Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 13:14:46 GMT -5
I would not turn off the engine. I probably would not stop. I would call 911 and advise them that I was proceeding to a well lighted, populated area and have them convey the message. If I got in trouble, so be it. If i did stop, I would not turn of the engine. I think if you don't pull over as soon as you're able, they can charge you with resisting arrest.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:15:06 GMT -5
I think to be safe no one should ever stop of a cop anywhere.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:15:10 GMT -5
Air soft guns, like paint guns, are fun. When used correctly.
My kids also have their own real bows, which I will allow them to shoot at targets with minimal supervision. And real guns, which are newer and shot with adults.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 13:15:36 GMT -5
You do have the right if you are pulled over in a secluded/deserted area to continue on to a public area as long as you acknowledge the cop, such as putting on your hazard lights.
Then they recently have had a string of murders that involved someone impersonating an officer. They said if you get pulled over in a deserted area to move onto a public place, you have that right. They also gave out a number you can call or you can call 911 and they will be able to tell you if an actual cop is stationed in the area.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 13:15:56 GMT -5
For what it's worth (absolutely nothing) the police officers from my hometown who engaged in the illegal strip-search were female. As were the victims. Not that the majority of police officer rapists aren't male, but requesting a female officer doesn't guarantee safety.
No one should be asked to exit the vehicle at a routine traffic stop anyway - so that's probably a red herring.
And Hoops, I think you're overreaching a bit. Most of us agree that it's good for kids to be aware of their rights when dealing with the police (whether they should assert these rights seems to be up for debate). But from what Milee has described, this isn't your typical kid, and this is less a matter of civic education than the blase reaction of the kid and his mother to an incident that should have been a little upsetting.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 13:16:36 GMT -5
None of us was there, so it's all speculation as to how the kid reacted. Maybe he did cop an attitude, maybe he didn't, we'll never know for sure. But his actions, asking for his parent and a lawyer, was exactly what he should do, what any kid should do. So would you feel the same way if the kid got in trouble at school and was sent to the principal's office for misbehaving? You mean do I think a kid should ask for a lawyer and a parent if they get in trouble at school? No, a principle should be able to handle disciplinary matters without involving legal counsel, and I'd trust their judgement to call if they needed to. A principal isn't the police.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:17:41 GMT -5
No.. you are within your rights to call 911 and confirm a legitimate police officer is pulling you over.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 5, 2012 13:18:10 GMT -5
Is there ever a time during a routine traffic stop that you would be asked to get out of your car? I can't think of any, so if I was asked to do that by any police officer I would worry.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:18:41 GMT -5
My 18 year old son recently cried when pulled over after running a stop sign he didn't see, in an area he was lost in. Heck, I still shake if they pull me over and I am an adult..
I think Zander's parents are in for some very, very long teenage years...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 13:20:04 GMT -5
Thyme4change does have a point Rukh. If they have to call out another car for a routine traffic stop, your daughter is far less likely to get off with a warning. I also found it a little strange for a woman to refuse to obey a male officer. Not refusing. Requesting a female officer be called. if you are pulled over for a traffic ticket, you roll down the window, the office approaches, and asks for the id, etc. You give it - he asks a few q's - and may or may not write up a ticket. If they are asking you to get out of the vehicle, it is something else. I do not think it untoward that if an officer says could you please exit the vehicle to respond with I'd be happy to but I request a female officer be present. If you say so. As midJd pointed out, just because a female officer is on the scene doesn't mean something shady can't go down. A female officer can still be corrupt and do an illegal strip search, and illegal car search or use excessive force. You obviously have a lot more faith in female officers to be paragons of virtue than male officers.
