor' people's lives? I would really like to know what the solution could be for such a scenario. That's not including the children already born.
I sure don't have the answers but prefer the solution where kids are safer and fed.
|
|
doxieluvr
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 11:28:59 GMT -5
Posts: 5,458
|
Post by doxieluvr on Apr 23, 2013 6:07:24 GMT -5
But is the program being funded? maryland has a similar program but it had a wait list and then it was froze. "NEW! The Child Care Subsidy program is lifting the wait list for some Maryland families. The wait list that has been in effect since February 28, 2012, will be opened for non-temporary cash assistance families that have a gross income level at or below $15,098 for a family of three. Families with income above that level will be in a frozen status, which means eligible for service, but unable to receive vouchers due to a lack of funding. Please click here for details about the waiting list."
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,873
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 23, 2013 6:24:17 GMT -5
Frankly, the welfare recipients who choose not to obtain job skills that enable them to leave welfare can work these places, for free, watching the others who choose to get a job skills kids. It might actually reduce the amount of people having children they can't support if they actually had to work watching other kids and not sit home watching Jerry. I think they should have to volunteer for benefits at least 40 hours per week, here ya go. Instant job. If you don't have to pay them because they're already on taxpayer dime, that money can go toward reduced fees for those who are working. Win-win!
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Apr 23, 2013 6:48:55 GMT -5
When you have a situation where HALF of the children in the country (at least of schoolage) are in households below the poverty line there is a social issue.
The message, apparently, is that it is ok to have children you cannot feed or support because society will pick up the tab, it is the responsibility of "society" to do so.
I've posted the tax rates in the countries with the wonderful socialist programs. No one has addressed that, only that they want "someone" to be responsible for "the children"
Well - for everyone who thinks enough is not being done to help, put your money where your mouth is - that's right - reach into your pocket - pull out 10-20% more your gross pay (in addition to whatever taxes you pay now) and find some underserved parent and offer to pay for their daycare and to feed and cloth their child.
If all the folks who think it is everyones responsibility to care for other's children do this, then the problem should be quickly solved.
Don't want to? Really? Your moral position is ok only as long as it hits everyone elses's pocketbooks first?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,873
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 23, 2013 7:25:44 GMT -5
Amen, Captain, seems like those programs are meant to be funded by YOU, not those who want those programs. If you stopped paying people for bad behavior, it would stop. Not completely but a good portion of it would. Back in the Stone Age, if you couldn't support your illegitimate child, you gave it up for adoption or your family helped out. A temporary issue I have no problem with but this is lifetime after lifetime. A temp issue family and charitable groups can help with. You don't have to give your kids up even if they're in foster care and it teaches a very good. Lesson. Be prepared or your kids can end up away from you until you are. But we can sure spin out how awful it is to separate parents And children when just a few dollars can make a difference. Well, it isn't a few dollars and it isn't temporary. It fosters a mentality that the middle class is now starting to emulate.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 23, 2013 7:42:24 GMT -5
When you have a situation where HALF of the children in the country (at least of schoolage) are in households below the poverty line there is a social issue. The message, apparently, is that it is ok to have children you cannot feed or support because society will pick up the tab, it is the responsibility of "society" to do so. I've posted the tax rates in the countries with the wonderful socialist programs. No one has addressed that, only that they want "someone" to be responsible for "the children" Well - for everyone who thinks enough is not being done to help, put your money where your mouth is - that's right - reach into your pocket - pull out 10-20% more your gross pay (in addition to whatever taxes you pay now) and find some underserved parent and offer to pay for their daycare and to feed and cloth their child. If all the folks who think it is everyones responsibility to care for other's children do this, then the problem should be quickly solved. Don't want to? Really? Your moral position is ok only as long as it hits everyone elses's pocketbooks first? So much this... A few months ago my dd came home from schools spouting off that her liberal ass teacher told her that it was our responsibility to take care of those "less fortunate" (ie, don't want to pull themselves up by the boostraps and do what needs to be done). Instead of getting angry (well, I was that her teacher had the nerve to try to brainwash my child) I told her that if her heart truly believes that, then she has to put her money where her mouth is. She gets $100 a month allowance so I told her that on the first of the month I would give her $70 and I would give the other $30 to children who were less fortunate than she. She suddenly joined the republican party when she thought of it coming directly out of her pocket and went from "it is our responsibility" to "tell them to get jobs"!lol
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:42 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 7:44:58 GMT -5
Yeah, 30% of your paycheck goes to leeches... Lol.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:42 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 7:45:33 GMT -5
Yeah, all poor kids should get jobs if they want to eat... ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rolleyes2.gif)
|
|
doxieluvr
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 11:28:59 GMT -5
Posts: 5,458
|
Post by doxieluvr on Apr 23, 2013 7:54:37 GMT -5
This is the real problem.
"I priced daycare last week. For an in home daycare it is $185 a week for a 2 1/2 year old. It drops to $175 once he turns three.
I bring home roughly $450 -$500 a week working. As a single mom in MD it would take every bit of $350, if not $400 a week to have a roof over your head and utilities. At that point a single mom would have to have food stamps for food. Hope and pray they could find daycare for $100 a week and save the EITC to pay for gas and auto insurance for a car that they own free and clear.
No idea where clothes and shoes, birthdays and christmas would come from."
until you can offer a real solution your always going to have a need for welfare.
|
|
doxieluvr
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 11:28:59 GMT -5
Posts: 5,458
|
Post by doxieluvr on Apr 23, 2013 7:56:04 GMT -5
Yeah, all poor kids should get jobs if they want to eat... ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rolleyes2.gif) High schoolers can't find jobs, yet you expect toddlers can? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/rolleyes.gif) Yeah..ok.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Jul 2, 2024 22:06:41 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 8:09:16 GMT -5
so now we're advocating for ZERO social services? If we did that, some of you might not be here today to post on this thread.
|
|