The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 13:15:50 GMT -5
since you make decent money, you also have the luxury of choice. Not everyone does. And you can say "then don't have kids" all you want, but the kids already exist. My daughter attends daycare where 60%+ are state subsidized. Their parents were able to choose the same good quality daycare I chose. As I've stated before I am friends with someone who used to work there so I know how much schoolage children get in subsidies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:15:54 GMT -5
The thing I'm wondering is why daycare costs people so much money and yet the workers are so low paid. If you're getting 10-15k per kid, that's a lot of scratch. Where is all the money going? certifications, licensure, other overhead expenses.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:17:12 GMT -5
1:8 for 2-year-olds? Wow. I know it's higher than that in NJ. I know the minumum for infants is something like 1:3.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 13:18:48 GMT -5
Where is all the money going
Overhead probably. If your licensed you need to maintain that and it costs money.
Mine just had to buy cribs yet again because the inspector told them they can't use that brand cribs since the drop-side ones are recalled. Even though they did not purchase the drop-sided version. She had to replace them to keep her license.
Not exactly cheap to replace all your cribs, at once no less.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 22, 2013 13:26:51 GMT -5
1:8 for 2-year-olds? Wow. I know it's higher than that in NJ. I know the minumum for infants is something like 1:3. If I was in charge of eight 2yos I'd probably have half of them drinking out of the toilet at any given time. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yikes.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 13:29:18 GMT -5
1:3 for infants/toddlers here. Not sure about pre-school. Toddler is up to 3 years.
I am in charge of ONE 2 year old and I wouldn't be surprised if she's drank out of the toilet. I don't want to know. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/whistle.gif)
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 13:29:49 GMT -5
And if they don't? What do you do? Throw them in jail? Force them to work and then garnish their paychecks? (That's illegal, BTW). In a perfect world both parents would take full responsibility for the children they created - but we don't live in a perfect world. The women featured in the article were both in situations in which they needed to report to work that day or would lose their jobs. Both expressed reticence at leaving their kids there, but thought it would be OK. Should they have said, "No, this daycare isn't good enough," and essentially quit their jobs? I suspect if they had, they'd be blasted for being "too good" to take advantage of cheap daycare and for "choosing to stay at home" rather than work. (I'm sure both would have chosen that a million times over losing their children.) Because there are kids involved everyone wants to jump on the "lets fix it bandwagon". Would YOU leave your kids somewhere when you were not comfortable? Would YOU not have any plan in place and be forced to make a hasty decision about the safety your child? As had been documented many times, it's a lack of long term vision that constantly creates short term crises for many people. So everyone else who does plan is supposed to keep supporting those who don't even make the attempt.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 22, 2013 13:31:43 GMT -5
The thing I'm wondering is why daycare costs people so much money and yet the workers are so low paid. If you're getting 10-15k per kid, that's a lot of scratch. Where is all the money going? certifications, licensure, other overhead expenses. Interesting. I thought the certifications and licensures were supposed to make daycares safe? And from the article I thought daycares were not safe? So is the issue not that certifications and licensing is not in place, but it's not effective? And it seems kind of circular to complain that costs are too high for the average family then turn around and say we need more licensure and certifications, which are the driving force behind costs. But that's the American way. Wanting the best but getting someone else to pay for it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:34:51 GMT -5
And if they don't? What do you do? Throw them in jail? Force them to work and then garnish their paychecks? (That's illegal, BTW). In a perfect world both parents would take full responsibility for the children they created - but we don't live in a perfect world. The women featured in the article were both in situations in which they needed to report to work that day or would lose their jobs. Both expressed reticence at leaving their kids there, but thought it would be OK. Should they have said, "No, this daycare isn't good enough," and essentially quit their jobs? I suspect if they had, they'd be blasted for being "too good" to take advantage of cheap daycare and for "choosing to stay at home" rather than work. (I'm sure both would have chosen that a million times over losing their children.) Because there are kids involved everyone wants to jump on the "lets fix it bandwagon". Would YOU leave your kids somewhere when you were not comfortable? Would YOU not have any plan in place and be forced to make a hasty decision about the safety your child? As had been documented many times, it's a lack of long term vision that constantly creates short term crises for many people. So everyone else who does plan is supposed to keep supporting those who don't even make the attempt. so we should punish the kids because their parents failed to plan properly? We are going to be taken care of by the nation's children, so saying "oh, your parents didn't plan well? Tough shit!" is in essence failing to plan properly for our collective futures, is it not?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:36:54 GMT -5
And it seems kind of circular to complain that costs are too high for the average family then turn around and say we need more licensure and certifications, which are the driving force behind costs. yes it does, but how else are we to ensure that the establishments are safe enough?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 22, 2013 13:39:01 GMT -5
The article focused not on daycare centers, but on in-home providers. In many states, even licensed in-home providers aren't nearly as regulated as centers.
