Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

You can debate both sides of the subject without the personal digs at someone for their views - just because they may be different than what you believe (or not).

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 10:41:54 GMT -5 @shooby said:

No, i was referring to the point you are making that you don't "share the belief of being created in God's image". I don't think anyone is asking you.
As for "slipping" or whatever, I am perfectly capable of understanding what i am responding to and why. Much better to worry about your own slippage than someone else's. But thanks for thinking of me.

I don't think I need a pass here to share my beliefs and opinions. It's a discussion board so let's deal with it. I also find it humourous how some can comment on others' post/s with nothing but nastiness yet have no guts at all to post to them posters directly. In other words I have no respect for silly sniping from the sidelines or trolling. I believe one poster has done that here to me.

My post was a reply to Idin and not you. I truly apologise for bringing in a comment here which you made to me on my 'dear diary' thread. I had no idea it'll create a little chaos - even when I complimented you for your feisty style in one post - it didn't gel with you. I wonder why.

Anyway, have a nice day.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 11:11:58 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

You can debate both sides of the subject without the personal digs at someone for their views - just because they may be different than what you believe (or not).

[femmefatale]

Sept 16, 2012 11:11:58 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

You can debate both sides of the subject without the personal digs at someone for their views - just because they may be different than what you believe (or not).

Who was taking digs?

I didn't see any name calling or "digs"

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 11:11:58 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

You can debate both sides of the subject without the personal digs at someone for their views - just because they may be different than what you believe (or not).

Doesn't look as though there have been any personal digs against posters for their views... although, granted, I do have one poster on ignore so perhaps that is the culprit you are referring to.

Let's keep it clean now, ladies... ;D break when I tellz ya and no biting in the clinches...

[weltschmerz]

To just say we exist "just because" is pretty odd. From WHERE did the material building blocks come from to create the "right conditions" for our existence. You have to start from somewhere and all roads can only lead back to a predeceding God. There has to a beginning point where 2 atoms came into existence. From whence did they come? There has to be something outside of creation to have created creation. The chemist is 'outside" the lab directing the chemicals. And, if that is the case, to just assume the master Chemist or Creator rendered our existence but then just walked away like a derelict and has no interest in the end result is another notion that simply does not make sense to me.
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Using your very own logic, if there has to be a beginning point, then who greated the Master Chemist?

[weltschmerz]

If Jeffery Dahmer and Mother Theresa are all the same then you have no moral imperatives to live by. Nor, can you call on others to live any other way. You can no more condemn violence than you can praise goodness. If it is all for naught, we are just floating blobs, then there is absolutely no reason why i should not go next door and take everything by neighbor has, by force, if necessary.
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People who only do the right thing because they want to score points with a heavenly father scare the crap out of me. I know many, many atheists, and they're decent people, because it's the right thing to do, not because they're afraid of divine punishment. They live by the Golden Rule and treat people the way they would like to be treated. It's not the fear of God that's stopping them from raping, stealing and killing. It's their innate goodness.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 11:25:31 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Sept 16, 2012 11:11:58 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

You can debate both sides of the subject without the personal digs at someone for their views - just because they may be different than what you believe (or not).

Doesn't look as though there have been any personal digs against posters for their views... although, granted, I do have one poster on ignore so perhaps that is the culprit you are referring to.

Let's keep it clean now, ladies... ;D break when I tellz ya and no biting in the clinches...

I have someone who says he's put me on ignore yet commenting on another poster's post to me. Funny, is it not or kinda trollish? An act of cowardice maybe.

I see no logic with putting someone on IGNORE and then not completely ignoring their presence and having to comment on someone else's post to them. That too it being nasty in content - hoping to invoke that ignored poster.

As for telling the ladies to keep it clean, you may wanna keep it clean yourself.

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 11:31:00 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Using your very own logic, if there has to be a beginning point, then who created the Master Chemist?

It's turtles all the way down.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 12:09:05 GMT -5 @devianity said:

Sept 16, 2012 11:31:00 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Using your very own logic, if there has to be a beginning point, then who created the Master Chemist?

It's turtles all the way down.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

Yup!

[weltschmerz]

However, getting back to my other point...
If I'm dealing with someone who operates out of feelings of fear and divine justice, rather than empathy and compassion, then I'm dealing with a sociopath. I'd rather deal with paranoid schizophrenics than sociopaths, because they can still be reached. Sociopaths are broken people who are dead inside.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 12:19:01 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

However, getting back to my other point...
If I'm dealing with someone who operates out of feelings of fear and divine justice, rather than empathy and compassion, then I'm dealing with a sociopath. I'd rather deal with paranoid schizophrenics than sociopaths, because they can still be reached. Sociopaths are broken people who are dead inside.

My Atheist friend has told me recently that I am perplexed by my God's schizophrenic nature. Perhaps he's right. I have not taken his comment as an insult or personal and he's there to listen to my side of battling few thoughts. He says that I fear what if my God was real and the punishment I may face. I dunno if this makes me a coward in his eyes. I hope not. Because we both know I am lying to myself.

I agree with what you say about sociopaths.

