Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell

[weltschmerz]

Sept 17, 2012 10:18:44 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

So what you're saying is that God decided that faith wasn't good for me? It isn't what I needed or wanted, so the answer was "no"?

Maybe the type of faith you were seeking wasn't what you needed or was good for you?

I just wanted to believe again. It had nothing to do with "type" of faith.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2012 10:20:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

If you're implying that God is a Jew then does that mean only the Jews will enter the Heaven?
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Actually, the Jewish faith posits that anyone can get into heaven. You don't have to be Jewish.

L'Shanah Tovah Tikatevu

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2012 10:15:52 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I will share what I believe, but not debate whether I believe in the God I worship

Exactly - that's what the God Loving People thread is for - those who already believe and want to share their beliefs with each other.

This thread is for questioning religion not for trying to convert people or preach.

Exit stage left..

[weltschmerz]

Sept 17, 2012 10:03:02 GMT -5 @femmefatale said:

Sept 17, 2012 9:56:35 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

So do you have anything valid to offer as proof or evidence? I'll await your answer.

Do you have any proof that there isn't a God? I'll await yours as well. And please don't say it is because you haven't seen, or touched or talked to Him. We've all heard that one a million times, too, from non-believers.

How on earth do you expect anyone to prove a negative, Femme? If I asked you to prove that Bigfoot, absolutely, positively DOES NOT EXIST, where would you even begin?

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 17, 2012 10:20:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

If you're implying that God is a Jew then does that mean only the Jews will enter the Heaven?
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Actually, the Jewish faith posits that anyone can get into heaven. You don't have to be Jewish.

God seems quite lenient there, no? I would have thought that you'd need a certificate or some form of requirements to be of that faith to enter heaven. Wow, I've learnt something new today. I actually don't know much on the Jewish religion but thank you, Weltz.

[swamp]

You can't prove a negative.

[weltschmerz]

God seems quite lenient there, no? I would have thought that you'd need a certificate or some form of requirements to be of that faith to enter heaven.
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Yes, it is lenient in that respect. You just have to be a good person.

[Deleted]

My favorite argument proving that God doesn't exist:

Excerpt from The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

The Babel fish is small yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier, but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the unconscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them.

The practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is whte and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

[weltschmerz]

It seems to me that if what you had originally believed in HAD been the real deal, you would have never come to have doubted it.
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I believed in Christianity, lone. I guess it wasn't the real deal.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2012 9:40:08 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Odd that the ones who claim to be strong believers are here high-fiving each other and ingoring what those who question religion or whether there is a god are saying. There already is a God Loving People thread for expressing their beliefs - if they have proof or evidence to present, I'd like to hear it, but so far they haven't provided anything for the other side to think about or consider.

'Proof', Lassie, is a rather pointless request, for no end of evidence will prove anything to you that you are not open already to believing.

'Evidence' is a more appropriate request, though still quite pointless as the validity of evidence is qualified in accordance with pre-existing beliefs.

Faith is at the heart of the matter. I imagine that under the light of faith, everything from a rainbow to childbirth is evidence sufficiently compelling to be construed as proof of God‘s existence. It might not seem so to you or I, but that would be because we are missing the fundamental ingredient - faith.

Sept 17, 2012 10:15:52 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I will share what I believe, but not debate whether I believe in the God I worship

Exactly - that's what the God Loving People thread is for - those who already believe and want to share their beliefs with each other.

This thread is for questioning religion not for trying to convert people or preach.

No, this thread is for expressing beliefs pertaining to Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. It evolved, quite naturally, into a more general discussion of afterlife beliefs.

Yesterday your apparent raison d'être was to insist that people discuss the subject rather than each other's beliefs… you even started waving your little Mod stick around to enforce that decree… however, today you are complaining that people are simply expressing their beliefs rather than discussing them.

It would be best if we could have some kind of consistency here, so perhaps you might make your mind up and let us know whether we are allowed to express beliefs, and whether we are allowed to discuss those beliefs, once expressed.

Much obliged.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Sept 16, 2012 14:05:30 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I HAVE come across people who have said that their fear of God and the hereafter is the only thing that's stopping them from behaving badly. That's pretty fucked up.

So have I. And I agree. It's totally messed up.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Yesterday your apparent raison d'être was to insist that people discuss the subject rather than each other's beliefs…

I was here yesterday to remind people of the rules of this sub-board when a few started taking personal jabs at each other or ganging up on someone whose opinions differed from theirs. They were clearly espousing their belief in the existence a god - and ridiculing those who questioned it - and would not provide anything for the other side to ponder when asked. And still haven't.

