Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 19, 2013 9:54:40 GMT -5
Drama - I think that's the whole philosophy behind unschooling. That it will eventually work itself out. So they would not recognize certain behaviors as a failure to the method. So if your kid is not interested in math, then they will eventually learn enough to function or they will become interested in something that needs the math skills, and their motivation to learn math will be to do whatever it is they are interested in. That does not have to happen under the timeline of traditional schooling. My dad learned calc on his own at 30 in order to go back to school for programming. He took college courses, but they were all motivated by his desire to break into another career field so at that time he had the interest and he took the steps to learn the necessary skills to persue that interest.
Thanks, wrongside and oped. I appreciate all you have done to educate & defend un-schooling when neither of you really do it yourselves.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:01:22 GMT -5
Also, it seems like people are equating unschooling with not doing anything? So not true. You introduce, expose, experience all over the place...
But what if your kid didn't want to go anywhere? What if they weren't interested in being introduced to anything? What if all they want to do is play WoW all day long and that's it?
You seem to be assuming all people are naturally internally motivated and curious and will blossom with minimial guidance.
I am related to someone who always takes the path of least resistance. He has to have his balls busted to get the bare minimum out of him.
Since he's an adult my parents can't make him use what he learned in school, but at least they forced him to achieve graduation. He has SOMETHING to fall back on should he finally pull his head out of his ass.
I don't think he would have achieved even that if he had been unschooled. The equivalent of a HS drop-out isn't going to get anywhere period.
We can point to some successful people who were HS drop-outs (Michael J Fox, Jim Carrey, Bobby Flay) but all those people had a drive to make something of themselves in spit of it. They're the exception to the rule.
I wouldn't want to count on my kid being Bobby Flay. if I saw her spending 24/7 on the X-box first thing is I'd destroy it/get rid of it and then her ass would be supervised and in school.
Which is why I could never unschool, I just don't have the faith that everything will turn out "okay" in the long run.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 10:03:28 GMT -5
Yes, THANK YOU wrongside and oped. I, too, appreciate your efforts to "school" us about homeschooling and unschooling. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 19, 2013 10:05:48 GMT -5
The thing is that you aren't starting with a 15 year old. I'm assuming you would start at 3. Let me tell you a 3 year old does not want to just sit around the house all day and watch TV. Even the iPad has a finite life to it with a 3 year old. I say this because we've had days/weeks with DH recovering from back surgery where DS's only options were to play by himself or watch TV with dad. He eventually chooses to do something else. They are intuitively curious and want to do things. Little kids want to learn.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 19, 2013 10:06:17 GMT -5
Yes, THANK YOU wrongside and oped. I, too, appreciate your efforts to "school" us about homeschooling and unschooling. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 10:07:01 GMT -5
Well, I would hope that if a parent sees that they're kid isn't responding to unschooling that they'd consider other schooling alternatives. I'd like to believe that a parent would chose their child's well-being over life philosophies. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 10:07:37 GMT -5
The thing is that you aren't starting with a 15 year old. I'm assuming you would start at 3. Let me tell you a 3 year old does not want to just sit around the house all day and watch TV. Even the iPad has a finite life to it with a 3 year old. I say this because we've had days/weeks with DH recovering from back surgery where DS's only options were to play by himself or watch TV with dad. He eventually chooses to do something else. They are intuitively curious and want to do things. Little kids want to learn. Of course, but what about when they turn into big kids who don't give a shit
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:08:12 GMT -5
For the record I have nothing against homeschooling, unschooling, private school, public school or whatever floats your boat. You're the parent you have the right to educate your kid as you see fit. I just can't wrap my head around unschooling. I can see it working for a bright highly motivated kid. I can't fathom unschooling someone like my brother and having the faith that eventually he'll pull his head out of his ass on his own. I guess I'm too cynical. That's why I wouldn't do it. I can't dredge up that kind of trust/faith. I'd be having panic attacks fearing the kid will be living in my basement forever. I have panic attacks now that if something happens to my parents my brother is going to show up on MY doorstep. Not a big enough risk taker and don't have that much confidence in people. Should probably hand in my parent card right now shouldn't it? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Apr 19, 2013 10:11:57 GMT -5
Natural consequences, Drama. He has to remain gainfully employed or he lives on the street since he has no money to go anywhere else. In most cases that's going to dredge up enough motivation to go get a job at McD's or Walmart. Or find a way to make a good living as a panhandler.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:12:02 GMT -5
Let me tell you a 3 year old does not want to just sit around the house all day and watch TV
I'm perfectly aware of that. If you knew my brother as a kid vs who he is now you'd be wondering what the F happened here.