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justme
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Post by justme on Oct 5, 2012 13:20:28 GMT -5
I would not turn off the engine. I probably would not stop. I would call 911 and advise them that I was proceeding to a well lighted, populated area and have them convey the message. If I got in trouble, so be it. If i did stop, I would not turn of the engine. So then it's not just a matter of "don't step out of the car", it's also a matter of "disobey the officer in other ways". I've heard from cops themselves this is thebest way to handle it if you are in a deserted area. They understand that, they understand safety and it's not like no one has pretended to be a cop and pulled someone over in a deserted area.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 13:20:58 GMT -5
::That's in regards to stepping out of a car. I probably wouldn't step out of my car for a male officer in a deserted area either. :: But you'll talk to him...how exactly? Will you turn off the engine? I've never turned off my engine while being pulled over. In a deserted area, I probably wouldn't do so at the officer's request either or exit the vehicle. Unless there is a valid reason for such a request, then it is very fishy. I would probably explain myself & request his badge/name & ask that I am allowed to call the police station & verify his identity & then I will comply. In fact in a deserted area I might call up the police before the cop gets to my window.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 13:22:23 GMT -5
Both, I suppose, but I meant red herring. You're right, you're not asked to exit at a routine stop. So the argument of "if you get pulled over and request a female officer, you're going to get a ticket for wasting police resources" doesn't really apply.
If you're being asked to exit the car, I think more than one officer should be present as a matter of course - both for the driver's safety AND the officers' safety. Because there's more going on than a speeding ticket.
And you are within your rights to refuse to exit the car, unless there's some sort of imminent danger.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:23:12 GMT -5
I'm not a parent, so this is a completely serious question: Why would any parent buy their child an air soft pistol or whatever you call it? I'm not anti-gun. Believe me. I have more weapons in my home than most pawn shops. I know what my weapons are for. What does a child need an air-soft pistol for? What are they supposed to be doing with them? I saw an air-soft pistol that looks exactly like a 9mm I own. Same brand on the side and everything. I actually thought it was the exact same gun but I wondered why the sights were yellow. No way would I let my kid run around with one of those. You have to examine it very closely to know it's not really a 9mm and I wouldn't want my kid to get shot because they have an air-soft pistol in their hand.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2012 13:23:39 GMT -5
Air soft guns, like paint guns, are fun. When used correctly. My kids also have their own real bows, which I will allow them to shoot at targets with minimal supervision. And real guns, which are newer and shot with adults. Ok. Thanks.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:25:10 GMT -5
I guess I don't really understand the idea that him reacting as an adult would is worrisome. Hoops, it's subtle and I admit I may be overreacting because I'm already worried about the situation. But here's my best effort to explain what I think is happening: This kid has some personality traits that are difficult to deal with. He has issues with empathy and has hurt others. Other kids quickly learn they do not want to play around him. Adults do not trust him. His parents do not see this. For every situation he gets into, they find a good reason why it was not his fault. Discipline is not regular. He has sensed this weakness and developed some very adult, very disturbing behaviours to - IMHO - exploit it. With his mother, he tends to act very much like she treats him - a 3 year old. He will assume a very youngish aspect, lisp, throw tantrums and call her "mommy", even though most of the time he refers to her in a distant way, "my Mother" for example. When his mother is not around, he does not act at all like a 3 year old, more like an adult that has contempt for others. I have seen him tell an adult with a curled lip and sneer "I don't have to listen to you" and then when his mom shows up, it's wide blue eyes and "mommy, I don't know what he's talking about! Mommy..." My son has told stories about how at school if Zander has done something wrong, he will either act like an innocent baby or lie, depending on the authority he is faced with. I think he is very smart and manipulative. He's smart enough to realize what he can get away with and how it works. He is large enough, sneaky enough and smart enough that he could easily make some pretty bad choices as he doesn't seem to be willing or able to modify his own behaviour. Other kids don't trust him not to hurt them and I think they are correct in that assessment. Although I think it is highly unusual for him to have the fairly composed, challenging interaction with a police officer, I am open to others' input. I believe that this is an example of him not respecting authority and also knowing nothing will happen to him. I think most kids would at least have been shaken by this and it would have served as a way to reinforce the need for better decision making. Instead, obviously neither of them view this as a problem and instead think it served as an example of how smart he is. I'd be worried, not proud, but again as I said, I'm a tough parent.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:25:22 GMT -5
Is there ever a time during a routine traffic stop that you would be asked to get out of your car? I can't think of any, so if I was asked to do that by any police officer I would worry. I've been involved in routine traffic stops both as a driver and passenger. In every situation they've asked whoever was driving to step out of the vehicle and sit in the back of the cop car while they processed the ticket/research/etc. The cop has always given the same reason each time too, that it was a procedural change on highways to protect officer safety on narrow shoulders (which has always been where I've seen the stops)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 5, 2012 13:27:13 GMT -5
Milee--you said that your friend still wants Zander to be friends with your son because of the good influence. Maybe you could be direct to her about your concerns in regards to the kids spending time together and focus it on how the boys tend to make bad choices when they are together.