You can always choose to be unlicensed and operate under the radar - in which case you can pretty much do whatever you want. And therein lies the problem for the low-income parents - these unlicensed providers are almost always cheaper since they aren't subject to regulations. And since they're not subject to caregiver/child ratios, they can always fit another kid in - often at the expense of providing good care. If you're up against a wall and have a choice between being waitlisted at a center where you might pay $300/week vs. getting your kid in immediately at an unlicensed IHP for $100/week, most people would choose the latter.
(I think the woman in the article was 22yo, in charge of 7 kids ranging from infant to age 5. That would never have flown at a licensed center, even in the laxest state.)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 13:40:23 GMT -5
thought the certifications and licensures were supposed to make daycares safe? And from the article I thought daycares were not safe?
Once again, not every state has the same regulations. Some are tighter, some are more lax. Regulations can vary within the state too depending on if it is a home daycare vs facility/center.
Home daycare laws are so convoluted in Nebraska I went cross-eyed trying to read them. There are dozens of exceptions that have their own rulebook to play by. I can't take the laws for daycare centers and apply them to home daycares.
That doesn't cover all the un-licensed daycares running around either. In Nebraska for example you can call yourself a daycare but don't have to be licensed as long as you keep it to 4 kids or less (not sure if that counts your own kids).
Iowa does not allow that.
It would be nice to have a minimum across the board standard for everyone so it's the same no matter what state I live in.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 22, 2013 13:53:34 GMT -5
1:8 for 2-year-olds? Wow. I know it's higher than that in NJ. I know the minumum for infants is something like 1:3. daycare.com/newjersey/You have a 1:7 ratio for 18 months old. My state isn't known for its overprotective laws. However, I was told that there is a new requirement that every child has to have milk for every snack period (or lunch period.) Even if they are lactose intolerant, and the daycare will be fined if they come for inspection and there is not a milk container in every kid's hand. What the? ? ? That is dumb. I'm sure it is because some do-gooder thought they could force bad quality care facilities to get better by requiring milk, but I'm not sure that is the most protective thing they could do for our kids.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 22, 2013 13:54:15 GMT -5
We are going the unlicensed home daycare route for DD. She's with MIL on some days, and at our house with a babysitter on others. Once the new LO comes they will both be going to our friend's house everyday. But she will only have our two and her son (same age as DD).
My sister used to live next door to the super cheap unlicensed daycare. The lady took $25/day cash for infants, $20 for toddlers, and $10 for school-aged kids. There were a couple of times my sis took her son over there because she would have been fired for calling in or coming in late to work. Not only are the low income people limited in choices for daycare, but most of them are in jobs that are anything but flexible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 13:55:39 GMT -5
I put my kids in the hands of the Jews. I feel very comfortable about that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 13:56:55 GMT -5
I'm sure it is because some do-gooder thought they could force bad quality care facilities to get better by requiring milk, but I'm not sure that is the most protective thing they could do for our kids.
Do they force the kids to drink 1% milk? If they do you should be lobbying for the right to whole milk. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 22, 2013 13:59:13 GMT -5
I think it is either skim or 1%. But I just looked it up and there are only 2 states that have that requirement. So, I am 99% sure that regulation came in through the Dairymen's Association's lobbyist, and doesn't have much to do with actual health requirements.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 22, 2013 14:02:31 GMT -5
1:3 for infants/toddlers here. Not sure about pre-school. Toddler is up to 3 years.
I am in charge of ONE 2 year old and I wouldn't be surprised if she's drank out of the toilet. I don't want to know. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/whistle.gif) This was a 4 yo room. Given my kids' tendency to forget to flush and my 1 yo's desire to play with what ever is floating in the toilet, I'm still calling yuck on drinking out of a toilet, or at least being aware of when a child is in the bathroom. At least we can train our older kids to keep the bathrooms doors closed at home. (And, surprisingly they are very good at it. But, we've also let them know that babies can drown in very little water..and it's all it took.) At centers, there is no door to close.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 14:06:36 GMT -5
At centers, there is no door to close.
Really? Weird, never thought about that before. Our center has doors on all the bathrooms. I assumed they all did.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Apr 22, 2013 14:11:11 GMT -5
If we're going to require all home daycare providers to be licensed and follow the rules, why don't we license SAHM's? I'm sure that there's some kids out there who live in horrible conditions and are being watched over by mom.
Honestly - I think it's a little sensational. Yes, there are bad daycare providers. Is it all of them? No. And daycare is mostly regulated by states, not the federal government. So I'm not sure if the article wants us to believe that regulation is more effective at the federal level?