It makes no sense to me whatsoever since we were both raised the same way. I do believe it's a good thing he was never "unschooled" and at least made it thru HS before going complete off the deep end. I think it would have happened a lot sooner if he hadn't had to keep going.
He has to remain gainfully employed or he lives on the street since he has no money to go anywhere else. In most cases that's going to dredge up enough motivation to go get a job at McD's or Walmart. Or find a way to make a good living as a panhandler.
I agree, to an extent. He's an adult now so yes it's up to him to yank his head out of his ass or face the consequences.
As a MINOR, I have to disagree. While my kid is under my charge I firmly believe it's my duty to arm her with what she needs to function in society.
I'm not going to trust that my minor child will do that automatically on her own. I feel like I am deliberately setting her up for the above if I don't make sure she sucks it up and does what she needs to do.
Others disagree with me and that's fine. I just honestly don't get it. My parents can't make my brother do anything as an adult but at least as a minor they busted his ass so he's not totally hosed should he change his mind.
And I'd argue there is a difference between me teaching myself stats or cellular biology now vs starting as the equivalent of a HS drop-out in th example of my brother. I've gone high enough that having to relearn or teach myself isn't going to hold me back.
If my brother had never graduated HS he's going to be significantly hindered and have a lot farther to go before he catches up.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 19, 2013 10:14:45 GMT -5
Let me tell you a 3 year old does not want to just sit around the house all day and watch TV
I'm perfectly aware of that. If you knew my brother as a kid vs who he is now you'd be wondering what the F happened here. It makes no sense to me whatsoever since we were both raised the same way. I do believe it's a good thing he was never "unschooled" and at least made it thru HS before going complete off the deep end. I think it would have happened a lot sooner if he hadn't had to keep going. Or maybe unschooling would have motivated him more because he did things he enjoyed doing?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:19:28 GMT -5
Or maybe unschooling would have motivated him more because he did things he enjoyed doing?
Well he has come up with the ideas of being a pot farmer or artisinal glass bong blower. Not really sure how big of a market there is for that though. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) Seriously, I'm not making that up. I don't know what happened. At 3 he wanted to be a fireman and ran with that a long time. My parents encouraged it and he even enrolled in the junior firefighters program. Then it all went to hell in a hand basket and hasn't turned around since. Like I said I am grateful my parents at least busted his balls enough to keep him in school till he graduated. I'd have even worse panic attacks if I was facing a HS drop-out situation. At least he has the bare minimum to get A job.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 19, 2013 10:24:28 GMT -5
I can't say that public school did the things for me that are being argued that unschooling fail at. I only knew basic math. I took math through algebra 2 and geometry, but didn't understand it at all. I passed because I tend to test well, and I showed up and tried. Even when every answer was wrong on my homework, I showed my work, so I got a decent score. (I also graduated with a 3.89 GPA so I'm not sure how my parents should have known how abysmal my math skills were since I wasn't mature enough to articulate it). That is one of the things I worry a out with my kids. If they are good kids and do what they are told 90% of the time, public school will pretty much ignore them. And as far as requiring a diploma or ged does any employer actually check that? I have a friend who lies about having her diploma. She left home at 18 because her home life sucked and never looked back. She has a better career than I do and has enough college credits that it wouldn't ever come up unless she ran for president. I wanted to be homeschooled desperately as a kid. Maybe I'd be more socially awkward and regret it, I don't know. But public school certainly doesn't guarantee success even if you pass.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:31:52 GMT -5
And as far as requiring a diploma or ged does any employer actually check that
Yes they do. My mom had an interview with a company that tried to confirm she graduated. They looked for her under her married name. Dumbasses.
