thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 4, 2011 10:18:23 GMT -5
Actually, it doesn't surprise me. I find that people who aren't face to face with each other for long periods of time, but have frequent contact can make up a fantasy for how the other person is, and you don't have to come face to face with the reality of how that person really is on a daily basis.
I had one guy in love with me, even though we lived many states apart. He definately has a skewed version of me in his head. I mean - it is a pretty great version! I'm in love with who he created, too.
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ugga81
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Post by ugga81 on Feb 4, 2011 10:42:20 GMT -5
I second the suggestion in post #22 for you to read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker. It's a great read and may give you a little more insight.
Also, I agree with everyone else. Document everything and then talk to both your manager and HR. You need to level with them about your concerns in this affecting your career, but you don't know what else to do. You aren't looking for anyone to be fired or reprimanded, but you'd like their advice on how to make the behavior stop. Then you can back up your efforts with the documentation.
If they don't do anything, time goes by, and the behavior continues, then have another meeting with them. During that meeting start bringing up things like "hostile work environment". If you feel like your boss and HR have done things to harm your career definitely bring up things like "whistleblower retaliation".
Ultimately, its up to the employer to provide a safe work environment. Safe doesn't mean just things like a building in accordance with fire codes and running water but it also is an environment free of harassment. This type of situation is why sexual harassment policies were implemented: people were uncomfortable with unwelcome advances and they feared for their careers.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 4, 2011 11:02:44 GMT -5
A lack of response by you to some of his comments could be seen as accepting the behavior. But, if you are consistent in your responses & have several documented incidents
I'd have to dig out the manual to be extra sure, but I remember in training that once we have clearly told someone to stop doing X that if they keep doing X that we can report them to HR.
OP I would clearly put in an IM or email that you save (or if you can't do that blind CC to yourself, you can have an IT person show you how to do it. Blind CC means he won't know you sent a copy of the email to another email address) that you ask him to STOP and that his behavior is making you UNCOMFORTABLE from that point on any communication that involves trying to court you is considered harassment by my HR.
You do need to make sure to use the actual word STOP. You need to type "This behavior has to STOP it is making me UNCOMFORTABLE and creating a HOSTILE WORKPLACE for me".
If he continues you can now hand HR yoru email/IM file showing that you clearly explained to him that he is creating a hostile workplace, that you clearly asked him to stop and that it has since continued.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 4, 2011 12:50:57 GMT -5
I think DQ gave some good advice. Not responding to the "I want to send you roses for Valentine's Day" may be seen as being OK with it by him.
Since it appears he only wants to talk to you and possibly send you roses I don't feel he's as dangerous as some of the other posters believe. In any event, it would be wise to document your response back to the rose IM stating that sending roses to you would be inappropiate and end the IM with the phrasing DQ used above.
If he escalates to suggesting he may want to come out to your office to see you it might be prudent to talk to someone in your office ASAP with your concerns with documentation you've saved in hand.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 4, 2011 14:35:23 GMT -5
A lack of response by you to some of his comments could be seen as accepting the behavior. But, if you are consistent in your responses & have several documented incidentsI'd have to dig out the manual to be extra sure, but I remember in training that once we have clearly told someone to stop doing X that if they keep doing X that we can report them to HR.OP I would clearly put in an IM or email that you save (or if you can't do that blind CC to yourself, you can have an IT person show you how to do it. Blind CC means he won't know you sent a copy of the email to another email address) that you ask him to STOP and that his behavior is making you UNCOMFORTABLE from that point on any communication that involves trying to court you is considered harassment by my HR. You do need to make sure to use the actual word STOP. You need to type "This behavior has to STOP it is making me UNCOMFORTABLE and creating a HOSTILE WORKPLACE for me". If he continues you can now hand HR yoru email/IM file showing that you clearly explained to him that he is creating a hostile workplace, that you clearly asked him to stop and that it has since continued. You are correct. You could have mutual sexual conversations with a co-worker for years upon end. But the moment you tell a co-worker to stop and you are no longer interested, that is where you have put the co-worker on notice his conversations are no longer welcomed.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 4, 2011 15:59:01 GMT -5
...:::"I think DQ gave some good advice. Not responding to the "I want to send you roses for Valentine's Day" may be seen as being OK with it by him.":::...
