Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 21:34:53 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 21:31:33 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

What exactly were you looking for from "him"?
----------------
Looking for from him? I just wanted him to take up domicile in my heart again. He left and I wanted him back. I kept pounding and pounding on that door but he wasn't home.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were a non-believer.

I am now.

[weltschmerz]

Just because I'm a happy little atheist now doesn't mean I was always a non-believer. When you feel your faith slipping away, it's a very frightening and confusing thing. I wanted it back.

[weltschmerz]

It's like looking down on your first bike ride and seeing that your training wheels are gone. I panicked. I needed them to keep me safe.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 21:47:09 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 21:44:12 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Just because I'm a happy little atheist now doesn't mean I was always a non-believer. When you feel your faith slipping away, it's a very frightening and confusing thing. I wanted it back.

I can understand why you would. It seems to me that the only time someone's faith would slip away would be when they felt they had been betrayed in some way.
Trying hard to understand.

Betrayed? Not at all. There was no personal crisis. My faith had been disappearing bit by bit for quite some time, until I realized it was all gone. I tried to get it back, but like ethereal gossamer, the more I tried to grasp at it, the more it kept slipping through my fingers.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 21:51:18 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 21:48:16 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It's like looking down on your first bike ride and seeing that your training wheels are gone. I panicked. I needed them to keep me safe.

So, do you feel safe now?
I was raised an atheist and later discovered my God.

I'm exactly where I should be. I feel grounded.

[weltschmerz]

I feel like I can get through life just fine without the training wheels, and that makes me content. I now wonder if I ever needed them at all.

[weltschmerz]

It all seemed illogical to me.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 22:11:14 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 22:02:56 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

It all seemed illogical to me.

How I was expected to believe, did to me, too.

I ventured into different faiths and other belief systems. It still didn't make much sense.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 22:21:44 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 22:15:30 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I ventured into different faiths and other belief systems. It still didn't make much sense.

But isn't that what true faith is, believing in something without proof or it making sense?

And there is the crux of the matter. I wanted to have faith again. I wanted to be filled with the spirit of the Lord. I wanted to believe without proof. I just couldn't do it any more.

I guess my becoming an atheist is all part of God's divine plan.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

But isn't that what true faith is, believing in something without proof or it making sense

In a sense, yes. But faith also does not make something so. Which is why I'm having trouble with some people insisitng that god DOES exist. Just because they have faith or believe it to be so, doesn't mean that's the way it is.

I was raised going to church and learning the teachings of our church. I also quetioned that which I was taught by the so-called experts (parsons, priests, ministers). I still don't have the answers to convince me. I've attended services of almost all faiths, denominations and religions (not just Christian) and explored their teachings. I'm still learning - but at the same time, still no proof.

[mmhmm]

Sept 16, 2012 22:21:44 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 22:15:30 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I ventured into different faiths and other belief systems. It still didn't make much sense.

But isn't that what true faith is, believing in something without proof or it making sense?

Yes, lonewolf. In essence, that's exactly what faith is. Some people are capable of believing based on faith alone. Others, however, are not. We have to accept one another for who each of us is. It's just not possible to wave a magic wand and instill a faith in God in one who isn't capable of putting aside reality as they know it to be anymore than you are capable of the opposite. If each one of us could only reach inside ourselves for the compassion that would allow us to simply accept another's wishes for themselves, these battles over belief wouldn't happen, and wars wouldn't be fought ... people wouldn't die ... because they don't believe what someone else has decided they should believe.

MOO

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 21:59:47 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 21:52:42 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Betrayed? Not at all. There was no personal crisis. My faith had been disappearing bit by bit for quite some time, until I realized it was all gone. I tried to get it back, but like ethereal gossamer, the more I tried to grasp at it, the more it kept slipping through my fingers.

Maybe you mistrusted the faith you had, because the teachings seemed illogical to you?
I could not accept the type of faith the Bible taught. There were too many questions and nothing made sense to me.

What questions didn't make sense to you Lone?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sept 16, 2012 6:19:04 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 16, 2012 2:41:04 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

Once we start labeling God as something we have various forms and divisions of believers. Naming God or a Higher Being as the Universe can make one a Pantheist.

I believe God is who He says He is, 'The beginning and the end'. Jesus has a name, just like the rest of us. God does too. (Yaway, English spelling) The universe is part of His creation. It's not Him. It is amazing to me how far people will go to separate themselves from their creator. I know as a parent I would be broken hearted if my children separated themselves from me, denying that I was 1/2 responsible for their creation.

I also believe that Yahweh is moving throughout the world. I mean, the Hebrew texts have been translated into every language on Earth!

[Reckless Roselia]

I also believe that Yahweh is moving throughout the world.

On a hoverboard?

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 16:31:40 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

According to the Catholic faith God has no beginning nor an end. He created heaven first, the earth was last. Since we are made in His image, I can see where He made a couple of mistakes, in that He was hoping for something more than what He got. ( with humans) The Old Testament talks about Noah and the flood. When it was over, God said he would never destroy the earth again with water. It appears He admitted to a mistake in that one. I can think of a couple other things as well.

Prayer, ROSE, is a conversation with God. But, I'm not sure how you stand on God. (the subject) I'm a bit confused about this. Don't ever be afraid to talk to Him. If one searches for Him, there He will be. I can say with all confidence that He would be happy to reveal Himself to any heart searching for Him in earnest.

I am confused myself where I stand with God, Idin. I still have faith in Him but not so strong as other believers here. Maybe I am a semi or mini believer? (You can check my True Believer Syndrome thread to see my views again.

