Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:35:32 GMT -5
If you dial 911 and tell them where you are and that an officer is behind you they can dispatch that officer who is trying to pull you over and let them know why you are hesitant to pull over. I know this because I did it once. It was late at night in a pretty deserted area and the cop tried to pull me over and I called 911 just verify. The dispatcher let the officer know and called me back and told me the officer said there is a 24 hr gas station 2 exits up and I can stop there. The police officer acted a bit "put out" but said he understood my concern. Before cell phones though this could have been a real problem. I think this is a lot different than "if it's a guy you don't have to obey his orders". Its exactly what I said earlier...
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 13:36:15 GMT -5
So basically: Mid -
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:38:07 GMT -5
I am curious if the neighbors knew they were kids with play guns and told the police what they did to get them to come out then, or did they realy think they were people with real guns? I don't know if the neighbors knew they were airsoft guns or not. I do know that part of why my friend was angry that they didn't call her was that their son used to play with Zander and he doesn't any more, so she knew the parents. Read into that what you want, but I'm guessing they didn't want their son playing with Zander, either and knew talking to her wouldn't be helpful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:38:49 GMT -5
GEL... I specifically said the neighbor's yard or neighborhood was nowhere to be playing with an air soft gun. That does not meant they can't be used safely and appropriately. We don't have fenced yards here. I have an acre and a half. The house the boys play air soft most often has 4 acres of woods... My dad has about 50 at his cabin...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:39:03 GMT -5
The point is, the normal reaction of a child WOULD be child-like - no faking required. The fact that a twelve-year-old would have had to "fake" fear/crying after being pursued by the police at gunpoint is the red flag here. Not that he asserted his rights, or was 'honest' by not pretending to be scared. If you took Milee's initial post in a vacuum, I could kind of agree with you. But in context, it sounds as though this kid has some sociopathic tendencies. Having a parent who believes his or her child can do no wrong won't do much to stifle these tendencies. But either way the reaction to what he does with the police is going to be viewed as negative. If it's a mature adult reaction, then it's abnormal. If it's a child-like reaction then it's going to be "he always fakes being the innocent little child". I understand that it's due to his background. What I'm saying though is that due to his background, he's in a cant-win situation in regards to his reaction. Adult or child-like there's going to be some way to knock it. If I say "your reaction is always to fake crying", and then we attend a funeral...you're either a fake crier who cried, or you're a heartless ice queen who didn't. And all of that is set up by the fact that I've taken the normal reaction, and used it to classify you as something negative when doing it. It's a no-win situation, because you either have the normal reaction which is classified as you "acting", or you have your real reaction which is classified as "abnormal".
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 13:39:08 GMT -5
mom is proud that he asked for a lawyer after the police chased him with guns.
Do people really believe that cops just chase kids and come armed for the hell of it?
I would not be proud of how my kid handled being chased by the cops. I'd be pissed that my kid was being chased by the cops.
I certianly would not be boasting to my friend about how good a job my kid did in the situation.
There wouldn't be anything left of me for the cops by the time my parents got thru with me if they ever found out I had been chased by the cops. How I handled the situation would be the absolute last thing on their minds.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:40:32 GMT -5
Ok. If I was in a position where the only way I was going to keep my son away from Zander, and it was going to ultimately impact/disolve the friendship anyway, i might take a stab at trying to say something... not sure if you are at that point.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:41:02 GMT -5
::How many 12/13 year old boys do you regularly deal with? Do they have much interaction with police? ::
I worked daycamp for several years consisting of 11, 12, and 13 year olds. Plenty of them were mature enough not to break down into tears over things like this.
::who ever even said that? I sure didn't. :;
Anyone who said they wouldn't turn off their car or step out of their car if the officer told them to.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 13:41:48 GMT -5
I think for most of us, the problem was not so much his reaction to the police, but his mother's reaction to his reaction to the police, as well as her characterization of the neighbors as "jerks" for calling the cops on a group of kids roaming the neighborhood with realistic-looking guns.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:42:20 GMT -5
But even the police will tell you NOT to do those things if you aren't sure of who you are dealing with and where you are ...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:42:24 GMT -5
::Do people really believe that cops just chase kids and come armed for the hell of it?::
I would assume they come armed if the report is "there is a group of people with firearms"
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 13:43:14 GMT -5
mom is proud that he asked for a lawyer after the police chased him with guns.Do people really believe that cops just chase kids and come armed for the hell of it? I would not be proud of how my kid handled being chased by the cops. I'd be pissed that my kid was being chased by the cops. I certianly would not be boasting to my friend about how good a job my kid did in the situation. There wouldn't be anything left of me for the cops by the time my parents got thru with me if they ever found out I had been chased by the cops. How I handled the situation would be the absolute last thing on their minds. Reminds of some of these fools I see on Judge Judy when they try and defend their kids.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:43:51 GMT -5
But even the police will tell you NOT to do those things if you aren't sure of who you are dealing with and where you are ... So you call 911 and find out if you're really dealing with a cop. That's a much different act than telling the cop "I will only follow the orders if they come from a woman (or if a woman is present)."