[weltschmerz]

My Atheist friend has told me recently that I am perplexed by my God's schizophrenic nature. Perhaps he's right. I have not taken his comment as an insult or personal and he's there to listen to my side of battling few thoughts. He says that I fear what if my God was real and the punishment I may face. I dunno if this makes me a coward in his eyes. I hope not. Because we both know I am lying to myself.
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Awww, sweetie, we all follow our own paths to arrive at our own destinations. Nothing wrong with examining and questioning your beliefs, rather than following them blindly.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Believing God was here first, and created us is thinking with a closed mind. How do you explain the scientific proof that life (and humans) have been around for millions of years yet this God (as you know him) has only been around for the last couple of thousand? He is a faith - or belief - not a person.

The Ancient Egyptians created one of the most geometrically perfect wonders of the world - and worshiped Isis, Ra (and cats) among other things. The Ancient Greeks created world wonders as well - and worshiped many "gods"(Zeus, Apollo, Hera, etc) - and elements - the sun, earth, fire ...

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2012 12:40:15 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My Atheist friend has told me recently that I am perplexed by my God's schizophrenic nature. Perhaps he's right. I have not taken his comment as an insult or personal and he's there to listen to my side of battling few thoughts. He says that I fear what if my God was real and the punishment I may face. I dunno if this makes me a coward in his eyes. I hope not. Because we both know I am lying to myself.
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Awww, sweetie, we all follow our own paths to arrive at our own destinations. Nothing wrong with examining and questioning your beliefs, rather than following them blindly.

An inquisitive mind is a sign of intelligence.

[Sum Dum Gai]

If Jeffery Dahmer and Mother Theresa are all the same then you have no moral imperatives to live by. Nor, can you call on others to live any other way. You can no more condemn violence than you can praise goodness. If it is all for naught, we are just floating blobs, then there is absolutely no reason why i should not go next door and take everything by neighbor has, by force, if necessary.

I disagree. You have a moral imperative not to do harm to another because their life is just as fleeting as yours, and already full of enough challenges.

However, there are certain things which organized religion considers a sin that I have no problem with. Take gluttony. You aren't hurting anybody else on their journey, so do what you like.

I would actually argue the opposite way. If you believe in a heaven and hell, then killing a child shouldn't be a crime. They're innocent, and after they die will go to heaven and live in perfect peace and contentment. It's paradise. So who cares if I end their mortal suffering? I could almost say I'm doing them a favor. Same thing for killing a righteous adult. If somebody is evil and god has already damned them to an eternity of suffering in hell, then surely he wouldn't mind if I offed the bastard and got him to his just desserts a little faster. There's really no reason to respect life, which is fleeting and short, if you believe there's a scorekeeper up there doling out eternal rewards after you die.

[Sum Dum Gai]

From WHERE did the material building blocks come from to create the "right conditions" for our existence. You have to start from somewhere and all roads can only lead back to a predeceding God.

By that same logic, at one point there was nothing and god created himself from it. That doesn't really make sense. So there would have to be a god that created god, who created everything else. Who created the god who created god? Who created that one? Who created that one? Who created that one? Etc., etc., etc. Believing that at one point there was nothing and god created himself, is just as illogical to our understanding as the universe coming into being without a higher power.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 12:40:15 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My Atheist friend has told me recently that I am perplexed by my God's schizophrenic nature. Perhaps he's right. I have not taken his comment as an insult or personal and he's there to listen to my side of battling few thoughts. He says that I fear what if my God was real and the punishment I may face. I dunno if this makes me a coward in his eyes. I hope not. Because we both know I am lying to myself.
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Awww, sweetie, we all follow our own paths to arrive at our own destinations. Nothing wrong with examining and questioning your beliefs, rather than following them blindly.

Thanks, Weltz.

I do end up with a mild headache if I take many things in to consideration. I am just wondering how strong my faith actually is - it has to be strong somewhat if after finding many contradictions in the Holy Scriptures, I cannot pull out of religion. Do I fear the consequences of me leaving my religion, then maybe. I really don't know on what to settle with but I want it to be the truth. I have leaned towards being agnostic but believer nevertheless.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 12:52:50 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Believing God was here first, and created us is thinking with a closed mind. How do you explain the scientific proof that life (and humans) have been around for millions of years yet this God (as you know him) has only been around for the last couple of thousand? He is a faith - or belief - not a person.

The Ancient Egyptians created one of the most geometrically perfect wonders of the world - and worshiped Isis, Ra (and cats) among other things. The Ancient Greeks created world wonders as well - and worshiped many "gods"(Zeus, Apollo, Hera, etc) - and elements - the sun, earth, fire ...

We can put that down to human ignorance and arrogance, Lassie.

I am slightly open minded for a believer. ;D

[mrsdutt]

Sept 16, 2012 11:05:14 GMT -5 @femmefatale said:

How can you debate a subject, without debating each other's views?