Totally. It is a sad truth that a lack of resistance is often considered acceptance. And don't accept any of Zib's loser talk about how you are powerless because you are a woman. IMO, you have ALL the power.
...:::"You do need to make sure to use the actual word STOP. You need to type "This behavior has to STOP it is making me UNCOMFORTABLE and creating a HOSTILE WORKPLACE for me".":::...
Pay close attention to DQ, because she is spot on. The way this garbage seems to go is that unless you recite some specific incantation while facing west, wearing blue, and standing on your right foot, that it doesn't count. If you only get one shot, it needs to be a kill shot.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 4, 2011 16:28:25 GMT -5
Yeah, cuz I'm the ONLY one who said this. Besides to CYA, to get the old emails and IM's off her computer and to not trust HR. You sure have a bug up your butt about me for some reason. It isn't LOSER talk, it's reality and she needs to be careful how she pursues this. Although to find out the guy is several states away does shed a rather bizarre spin on the whole situation.
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Post by debtheaven on Feb 4, 2011 17:30:42 GMT -5
Pay close attention to DQ, because she is spot on. The way this garbage seems to go is that unless you recite some specific incantation while facing west, wearing blue, and standing on your right foot, that it doesn't count. If you only get one shot, it needs to be a kill shot.
Aye to Gowron. And to Tennesseer too who obviously knows what he is talking about from an HR perspective. (Crazy story by the way!) It is comforting to know that grabbing a boobie is neither better nor worse than grabbing a guy's privates, and that both parties were treated equally. Kudos to you (and / or your company).
The bottom line is, some people are weird. At my old co a gal came back while on maternity leave to "show off" her new baby. That was pretty standard practice there. However, staying nearly all day, and choosing the most crowded dept with the most guys (the women outnumbered the guys there) to completely remove your top AND your bra to breastfeed topless in the middle of the room while sitting on the dep't conference table for well over an hour, not so much.
Elizabeth, you need to use the right vocabulary, both to CYA and to get help from HR if / when you need it. You probably received a co manual that you stuck somewhere when you were first hired. Dig it out, read the appropriate chapters, and incorporate the same vocabulary in your responses to him.
And I agree that saying nothing to somebody like that is tantamount to saying yes. I think you need to formulate a standard response using the "buzzwords" you have seen here and in the manual, and send that response to EVERY unwanted email / solicitation.
I realize you work with this guy, but if his email (or intranet correspondance, whatever) includes ANYTHING that is not work related, you need to send him that "standard" response.
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 4, 2011 23:24:24 GMT -5
Thanks again all for your replies, suggestions, and concern. I will definitely pick up the book that a few have suggested. It would be good to know where he is coming from and why he is acting like this. I will also call the HR hotline and see how I should proceed from there. Although I admit I am nervous to do it based on my past experience. I just can't mess this up. Everyone has been so helpful and I truly appreciate it!
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Feb 10, 2011 19:44:38 GMT -5
Elizabeth- Any updates?
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Elizabeth
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Post by Elizabeth on Feb 11, 2011 0:40:39 GMT -5
Hi Sharon,
Well the update is that I haven't taken it to HR yet. I'm still hesitant to do that. Although I will say he has backed off quite a bit. He does send IMs that say things like "I only wanted to tell you how I feel" and other BS to try to make me feel guilty, and I save that to my Word doc. But he hasn't e-mailed anything inappropriate or called me either. I know I probably should take this to HR, if not for me, then for other women he has harrassed in the past or will harrass in the future. I'm still afraid of the drama that would cause. The good news for me is that he will be moving to a different part of the company in April and will not have the same IM system or any reason to call me. I'm thinking I might feel more comfortable taking it to HR then so he can't impact my income. I know others don't agree with me for that, and that's ok, but I really, really can't afford to take a pay cut or lose my salary all together at this point.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 11, 2011 9:48:46 GMT -5
He does send IMs that say things like "I only wanted to tell you how I feel" and other BS to try to make me feel guilty
Don't ignore these. You need to IM him back and say "I told you to STOP IM-ing me. This topic is CLOSED, it makes me UNCOMFORTABLE and I do not wish to have any more communication with you about it".
Repeat repeat repeat. You not only need documentation of what he is saying but that you have asked him REPEATEDLY to stop and he hasn't.
He is still technically harassing you if you have told him to stop talking to you about it.
He's just trying to use vauge language in the hopes that he now won't get caught.
