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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:00:00 GMT -5
Defining success is probably where we are running into some trouble here. If he only way you define success is STEM degree and high paying jobs, maybe not a high percentage of unschoolers go there, although I know some choose to...
but that is not the only way to have a successful life.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:00:35 GMT -5
I think what a lot of people might be thinking is that kids don't have very good long-range planning and haven't really embraced the concept of delayed satisfaction, so they don't see how true unschooling can work. If a 7-year-old says they want to become an engineer but they don't really like math, do you really think they will rationalize the fact that they need to just power through it to get to their career goal which is 18-19 years in the future?
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 19, 2013 9:05:04 GMT -5
Defining success is probably where we are running into some trouble here. If he only way you define success is STEM degree and high paying jobs, maybe not a high percentage of unschoolers go there, although I know some choose to... but that is not the only way to have a successful life. My favorite grandfather was an artist and died broke, but lived a wonderful life. I know STEM is not the only route. But one thing that would concern me is that as a parent, I think part of my job is to prepare my kids so that they have as many options as possible because when they're young, you have no way of knowing if they want to be a ballerina or a theoretical physicist. The problem with allowing them to, as young children, choose a route that may not allow them options later is that some things cannot be learned or absorbed in a few easy sessions. Not to harp on math, but it's an easy example. If an unschooled child suddenly decides at age 18 that s/he wants to get a STEM degree, but has only to that point mastered basic math, s/he is not going to be able to go to a decent STEM college without several more years of remedial work. So by not ensuring my kids get a decent foundation in certain core subjects, I feel that I'd be doing them a disservice because they would have fewer and fewer options. Exactly what I don't want to do as a parent. I'm all about the short term hard work in order to set one up for a good life and many choices and options.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 9:07:42 GMT -5
Are you saying that if you take a kid who doesn't want to learn calc, nd force him too, you can turn him into a STEM grad
Not at all. I can't force anyone to be anything. I can think of several subjects I've been expected to learn that I never thousand years thought I'd use while spending $635 per credit. Those classes have built a foundation that I've springboarded off of later.
I can't get to the advanced stuff till I've learned the other stuff. And it's great that you believe all kids will learn it whenever they want to or think they need to and will be able to educate themselves sufficiently in it to move onwards.
I disagree. And that's because I struggled with a very basic concept, no amount of self directed instruction has helped me master it, believe me I've tried. If I hadn't been pushed to suck it up because I needed to learn it I wouldn't have been able to move on even if I wanted to.
I'm not willing to take the chance my kid is going to be a motivated little sponge that will eventually learn everything at her own pace. I'm not willing to trust that by 11, as in one of your examples, she'll become motivated to read and eventually end up in MIT.
I'm told if public school doesn't work I have to consider alternatives. So what if unschooling doesn't work, do you go to a more structured system and possibly formal schooling? Or do you just keep at it and trust that eventually no matter what the kid will learn it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:11:03 GMT -5
Oped-what happens in your state if the kids don't keep up with the required home school standards? Are they ever forced to go into public school? You can't be forced to meet standards. I mean, not every public schooled kid is scoring even proficiency on heir standardized tests. You DO have to complete required activities. Ie. I have to submit an affidavit and broad goals each year. I have to log instructional days or hours (this can just be a checklist with corresponding materials/books lists), keep a portfolio of work completed/progress in specific subjects and have the portfolio and child reviewed by a certified teacher each year. I have to administer standardized tests in certain years and there re certain med screening requirements ( height weight, some years physical or dental, eye exam, etc). If you are our of compliance on those things, there can be issues raised with the court system which could lead you back to school. PA is a 'red' state. Not all states are that rule laden. That said, none of that is very hard or takes much. And many people unschool in PA going thru those hoops. Because, after all, learning easily happens every day... It just might not look like 'traditional school learning' ... I liked your earlier post. I often have people coming into homeschool from problems with school, many math phobias. My advice is invariably to unschool for at least 6 months, if there is a math phobia do no formal math for at least a year.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:13:58 GMT -5
I think what a lot of people might be thinking is that kids don't have very good long-range planning and haven't really embraced the concept of delayed satisfaction, so they don't see how true unschooling can work. If a 7-year-old says they want to become an engineer but they don't really like math, do you really think they will rationalize the fact that they need to just power through it to get to their career goal which is 18-19 years in the future? A 7 year old wont, but starting around 11 and by 14 they will. We have a weird conception that if you don't know A at 6, you can't know Z at 18. Like I said, Sudbury consistently show basic math achievable in 20 hours, not 5-6 years, if you wait till kids are older...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:15:52 GMT -5
Sigh. drama, instruction doesn't have to be self I reacted, impetus does. Lots of unschooled kids take classes. They just CHOOSE to take them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:17:16 GMT -5
Can you explain to me what you mean by Unschooling 'not working'. I really am trying to understand and answer, just all I can tell so far is it doesn't work if the kid doesn't eventually want to learn calculus?