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:43:52 GMT -5
The point is, the normal reaction of a child WOULD be child-like - no faking required. The fact that a twelve-year-old would have had to "fake" fear/crying after being pursued by the police at gunpoint is the red flag here. Not that he asserted his rights, or was 'honest' by not pretending to be scared. If you took Milee's initial post in a vacuum, I could kind of agree with you. But in context, it sounds as though this kid has some sociopathic tendencies. Having a parent who believes his or her child can do no wrong won't do much to stifle these tendencies. But either way the reaction to what he does with the police is going to be viewed as negative. If it's a mature adult reaction, then it's abnormal. If it's a child-like reaction then it's going to be "he always fakes being the innocent little child". I understand that it's due to his background. What I'm saying though is that due to his background, he's in a cant-win situation in regards to his reaction. Adult or child-like there's going to be some way to knock it. If I say "your reaction is always to fake crying", and then we attend a funeral...you're either a fake crier who cried, or you're a heartless ice queen who didn't. And all of that is set up by the fact that I've taken the normal reaction, and used it to classify you as something negative when doing it. It's a no-win situation, because you either have the normal reaction which is classified as you "acting", or you have your real reaction which is classified as "abnormal". Not even remotely what I believe or what I have stated. Here's what I think would have been entirely normal and appropriate: Zander and some friends were playing with airsoft guns. They made a bad choice and started roaming the neighborhood and one of the neighbors called the police. When the police talked to him, Zand
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2012 13:44:08 GMT -5
GEL... I specifically said the neighbor's yard or neighborhood was nowhere to be playing with an air soft gun. That does not meant they can't be used safely and appropriately. We don't have fenced yards here. I have an acre and a half. The house the boys play air soft most often has 4 acres of woods... My dad has about 50 at his cabin... I read that. And you are, from what I can tell, one of the "responsible" parents I was referring to. There are plenty that aren't and it just breaks my heart to see a child lost because of it. Just not worth it IMO. But? I don't have kids and I might decide completely different if I did - especially if I was in your situation with wood areas to use them safely in.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 13:45:14 GMT -5
But even the police will tell you NOT to do those things if you aren't sure of who you are dealing with and where you are ... That's one of the things they kept stressing with that string of highway murders. You don't just get out of the car and you don't just do what the officer says. A real police officer is going to understand and will be willing to give you a badge number and let you call it in before you do what they say.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 13:45:28 GMT -5
But even the police will tell you NOT to do those things if you aren't sure of who you are dealing with and where you are ... So you call 911 and find out if you're really dealing with a cop. That's a much different act than telling the cop "I will only follow the orders if they come from a woman (or if a woman is present)." Who said that? I must have missed that one...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:46:37 GMT -5
But even the police will tell you NOT to do those things if you aren't sure of who you are dealing with and where you are ... So you call 911 and find out if you're really dealing with a cop. That's a much different act than telling the cop "I will only follow the orders if they come from a woman (or if a woman is present)." The advice was to ask for a female officer IF you were being asked to get out of the vehicle. I see nothing wrong with that. And an officer should not have any problem complying with the request.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:46:44 GMT -5
I think for most of us, the problem was not so much his reaction to the police, but his mother's reaction to his reaction to the police, as well as her characterization of the neighbors as "jerks" for calling the cops on a group of kids roaming the neighborhood with realistic-looking guns. Ok, but that makes the mother wrong, it doesn't make the kid wrong. I do think she has reason to be proud of her son's adult reaction rather than playing the innocent baby. I think her classification of the neighbors as "jerks" is ridiculous...unless it's one of those things where the neighbor knew it was kids with airsoft guns and embellished the story to get the cops there. (like the story of the kids and the dog getting their baseball in this thread).
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:46:46 GMT -5
sorry, pushed the wrong button. Here's what would have been OK and normal:
When the police talked to him, Zander was scared but remembered to be polite. He asked for the police to call me and we handled it together. He is embarrassed by the whole thing, but we've talked and he knows now it's not OK to play in the neighbor's yard or outside our yard with the airsoft.
