Issue With Coworker

[thyme4change]

Why not her husband? Particularly if he's large or a black belt in karate

Because women should be able to handle it themselves. Really - this is just dumb.

If a man came on here and said he was having trouble relating to his co-workers would you say "Invite your wife to the office to kiss up to your co-workers."?

Just dumb.

[thyme4change]

shanendoah - I agree with you. I would tell my boss if something like this was going on - but I've always had a relationship with my boss where I could discuss stuff like this. Even at this point, I might say "Hey boss, I just want to let you know, George asked me out repeatedly and I turned him down, and the last couple of times it got a little harsh. Now he seems kind of pissed off. Maybe it will blow over, but I wanted you to know in case he starts messing with my {{enter work product here}}. I hope it goes no further - but I just wanted you to be aware."

[verrip1]

HR people are scum. They're always playing both sides against the middle. Generally they hold jobs in HR because they have no marketable skills. Their stock in trade is the secret. They use that to keep power. They are like the freakin' Gestapo.

Lower creatures were never created.

[zibazinski]

There are good and bad people in HR, just like in most jobs. HR was useless for me, protect their behinds was the way of the wind, but now that HR has been outsourced, it's different. It seems that HR is only ineffective if they are in-house and have to play the game.

[reader79]

I went to HR once. My director had significantly changed my job description with no prior notice, after having laid off all of the part-time staff. I was expected to cover shifts four days a week, and accomplish my full-time duties on top of that. She started creating a paper trail against me, and was extremely hostile to me and another guy in meetings.

I scheduled an appointment to talk to an HR rep to ask for advice, as one of my concerns was that she was trying to demote me (she had fought against my promotion the year before.) By the time I got back across the street from the 15min meeting, she was waiting for me in the elevator vestibule. She grabbed me by the arm and pulled me into a conference room and started yelling at me 'he said you said X, and that you were concerned about Y, etc.' I was too shocked to say anything other than 'uhhhhh.'

Never again. She was let go a few months after that, but to this day the guy cannot look me in the face. I kept going over the meeting in my head, and I realized that he had received a call right after I came in, where he picked up the phone, pressed a button and placed it back on the receiver. It is my belief that he put his boss on speaker so that she could listen in, and that she was the one who called the crazy lady. They were friends, which was why I didn't ask for her.

[zibazinski]

HR's job is to cover their butts and protect the company.

[shanendoah]

HR's job is to protect the company, and trust me, when there's the possibility of a sexual harassment suit, nowadays, that gets them moving pretty good.

[debtheaven]

HR's job is to cover their butts and protect the company.

This is true. But at this point the stalker is sounding more and more like a wingnut, so the OP has to show HR that it is in their interest to deal with him IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE COMPANY.

Elizabeth, he sounds downright scary to me now, with this "you will be mine one day". When I read that I could hear the mad cackling in the background.

The fact that he backed down immediately shows he KNOWS he has been out of line. He apologized and said he wouldn't bother you anymore WHICH MEANS HE ACKNOWLEDGES THAT HE HAS BEEN BOTHERING / HARASSING YOU. It is an admission of a pattern, and an admission of guilt. It should be treated as such, even if you (regrettably) didn't copy the earlier IMs.

Do you have no other trace of them? Did you ever forward them to a friend or your husband?

ETA: Write AS MUCH DOWN AS YOU CAN REMEMBER. Even if you don't have the physical proof, it will help your argument that you originally didn't think the situation warranted dealing with your boss / HR but you feel you made a mistake so here are all the other situations / interactions you would be willing to attest to.

[thyme4change]

But at this point the stalker is sounding more and more like a wingnut

It is always easy to think the other guy is a wingnut when you hear one side of the story. I wouldn't count on HR backing you up. He has been productive for the company - they will most likely give him the benefit of a doubt. Who knows how solid his story is - real or fiction. I would let it slide and see if he knows he was busted and goes home and has a moment of clarity, realizes that he probably wasn't doing smart things and tries to have a clean slate starting tomorrow.

[whoisjohngalt]

First let me say, that there are three sides to every story. But going on OP's story alone, I would be much less concern with my bonus or even a job, and much more concern with my personal safety. Based on what she said (and on that only) he sounds quite unstable.

Oh, and I've yet to see a useful HR department, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't go on record, in case something bad does happen later.

