Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2013 11:05:45 GMT -5
in other words, a normal pre-teen girl.... ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) I wouldn't wish a pre-teen girl on my worst enemy. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yikes.png) Even my 6yo has days where I wonder if she's PMSing. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif)
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2013 11:34:44 GMT -5
Who is burned out? Who isn't "being a kid?" My kids (6&8) like doing math. They specifically asked me to make up a sheet of 50 2-digit subtraction problems to work on in the car the other day. I know lots of kids who love to read. Or spell. Or go on and on and on about dinosaurs or earthquakes. Learning is fun (or at least is should be). What I don't get about unschooling advocates is that their philosophy seems to be based on the concept that learning is hard/stressful/boring and kids shouldn't be subjected to it. And yet they are the ones who propose being teachers! If you think learning is hard/stressful/boring you shouldn't be a teacher. If there are so many kids out there that are getting it and loving it, why are so many students and schools failing? There are more high school dropouts now than ever before. I think you question is a good one and I don't know all the answers. My first guess, though, would be that kids' home lives are not supportive. Poverty, or even middle class families where both parents work 50hrs/wk and can't give time to their kids would be huge drains. Then of course there are the parents who just don't give a damn. Based on the behaviors I see in the classroom, I think things like discipline, respect, and grit are not taught at home. I don't care what the subject is: reading, math, hitting a ball, or knitting a scarf...if it is difficult for a kid to get it then you spend extra time working with them on it until they figure it out. But I get the sense (and I live in a nicer area with top schools) that a lot of kids don't get support at home. Heck, I assign spelling words for the kids every Friday for the next Friday's test and I'd say at least 1/4 of the time the list never leaves their folder (the parents don't even go through the kids' backpack). I don't excuse the schools - there are a ton of poorly run schools out there. I think we all can agree on that. Unschoolers seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Or maybe they have some mysterious success/fulfillment that I don't have. I think life is filled with things I have to do when I don't feel like it: cooking, cleaning, work, etc. If I didn't make my kids do things like clean their room, they wouldn't. Yeah, I guess I could wait until the sloth got so bad they were motivated, but it would take forever...and in my son's case I don't know if he'd ever clean his room. So yeah, I make him do it and IMO it isn't any more soul crushing than when I make myself get off my ass and start a load of laundry I don't feel like doing. But then, maybe I am ruined by public schooling and don't have that wonderful internal motivation unschoolers seem to have. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 11:51:37 GMT -5
Formerly SK, I didn't realize you were a teacher. I thought you were a SAHM for some reason...
Lone, do you have a source to back up that more kids are dropping out now than ever before? My grandfather's generation had many drop out in 8th grade to work the farm. Most of my mother's brothers dropped out of school (she had 9 brothers).
Beach, I am not sure that all states require students to pass a test to graduate. I think they should, but I don't think all have that requirement. I know my DSD did not have to take a test to graduate from her HS in Michigan.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:12:04 GMT -5
Again though, like my cleaning example, I don't have a motivation to clean for the joy of cleaning, but I do have motivation to not die from botulism, not react to dust, etc.... So I am internally motivated to clean because it is the path by which I achieve my desires...
This idea is part of a larger viewpoint... I don't know if maybe I'm not explaining it correctly, or if its just hard to understand if you don't reaon that way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:13:40 GMT -5
If he'd never do it on his own, what will make him when he leaves home?
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2013 12:14:07 GMT -5
Formerly SK, I didn't realize you were a teacher. I thought you were a SAHM for some reason... Lone, do you have a source to back up that more kids are dropping out now than ever before? My grandfather's generation had many drop out in 8th grade to work the farm. Most of my mother's brothers dropped out of school (she had 9 brothers). Beach, I am not sure that all states require students to pass a test to graduate. I think they should, but I don't think all have that requirement. I know my DSD did not have to take a test to graduate from her HS in Michigan. I'm a SAHM. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) I also volunteer 3 mornings a week in my kids' classrooms so I've gotten pretty familiar with their classmates and the classroom dynamics.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:17:59 GMT -5
Ah! I thought I had missed some big announcement about you going back to work! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2013 12:25:56 GMT -5
Again though, like my cleaning example, I don't have a motivation to clean for the joy of cleaning, but I do have motivation to not die from botulism, not react to dust, etc.... So I am internally motivated to clean because it is the path by which I achieve my desires... This idea is part of a larger viewpoint... I don't know if maybe I'm not explaining it correctly, or if its just hard to understand if you don't reaon that way. I agree, I think it comes down to a difference in larger viewpoints. I think there are some people who view children more angelic-ish, and some who view them more like mini-humans. I tend to view them towards the latter. I can totally see where my kids try to lie, manipulate, be lazy, do half-assed work, etc. If given the choice between eating carrots or eating cupcakes, they'll chose cupcakes 99% of the time. Since I'm an adult and better understand the consequences of that, I don't let them have those choices. Waiting until they are 50lbs overweight and unable to run at PE for them to get the motivation to eat carrots is a huge risk IMO. Maybe that is the viewpoint difference: I feel I know more than my kids and that I need to guide them in the direction I think is best. Unschoolers seem to view the kids on a more even playing field. But, maybe I'm not explaining myself very well, either. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:35:59 GMT -5
I have considered homeschooling my kids next year because I am not happy with their current education options. I have joined a homeschooling group and have done some research. I haven't made the decision to do it yet though because one of the Principals here really wants me to come in for an interview and possibly come work at the school. He actually practically chased me down the other day when I was leaving Parent/Teacher conferences to make sure I was still planning on filling out the application and coming in to talk. I told him I would. I am considering it because I am hoping to make a difference in not just my kids' education, but the education of other students as well. I am hoping by being on the inside I can help make changes.