DH had one that wanted his HS transcripts. You have any idea how hard it is to get a copy of a 1995 transcript? His was on microfilm!
Job before this one not only confirmed I graduated from IWCC and Simpson but wanted me to give them copies of my transcripts.
I don't know that every employer does and since I've gained more work experience my education doesn't matter as much but it has been chcked into on several occassions.
I think you can get lucky but I wouldn't want to bet on it.
I wanted to be homeschooled desperately as a kid. Maybe I'd be more socially awkward and regret it, I don't know. But public school certainly doesn't guarantee success even if you pass
Neither does homeschooling or unschooling. Which was my point.
I may be interpreting it wrong but it seems like the idea is unschooling will work for everyone no matter what.
Which I doubt is the case. I'm told if public school don't work I need a Plan B, C, D or maybe more. But, again if I am understanding everyone right, there is no Plan B-D for unschooling because it'll all work out on its own timetable.
Homeschooling I'd assume you try different cirriculums amd methodologies if one doesn't work out.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 19, 2013 10:32:02 GMT -5
Tell your brother to move to Colorado. There is a huge market it for it. One of our clients said his daughter was making $20 an hour and all she did was water and harvest pot plants...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:37:21 GMT -5
One of our clients said his daughter was making $20 an hour and all she did was water and harvest pot plants...
Problem is pot is still illegal on a federal level.
He knows which states pot is legal in and yes he's considered it. This was a scheme him and his friends came up with while high/drunk so I'm not sure how serious they really were.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 10:40:09 GMT -5
THIS!!!!!!! I would feel like an absolute failure as a parent if I just let my kid steer themselves into a life of poverty.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:48:41 GMT -5
If I am lucky she'll be like me and highly self motivated/driven and I won't have to worry about it.
If she's NOT. ..well I already have enough nightmares about what's going to happen with my brother should my parents go before he pulls his head out of his ass. I don't need to pile on nightmares about my kid.
I know my brother is not my responsibility and I've already had that discussion with DH, but that doesn't make the hypotheticals any more palatible to me. It's still a really unpleasant conversation that I shouldn't even have to have in the first place.
I comfort myself with the fact he at least has an HS diploma so he has enough of a foundation that he can make it up should he finally motivate himself. Which ::knock on wood:: this moving job seems to be providing.
If he had nothing but pot and video games I'd want to throw up right about now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 10:51:51 GMT -5
Like I said earlier one of my issues with it in my experience things just weren't fun until they got to the more complicated levels. So I'm not sure how I'd motivate my kid to get there. Learning how to make formulas in chemistry was boring in high school. Doing the qualitative analysis was fun. Basic math was boring but I still remember the sense of mastery I had the first time I completed a proof on my own, and it made sense! History in college wasn't all that fun but the MA level was so much more interesting. But maybe it was the way I was taught?
I also can't picture it right now because DS doesn't seem to want to learn specifics from me - like I'm happy to help him pursue his current interest in the Titanic but he goes to his Dad or teacher for help with phonics. I'm also neurotic and don't have a lot to compare DS to so having professionals in his life who have worked with hundreds if not thousands of kids is great for providing a balancing perspective.
OTOH - it seems like public schools don't have a lot of resources right now to teach kids the underlying theory behind the facts, which is important for mastery of the subject. I'm lucky enough to send DS to a project/inquiry based school which we hope will engage his interest. If we didn't have the resources I'd be really concerned about him kind of floating along in school, smart enough to pass but not really involved.