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 19, 2013 9:18:43 GMT -5
I'm just a regular, average person and I was able to figure out, on my own, that my son was having an issue. When you spend a lot of one on one time with your child, certain things become obvious. Some things become obvious, some things do not. I hope that you're not implying that if a parent doesn't catch a problem with their child, it's just a simple matter of spending one on one time with that child. (I really don't think you're implying that, so wanted to confirm.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:19:09 GMT -5
I think what a lot of people might be thinking is that kids don't have very good long-range planning and haven't really embraced the concept of delayed satisfaction, so they don't see how true unschooling can work. If a 7-year-old says they want to become an engineer but they don't really like math, do you really think they will rationalize the fact that they need to just power through it to get to their career goal which is 18-19 years in the future? A 7 year old wont, but starting around 11 and by 14 they will. We have a weird conception that if you don't know A at 6, you can't know Z at 18. Like I said, Sudbury consistently show basic math achievable in 20 hours, not 5-6 years, if you wait till kids are older... I wasn't good at long-range planning at 14-15, and I'm STILL not that good at delaying gratification at 30. When will that come to me? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:22:04 GMT -5
Ok, I've done research an discussed with my wife.
We agree that a combo of schooling and unschooling would work best for us: Send our kid(s) to the traditional school setting and at home foster/grow any special interest they might have to the best of our capabilities.
Also we agree that it is easier and more fun to teach a kid that is truly interested/passionate about the subject they are on.
So if at 9 it is WWI and WWII we would encourage them to research everything on the subject and support that. Same if it is science or art or anything else; we will do whatever we can to help satisfy their curiosity and passion.
- The other reason is none of us are planning to stay home or cut back at work to monitor/manage their education.
- We both agree/feel that kids need structure/routine and school/us need to provide that; not just them learning what they want when they want.
Again those are our opinions (not facts) but it was fun looking into it/researching. Kudos to the parents that can pull it off without a glitch.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 19, 2013 9:22:55 GMT -5
I wasn't good at long-range planning at 14-15, and I'm STILL not that good at delaying gratification at 30. When will that come to me? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) When you desire it from within your being. [img]http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png[/img] Think. Do. Be.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 19, 2013 9:24:52 GMT -5
Can you explain to me what you mean by Unschooling 'not working'. I really am trying to understand and answer, just all I can tell so far is it doesn't work if the kid doesn't eventually want to learn calculus? I'm guessing they mean the same thing as others who say public school isn't working - when kids don't meet standards and don't enter the workforce/college with the appropriate level of knowledge and/or skills needed to do well, have they been successfully educated? If public school isn't for everyone (and I agree it isn't), I don't see how homeschooling/unschooling could be for everyone, either. That seems to be what a few of you are saying - that anyone can do it if they just try hard enough...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 9:24:55 GMT -5
Can you explain to me what you mean by Unschooling 'not working'
Sure. We'll use that kid from a previous thread that was 15 and all he does is play video games. His mom feeds him dinner because he won't even get up to eat. Other moms assure her this is okay and eventually he'll grow out of it and want to do other things.
I recognize that is rather extreme, but what would you do with that kid? He's 15 and has done nothing but sit in front of an X-box all day long.
Would you shut off his X-box and make him go out and explore/learn other things? Or would you agree with the other moms that he'' "grow out of it eventually"? Do you trust that he's "learning" while being attached to his X-box 24/7?
