Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell

[weltschmerz]

On a serious note, I don't understand the need to immerse Ganesh in the River Ganges to purify it. It's called Ganesh Visarjan. Surely God needs no bath.
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Is it to purify him? It's my understanding that the original Ganesha statues were made of clay. The were immersed into the river so the clay would dissolve, signifying the fleeting transcience of life. Now the statues are mass-produced and do not dissolve, but the dunking tradition continues.

[Reckless Roselia]

The Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]

"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]

The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]

The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita.

Consider the following verse from the Gita:

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."
[Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

The following verses from the Yajurveda echo a similar concept of God:

"na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."
[Yajurveda 40:9]

Sambhuti means created things.

The Yajurveda contains the following prayer:
"Lead us to the good path and remove the sin that makes us stray and wander."
[Yajurveda 40:16]


The Atharvaveda praises God in Book 20, hymn 58 and verse 3:

"Dev maha osi"
"God is verily great"
[Atharvaveda 20:58:3]

The Rigveda states in Book 1, hymn 164 and verse 46:
"Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names."
[Rigveda 1:164:46]

"Ma cid anyad vi sansata sakhayo ma rishanyata"
"O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone."
[Rigveda 8:1:1]

"Devasya samituk parishtutih"
"Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator."
[Rigveda 5:1:81]

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 14:42:48 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

On a serious note, I don't understand the need to immerse Ganesh in the River Ganges to purify it. It's called Ganesh Visarjan. Surely God needs no bath.
----------------
Is it to purify him? It's my understanding that the original Ganesha statues were made of clay. The were immersed into the river so the clay would dissolve, signifying the fleeting transcience of life. Now the statues are mass-produced and do not dissolve, but the dunking tradition continues.

I have watched few Indian serials and dramas to understand the Visarjan is done to purify their God.

I am trying to find a source reliable but have come across this -

For many householders, the morning worship commences with Ganesha being given a ritual bath (recommended for waterproof stone idols). This can be as simple as pouring a little water over the idol, or more elaborately, bathing it successively in turmeric infused water, milk and rosewater. A dot of sandalwood paste and kum-kum (red powder) is then applied on his forehead.

www.ganeshblog.com/practice-prayers/

But then again it maybe a ritual or a tradition to follow Parvati's footsteps -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythological_anecdotes_of_Ganesha

[Deleted]

"I have someone who says he's put me on ignore yet commenting on another poster's post to me. Funny, is it not or kinda trollish? An act of cowardice maybe. [image]

I see no logic with putting someone on IGNORE and then not completely ignoring their presence and having to comment on someone else's post to them. That too it being nasty in content - hoping to invoke that ignored poster. "

Don't know who you are talking about but this seems to be the very definition of "trollishness". So obviously the thread is going to deteriorate into pettiness. Have a nice day.

[Deleted]

" I also find it humourous how some can comment on others' post/s with nothing but nastiness yet have no guts at all to post to them posters directly. In other words I have no respect for silly sniping from the sidelines or trolling. I believe one poster has done that here to me. "

Um, not sure who that refers to either and again, that is the defintion of 'trolling" in my opinion. If you are refering to me, the mods can go back to the thread and see that YOU began banter with me about "kicking ass" or whatever. I am hear discussing my beliefs and was having a lovely conversation and exchange of ideas with the others.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Well, the thread was back on topic until just a few moments ago.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 14:59:20 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Well, the thread was back on topic until just a few moments ago.

;D

[Reckless Roselia]

In all honesty I am still waiting for God's mistresses to be discussed but hey ho.

[Deleted]

I no longer wish to engage in any discussion with you, thanks.

[Deleted]

BTW, where is lonewolf? I would like to get back on point.

[Deleted]

I don't know. We were having a very nice discussion. So, do you think there is a "beginning" to time? Or a beginning point? What are your thoughts on that Lone?

[weltschmerz]

Every year Clay statues of Lord Ganesha are immersed into the water bodies or in sea.

Gradually the clay dissolves into water. Ganesh's image disappears. This ritual is designed by our ancestors to draw attention to the 'ephemeral nature of life and worldly things'.Showing that Nothing in this mortal world lasts forever.
As such asking us to live and celebrate Life,even in the Death!

by
Prof.Dr.Arun Raghuwanshi
Internatioanl Yoga Master
Bhopal(M.P.),INDIA

Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_ganesh_visarjan_done#ixzz26fJRec6M


Rose, this makes sense to me. Dunking plaster of Paris statues covered with lead paint is apparently one of the things wreaking havoc in the Ganges.

[Deleted]

What do you consider to a god then? For me, God cannot or could not be mortal. How would He then be God? Do you subscribe to beings with limited powers ? If God has any limitations whatsoever, then how could he be God?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Then everyone - stick to the topic, please - and not drag up what someone said to someone else.

The rules of this sub-board are simple - and there are only 2 of them. Anyone who can't follow those rules may find themselves barred from posting here. Thissis the second time in less than 24 hrs I've posted this link. PLEASE review it again (if you haven't already).

SL ~ Mod

notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&thread=20583

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 15:09:41 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

I don't understand the idea of Hindu Gods. I've always considered gods like this as mortal creations, ones that people simply looked up to, nothing like the energy force/god I know.

The scriptures read something else, Lone.

Am I right or wrong to find similarities in the Biblical God with the Hindu one?