[mrsdutt]

LOOP said: Yes, and yet you (having chosen to use the word "God") have based your notion of this entity on a religious structure. The two may not be identical, but the two go hand in hand.

Not really. If you remove all social 'noise' I believe it's possible to hear the voice of 'God'.

But, 'To each his own', said the old lady, as she kissed the cow.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 9:40:08 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Odd that the ones who claim to be strong believers are here high-fiving each other and ingoring what those who question religion or whether there is a god are saying. There already is a God Loving People thread for expressing their beliefs - if they have proof or evidence to present, I'd like to hear it, but so far they haven't provided anything for the other side to think about or consider.

You have ignored any of my inquiries. It's OK with me, though. It's a free country.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 9:46:54 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

Sept 17, 2012 9:40:08 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

Odd that the ones who claim to be strong believers are here high-fiving each other and ingoring what those who question religion or whether there is a god are saying. There already is a God Loving People thread for expressing their beliefs - if they have proof or evidence to present, I'd like to hear it, but so far they haven't provided anything for the other side to think about or consider.

ROSE: Have I not addressed your every comment where I felt I had an appropriate response? Now I'm confused.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 9:56:35 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

So do you have anything valid to offer as proof or evidence? I'll await your answer.

I'm not asking you for proof of your thoughts. Nor am I stamping my foot demanding that someone answer me.

God doesn't need to prove Himself. Neither do I need to prove anything to you. It is what it is and each of us are what we are. We have free will and use it. You have a choice and I respect that choice. I don't have an inkling to change you or anyone else. We should all be able to voice our thoughts and not get snarked at because of it.

You are in a position of responsibility on this board, yet it's your words that are stirring the pot. It makes me wonder why you would choose to moderate this type of discussion.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 9:57:50 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

Religion has been used as the rod to measure success.. Sizing one believer's success against another is unwise since we as (believer's) are supposedly, one..

The Latin word (religio-religare) from which the English word "religion" is derived means "to bind up."

Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God. It's like any relationship.. Each one is walked out differently.. No one person's standard fits every relationship. Grace, conforms the believer's standards according to the liberty God grants, allowing every believer to walk out their own salvation. One families' standard may be a once a week family outing whereas the next (believer or non believer's) family standard might be, a once a month outing.. Both are right and should not impose their standards on the other.

There are absolutes within any relationship to remain in the best kind of relationship agreed upon, such as: Coming together as a family. Dinner time, play time, vacation time, quiet time etc.. Giving of family members to the other in all sorts of ways to help make the home run smoothly or at least smoother (we do know every family has all sorts of challenges).. Families encourage and provoke one another to excel in life in every way..

In other words, all that make up your home standard is a relationship, not a religion, though your standards are practiced religiously.. In a home with children, we sure hope our children follow the standard we, the parent(s) have set before them, religiously..

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 17, 2012 12:33:59 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 17, 2012 9:46:54 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

ROSE: Have I not addressed your every comment where I felt I had an appropriate response? Now I'm confused.

Hey Idin, you've sincerely answered my posts' questions but few posters haven't been taking part in the discussion or debate but have been posting or sniping from the sidelines - I don't know which fits best. Just an observation. It also seems two camps are made here - believers and disbelievers - expected really. That quoted comment of Lassie's I believe is directed to few believers and not all - let's not forget I too am a believer and I have failed to offer evidence for my God.

Actually I once posted what I thought was evidence and some disbelieving friends only mocked me then. I won't go through it again.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 10:14:49 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

Hello Idin,

Thank you for your reply. It's a nice read and I do respect your beliefs because I've been taught the same re: the prayer bank. I've nothing to comeback with.

[/b]

What??? A female with no words??? You're a slipping lady! ;D

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I was merely asking for civility - since some of those who actively post about their belief on the God Loving People thread showed up en-masse to ridicule or criticize those who question their beliefs (or lack thereof).

[Reckless Roselia]

Sept 17, 2012 12:49:00 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Sept 17, 2012 10:14:49 GMT -5 Reckless Roselia said:

Hello Idin,

Thank you for your reply. It's a nice read and I do respect your beliefs because I've been taught the same re: the prayer bank. I've nothing to comeback with.

[/b]

What??? A female with no words??? You're a slipping lady! ;D[/quote]

lol, I am a woman of hardcore action.

