midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 19, 2013 11:22:27 GMT -5
Another example - I played the flute in jr high band, and for 2 years I was last chair. I stuck with it only because most of my friends were in band so at least we could pass notes. My dad told me he'd pay me $50 if I stuck with it through my freshman year. Then my HS band teacher, who was an amazing guy, saw some potential and really encouraged me - and I ended up playing first chair for the next three years. But without some level of bribing, and then encouragement, I would've dropped band like a hot potato and never looked back. And how different would your life be now if you had dropped the flute after the first 6 months? Band took up a lot of time, it probably helped me avoid following most of my jr high friends into becoming burnouts. But who really knows? At any rate, it was something I enjoyed - eventually - but would have never experienced if I hadn't been strongly encouraged to stick with it. DH quit band after junior high and never went to college, so there ya go. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 11:22:46 GMT -5
I never had the least interest in playing any musical instrument. I enjoyed chorus though.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 19, 2013 11:28:47 GMT -5
Which is why I could never unschool, I just don't have the faith that everything will turn out "okay" in the long run. But, doesn't it though?..I guess I'll turn it into a general life belief. Having control over our kids beyond infancy is an illusion. We can't control our kids, we can't control our spouses, coworkers, bosses, etc. No matter what choices other people make that may influence my life, my life is still going to go on. Other people's lives will go on. The sun is still going to rise tomorrow, and every likely every other day for the of my life. Things will be OK. But I also believe people have a lifetime to grow and change. At 38, I'm not the person I was when I was 23 or even 25. I don't believe my life should be measured simply by one or two years out of hopefully 80 or 90.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 11:36:05 GMT -5
I was a difficult child who took a lot of coaxing to get through my early life. I have often said that I would have been perfectly happy being a stripper instead of a college student. Boy, am I glad my parents put certain expectations on me. Because my stripper days would be long over, and I'm not sure I would have been one of those good strippers that made a lot of money - plus I would have pissed it all away.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 11:40:57 GMT -5
I recognize I can't control everyone but I'll be darned if I'm just going to sit back and say "Well hopefully at 38 she'll have changed" either. DH f-ed up his 20's and while he's made most of it up I see how much of a toll it takes on him to be at 40 where (in his mind) he should have been in his 20's. I disagree with him but job/career wise I understand his frustration. While to an extent it's "never too late" he's lost a lot of time/earning potential too. He's somewhat resentful of his parents too for being so hands off. As a kid/teen it was awesome but 20/20 hindsight he recognizes he could have done with more structure in his life. Nobody can make my brother do anything as an adult but at least he was ball busted enough as a minor that he has a HS diploma. It's better than nothing at all and praying he'll wake up in his 30's. I believe it's my job as a parent to arm my kid with the tools she needs to function in life. I can't make her use them but I don't need to let her play video games all and trust that eventually she'll grow up either. I hope to strike a balance between both but I'm not going to let my minor child be completely in control of the ship. Man, the more time I spend on here the more I realize I'm a lot more old school/strict than I thought I was. I'm turning into my dad, lord help me. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Apr 19, 2013 12:00:35 GMT -5
I agree, Drama. A child, not even a teenager, has the capacity to understand the consequences that could come in their adult life by not learning and applying themselves in the now. I think children should be given age-appropriate choices and be able to reap the rewards or suffer the consequences of those. But for now, with things like education, DH and I make the choices we think is in their best interest.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:05:26 GMT -5
Some thoughts. Ive known more than one 'drop out' who became unmotivated because of the school system. It doesn't sound like Dramas brother was ll that well served by the schooling he had? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) Who's to say if he hadn't been encouraged to blow glass early he wouldn't have his own shop? Or if he'd been encouraged to advocate for legal marijuanna he wouldn't have gone into politics? Or any of the thousands of potential variations? I don't see how it would have ended up much worse? final thought (this post ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) ) i am always kind of amazed at the seeming disconnect between, how to put this, .... Parents who seem all, well they must sleep in their own bed, they must learn these basic skills, etc. by this age, or they will not grow up to be productive, employed citizens.... Coupled with the desire to continue to dictate what kids will do, when, how, protect, etc... Until they are 18...? Home/unschool doesn't mean coddle. Just as much as you don't push a kid to do something because you think at 9 they should be doing it, you also don't stop a 9 year old from doing what you don't think they can handle. My kids have good work ethics. They have been mowing lawns since about 10.... They can cook for themselves. There are several times I can think of on here, as protective as I can be, where I see parents talk about their older kids and wonder how, with so much dictated and arranged, they will become independent... ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) Just some thoughts...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 12:15:10 GMT -5
Who's to say if he hadn't been encouraged to blow glass early he wouldn't have his own shop
Considering he came up with this idea while high I'm not entirely sure this was a "dream" he had but instead was more a stream of conciousness like That 70's Show. Also not entirely sure I'd want to encourage whatever my kid thinks up while high.