FEMME: The thought I had was not so much debating, but sharing information. We all get a little bit smarter and open our minds to understanding others' views. Not necessarily defending our own.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 16, 2012 11:37:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

If Jeffery Dahmer and Mother Theresa are all the same then you have no moral imperatives to live by. Nor, can you call on others to live any other way. You can no more condemn violence than you can praise goodness. If it is all for naught, we are just floating blobs, then there is absolutely no reason why i should not go next door and take everything by neighbor has, by force, if necessary.
---------------
People who only do the right thing because they want to score points with a heavenly father scare the crap out of me. I know many, many atheists, and they're decent people, because it's the right thing to do, not because they're afraid of divine punishment. They live by the Golden Rule and treat people the way they would like to be treated. It's not the fear of God that's stopping them from raping, stealing and killing. It's their innate goodness.

I will grant you there are people that fall into your description, but many people who love God behave because of the LOVE they have for Him. An additional point is not everyone has the same mental ability. There are multitudes of people who follow because they are unaware of how to lead.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 16, 2012 12:52:50 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Believing God was here first, and created us is thinking with a closed mind. How do you explain the scientific proof that life (and humans) have been around for millions of years yet this God (as you know him) has only been around for the last couple of thousand? He is a faith - or belief - not a person.

The Ancient Egyptians created one of the most geometrically perfect wonders of the world - and worshiped Isis, Ra (and cats) among other things. The Ancient Greeks created world wonders as well - and worshiped many "gods"(Zeus, Apollo, Hera, etc) - and elements - the sun, earth, fire ...

LASSIE: You may be confusing Jesus with God.

[weltschmerz]

Sept 16, 2012 13:49:41 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 16, 2012 11:37:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

If Jeffery Dahmer and Mother Theresa are all the same then you have no moral imperatives to live by. Nor, can you call on others to live any other way. You can no more condemn violence than you can praise goodness. If it is all for naught, we are just floating blobs, then there is absolutely no reason why i should not go next door and take everything by neighbor has, by force, if necessary.
---------------
People who only do the right thing because they want to score points with a heavenly father scare the crap out of me. I know many, many atheists, and they're decent people, because it's the right thing to do, not because they're afraid of divine punishment. They live by the Golden Rule and treat people the way they would like to be treated. It's not the fear of God that's stopping them from raping, stealing and killing. It's their innate goodness.

I will grant you there are people that fall into your description, but many people who love God behave because of the LOVE they have for Him. An additional point is not everyone has the same mental ability. There are multitudes of people who follow because they are unaware of how to lead.

I was addressing the issue of "moral imperatives to live by." Many people operate strictly out of compassion and empathy, and as far as I am concerned, that's all you really need. Yes, there a very good reasons not to go by Shooby's example of going to your neighbours and taking everything they have by force if necessary. Same for rape and killing. A person with a healthy conscience wouldn't do these things whether they believe in God or not.

[weltschmerz]

I HAVE come across people who have said that their fear of God and the hereafter is the only thing that's stopping them from behaving badly. That's pretty fucked up.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Not at all - "god" as some are claiming the ultimte god to be, is the one that those who say they are Christians, is the only true god - yet that "god" has only been brought into the human mind in the last two centuries. There were many"gods" before that one - which were revered and believed to be the all-powerful force of our existence.

What about Buddhism or Hinduism?

To say the Christian god is the only god or belief we should follow, and to condemn or criticize those who don't, goes against what they "claim" to believe. That's call hypocracy.

[mrsdutt]

Yes it is!

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 14:05:30 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I HAVE come across people who have said that their fear of God and the hereafter is the only thing that's stopping them from behaving badly. That's pretty fucked up.

It's the concept of Heaven and Hell that makes Believers in God what they are but almost.

I've never been on my best behaviour in desire for reward in being in heaven or in fear of hell's punishment. I may have been taught to do so but with time, this concept had left my mind.

This should be put on the prayers thread but I have felt that I'm using God whenever I have prayed or called out to Him at times of need. It's weird but that feeling has existed since some time now and it's this feeling that has kinda made me reduce in asking prayers for myself from Him.

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 14:07:34 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Not at all - "god" as some are claiming the ultimte god to be, is the one that those who say they are Christians, is the only true god - yet that "god" has only been brought into the human mind in the last two centuries. There were many"gods" before that one - which were revered and believed to be the all-powerful force of our existence.

What about Buddhism or Hinduism?

To say the Christian god is the only god or belief we should follow, and to condemn or criticize those who don't, goes against what they "claim" to believe. That's call hypocracy.

The Hindu God is One but has many forms according to the Hindu scriptures. I shall find the verse again. I sometimes wonder if this Hindu God is the Christian God too.

My favourite Hindu God has to be Baby Ganesh.

[weltschmerz]

My favourite Hindu God has to be Baby Ganesh.
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Does the Baby Ganesh always have a rat at his feet, or is that just the adult Ganesh?

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 16, 2012 14:24:51 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My favourite Hindu God has to be Baby Ganesh.
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Does the Baby Ganesh always have a rat at his feet, or is that just the adult Ganesh?

This Baby Ganesh is a student and has its rat holding the pencil for Him. ;D



On a serious note, I don't understand the need to immerse Ganesh in the River Ganges to purify it. It's called Ganesh Visarjan. Surely God needs no bath.