It's the feeling of using God for selfish reasons that puts me away or off prayers. I do wish sometimes and use His name hoping He'd listen but I don't know why I just feel guilty of praying and this concept is odd to me and new to my parents. They also tell me with what you say that God loves His people to pray to Him and to ask Him of things, etc. But He too gives without asking, no? Does He listen to every prayer or do they get saved in a Prayer Bank?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sept 16, 2012 8:09:05 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Sept 15, 2012 23:50:24 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Two things we know, when humans continued to label themselves the son of God, one was created.

Hmm, Hamburger, it is a stretch to say 'we know' this. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some of us like to believe it.

Also, when we seem to "go away" from God(togetherness) things seem to start really going bad.

Yes. Unfortunately, differing ideas over 'God' is one of the obstacles to togetherness.

Hey Astro. It's no stretch. Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great and countless others used to label themselves or were label by others as the son of God. This all lead up to a Jewish Virgin in Israel giving birth, around year 0? Think about it like this. Islam is supposed to be the right way for the Aberhamic religion. Moe wanted to oppose the Romans. He wouldn't have started a new religion to oppose them and kept the central tendency in there. There are two sides to every story and the truth is in between.

I meant it literally when I said go away from God. God or Gods have been around in every culture for as long as we have existed. It's literally never gone good for us when we go away from it.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sept 17, 2012 0:17:16 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

I also believe that Yahweh is moving throughout the world.

On a hoverboard?

Kinda, the energy hoverboard.. ;D

[Loopdilou]

Here's my thing about faith... if anyone else lied to me as frequently or had as many internal inconsistencies as most religions do, I sure as hell wouldn't have faith in them, so why would I put faith in the magical sky creature/s?

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 17:58:16 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Sept 16, 2012 17:03:48 GMT -5 @dom said:

Shooby,

What do you imagine Heaven is like ?

It would be a place of utter joy. No fear, terror, pain, etc. A place of unspeakable joy and beauty.

I was also taught that heaven was a place that no one can ever imagine. Very blissful and calming. God will listen to every wish and desire.

As a child I had written a list what I shall do if I enter heaven. The list mostly contained what to eat. ;D

I don't know if I'll ever find myself in heaven but I do hope so.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sept 16, 2012 8:26:02 GMT -5 @femmefatale said:

Also, when we seem to "go away" from God(togetherness) things seem to start really going bad.

So true, for me, Aham. I just wouldn't feel complete without Him.

Exaclty. God...

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Sept 16, 2012 9:46:11 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Everything in nature was created by God. (Give Him any name you wish) So yes, I would agree that all good things represent Him. He is the master scientist in my opinion.

But, I posted somewhere that my son visited God outside the gates of heaven and DS described God to us. He was - at 4 years old - perplexed about God's blue dress. In this world men do not wear dresses. He was a bit taken back. So, I'm thinking (not an absolute) if we were created in His image, then we do know what he looks like. This is not to say He can't take on any image that a person can relate to.

Just to let you know DS said he has white hair and a long beard. Maybe He's Jewish??

Great analogy ld. Makes sense to me, this is why science keeps bringing us closer to God. Also it makes sense that God has some Jewish genes, I mean, his son was Jewish after all! ;D

[Reckless Roselia]

God has Jewish Jeans?

[Reckless Roselia]

God would have to be free of all races and sex to be a fair God.

[Loopdilou]

Jewish? Or maybe Egyptian, from which Christianity took the ressurection. Or Greek, from which you get the Eucharist. Zoroastrian? Good vs Evil and your demons. Maybe Buddhism or Hinduism?

Pick an ethnicity . Abrahamic religion filched from them all.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Yet JC was Jewish. Werid huh? Is life fair Roselia?

[Loopdilou]

How is that weird? Your version of "god" was created by Jews and then some young upstart came along, changed a few rules, got kicked out of Rabbinic Judaism and had to form his own religion.

Not weird at all.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Except that's not how it went. Seek and ye shall find. Goodnight.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 16, 2012 20:19:17 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Prayer, ROSE, is a conversation with God. But, I'm not sure how you stand on God. (the subject) I'm a bit confused about this. Don't ever be afraid to talk to Him. If one searches for Him, there He will be. I can say with all confidence that He would be happy to reveal Himself to any heart searching for Him in earnest.
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Many years ago, I went through a tremendous crisis of faith. I searched and searched for him. I talked to him. I looked for him everywhere. I prayed. I invited him into my heart. You know what happened? Absolutely nothing. He wasn't happy to reveal himself to me.

Oh WELT, I'm so sorry things worked out this way for you. I don't know what happened, but there are times when we ask for something and He does answer, but the answer is no. It's no because what we think we need or want - in the end- is not good for us. Could you take some time, in hind sight, and review the situation to see if this might be the case? I see that you are very intelligent (from your posts) and educated. Using the scientific steps for a hypothesis would be right up your alley. Good luck.

[trevorw2539]

Sept 15, 2012 8:58:22 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

Sept 15, 2012 3:03:10 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

I wonder who gets the credit of inventing the notion of hell & heaven, in other words who first conveyed the message of it. Was it the first man on earth?

The One who created both, the heavens and the earth is who I believe established hell too.

Try 'The epic of Gilgamesh', 'the descent of Innana to the underworld', 'the descent of Ishtar'.

[dom]

God would have to be free of all races and sex to be a fair God.

Roselia,

If you know that. Why then are most religions constantly at each others throats ?