Lena

[Opti]

Feb 2, 2011 15:09:55 GMT -5 Elizabeth said:

Update: This morning I came into my office and I received a call from him asking how I was doing this morning. I told him I am busy and don't have time for small talk, and asked if there was anything I could help him with. He then came back with "What's wrong, can't we talk it over?" I responded with "I have nothing to talk about with you unless you have something business related we need to discuss." To which again he wanted to know what my problem was and begged me to tell him what was wrong. I told him that I am very sorry if I ever led him on but it was unintentional, that I am not interested and if he keeps pursuing me I will contact HR, at which point he slammed the phone down. A few minutes later he sent me an IM that said "Please, please can't we talk about this?" I said "I meant what I said about reporting you to HR." I saw the note that says "(name) is typing" going on for about 5 minutes as I waited for his reply. But all he finally came back with "Fine. I am sorry I have disturbed you. I won't bother you again. BYE!!" So, who knows if he really is finished. I will have to watch my deals very closely to make sure he does't decline them for ridiculous reasons if they should happen to go to his queue, but I don't want to leave a job I have worked hard to get because he is insane, stupid, or both. I did save the IM conversation into a Word document. I wish I had been saving them all along.

The best way to handle this situation is to remind yourself that your desire to explain and be nice is hurting you.

How I might have handled this.
HIM: How are you doing today?
Me: Fine. I've got work to do unless you have an urgent business matter to discuss.
HIM: What's wrong? Can't we talk it over?
Me: Nothing to discuss I have work to do. Bye.
(If I was feeling sarcastic and snarky I might say: What, you think I want to discuss that I want to get my work done on time? Bill, (or whatever his name is) can you waste time chatting up someone else? I'm going to do my work. Bye.)

Conversation over. Rinse and repeat if he decides to come over and
make it personal.

Every time you say something like the below, it keeps things on a personal level.
"I told him that I am very sorry if I ever led him on but it was unintentional, that I am not interested"

Do not explain. Do not apologize. If you continue to do either your odds of being the one to leave the company get higher. He doesn't want to be your friend so it would be wise to settle for prickly co-worker. Good luck.
I look forward to tomorrow's post.

[Elizabeth]

Reader79- Your story reminds me of why I am so hesitant to take this to HR. The one and only time I ever went was about 10 years ago, in my first office job. I had a situation that I took to HR, not only did the guy I filed a complaint on find out and confront me about it, but I felt like I was blacklisted after that as well. Also, he did get demoted about 6 months later, but was never fired as far as I know. He was still there when I left the company.

[zibazinski]

Men usually end up getting protected in these cases. Even by women HR people.

[ihearyou2]

Feb 2, 2011 19:00:35 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Men usually end up getting protected in these cases. Even by women HR people.

Comedy Hour has officially began....

[Firebird]

Feb 2, 2011 17:13:02 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Why not her husband? Particularly if he's large or a black belt in karate

Because women should be able to handle it themselves. Really - this is just dumb.

If a man came on here and said he was having trouble relating to his co-workers would you say "Invite your wife to the office to kiss up to your co-workers."?

Just dumb.

It's not dumb. Yes, if you're having a simple interpersonal problem you need to be a big girl/boy and handle it on your own. This is different-- I personally believe her physical safety is at risk, which means that she needs to do whatever is necessary to make sure this guy gets the message.

I'm all for women protecting themselves and standing up for themselves, but in situations where people are not responding the way normal people respond, you sometimes have to get creative. There's nothing weak about engaging help/protection from one's life partner in a threatening situation.

I don't necessarily think he needs to call the guy up, but this can be done in a very subtle way-- that's why I suggested introducing him around and having hubby make a pointed comment or two when he meets this guy that implies a) they have a solid and loving relationship, and b) bad things could happen to anyone who tried to get in the way of that. There are creative ways to communicate exactly that without ever once making a direct threat.

[Nazgul Girl]

This is a difficult and interesting problem. When I worked in the billing office of a large hospital, I had problems with two men who evidently wanted me to be the object of their sexual drives. I was surprised because I was married, had child, overweight, and acted uninviting toward them. ( Warning, this is gross but actually happened several times to women in my office, not just me. ) The worst-acting of the two was an RN who wasn't allowed to have contact with patients anymore ( what a surprise ) who would station himself up behind my chair, and push his testicles and penis into the back of my head while while bending over to "teach me" about something on my computer screen. Yeah, right.

I handled him by first telling him to stand back politely. When that didn't work, I started to use the technique of standing up abruptly, and announcing to cube-world in general, " I appreciate it if you didn't stand so close to my back. I can feel your privates pressing on me !! Oh, did I HURT you ? !! A couple of other women belted him in the privates while "accidentally" moving a large binder around suddenly, etc. He sort of left us alone after a few of these sessions, and eventually, I heard that they had gotten rid of him.

In Elizabeth's case, it sounds as if she has been far too nice to this ninny. I would say that telling him that he was a friend early on just gave him encouragement. I would march into my boss' office, and let him or her know that "Fred" seems to have been a little "off" lately.....that he seems to think that we have some kind of "special relationship" even though she's happily married to "Gerald"....and that he doesn't seem to "get it" when she's giving him a polite hint. Tell the boss that you're sure that "Fred" is having a difficult time understanding that he's not even your work buddy, and that he must be having a rough period in his personal life to even think that. Tell the boss he's even been sending these weird emails....and that you're starting to think of having to take it to an outside authority. Something will probably be done forthwith. If not, and you lose your job, copy the emails before you leave, call an attorney, and possibly consider contacting the IRS or whomever about "shady" business practices.