I will still be part of the homeschool group because they have fabulous resources to help me keep my kids interested and challenged. I have met some wonderful women through the group and I really enjoy MOST of their philosophies on education. Some of the families do "unschool" and that is fine for their families. It works for THEM. It would not work for me because my kids are not motivated at all. I really have to push them to even get up out of bed. If I didn't, they would sleep until 3pm. I am not ok with my kids playing video games for 15 hours a day and sleeping the rest of the time. So I push them and I guide them. I do not believe that MY kids are at the stage in their life where I trust that they would just decide that they want to learn something that they need to learn to succeed in life. I don't care if they go to college or not, but I do expect that they will get some kind of training to become productive members of society and be able to support themselves. I just do not believe that MY kids are at the stage in their life that they would make the decisions that would lead them to that goal.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 20, 2013 12:35:59 GMT -5
FWIW, I have no doubt that there are fantastic unschoolers out there. I think the success of the philosophy is totally reliant on the quality of the parents, and excellent parents will make excellent unschoolers. I think, though, that excellent parents would also make excellent parents of kids in public schools. Children of excellent parents will do well in most any situation because their parents care enough to put in the time/effort to help their kids.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2013 12:36:21 GMT -5
Formerly SK, I didn't realize you were a teacher. I thought you were a SAHM for some reason... Lone, do you have a source to back up that more kids are dropping out now than ever before? My grandfather's generation had many drop out in 8th grade to work the farm. Most of my mother's brothers dropped out of school (she had 9 brothers). Beach, I am not sure that all states require students to pass a test to graduate. I think they should, but I don't think all have that requirement. I know my DSD did not have to take a test to graduate from her HS in Michigan. I thought the end of course tests and HS prof tests were instituted because of the NCLB laws put in place ten years ago. I don't know about all states but most did put in some form of tests to prove basic prof in HS. If the state didn't they could lose all fed money. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) The HSPA is the test in NJ that proves you know the min required for HS. But lots of states have other names for it. I want to say about half have a form of it. there are also a bunch of states that have end of course tests. NJ got so lucky we have both. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) So when you finish algebra say you have to pass a test on it that is set up by the state. The point was supposed to be so that what was being taught in Newark was substantially the same as what was being taught in Atlantic city or Randolph and all the other high schools. the end result is supposed to be that if the student doesnt pass the EOC test they have to take the class over regardless of grade. So if a teacher loves kid A but they really didn't deserve an A in the class it will be easy to see from the test. Of course you will get a few kids who just don't test well but it really hasn't been that many that I have heard. It was only a few kids last year that everyone felt they did know the material just tested badly so they had to take the test again. There are schools that are known as "drop out factories". ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/sad.png) The students seem to do okay and get decent grades. They don't have any evidence of being in trouble either. They just get to senior year and can't come close to passing the HSPA. Eventually they just drop out because they can't pass it. I know everyone is going to say teaching to the test is bad but I don't think so. As long as the test does accurately reflect what should have been taught in that class I am fine with teaching to the test. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 12:43:35 GMT -5
Actually, NCLB does not state that they have to pass a state test to graduate. It just states that they have to meet certain criteria to pass. Every state decides their own criteria.