I do think the issue is bigger than that, but at least it could open the door to conversation, and would alleviate you trying to avoid plans that might put your kids together inadvertently.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 13:27:48 GMT -5
If you dial 911 and tell them where you are and that an officer is behind you they can dispatch that officer who is trying to pull you over and let them know why you are hesitant to pull over. I know this because I did it once. It was late at night in a pretty deserted area and the cop tried to pull me over and I called 911 just verify. The dispatcher let the officer know and called me back and told me the officer said there is a 24 hr gas station 2 exits up and I can stop there. The police officer acted a bit "put out" but said he understood my concern. Before cell phones though this could have been a real problem.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:28:03 GMT -5
::My son has told stories about how at school if Zander has done something wrong, he will either act like an innocent baby or lie, depending on the authority he is faced with.::
So then wouldn't this be a positive sign? He apparently didnt' act like an innocent baby or lie. I'd be more worried if he'd acted like everyone here thinks he should act...crying and pretending to be scared and baby-like. I guess I just see it as a situation where any action he takes is either going to be adult, or it's going to be fake child-like, which is already his MO and would be a negative.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 13:28:36 GMT -5
Is there ever a time during a routine traffic stop that you would be asked to get out of your car? I can't think of any, so if I was asked to do that by any police officer I would worry. I've been involved in routine traffic stops both as a driver and passenger. In every situation they've asked whoever was driving to step out of the vehicle and sit in the back of the cop car while they processed the ticket/research/etc. The cop has always given the same reason each time too, that it was a procedural change on highways to protect officer safety on narrow shoulders (which has always been where I've seen the stops) Wow, I have never seen that done. I would never pull over on a narrow shoulder though. My last ticket was on a state highway & I pulled off onto the next turn & stopped.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 13:29:05 GMT -5
So basically:
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 13:29:05 GMT -5
If you dial 911 and tell them where you are and that an officer is behind you they can dispatch that officer who is trying to pull you over and let them know why you are hesitant to pull over. I know this because I did it once. It was late at night in a pretty deserted area and the cop tried to pull me over and I called 911 just verify. The dispatcher let the officer know and called me back and told me the officer said there is a 24 hr gas station 2 exits up and I can stop there. The police officer acted a bit "put out" but said he understood my concern. Before cell phones though this could have been a real problem. I think this is a lot different than "if it's a guy you don't have to obey his orders".
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Oct 5, 2012 13:31:10 GMT -5
I am curious if the neighbors knew they were kids with play guns and told the police what they did to get them to come out then, or did they realy think they were people with real guns?
I did have a problem with teens jumping my fence and throwing rocks at my dogs to keep them away from them while they got stuff that had landed in my yard. The police wouldn't come out for it because it wasn't a high priority to them. They weren't hardened criminals just kids who wanted their baseball back. All of a sudden it dawned on me to not admit to knowing how old they were. When they asked how big they were I replied honestly and say much talling than me. they were all close to six foot but maybe 16. Guess what the police came right away and they never did it again.
