zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Apr 22, 2013 12:18:50 GMT -5
Not sure if this should be under the Political forum thread or not, but I just picked up an interesting article about the state of American daycares. Quite frankly, it's horrifying. The article focuses on a recent national study that finds all sort of horrible conditions in private daycares - feces and vomit left uncleaned, kids practically warehoused with no toys, books or other stimulation, severe injuries and even deaths caused by staff not paying attention to kids. Probably the most horrible situation involved a daycare owner in Texas burning 4 toddlers to death. Long story short, there are few regulations over daycare, and many daycare center owners/staff are paid barely minimum wage. Now, compare the situation in Germany and France where daycares are subsidized, staff are paid well but expected to have degrees in early education, and the government regularly inspects facilities. www.newrepublic.com/article/112892/hell-american-day-care#Final thought - I understand the resistance from stay-at-home moms to pay taxes for daycare. But the reality is if you're a single mom, you need to work and often there aren't good options available to you. Furthermore, good quality daycare would probably greatly help at-risk children and give them the skills they need to succeed and break out of poverty. At the very least, I can't see why anyone would argue against much greater accountability and oversight.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 22, 2013 12:21:18 GMT -5
I don't know about anywhere else, but NY State regulates day cares very tightly. My day care provider has to go trainings, keep copious records, and is subject to inspections.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 12:28:07 GMT -5
Stupid proboards eating my posts!
It'll never happen because we've been taught to believe that it'll be the downfall of society to federally fund/oversight daycare. It's communism/socialism/whatever-ism. It'll encourage more "welfare queens".
Iowa tightly regulates daycares, according to the web site Iowa has some of the tighest laws in the country. Nebraska is similar to Iowa for facilites but differs when it comes to home daycare. It's amazing how fast things change with a simple 15 minute drive across the river.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 22, 2013 12:28:54 GMT -5
Our daycare centers are also very tightly regulated. They even developed a rating system to judge all licensed daycare.
One place we checked out looked nice, seemed to check out.. Then I went to drop my child off...only to watch another child stick his head in the toilet (presumably drinking the water) while neither teacher in the room noticed. (To be fair, though, one was going around showing us the ropes for the day).
I took my kid home that day and didn't return.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Apr 22, 2013 12:30:25 GMT -5
<<< At the very least, I can't see why anyone would argue against much greater accountability and oversight. >>>
...because we can't afford it...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 12:31:49 GMT -5
NJ does a pretty good job of regulating DC. The one we take DS to is part of the mission for a church, so the costs are lower since the church spays some of the DC's overhead expenses. There are an appropriate amount of teachers/toys/activities per class. Now if he would only stop getting sick.... ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 22, 2013 12:34:24 GMT -5
We are doing such a wiz-bang job at K-12, why not bring preschool and daycare into the mix?
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 22, 2013 12:38:39 GMT -5
Wasn't that the argument to get the government to start a voucher system for pre-K? And I'm pretty sure starting the system hasn't greatly improved education or poverty rates.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 22, 2013 12:39:53 GMT -5
"We can't afford it" seems like a pretty hollow rationale when you have babies being burned to death as a result of the lack of oversight and accountability.
I read that article over the weekend. I cannot imagine the guilt and anguish the parents of those kids feel. Several expressed their reluctance to leave their kids there, but felt they had no other choice - they had to get to work, and were either waitlisted at or couldn't afford other places.
I might gripe at the cost of daycare, but at least I have the financial ability to pay for it, and - worst case scenario - DH could quit his job to SAHP. Not everyone is that lucky, and it's not just because they didn't make good choices.