States DO have to give state test throughout K-12 to show that the students are progressing and that the school is making AYP, but there is nothing that states that the schools HAVE to give 12th grade students a test in order to graduate.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2013 12:46:07 GMT -5
I have one kid who could be unschooled if given the right tools, who would probably be fine. My son could probably be fine just reading the books and end up pretty well educated. That is if he would ever stop playing video games or watching TV. That would be a pretty big if though. He would probably end up as the world record holder for Angry Birds though, if he got to make his own choices. My DD would be a total wash out. No way could she learn what she needed to know just based on what she feels like doing. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif) She is 17 and if I never said anything she would still be in bed right now. Maybe my resistance is more driven by my deep seated desire to have them both out of the house and supporting themselves before hunger sets in. In my DD's case that would probably be somewhere around 26 or 27. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yikes.png)
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2013 12:55:04 GMT -5
Actually, NCLB does not state that they have to pass a state test to graduate. It just states that they have to meet certain criteria to pass. Every state decides their own criteria. States DO have to give state test throughout K-12 to show that the students are progressing and that the school is making AYP, but there is nothing that states that the schools HAVE to give 12th grade students a test in order to graduate. I said they can choose how they will prove the students are proficient. I don't know how they would do it though if they don't have any tests to show what they do or don't know. It sounds kind of self fishy to say "hey our kids are all doing great and I know it because we choose not to have them take any tests to prove it". ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) I want to say 25 have HS prof tests and another 15 have EOC's and NJ has both for some reason. The different states having different criteria for what a HS students should have learned is a problem for me though. Shouldnt a student in HS in Michigan be learning basically the same things as the student in Texas or New Jersey?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 13:09:32 GMT -5
They do basically learn the same thing. Most students in most states learn basically the same thing. The only thing different that I can really think of is that in elementary, Michigan students learn Michigan history, Texas students learn about Texas history, Kansas students learn about Kansas history...etc. But from my experience (working in Michigan, Texas, and Kansas public schools) they do basically learn the same things. For example: Most states require HS students to have 4 years of math, 4 years of English, 3 or 4 years of Science, Social Studies 3 years, and 2 years of Foreign language...not always, but generally that is the basic core requirements for most states. They also have to have so many electives too. But, each state is in charge on writing their own standards and their own state tests.
I assumed you meant that they HAD to give them a test because you said something along the lines that they would lose funding if they didn't. Or that is how I read it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 13:16:21 GMT -5
No, SK what you just outlined shows a misconception of unschooling. That means I'm not explaining well.
Allowing kids to have choices doesn't mean putting them in charge. It means respecting their input and desires. I buy the household groceries. If my kids can rationalize why I should buy something I don't normally, I will. But ultimately I make the grocery choices. For dinner however, they don't have to eat what I make. There are plenty of options here, healthy but alternatives. But if they don't et what I make, they make for themselves...
Were suggesting unschoolers view their children as angelic?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 13:26:31 GMT -5
I know PA only requires 4 years of English. The rest 3, no foreign language. We've just switched to subject area tests, ie. you take Algebra I, you pass the Algebra I test...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 13:33:24 GMT -5
That is interesting Oped. I never worked in a district that didn't require 2 years of foreign language. Even when I was in HS, we were required to take at least 1 year of foreign language.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 13:42:02 GMT -5
I'm not sure how it will be going forward. There is like a 5 year plan to usher in new criteria? I haven't looked closely at it yet?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 20, 2013 14:30:07 GMT -5
i think Nj has been phasing in the EOC tests for 4 years now. They are up to requiring them for Algebra I and Biology and maybe 9th and 10th grade English. NJ is also pretty specific about what courses. So they don't just say two years of math but require Algebra I and Geometry, Bio and chem and World History and US I and II. The more general things required are 2 years of a foriegn lang and 1 year of an art. My Dd's school requires Alg II and a third year of a science of their choice. There are probably 5 other things they require that I have totally purged from my memory. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) I have lived in NJ, Ct and Ma and DH lived in Pa. I don't remember any state history being taught. I guess if something came up like in the revolutionary war or something and it was about that state they would make a point of saying it was about our state type thing. It wasn't an actual intention to teach the state history. I have a friend who moved to Texas and she says they make a big deal of teaching Texas history. She just thought it was kinda funny. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 15:01:26 GMT -5
Michgian teaches Michigan history in 3rd grade. It used to be 4th grade but then they changed it to 3rd. The states I mentioned did also require certain classes to fill the requirements as well. I just thought it would be easier to say Math, science, etc over listing them out. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) What can I say, I am lazy and under the influence of 2 glasses of wine. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 21, 2013 15:30:00 GMT -5
I get this. What I don't understand is why and where did this child, who eventually failed, get off track. I'm thinking it's in the very beginning, when he discovered that it was too difficult to keep up. What is so different now, than when our grandparents attended school? Very few failed back in those days. My thought is that our grandparents weren't bombarded with so many subjects, at such young ages. Look at all the things our kids are required to learn now at such an early age. I'm just saying that I think they are getting pushed too hard, too fast and with too many subjects. Too many are burning out before they even get to HS.