[zibazinski]

Mmm, it might just work, you never know. But what if her DF just looks like a normal dude? My Mom has a HUGE scary looking ethnic male that collects her rent. She NEVER has late or non-paid rent which I find just hysterical. Even funnier is that they think he is her husband, something she has never corrected!!! But the funniest thing is that he is a huge cat. My kids adored him when they were growing up but I swear, he looks like an evil ex-con. He is a fomer dock worker but still....

[ummboutthat]

worst advise so far hsclassic

In our company, that call would go into an Ethics and Compliance hotline. If that option doesn't exist, call the Law Department and ask to speak with the labor attorney. You can always mention you are considering hiring an attorney to deal with this unwanted situation....that will get their attention. (I work in the Law Department and have a pretty good idea of which buttons, when pushed, get attention.) And, yes, document everything....even phone calls.

best advise so far optimist4life

Feb 2, 2011 18:39:10 GMT -5 Opti said:

The best way to handle this situation is to remind yourself that your desire to explain and be nice is hurting you.

How I might have handled this.
HIM: How are you doing today?
Me: Fine. I've got work to do unless you have an urgent business matter to discuss.
HIM: What's wrong? Can't we talk it over?
Me: Nothing to discuss I have work to do. Bye.
(If I was feeling sarcastic and snarky I might say: What, you think I want to discuss that I want to get my work done on time? Bill, (or whatever his name is) can you waste time chatting up someone else? I'm going to do my work. Bye.)

Conversation over. Rinse and repeat if he decides to come over and
make it personal.

Every time you say something like the below, it keeps things on a personal level.
"I told him that I am very sorry if I ever led him on but it was unintentional, that I am not interested"

Do not explain. Do not apologize. If you continue to do either your odds of being the one to leave the company get higher. He doesn't want to be your friend so it would be wise to settle for prickly co-worker. Good luck.
I look forward to tomorrow's post.

what's done is done - I do hope the best for you
why not just could have kept it girly? and giggle. He asks you out, make advances - tell him no each and every time.

[ummboutthat]

OH WAIT that reminds me....
wow I'll be 40 this year so 15 to 17 YEARS ago!
I had a co-worker that was in a similar situation
a guy constantly kept asking her to go out.
she said no every time!
finally she said yes and agreed on a restaurant and time
she showed up with HER HUSBAND!!
;D
no problems! Husband didn't get in dudes face, dude didn't get up and leave. they pretty much ate dinner, very light conversation, dude offered to pay for all 3 and did.
afterwards in the office dude stopped asking her out

[Tennesseer]

Elizabeth-from an HR perspective, you took the first step by putting him on notice. You told him to stop.

That's all it takes. You now need to document your conversation with your co-worker and send it via e-mail to your HR department along with copying your manager. A paper trail is an absolute must for you. Document everything and notify HR and your manager every time something that makes you fell uncomfortable around him occurs. You must remember this-once you notify your manager and HR it is no longer your problem-it is their problem.

In your email state you don't wish to your co-worker to be disciplined. You are only notifying HR and your manager of your co-worker's behavior. Then list some of his most egregious behavioral examples. Tell them you have repeatedly told him to stop and recall dates if you can.

If your HR department is worth their salary, they should ask you to fill out a sexual harassment form. You only have 7 days to complete and return it. To cover yourself, don't assume you have seven days to complete the form-ask HR how long do you have to complete the document-they should tell you anyway.

Complete the form and return it within the required time frame. You can fill out the form or not-that is your decision. But failure to fill it out and return it in the required time frame could hurt your case if you ever have to seek external assistance (the EEOC-filing sexual harassment charges) to rectify your working conditions.

There is a term in the work place called constructive discharge. What that means is the workplace became such a hostile environment for an employee, the employee had to quit their job-there was no other choice. But to have a solid case of constructive discharge, there also has to be documentation the employee sought help from their manager and the HR department but they failed to address or take action with the other employee.

So get this problem off your back and report it via email to your manager and HR. You need to protect yourself and not worry about the other employee. You told him to stop and he has not up to this point. He says he will stop-put a document together anyway to protect yourself and copy your manager and HR. Tell them what has happened up to today and he supposedly said he will stop. Maybe he will-maybe he won't. But cover yourself and put the company on notice anyway.