I could totally picture that being my brother, hell that IS my brother half the time. He's not a good internal motivator, if there is an easy way out he'll take it, he avoids hard work like it's the plague. And that's why he's still living with my parents.
I can't see unschooling working for my brother. With the exception of math I probably could have done it and thrived.
But what do you do if your kid is my brother and not me?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:25:16 GMT -5
So, what changed your personality to make you successful? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) you were forced into it? I didn't mean my 14 year old is sure what he wants to do ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) but he has started thinking on it, and is much more capable of understanding concepts of want this, need to do that.... For the last few months son has started setting an alarm for himself. He gets up, showers, does his Latin and math and checks in with me...
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Apr 19, 2013 9:27:08 GMT -5
But I'm not a Yoda type. <Beth wanders off to ponder which type of character from the 3 "real" Star Wars movies she's most like...>
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 9:28:29 GMT -5
What if the kid is a completely lazy ass like my brother. Unschooling him would have been a complete joke. My parents had to push him to do anything. If given the chance he would have been content to sit around and watch TV all day every day. What if you have a kid like that? ETA: Drama beat me to it. I guess her brother is a lazy ass too ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) My brother actually has a good job and has had a good job for 25 yrs; however, it was because my parents actually pushed him to do something with his life. Had he not been pushed he would have ended up a bum for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:29:35 GMT -5
Cawiau, that sounds good ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) . I want to caution you though. Be careful calling your idea unschooling ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) . As I've said, most unschoolers are very libertarian and specific in their definition. I taught math, and I was not unschooling any more. Sending a kid to school who does not choose it is fundamentally against the freedom/respect tenets most unschoolers hold dear... They would not consider enrichment/encouragement outside of school to be unschooling.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:30:38 GMT -5
I wasn't good at long-range planning at 14-15, and I'm STILL not that good at delaying gratification at 30. When will that come to me? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) When you desire it from within your being. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Think. Do. Be. Can't I just skip the "do" part?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:32:46 GMT -5
So, what changed your personality to make you successful? I'll let you know when I get there. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) For now, I am where I am because I want reasonably nice things and don't want to eat out of dumpsters and sleep under a bridge. But I've never wanted to do those things anyway, so it's not much of a change. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 9:37:39 GMT -5
My brother actually has a good job and has had a good job for 25 yrs; however, it was because my parents actually pushed him to do something with his life
::knock on wood:: My brother has a job with a moving company and likes it. Last I heard he's going for his CDL. I'm not holding my breath since he hasn't held any job longer than a month so far, but I'm interested in seeing how this progresses. Personally I think in this day and age getting your shit together at 23 is running behind, but better late than never I guess? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) And no he doesn't need anything advanced/fancy to move furniture but the job does require you have your HS diploma or GED. So he had to be pushed to at least do that for this job. Sitting on the couch smoking pot/playing video games for 23 years wouldn't have cut it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:37:42 GMT -5
I didn't read the feeding thing? I don't see that as unschooling as I've seen it in practice? I see that as weird and coddling... Lol. My first question is how would that kids life be different in school? Do you think with that mother and those inclinations he would suddenly be a different person. You said your brother is like that, was he unschooled? Me, I do put certain limits on video games. Much less strict I'm sure than others, but then I do not unschool. as I've seen unschooling done, and as I'd do it if I were, you give choice and offer freedom, but there are also the natural consequences of freedom and choices. I wouldn't feed a kid that age. I guess if he got sick or passed out he'd learn to eat? Respect and freedom go both ways. Unschool does not mean you have to coddle. ( nor incidentally so all coddling moms unschool). for instance, my kids like stuff. I am not inclined to buy stuff, thus they work, cause they need money to buy stuff.... Natural consequences ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 9:39:47 GMT -5
For the last few months son has started setting an alarm for himself. He gets up, showers, does his Latin and math and checks in with me...
But what if he didn't?? What if he slept until noon, got up and watch Young and Restless, played video games until 4, then went to play basketball with his friend until 6PM, came home ate dinner and then watched TV until midnight. Next day repeat... then what??