I had DS#1 in both a center and in-home DCP situation. Both had their pros and cons.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 14:12:04 GMT -5
At centers, there is no door to close.
Really? Weird, never thought about that before. Our center has doors on all the bathrooms. I assumed they all did. My daughter's has curtains.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 22, 2013 14:13:17 GMT -5
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) ? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE, THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 22, 2013 14:35:41 GMT -5
Because there are kids involved everyone wants to jump on the "lets fix it bandwagon". Would YOU leave your kids somewhere when you were not comfortable? Would YOU not have any plan in place and be forced to make a hasty decision about the safety your child? As had been documented many times, it's a lack of long term vision that constantly creates short term crises for many people. So everyone else who does plan is supposed to keep supporting those who don't even make the attempt. so we should punish the kids because their parents failed to plan properly? We are going to be taken care of by the nation's children, so saying "oh, your parents didn't plan well? Tough shit!" is in essence failing to plan properly for our collective futures, is it not? There are programs out there (at least in IL) to ensure safety and subsidize costs. From what was stated by other posters about the article the parents in question did not check out the places throughly before leaving their children there. Apparently those programs exist in TX as well: www.dfps.state.tx.us/documents/Child_Care/Child_Care_Standards_and_Regulations/746_Centers.pdfwww.nccp.org/profiles/TX_profile_14.htmlSo there is a plan for the collective future. Does it cover EVERY contingency? Unfortunately not. However well intentioned one may be, you will never be able to fix all of the world's problems. At some point the parents will have to take some owhership. In some cases the parents will fail their children. Unless we want a total police state, at some point the freedom our society expects will mean some children will be failed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 14:51:27 GMT -5
I thought the certifications and licensures were supposed to make daycares safe? And from the article I thought daycares were not safe? So is the issue not that certifications and licensing is not in place, but it's not effective? Yep, the answer is always more regulation and more tax money. Heck, in Germany, they now have a subsidy paid to SAH parents because it's only fair since the other parents are getting state-subsidized daycare. Where will it end? DS had off-the-radar daycare providers, one till he started kindergarten and the other in grade school when his schedule changed and the initial one wasn't in a position to pick him up at school. Both are wonderful women and I'm still on FB with them and their adult children. I don't trust the state to screen daycare providers- I'm going to use my own brain. It's my money, my kid.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 22, 2013 14:58:12 GMT -5
I guess I'm just confused. The problems outlined in the article are.
1. Daycare is to expensive. 2. The existing framework of licensure and certifications is insufficient to promote an acceptable level of safety. 3. Daycare is expensive based on the current framework of certifications and licensure. The money is certainly not going to the workers, that's for sure.
So I fail to see how more regulations and more certifications and more licensure will reduce costs for those who can't afford it. And if the current systems are ineffective, then why pile on more? Shouldn't we be looking at other solutions to the problem than what's already been tried?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 22, 2013 15:00:37 GMT -5
I guess I'm just confused. The problems outlined in the article are.
1. Daycare is to expensive. 2. The existing framework of licensure and certifications is insufficient to promote an acceptable level of safety. 3. Daycare is expensive based on the current framework of certifications and licensure. The money is certainly not going to the workers, that's for sure.
So I fail to see how more regulations and more certifications and more licensure will reduce costs for those who can't afford it. And if the current systems are ineffective, then why pile on more? Shouldn't we be looking at other solutions to the problem than what's already been tried?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 15:03:57 GMT -5
I guess I'm just confused. The problems outlined in the article are. 1. Daycare is to expensive. 2. The existing framework of licensure and certifications is insufficient to promote an acceptable level of safety. 3. Daycare is expensive based on the current framework of certifications and licensure. The money is certainly not going to the workers, that's for sure. So I fail to see how more regulations and more certifications and more licensure will reduce costs for those who can't afford it. And if the current systems are ineffective, then why pile on more? Shouldn't we be looking at other solutions to the problem than what's already been tried? IMHO, licensing and certifications are not expensive. We are probably talking hundreds of dollars a year,
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2013 15:08:45 GMT -5
The article seems to be trying to connect too many issues together and find a catch-all solution. Which isn't going to work. It's rarely that simple.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 22, 2013 15:27:15 GMT -5
I didn't read the article (so flog me now). But the reality is there are thousands of daycares in the US, if not hundreds of thousands. There are some bad apples out there. Yes the stories are horrifying, but does that really paint an accurate picture of daycare problems in the US? I doubt it, but what do I know? I've never looked at daycares. I did tour a preschool on Friday, but I was looking at it more like looking at school instead of daycare.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 22, 2013 15:33:43 GMT -5
I think the problems depicted are accurate (unless the journalists are lying). Are they representative? Probably not.
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