And by the way my parents did encourage him A LOT. He wanted to be a fireman since he was 3 and my parents did everything in their power to support/encourage it. He decided one day out of the blue he didn't want to do it anymore
My mom has also busted her ass researching every random ass dream he's come up with since he graduated. They've helped put him in contact with other people in whatever pipe dream he's ad with the exception of pot farming and bong blowing.
But hey if you want to think that the whole reason my brother is a douche and can't hold a job because he "doesn't like to be told what to do" is because my parents somehow didn't nuture him enough or care to do unschooling knock yourself out.
Who is to say my brother wouldn't be worse off if they had left him to his own devices?
I'm his polar opposite I'm doing what I've wanted to do since I was five. I got myself organized and motivated and busted my butt to get here. Of course my parents support/encouragement helped but they can't make me do what I needed to do to get here. I probably would have been just fine left to my own devices because I already had the internal motivation to begin with.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:20:40 GMT -5
Did I blame your parents? I said why are you so sure, given the less than stellar outcomes of schooling he did have, that another way wouldn't have been just as effective ? If not possibly more so. Ie. who is to say he wouldn't be better off? you are holding up this failure of the traditional system, as the reason why we NEED the traditional system... ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) Im sorry you can't seem to understand what I'm saying. It isn't about glass blowing per say. Did he volunteer as firefighter before he dropped the idea? Was there an abrupt personality change?
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 19, 2013 12:27:39 GMT -5
An unschooled would not make them learn it if they had no interest in learning it.
Wow, really? That, IMO, sounds like you're going to shortchange your kid. It'd be a little late now for me to take calculus. There is no way I'd be able to have a career in science if I didn't "suck it up buttercup" and learn stuff I didn't like. The unschooling philosophy would say that when you decide you want a career in science and discover that you need calculus, that will be your motivation to want to learn calculus. And, if you are serious about your desire to have a career in science, then learning calculus is exactly what you will do.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 19, 2013 12:32:52 GMT -5
Without a clone/control, it's impossible to say which system would've done DQ's brother better. Some people simply aren't externally OR internally motivated. Not sure what you do in that situation.
But the message you seem to be sending is that the traditional system is almost always bad for all kids, and unschooling/homeschooling is always good for all kids. I don't think it's that simplistic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:35:42 GMT -5
Where have I said that?
I have specifically not said that several times.
What I'm saying is how can you use a failure of one system to prove/proclaim another system a failure?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 12:38:23 GMT -5
d he volunteer as firefighter before he dropped the idea?
Yeah he did. He was in some sort of junior fire fight training program in high school that our local departments actually select quite a few candidates from (once they get their formal certifications and stuff).
We have no clue why he stopped, he just announced he didn't want to do it anymore.
I have no clue if he would have been better off we can't go back in time. My point is he might have been WORSE off if they had unschooled him rather than busting his behind to stick with school.
Structured homeschooling might have worked, but he's not the type of kid who ever got up to something good when left to his own devices. Not saying he was a bad kid, he wasn't, but left unsupervised/structured he didn't tend to go with the wholesome learn something new approach.
I think at least everyone can take some comfort in the fact he at least graduated high school. If I had my brother for a kid no f-ing way I would just leave him to his own devices and hope that it'll all work out in the end he'll learn what he needs to learn in his own time.
My brother needed structure and honestly probably still does. I wish he had been accepted into the Air Force because the discipline needed would probably have been a good thing for him.