I think the problem is that people our grandparents age didn't do well in equal numbers. The schools just graduated them anyway even though they didn't know the basics. DH's father is an example of that. He was pushed through and eventually gradatuted HS without being able to read at even a basic level. Since there was no test or proof that the school had to have they could just let them graduate without question. Did they really do anyone a favor by giving him a HS diploma without being able to read or write?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 15:53:20 GMT -5
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 21, 2013 15:56:26 GMT -5
That is interesting Oped. I never worked in a district that didn't require 2 years of foreign language. Even when I was in HS, we were required to take at least 1 year of foreign language. Foreign language was not required at my school either. It was still not a requirement as late as 2005 when my youngest brother graduated. 4 years of English, 3 history, 3 math and I think 3 sciences. I had more math and science than required. The math is actually written as you have to get through Algebra 2, some people are nearly done by the end of 10th grade. The arts & sciences college at WVU requires 4 semesters of a foreign language. I took 201 and 202 as an intensive course in one semester because I was considering minoring. Many of my classmates were in the class because they needed to get the 4 semesters to graduate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 15:58:58 GMT -5
Fwiw we were required 2 years arts and humanities, language could count as that, but many other things as well...
still not sure new regs will be....
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 21, 2013 16:39:44 GMT -5
We did need an arts credit. I stuck it out through 9th grade choir at the junior high with a crappy teacher to get mine.
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Post by Sharon on Apr 21, 2013 17:11:31 GMT -5
That is interesting Oped. I never worked in a district that didn't require 2 years of foreign language. Even when I was in HS, we were required to take at least 1 year of foreign language. Our school district does not require 2 years of foreign language to graduate. I don't remember what classes the kids can take in lieu of foreign language However; the state colleges require 2 years of foreign language for admittance.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 23:50:29 GMT -5
I get this. What I don't understand is why and where did this child, who eventually failed, get off track. I'm thinking it's in the very beginning, when he discovered that it was too difficult to keep up. What is so different now, than when our grandparents attended school? Very few failed back in those days. My thought is that our grandparents weren't bombarded with so many subjects, at such young ages. Look at all the things our kids are required to learn now at such an early age. I'm just saying that I think they are getting pushed too hard, too fast and with too many subjects. Too many are burning out before they even get to HS.
I think the problem is that people our grandparents age didn't do well in equal numbers. The schools just graduated them anyway even though they didn't know the basics. DH's father is an example of that. He was pushed through and eventually gradatuted HS without being able to read at even a basic level. Since there was no test or proof that the school had to have they could just let them graduate without question. Did they really do anyone a favor by giving him a HS diploma without being able to read or write? My Dad did not know how to read when he graduated HS. He learned to read after he had us kids and he wanted to read to us. I can remember very clearly my Dad struggling to read little kid books to me. My mom graduated HS but isn't very bright. I know that sounds horrible, but she just isn't very smart. I don't know how many times I have to explain words to her because she doesn't believe that they are real words. She has horrible spelling and sometimes it is very difficult to read her emails because her sentences do not always make sense. They were both pretty much pushed through school and given a diploma.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 23:55:39 GMT -5
That is interesting Oped. I never worked in a district that didn't require 2 years of foreign language. Even when I was in HS, we were required to take at least 1 year of foreign language. Our school district does not require 2 years of foreign language to graduate. I don't remember what classes the kids can take in lieu of foreign language However; the state colleges require 2 years of foreign language for admittance. It seems like the schools would see that it is a requirement for college and make it a requirement in the school. How are kids getting into the state schools if they don't take foreign language? Are the ones that are college bound taking it as an elective and the others ones just decide to go a different route? I wonder how they handle it if they decide later that they do want to go to college? I am encouraging my kids take 2 years whether the school districts require it or not (we move a lot so who knows what the next school will require) due to the fact that most colleges do require it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2013 7:32:28 GMT -5
Grrr, lost my post.
There are many ways to get into college and many paths without it. In my high school, you might have taken language as your Arts and humanities, but why should everyone have to?
Many colleges that have a language requirement actually don't have a language requirement to get in, but to graduate... So if you don't have language, you have to take it there.
Son should finish Latin Ii HS year, that's all I require, so after that language is his choice. If he doesn't take one, he won't have high school language credits.
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