Does that make me a douch a coanoe? Maybe but it did solve my problem so I'm fine with that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 13:31:53 GMT -5
almost you can also slow down/put on your hazards. My mom did this before cell phones and pulled into a gas station rather than the middle of nowhere. She was concerned she would be in trouble but the cop told her it is her right to move to a public area. She wasn't in trouble because she flipped on her hazards the moment the cop turned on his lights. He knew she had seen him/acknowledged him so he followed her to the public area.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 13:32:03 GMT -5
The point is, the normal reaction of a child WOULD be child-like - no faking required.
The fact that a twelve-year-old would have had to "fake" fear/crying after being pursued by the police at gunpoint is the red flag here. Not that he asserted his rights, or was 'honest' by not pretending to be scared.
If you took Milee's initial post in a vacuum, I could kind of agree with you. But in context, it sounds as though this kid has some sociopathic tendencies. Having a parent who believes his or her child can do no wrong won't do much to stifle these tendencies.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 5, 2012 13:32:58 GMT -5
Exactly. I can think of about a million other things I could buy my child for "fun". I believe just this summer, a junior high kid (somewhere in Texas) was shot and killed by police officers because they thought his was a real gun.
Granted, this doesn't happen every day, but I would think once would be enough if it was your kid who got killed.
I get really frustrated with the anti-establishment "down wit da fuzz" people constantly citing bad cop stories. For every bad cop story (and of course I know there are plenty) that someone can post, I can post 10 good cop stories that don't come off the internet but rather come from RL experience. These men and women don't want to shoot kids. They have kids of their own.
When police officers, with decades of experience, have publically announced they are unable to tell the difference between those air soft/pellet guns at a distance, why in the world would anyone take a chance and let their child have one? Yes. Most of them now are required to have an orange marking on the barrel of the gun. That's a bit hard to see in the dark.
I'm sure the parents here supervise their children and keep the pistols put away under lock and key until they are able to supervise the gun play. And I'm sure they have instructed their children on the proper use of them. However, most people don't. Or they forget once. Or the neighbor kid gets ahold of it.
I certainly wouldn't want that responsbility. The kid in the OP? His problems start with his mother, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:33:32 GMT -5
Milee posted earlier that this kid was dumped by his first therapist who thought he needed daily, intensive help. His friends are ditching him because his behavior is out of control. Zander's dad doesn't think he needs help and his mom is proud that he asked for a lawyer after the police chased him with guns. This is not the behavior of a normal twelve year old. I think Milee was using this incident as an example of an overall disturbing behavioral pattern.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 13:34:43 GMT -5
He has sensed this weakness and developed some very adult, very disturbing behaviours to - IMHO - exploit it. With his mother, he tends to act very much like she treats him - a 3 year old. He will assume a very youngish aspect, lisp, throw tantrums and call her "mommy", even though most of the time he refers to her in a distant way, "my Mother" for example. When his mother is not around, he does not act at all like a 3 year old, more like an adult that has contempt for others. I have seen him tell an adult with a curled lip and sneer "I don't have to listen to you" and then when his mom shows up, it's wide blue eyes and "mommy, I don't know what he's talking about! Mommy..." That is exactly what the child in the NY Times article I posted earlier in the thread did.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 13:34:57 GMT -5
::My son has told stories about how at school if Zander has done something wrong, he will either act like an innocent baby or lie, depending on the authority he is faced with.:: So then wouldn't this be a positive sign? He apparently didnt' act like an innocent baby or lie. I'd be more worried if he'd acted like everyone here thinks he should act...crying and pretending to be scared and baby-like. I guess I just see it as a situation where any action he takes is either going to be adult, or it's going to be fake child-like, which is already his MO and would be a negative. Twice now you've referred to "everyone" but with positions that I - the OP - haven't expressed. No idea why you think I would expect him to act like a baby or cry, I'm just stating that it would be normal for this to have scared him or shaken him and that it didn't. How many 12/13 year old boys do you regularly deal with? Do they have much interaction with police?
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