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:40:02 GMT -5
So, what changed your personality to make you successful? I'll let you know when I get there. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) For now, I am where I am because I want reasonably nice things and don't want to eat out of dumpsters and sleep under a bridge. But I've never wanted to do those things anyway, so it's not much of a change. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) Lol, crossed posted. Uh, that certainly CAN be the internal motivator. It doesn't have to be pleasure to do everything. As I said earlier, I have no desire to clean, but I have a healthy desire not to grow mold and bacteria and rodents, so I clean... ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) it is internally motivated, just not for pleasure of cleaning...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 9:42:15 GMT -5
All right we'll say the kid learns to at least nuke a Hot Pocket. What if he's never motivated to do anything else? How long would you wait for him to come out of his video game obessesion and naturally progress/learn grow? How long do you wait for internal motivation to kick in?
Because natural consequences in that instance are going to be he's living in your basement with no job if he doesn't gain the "desire" to learn and grow.
You said your brother is like that, was he unschooled
No but my parents rode his ass and made him keep going till he graduated high school. He has to at least have a diploma in order to function.
And no he couldn't have dropped out at 16, they changed it to 18 when he was in high school. So by law he had to at least finish high school.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:42:53 GMT -5
For the last few months son has started setting an alarm for himself. He gets up, showers, does his Latin and math and checks in with me...
But what if he didn't?? What if he slept until noon, got up and watch Young and Restless, played video games until 4, then went to play basketball with his friend until 6PM, came home ate dinner and then watched TV until midnight. Next day repeat... then what?? Then, if I was unschooling, he would. But, I don't buy stuff, so if he wanted stuff, he'd have to work eventually, with the skills that requires. I also wouldn't necessarily take him to b ball, so he'd have to find his way there, etc. skills, etc. lol, I am getting peck tired, I'll have to find my keyboard.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Apr 19, 2013 9:48:16 GMT -5
Oped and wrongside, I appreciate your comments. I'm sure you get tired of having to defend this, if that's the correct word/idea. But I want you to know that your efforts are not unnoticed. I'll be bailing on this thread (actually the boards) in a little while. I've got some stuff to get done by 1100 and if I keep playing here, it won't happen.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 9:48:54 GMT -5
So I'm right then that if you're unschooling you just trust that no matter what eventually they'll find their internal motivation and become a productive member of society even if it takes decades before it clicks?
Either that's some strong ass faith or serious denial. I can't decide which to be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 9:51:57 GMT -5
But one thing that would concern me is that as a parent, I think part of my job is to prepare my kids so that they have as many options as possible because when they're young, you have no way of knowing if they want to be a ballerina or a theoretical physicist. The problem with allowing them to, as young children, choose a route that may not allow them options later is that some things cannot be learned or absorbed in a few easy sessions. Not to harp on math, but it's an easy example. If an unschooled child suddenly decides at age 18 that s/he wants to get a STEM degree, but has only to that point mastered basic math, s/he is not going to be able to go to a decent STEM college without several more years of remedial work. So by not ensuring my kids get a decent foundation in certain core subjects, I feel that I'd be doing them a disservice because they would have fewer and fewer options. Exactly what I don't want to do as a parent. I'm all about the short term hard work in order to set one up for a good life and many choices and options. Obviously, I choose to teach math and science. I have the same worries. I will say though, if I had a lot of resistance I might choose differently? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) That said, most basic skills are learned thru life. Even in the copious video game references, I wanna know who is gaming without being able to do basic math/ strategy? ... Basic math is used every day. Algorithms are easy once you understand he concept. Also, it seems like people are equating unschooling with not doing anything? So not true. You introduce, expose, experience all over the place... There is a reason unschoolers have the best field trips ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) ... You just run with what the kids want to run with... 18 years is not short term.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 9:52:45 GMT -5
I started setting my own alarm and getting up for school when I was 9 yrs old. I loved the social interaction and learning new things. My brother, on the other hand, was the total opposite. If left to his own devices he would have sat around watching TV, smoking cigarettes and playing video games. If not for my parents he would have never finished high school. He actually ended up going to a community college because my parents told him he could either go to community college or get a full-time job and move out. He ended up going to community college and getting a two yr degree which actually lead him to a decent career. I can't imagine how he would have turned out though if my parents had just let him do what ever the hell he wanted 24/7. If they didn't buy him stuff then who's to say he wouldn't have just ended up stealing it.
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