It's being argued every kid has the interal drive/motivation to succeed without any type of structure to operate in. You just naturally go with the flow.
I thik that would work great if you have yourself a naturally motivated driven kid.
It's NOT going to work if you don't. You can't make someone get motivated anymore than you can force someone to learn in public school.
And yes I get natural consequences but the natural consequences of my brother being a sloth are ones that impact everyone else around him. Not learning one particular thing like calculs isn't a huge deal, you'll survive.
Not learning much of anything because you're too busy smoking pot and playing WoW for however long it takes to pull your head out of your butt is a HUGE deal and can have very long reaching consequences.
My parents at least armed my brother with an HS diploma. They can't make him use it, but he's ahead of the curve compared to someone without it or its eqivualent.
I'm NOT taking the chance that my child will be motivated to learn everything she will need to know on her own. As long as she's my minor child I will enforce her education. What she does as an adult is her decision but while I'm in change I'm making the decisions.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 12:40:19 GMT -5
The difference here is that oped believes that every human has the ability to succeed, give the right circumstances. And Drama's stance is that her brother would be a loser no matter what. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:41:50 GMT -5
Bottom line, You cannot say unschooling would have failed him, because he was not unschooled.
Was there a personality change when he dropped the firefighter thing? I know you said he wasn't always 'that way'.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 19, 2013 12:44:30 GMT -5
I don't suppose you can.
But by that same measure, any of us who went to public schools and are now gainfully employed and/or financially independent should be able to proclaim the public school system a success, right?
(Again - I don't think it's that simple.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:44:44 GMT -5
I'm not going back to read 9 pages, but you repeatedly list the various failures of the public school system - yet I've never seen you state that there are any disadvantages at all to the homeschooling/unschooling philosophies. It's not a huge leap. I suggest you do go back and re- read. I have said repeatedly I am not anti public school, I do not think homeschooling is always the right choice, and I don't choose personally to unschool. I have admitted there are less than ideal homeschooling situations, like all schooling situations. And that what I ask myself is if the situation is any LESS ideal than another way would be... i don't know who you are reading?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 19, 2013 12:45:28 GMT -5
Do you really think that people are arguing that unschooling will work for every kid? I doubt there is one parenting thing that works on every kids. I certainly can't think of one. I think that if some is saying that, they don't have their eyes open.
I think we get it isn't for your family. It isn't something we are considering either, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize that there are situations that it is the best option.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 12:49:22 GMT -5
How do unschooled kids get into college? To my knowledge a person has to have completed certain prerequisites to get into college. If some kid has no interest in math then he/she is not going to meet the qualifications to get accepted. Am I wrong ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 12:50:26 GMT -5
Oped - I agree that you are good at staying reasonable during these conversations, but when we talked about my upcoming decisions about my children's high school situation, you push that I take over their schooling at least 9 times, when I very respectfully (and I am in awe of your skill as the administrator of your children's education) told you, 9 times, that I don't feel comfortable in that situation. So, you aren't quite as neutral as you think you are. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 12:51:11 GMT -5
How do unschooled kids get into college? To my knowledge a person has to have completed certain prerequisites to get into college. If some kid has no interest in math then he/she is not going to meet the qualifications to get accepted. Am I wrong ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) When they decide they want to go to college, then they suddenly become interested in learning all the pre-reqs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:51:36 GMT -5
Almost, if they want to get into a program that reqires math, they make the decision to learn the prerequisite math. Or they go into a field without a math requirement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:55:53 GMT -5
Oped - I agree that you are good at staying reasonable during these conversations, but when we talked about my upcoming decisions about my children's high school situation, you push that I take over their schooling at least 9 times, when I very respectfully (and I am in awe of your skill as the administrator of your children's education) told you, 9 times, that I don't feel comfortable in that situation. So, you aren't quite as neutral as you think you are. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) It is just because I have so much faith in you!! I know you can do it. (See why I don't get to be a real unschooler ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) ) I do agree I'm in recruit mode too often. I just want to make sure someone isn't missing something because they are selling themselves short. If you don't want to do something, if the choice isn't right or your family, I'm glad you don't ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) ... How are things working out on that front?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 12:56:02 GMT -5
And that what I ask myself is if the situation is any LESS ideal than another way would be...