And I'd rather pay to subsidize daycare than pay to subsidize someone to stay at home with their kids. Realistically, many low-income single parents don't have many other options. Subsidizing daycare and allowing someone to earn a living while knowing their child is being kept safe seems better (and cheaper) than paying to support the entire family because mom can't afford to go to work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 12:42:39 GMT -5
"We can't afford it" seems like a pretty hollow rationale when you have babies being burned to death as a result of the lack of oversight and accountability. I read that article over the weekend. I cannot imagine the guilt and anguish the parents of those kids feel. Several expressed their reluctance to leave their kids there, but felt they had no other choice - they had to get to work, and were either waitlisted at or couldn't afford other places. I might gripe at the cost of daycare, but at least I have the financial ability to pay for it, and - worst case scenario - DH could quit his job to SAHP. Not everyone is that lucky, and it's not just because they didn't make good choices. And I'd rather pay to subsidize daycare than pay to subsidize someone to stay at home with their kids. Realistically, many low-income single parents don't have many other options. Subsidizing daycare and allowing someone to earn a living while knowing their child is being kept safe seems better (and cheaper) than paying to support the entire family because mom can't afford to go to work. but that would be doing something to actually alleviate the problem instead of slapping a dirty band-aid on it, and we can't have that!
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 22, 2013 12:43:18 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that kind of thing happens in SAHP homes all the time. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 12:44:55 GMT -5
Mid is a socialist who will cause the downfall of american civilization. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) I agree with you by the way. I read the book Mommy Wars and I thik the author does a good job of discussing daycare in this country and how the whole "FREE MARKET!" thing got started and why. And advantages/disadvantages to both approaches.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 12:45:32 GMT -5
France and Germany have top personal income tax rates of 45% compared to 35% for the US.
In addition they have a top VAT rate of 19% (lower on some goods like groceries "only" 9%) on all purchases. In the US I believe the highest sales tax rate is 13.725%?
There is no comparison between those countries and the US from a sheer tax base perspective.
Add in demographics (does either country border a third world country where millions of people unable to support themselves in their native land sneak in to steal services from legitimate taxpayers?), and the attempt at comparisons get even further apart.
Finally, for every single mom there is a single dad who should be supporting the fruits of his labors.
I have no interest whatsoever in seeing my effective tax rate increase by 15-20% to keep throwing more money at people who have kids without the ability to properly care for them. I take care of my child, and expect other parents to do the same for theirs.
As far as the conditions of the daycare, as a parent I visited prospective sites for DD several times (without advance notice). If I didn't like what I saw I would not put her in there.
I can't link to the article but suspect the parents of the children did not perform enought due diligence. In my state daycare is licensed and inspected several times each year. In addition, we already have the same quality daycare available to low income earners (the state will subsidize on a sliding scale all but $25 per week based on income) as well as head start with paid bussing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 12:50:04 GMT -5
since you make decent money, you also have the luxury of choice. Not everyone does. And you can say "then don't have kids" all you want, but the kids already exist.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Apr 22, 2013 12:50:33 GMT -5
...ahem, we still can't afford it...
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 22, 2013 12:55:04 GMT -5
A quick google search showed a lot of states subsidize daycare for the poor that are working and/or going to school. Maybe all, I couldn't easily find a site that summarized it all. I wonder how well those programs work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 12:56:40 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that kind of thing happens in SAHP homes all the time. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) one of the main reasons DS goes to DC 2x/week is so that he can play and learn. Staying home with me or my MIL would have him being inside and watching TV more than he should (I tend to focus on cleaning/food prep when I'm home, so he's more or less entertaining himself). If I didn't have to worry about cleaning up after his meals/destruction/poop/pee, cooking our meals, doing laundry,etc., I'd have a lot more energy to play with him and teach him stuff.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 22, 2013 12:56:50 GMT -5
::Iowa tightly regulates daycares, according to the web site Iowa has some of the tighest laws in the country. Nebraska is similar to Iowa for facilites but differs when it comes to home daycare. It's amazing how fast things change with a simple 15 minute drive across the river.::
Iowa can't be that tightly regulated, I have worked at an Iowa daycare. Ok, they really are tightly regulated, it was a lot to get through before I could work there, and once I got there, a billion different regulations adn things that needed to be followed.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 22, 2013 12:58:35 GMT -5
And if they don't? What do you do? Throw them in jail? Force them to work and then garnish their paychecks? (That's illegal, BTW).