So keep IM-ing him back to STOP and save those as well. It does you no good to have a list of the things that he said. You need to include in that list that you have asked him and asked him more than once to STOP and he keeps going.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 11, 2011 10:35:53 GMT -5
Actually, elizabeth, as you put your last post - I would play it cool. April is not that far away and he is all the way across the country. I don't think you are in any danger, and there is no need to rock the boat at this time. I would just respond "You have told me how you feel, and I have told you that I am not interested" and then put you status as "Away" and go to the bathroom.
You can take it to HR after he isn't part of your daily routine.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 11, 2011 10:44:06 GMT -5
He does send IMs that say things like "I only wanted to tell you how I feel" and other BS to try to make me feel guiltyDon't ignore these. You need to IM him back and say "I told you to STOP IM-ing me. This topic is CLOSED, it makes me UNCOMFORTABLE and I do not wish to have any more communication with you about it". Repeat repeat repeat. You not only need documentation of what he is saying but that you have asked him REPEATEDLY to stop and he hasn't. He is still technically harassing you if you have told him to stop talking to you about it. He's just trying to use vauge language in the hopes that he now won't get caught. So keep IM-ing him back to STOP and save those as well. It does you no good to have a list of the things that he said. You need to include in that list that you have asked him and asked him more than once to STOP and he keeps going. Yes. You need to keep on telling him that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 11, 2011 10:47:36 GMT -5
If she's never going to turn him into HR then my answer is probably moot. However should she decide to at least here she would have to have documentation that she has asked him to stop and actually used the word STOP.
That's just the policy here. Again if she never intends to turn him in then the point is moot, but there is no point in documenting and storing what he is saying to her unless she has the proof to back up that she has asked him to stop and he never has.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 11, 2011 10:49:21 GMT -5
I think responding with caps and telling him you are uncomfortable feeds his need to have an effect on her. He wants to know he is ruffling her feathers. Either blow it off, or report it. One will stop it gradually, the other may mess up your life for the next couple of months.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 11, 2011 10:50:12 GMT -5
I guess the real question is if she wants him to stop, or if she wants him to get fired.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 11, 2011 10:53:03 GMT -5
I just used caps to stress that she has to use the word stop. I didn't mean she litereally has to captilize it. Sorry for any confusion.
Again if she doesn't want to report it then she doesn't have to do anything that I suggest. But at least here she'd have to have proof that she asked him to stop and that it's making her uncomfortable. If she doesn't have that it doesn't matter how many pages of stuff she has about him because there is no proof it wasn't consensual.
So why go thru all the hassle of documenting what he is saying if you aren't going to cover your end? You are right either report it or don't, but if she chooses to report it she needs to make sure she has her side covered proving that it wasn't consensual.
Either way there are consequences, but at least if you are going to report him cover yourself so he can't come back to HR and say it was consensual and have them turn around on you.
He can affect her current job, HR investgating her can affect everywhere she goes in the company. So if you are going to HR at least protect yourself.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 11, 2011 10:58:28 GMT -5
I think her original response was clear enough. As much disdain as I have for HR, they won't say "Oh, gee, so you asked him to stop - let me see the documentation. Oh, no, you didn't actually use the word 'stop' so, sorry, we aren't going to even think about this." This isn't a basic computer program where typing the word "stop" will cause something magical and undeniable to happen. This is language, and she has made herself clear enough.
Given that fact that he will be a non-issue in 8 weeks and she lives 3000 miles away - she isn't in danger, physically. She needs to protect her job right now. The best way to do that is to continue to politely decline talking about this with him. She can use the word stop or not, but if she does, it won't be a magic bullet that will instantly change the situation or magically fix the problem.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Feb 11, 2011 13:08:46 GMT -5
Personally, I think it's crucial to report these things even if you preface it with, "I am not looking to get this person in trouble, I just want it documented in case it goes farther."
I did that with my own situation. Thus far, it hasn't gone any farther and I haven't had to do anything. I have no desire to wreck the guy's life just because he was seriously inappropriate. I did, however, learn from that little exchange with my HR manager that this guy has "boundary issues" and has in fact been called on them in the past. Well, what do you know?? That alone made me glad I'd documented the incident.
People like this do not usually change without force (like the threat of losing their job). They need to be called on their inappropriate behavior, multiple times.
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