I guess that's what I've been arguing while admittedly having a hell of a hard time wrapping my head around unschooling.
I don't know what the ideal situation would have been for my brother in all odds there isn't one. If you're dealing with someone who isn't internally motivated there isn't a whole lot you can do either way.
Unschooled he'd probably sit around and smoke pot all day, but he does that now.
At least in this universe he does have an HS diploma. Might not have been the best way to go about it but when you yourself have a totally different persoanlity than your kids (both my parents are very highly motivated, solid work ethic etc) you do the best you can.
I've just been wondering how you handle a kid who doesn't motivate himself in an unschool environment. Even if you don't motivate yourself in public school you still have to jump thru the hoops and will eventually graduate. You might not beat a Chinese/Indian student but you do have the piece of paper that says I know how to jump thru hoops.
Which I'll agree is a problem but our system isn't designed to only cull the best/brightest. It's designed to give everyone an opportunity at a basic education. Which I'd argue is exactly what it did for my brother. Since he has the piece of paper he's on equal footing as far as everyone else who has it.
The rest obviously has to come from himself and that's where he's lacking. I cannot think of how unschooling could change a non-motivated person into a motivated one and since there's no minimum bar to reach for in that scenario, what do you do?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 12:59:06 GMT -5
Oped - I agree that you are good at staying reasonable during these conversations, but when we talked about my upcoming decisions about my children's high school situation, you push that I take over their schooling at least 9 times, when I very respectfully (and I am in awe of your skill as the administrator of your children's education) told you, 9 times, that I don't feel comfortable in that situation. So, you aren't quite as neutral as you think you are. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) It is just because I have so much faith in you!! I know you can do it. LOL - Thanks! See. Exactly what I said before - you believe that everyone has potential. I've given up on that notion. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 19, 2013 13:38:15 GMT -5
Oped and wrongside-what will your kids put down for hs diploma when filling out job applications?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 13:44:18 GMT -5
My kids probably won't have one. There are diploma programs in PA for homeschoolers, but I don't see the worth, personally. I expect my kids will at least have an AS before they are 'grown up job' hunting.
as far as high school attended, they would say homeschooled.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 19, 2013 14:31:44 GMT -5
Thank you both!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 9:09:09 GMT -5
Now 11 year old daughter on the other hand. Sigh. Love her, but she's an emotional wreck once a week, and can we spell manipulation... in other words, a normal pre-teen girl.... ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) I wouldn't wish a pre-teen girl on my worst enemy. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yikes.png)
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2013 10:06:11 GMT -5
Who is burned out? Who isn't "being a kid?" My kids (6&8) like doing math. They specifically asked me to make up a sheet of 50 2-digit subtraction problems to work on in the car the other day. I know lots of kids who love to read. Or spell. Or go on and on and on about dinosaurs or earthquakes. Learning is fun (or at least is should be). What I don't get about unschooling advocates is that their philosophy seems to be based on the concept that learning is hard/stressful/boring and kids shouldn't be subjected to it. And yet they are the ones who propose being teachers! If you think learning is hard/stressful/boring you shouldn't be a teacher. If there are so many kids out there that are getting it and loving it, why are so many students and schools failing? There are more high school dropouts now than ever before. Lone, the schools can't just graduate people like they used to. There is a HS proficiency test that the students have to pass to graduate. If they don't pass they don't graduate period. Most kids who can't graduate just drop out. When I was younger you could have a good kid who just didn't get the work. The teachers could keep passing them and eventually they would graduate even though they didn't know the alegabra or other courses that they should have had to learn to graduate. At about 19 they have to go to the night school if they want to continue and finish. Most just don't and drop out. DH's father went to HS in the 50's. He was pushed through without being able to read. The school actually told him that they did him a favor. Their thought was, his dad was a mechanic so he would be one also. He didn't need to learn to read or write well. But since he was from a "good family" they wanted to do him the favor of passing him even though he couldn't read and have him graduate HS. In their minds they were being nice by graduating him and not forcing him to learn things they didn't think he would ever need.
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