There's a pretty wide range of what would be normal and OK, Hoops. You're the one who's taking the no-possible-right-way approach.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:47:09 GMT -5
I hate to be repetitive here but multiple mental health professionals have interacted with this kid and see a major problem. I think Milee was using this incident to illustrate a bad pattern of behavior.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:47:54 GMT -5
So you call 911 and find out if you're really dealing with a cop. That's a much different act than telling the cop "I will only follow the orders if they come from a woman (or if a woman is present)." The advice was to ask for a female officer IF you were being asked to get out of the vehicle. I see nothing wrong with that. And an officer should not have any problem complying with the request. They shouldn't? You know not every police force has a female officer right? And no, people were saying they WOULD NOT do that for a male officer. Not that they'd just make a request first.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 13:48:07 GMT -5
I do think she has reason to be proud of her son's adult reaction rather than playing the innocent baby
We'll have to disagree on this. I would not be proud of my kid's reaction after being chased by the cops because my kid shouldn't have been chased by the cops in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:49:17 GMT -5
When police officers, with decades of experience, have publically announced they are unable to tell the difference between those air soft/pellet guns at a distance, why in the world would anyone take a chance and let their child have one? Yes. Most of them now are required to have an orange marking on the barrel of the gun. That's a bit hard to see in the dark.Well I found this gun in my house and I'm no expert but I was holding it in my hand and thought it was real. My first thought was that it was mine because it was exactly like it, but I knew mine was locked up. There was about to be some smoke in the city because someone had brought a gun in here. I didn't realize what it was until I tried to pop the "clip" out. I was relieved it wasn't a real gun, but I was still on the warpath. Hijack over.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:52:08 GMT -5
::There's a pretty wide range of what would be normal and OK, Hoops.::
That's what would have been "normal", I would argue with "OK". He wasn't scared though. So given that he wasn't scared, there has to be an "OK" way for him to act that doesn't involve simply feeling what you think he should feel. You're creating a situation where the only acceptable response is to feel how you tell him to feel. Given that he doesn't actually feel that way, there still has to be acceptable behavior. Behavior is not the same as the feeling experienced.
Your description of his actions are nearly identical to what his actual actions were. The issue is that he didn't feel the way you have determined is acceptable to feel. So you've made it impossible for him to take the right approach, because you've based it on feelings rather than actions.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:52:28 GMT -5
When police officers, with decades of experience, have publically announced they are unable to tell the difference between those air soft/pellet guns at a distance, why in the world would anyone take a chance and let their child have one? Yes. Most of them now are required to have an orange marking on the barrel of the gun. That's a bit hard to see in the dark.Well I found this gun in my house and I'm no expert but I was holding it in my hand and thought it was real. My first thought was that it was mine because it was exactly like it, but I knew mine was locked up. There was about to be some smoke in the city because someone had brought a gun in here. I didn't realize what it was until I tried to pop the "clip" out. I was relieved it wasn't a real gun, but I was still on the warpath. Hijack over. Pink, that's not a hijack - it's completely on topic. These guns look very realistic. It is not unreasonable to assume a neighbor - or God forbid, the police - might mistake them for real. The consequences could be horrific. Another reason I would want my kid to react respectfully of authority. Combine real-looking weapon with kid who might run or mouth off and a tragedy could easily happen.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 13:52:31 GMT -5
I am curious if the neighbors knew they were kids with play guns and told the police what they did to get them to come out then, or did they realy think they were people with real guns? I don't know if the neighbors knew they were airsoft guns or not. I do know that part of why my friend was angry that they didn't call her was that their son used to play with Zander and he doesn't any more, so she knew the parents. Read into that what you want, but I'm guessing they didn't want their son playing with Zander, either and knew talking to her wouldn't be helpful. The fact that they knew Zander as a trouble maker might be part of the reason they called. If I have identified the neighbor kid as a potential sociopath, then I don't want him in my yard at all. Especially with any sort of weaponary, even if just an airsoft gun. It doesn't help that the mom would defend his actions to the parents, so why even bother calling her.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2012 13:53:06 GMT -5
I did that, too. I apologize.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:53:54 GMT -5
I do think she has reason to be proud of her son's adult reaction rather than playing the innocent babyWe'll have to disagree on this. I would not be proud of my kid's reaction after being chased by the cops because my kid shouldn't have been chased by the cops in the first place. Right, so like I said, there's nothing he could have done that you'd have been proud of, so he can't win no matter what his reaction is.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:54:23 GMT -5
::There's a pretty wide range of what would be normal and OK, Hoops.:: That's what would have been "normal", I would argue with "OK". He wasn't scared though. So given that he wasn't scared, there has to be an "OK" way for him to act that doesn't involve simply feeling what you think he should feel. You're creating a situation where the only acceptable response is to feel how you tell him to feel. Given that he doesn't actually feel that way, there still has to be acceptable behavior. Behavior is not the same as the feeling experienced. Your description of his actions are nearly identical to what his actual actions were. The issue is that he didn't feel the way you have determined is acceptable to feel. So you've made it impossible for him to take the right approach, because you've based it on feelings rather than actions. Because I think the fact that he wasn't scared indicates there may be a problem. He's not dumb, so it's not because he's too stupid to know he might be shot. So help me understand why a 12 year old should not be scared when police with guns chase him down? I'm not being argumentative, I just am not seeing any good reasons that don't point at potential problems.
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