Don't worry about the thread going downhill, religious threads usually do deteriorate but then get back on track.

[Deleted]

Well, in order for me to understand my concept of God, i have to go back to the very point of beginning. Thinking on that has helped me to develop my beliefs.

[Deleted]

Agreed.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 15:10:38 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Every year Clay statues of Lord Ganesha are immersed into the water bodies or in sea.

Gradually the clay dissolves into water. Ganesh's image disappears. This ritual is designed by our ancestors to draw attention to the 'ephemeral nature of life and worldly things'.Showing that Nothing in this mortal world lasts forever.
As such asking us to live and celebrate Life,even in the Death!

by
Prof.Dr.Arun Raghuwanshi
Internatioanl Yoga Master
Bhopal(M.P.),INDIA

Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_ganesh_visarjan_done#ixzz26fJRec6M


Rose, this makes sense to me. Dunking plaster of Paris statues covered with lead paint is apparently one of the things wreaking havoc in the Ganges.

I see, Weltz and thank you for the link.

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 15:14:29 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 16, 2012 15:12:46 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Well, in order for me to understand my concept of God, i have to go back to the very point of beginning. Thinking on that has helped me to develop my beliefs.

So, what have you come up with?

That God is Eternal. Always was, is and will be. And, as the Eternal being created us, the heavens, the Universe and all that is and will be and here we are.

[Deleted]

So, you do ascribe to an omnipotent, omniprescent, all powerful God?

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

That God is Eternal. Always was, is and will be. And, as the Eternal being created us, the heavens, the Universe and all that is and will be and here we are.

As are all gods for those who believe in them - there are many religions in this world besides the Chrsitian one - each with their own belief system - what makes "your" god more real or all-powerful than theirs?

[weltschmerz]

To just say we exist "just because" is pretty odd. From WHERE did the material building blocks come from to create the "right conditions" for our existence. You have to start from somewhere and all roads can only lead back to a predeceding God. There has to a beginning point where 2 atoms came into existence. From whence did they come? There has to be something outside of creation to have created creation. The chemist is 'outside" the lab directing the chemicals. And, if that is the case, to just assume the master Chemist or Creator rendered our existence but then just walked away like a derelict and has no interest in the end result is another notion that simply does not make sense to me.
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You just said there has to be a beginning point, so how can God be eternal? From whence did he come?

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 15:26:17 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

That God is Eternal. Always was, is and will be. And, as the Eternal being created us, the heavens, the Universe and all that is and will be and here we are.

As are all gods for those who believe in them - there are many religions in this world besides the Chrsitian one - each with their own belief system - what makes "your" god more real or all-powerful than theirs?

I am expounding on the definition of what constitutes "God" versus "a god". I have said nothing about a Christian God or "my God" being "more real or all powerful than theirs". Please do not put words in my mouth.

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 15:26:43 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

To just say we exist "just because" is pretty odd. From WHERE did the material building blocks come from to create the "right conditions" for our existence. You have to start from somewhere and all roads can only lead back to a predeceding God. There has to a beginning point where 2 atoms came into existence. From whence did they come? There has to be something outside of creation to have created creation. The chemist is 'outside" the lab directing the chemicals. And, if that is the case, to just assume the master Chemist or Creator rendered our existence but then just walked away like a derelict and has no interest in the end result is another notion that simply does not make sense to me.
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You just said there has to be a beginning point, so how can God be eternal? From whence did he come?

I answered that and gave you MY belief. God is eternal. He didn't "come" from anything. He has no beginning and no end. If you don't ascribe to that, fine. That is what i believe and am trying to explain.

[dom]

Dom, hello, welcome. It is fair enough if you can't see it but I feel it worth pointing out that harmony need not be created, only restored.

Hello again ISA and thank you for the welcome.

When you say i cant see it. Are you talking about the ethnogenic induced condition, which gives the partaker a sense of deep interconnectedness to the biosphere and universe ?
If so, is this a true picture of interconnectedness or merely the ethnogenics' disruption of the human brain cells ?
To a certain degree, i agree there maybe interconnectedness but i view it a more basic level. Wether this extends to a deeper level is up for debate. Also the mystery of mind altering substances need a lot more research before stating truths or non truths.

[Deleted]

Hi Dom! Carry on! I gotta run.

[dom]

As to Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell i prefer Heaven.


Hi Shooby doo dah.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I am expounding on the definition of what constitutes "God" versus "a god".

There's where it goes wrong. Isn't "God" just "a god?" An idea that was created by humans to believe in?

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 15:32:25 GMT -5 @dom said:

When you say i cant see it. Are you talking about the ethnogenic induced condition, which gives the partaker a sense of deep interconnectedness to the biosphere and universe ?

No, when I said "fair enough if you can't see it", I was responding to your "I somehow can never see that happening".

My comment wasn't anything to do with entheogens, no.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 16, 2012 14:07:34 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Not at all - "god" as some are claiming the ultimte god to be, is the one that those who say they are Christians, is the only true god - yet that "god" has only been brought into the human mind in the last two centuries. There were many"gods" before that one - which were revered and believed to be the all-powerful force of our existence.

What about Buddhism or Hinduism?

To say the Christian god is the only god or belief we should follow, and to condemn or criticize those who don't, goes against what they "claim" to believe. That's call hypocracy.

No one, that I can see, is saying this. We are throwing our thoughts out there to engage in an adult - and most interesting - conversation.