And taping conversations is rather risky unless you know the laws of your state. You could get in legal trouble if it is not allowed in your state so be careful. And keep your spouse out of this at all costs.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 2, 2011 18:45:28 GMT -5 Elizabeth said:

Reader79- Your story reminds me of why I am so hesitant to take this to HR. The one and only time I ever went was about 10 years ago, in my first office job. I had a situation that I took to HR, not only did the guy I filed a complaint on find out and confront me about it, but I felt like I was blacklisted after that as well. Also, he did get demoted about 6 months later, but was never fired as far as I know. He was still there when I left the company.

Not all inappropriate behavior does (or should) result in termination of an employee. It depends upon the actions and circumstances. Often times they move the offending employee to a different department. That doesn't always happen though. And if the offended party would feel more comfortable working in a different department, they should make that known to management too.

[thyme4change]

I personally believe her physical safety is at risk, which means that she needs to do whatever is necessary to make sure this guy gets the message.

If a co-worker is going to physically harm a co-worker, calling in a third party shouldn't be the first step - going to someone in charge - boss, HR, etc. If a large man was picking on a smaller sized man, would you suggest that the smaller guy have his Dad come to work?

This is why so many people don't respect women in the workplace - because they are all weirded out, assume some guy is going to assault them, and sends in their boyfriends to start a physical squabble. It makes the rest of us look stupid.

[Plain Old Petunia]

Thyme, I don't think you have misunderstood the suggetion of having her husband call or come for a visit. It isn't because the little lady can't fend for herself.

Have you ever known someone who had an unrealistic, fixated fantasy? They tend to be in denial. This man isn't "hearing" OP. OP saying "No" does not penetrate his fantasy. However, seeing OP with her husband just might shatter his fantasy that OP is pining for him too.

ETA: Or, it might not. But what harm could it do for OP's husband to meet her for lunch one day and meet her co-workers? If it solves her problem, fabulous.

[shanendoah]

Petunia: The harm is that what if the next person he fixates on isn't married/doesn't have a BF to come in to be shown off? This young man needs to learn that his actions are inappropriate because she said "No", not because she's married.
If this were happening at a bar she hung out at, then sure, have the DH or BF come in would be appropriate. But its not. This is her work environment.
And since the OP has never said her HR department is worthless or that her boss would ignore this kind of complaint, that is absolutley where she needs to start. Especially since there should be documentable proof of him removing her deals from other people's queues.
Maybe I'm lucky in that I've never had a bad HR department, or that because of my age (35), sexual harrasment has never been acceptable workplace behavior. But there is an appropriate course of action here, and it involves the OP's Boss and HR department, NOT her husband.

[thyme4change]

I don't know what kind of office the OP works in. I've worked in a variety of offices - but generally - people don't walk around with their spouses. In about half the offices I've worked in, they would need to get a guest pass, and at least 2 of the offices - those were tough to get. You can't just let non-employees wander around the building - even accompanied.

So, sure, now we are down to having the husband standing around in the parking lot, and there would have to be some orchestrated thing where the three of them just magically ended up in the parking lot at the same time. Maybe in an environment where the whistle blows and everyone exits the building in mass. Don't you think the awkwardness of trying to oraganize that would look pathetic?

If just merely seeing the guy is enough, maybe the OP should get a 16x20 framed portrait of them hugging and looking longingly at each other. It would be much more likely to be seen, and seen repeatedly.

[Plain Old Petunia]

Shanendoah, Of course this young man should learn that "no" means "no". Is that OP's responsibility? I think her concern is for herself and her job, not the co-worker.

[thyme4change]

Yes, and her job won't be helped if she is seen walking around the office with her husband's hands all over her.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

He gets jealous of my husband and says creepy things like "One day you will be mine, I just know it."

Holy crap. Sorry but for me NO JOB would be worth this. My psycho radar shot up thru the roof after reading this statement.

Personally I'd make sure if at all possible to never be alone with him. If you have security I'd ask them to escort you to your car, especially if you leave when it is dark. My university will provide an escort no questions asked any time you request one.

I'd start looking for another job, report him to HR and take my chances with losing a bonus or getting fired.

From the sexual harassment seminar we had during orientation you've put him on notice by very clearly stating you do not want his attention.

Start documenting and the next step is to report him to HR for sexual harassment.

It may come back to bite you in the butt, but personally I think trying to keep your head down and handle it on your own is going to end a lot worse.

[Plain Old Petunia]

Who suggested her husband should grope her in the office? I must have missed that suggestion. I agree, it is not a good one.

[whoisjohngalt]

If I had a employee who had her DH/mother/father/sister/brother/son/3rd uncle twice removed fight her battles AT WORK! no way I would be taking that person seriously.

Work is work. It's me and me only. There are number of ways to handle pretty much any situation, but having your DH/mother, etc etc etc show up is ridiculous. You want to be treated as a professional and not as some damsel in distress, act like it.

I think this part of the advice is just terrible.

Lena