In a perfect world both parents would take full responsibility for the children they created - but we don't live in a perfect world.
The women featured in the article were both in situations in which they needed to report to work that day or would lose their jobs. Both expressed reticence at leaving their kids there, but thought it would be OK.
Should they have said, "No, this daycare isn't good enough," and essentially quit their jobs? I suspect if they had, they'd be blasted for being "too good" to take advantage of cheap daycare and for "choosing to stay at home" rather than work. (I'm sure both would have chosen that a million times over losing their children.)
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 22, 2013 12:59:20 GMT -5
I don't know much about daycare. I don't have a kid so I don't really have a dog in the fight.
My understanding was that most states regulated daycares pretty strictly. And regardless, as always it's up to the parents to do due dilligence. However, given the realities of daycare, the costs and things like waiting lists, sometimes people don't have a choice.
I don't agree with the idea of subsidizing daycare. But I'm fine with strict regulations and inspections.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 22, 2013 13:00:45 GMT -5
...ahem, we still can't afford it... What can't we afford? Even if you don't want to go so far as subsidizing daycare for the low-income, I don't see why increased oversight and regulation shouldn't be on the table. Heck, in another thread it was argued that the federal government should implement a program to screen people who requested wheelchairs at airports to ensure they weren't taking advantage of the program. I'm not sure what makes that a worthy expense and the welfare of our country's children unworthy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:02:25 GMT -5
I don't know much about daycare. I don't have a kid so I don't really have a dog in the fight. if able-bodied people can get up in arms about wheelchair access, then you can get up in arms about childcare.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 13:05:29 GMT -5
Iowa can't be that tightly regulated, I have worked at an Iowa daycare.
Mind giving me the name so I can cross that one off my list. But I'm fine with strict regulations and inspections.
The problem is this is left to the state. What doesn't fly in Iowa might be overlooked in Nebraska for instance. Not every state regulates daycare the same way. There is no minimum standard. And I know the argument is going to be "move to a state with tighter rules before you even think about having kids".
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 22, 2013 13:08:39 GMT -5
And I know the argument is going to be "move to a state with tighter rules before you even think about having kids". I think the real answer is that if you have money (and not extreme wealth money - just not butt-poverty) then do your research and make the best decision, even if it isn't the cheapest or most convenient. The problem is if you don't have enough money to have any good options.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:08:40 GMT -5
I thought you were supposed to have 3 years of living expenses saved, a six-figure salary job, and a spouse that would never ever leave you before you have kids?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 22, 2013 13:11:16 GMT -5
The thing I'm wondering is why daycare costs people so much money and yet the workers are so low paid. If you're getting 10-15k per kid, that's a lot of scratch. Where is all the money going?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:11:29 GMT -5
That guy that Will Smith played in that movie was homeless and had a job that he got paid no money and he put his kid in daycare and everything worked out fine.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 22, 2013 13:12:14 GMT -5
Well, I did. But we all know that isn't the reality for many people. We can talk about what individuals should do - or we can talk about how the world really works.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:14:32 GMT -5
The thing I'm wondering is why daycare costs people so much money and yet the workers are so low paid. If you're getting 10-15k per kid, that's a lot of scratch. Where is all the money going? overhead and profit
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 22, 2013 13:15:19 GMT -5
The thing I'm wondering is why daycare costs people so much money and yet the workers are so low paid. If you're getting 10-15k per kid, that's a lot of scratch. Where is all the money going? The kid to adult ratios are pretty restrictive. Plus you have to pay for the facility and, of course, liability insurance. I know I was only paying $500 per kid per month. The ratio for 2 year olds is 1:8 in my state. Sounds like they should have $48k per year, but think again.
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