Milee - your son reminds me of a story DH told me about his childhood. His mom sent him to a class on rockets. He saved up his allowance, bought like ten, and put them on his skateboard. He hasn't changed much - he has a gas powered pogo stick in his man cave.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 19, 2013 10:55:11 GMT -5
I may be interpreting it wrong but it seems like the idea is unschooling will work for everyone no matter what.
Which I doubt is the case. I'm told if public school don't work I need a Plan B, C, D or maybe more. But, again if I am understanding everyone right, there is no Plan B-D for unschooling because it'll all work out on its own timetable.
That attitude isn't inherent to unschoolers. Thats just normal parental judgment. Lots of people think that their way is the only way whether its education, religion, or fad diet. Since no one here actually unschools there isn't even a disagreement to be had.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 10:59:25 GMT -5
Learning how to make formulas in chemistry was boring in high school
Yeah chemistry in high school was fairly boring since what you can do is so limited. It's in college where you get the chance to potentially blow your eyebrows off. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 19, 2013 11:03:48 GMT -5
[/strong]Problem is pot is still illegal on a federal level. [/quote] It is? Damn you public school! I actually have to work now, so I'm signing off. I blame wrongside and oped for making me want to look more and more into homeschooling at the worst possible time.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 11:05:28 GMT -5
It is
![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rofl.gif)
They moved onto the idea of the synethic pot, but that's now illegal in Iowa too. Poor guys just can't catch a break.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 19, 2013 11:13:34 GMT -5
This is a good point. I caught on to a lot of things quickly as a child, so would get discouraged very easily if I tried something that didn't come naturally to me. I never lasted more than one season in any sport before saying "This is stupid, I don't want to do it." One could argue that you should only explore those things that come naturally to you - but I don't think that philosophy works for all children.
Another example - I played the flute in jr high band, and for 2 years I was last chair. I stuck with it only because most of my friends were in band so at least we could pass notes. My dad told me he'd pay me $50 if I stuck with it through my freshman year (all my friends had quit and I wanted to too). Then my HS band teacher, who was an amazing guy, saw some potential and really encouraged me - and I ended up playing first chair from sophomore year until I graduated. But without some level of bribing, and then encouragement, I would've dropped band like a hot potato and never looked back.
Again, I think a lot of this is dependent on personality - but I think it underscores the fact that one size never fits all, whether we're talking about public/private/homeschool/unschool.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 11:16:05 GMT -5
Another example - I played the flute in jr high band, and for 2 years I was last chair. I stuck with it only because most of my friends were in band so at least we could pass notes. My dad told me he'd pay me $50 if I stuck with it through my freshman year. Then my HS band teacher, who was an amazing guy, saw some potential and really encouraged me - and I ended up playing first chair for the next three years. But without some level of bribing, and then encouragement, I would've dropped band like a hot potato and never looked back. And how different would your life be now if you had dropped the flute after the first 6 months?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 19, 2013 11:16:54 GMT -5
Another example - I played the flute in jr high band, and for 2 years I was last chair. I stuck with it only because most of my friends were in band so at least we could pass notes. My dad told me he'd pay me $50 if I stuck with it through my freshman year. Then my HS band teacher, who was an amazing guy, saw some potential and really encouraged me - and I ended up playing first chair for the next three years. But without some level of bribing, and then encouragement, I would've dropped band like a hot potato and never looked back. And how different would your life be now if you had dropped the flute after the first 6 months? She would not have had that awesome experience at band camp.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 11:19:19 GMT -5
Ah band camp. Everything Michelle Flatery said it was, and less. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 19, 2013 11:19:29 GMT -5
I faked playing the recorder in 4th grade.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 11:20:41 GMT -5
I think everyone faked the recorder in 4th grade. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 19, 2013 11:21:37 GMT -5
I faked playing the recorder in 4th grade. I'm fearful that is how my son will get through it, too. But he seems to be enjoying piano. He has had two lessons, so we will see how long he hangs on.
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