Take it easy.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 10:16:09 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Sept 17, 2012 5:20:48 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

Oh WELT, I'm so sorry things worked out this way for you. I don't know what happened, but there are times when we ask for something and He does answer, but the answer is no. It's no because what we think we need or want - in the end- is not good for us. Could you take some time, in hind sight, and review the situation to see if this might be the case? I see that you are very intelligent (from your posts) and educated. Using the scientific steps for a hypothesis would be right up your alley. Good luck.

So what you're saying is that God decided that faith wasn't good for me? It isn't what I needed or wanted, so the answer was "no"?

Absolutely not. Do any of my posts suggest I think that way? Geez Louise. Have a nice day.

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 12:50:34 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

I was merely asking for civility - since some of those who actively post about their belief on the God Loving People thread showed up en-masse to ridicule or criticize those who question their beliefs (or lack thereof).

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way. I for one am enthralled with the various beliefs. It's educational and expands my understanding in a way I didn't realize was available to me.

[Loopdilou]

Sept 17, 2012 9:57:50 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

Religion has been used as the rod to measure success.. Sizing one believer's success against another is unwise since we as (believer's) are supposedly, one..

The Latin word (religio-religare) from which the English word "religion" is derived means "to bind up."

Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship with God. It's like any relationship.. Each one is walked out differently.. No one person's standard fits every relationship. Grace, conforms the believer's standards according to the liberty God grants, allowing every believer to walk out their own salvation. One families' standard may be a once a week family outing whereas the next (believer or non believer's) family standard might be, a once a month outing.. Both are right and should not impose their standards on the other.

I'm sorry. You know someone is delusional when they say Christianity is not a Religion.

YOUR "GOD" is based on Christianity's idea of "GOD" - not Hinduism, or Roman, or Voudon, or any other.. it is based on the Abrahamic religion of Christianity (now a collection of religions that recognize Christ as the son of God). Every time you say "God" instead of "Allah" or "Thor" or "Kali" you reaffirm your faith in an Abrahamic religion. Most of you here have expressed believing in a loving god, which specifically invokes Christianity (as opposed to Judaism). So, please, tell me again how you aren't Religious

[Loopdilou]

Sept 17, 2012 12:27:21 GMT -5 mrsdutt said:

LOOP said: Yes, and yet you (having chosen to use the word "God") have based your notion of this entity on a religious structure. The two may not be identical, but the two go hand in hand.

Not really. If you remove all social 'noise' I believe it's possible to hear the voice of 'God'.

But, 'To each his own', said the old lady, as she kissed the cow.

Except that you inject the social "noise" (your quotes) into every conversation you have about "God," even referring to "God" in the masculine and calling your concept "Himself," all of these are modalities of Christianity.

So again, your "faith" boils down to believing in something that lies a lot and is full of logical inconsistencies. Just sayin'.

[Green Eyed Lady]

First there has to be proof that this "God" even exists. Maybe that's what some are seeking. Don't say "look around you". That is not proof enough. And thinking that "he" is responsible for all existence is a closed-minded way of thinking.

Hmm. "Look around you" is more than enough proof for me. I can certainly understand if that isn't enough proof for you, but you can't make a blanket statement saying "That is not proof enough." Well? I suppose you can but it wouldn't be true.

And by the way? Calling someone who believes a certain way "closed minded" isn't very civil.

[Green Eyed Lady]

In answer to your OP, ldut, I don't believe in the burning fires of hell. I believe that if you aren't in the arms of the Lord after you die, there is just nothingness. That is Hell to me.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2012 13:25:08 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

First there has to be proof that this "God" even exists. Maybe that's what some are seeking. Don't say "look around you". That is not proof enough. And thinking that "he" is responsible for all existence is a closed-minded way of thinking.

Hmm. "Look around you" is more than enough proof for me. I can certainly understand if that isn't enough proof for you, but you can't make a blanket statement saying "That is not proof enough." Well? I suppose you can but it wouldn't be true.

And by the way? Calling someone who believes a certain way "closed minded" isn't very civil.

I think the term closed minded is accurate to a point. In order to have your faith you must not entertain or embrace other ways so yes, to me that would be closed minded.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

Maybe Earth is the proverbial Hell, and we're all here because of some sin we committed in a previous life - and in order to be returned to "heaven" we have to prove ourselves here first by our actions.

Something else for you to ponder...

[mrsdutt]

Sept 17, 2012 13:29:27 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

In answer to your OP, ldut, I don't believe in the burning fires of hell. I believe that if you aren't in the arms of the Lord after you die, there is just nothingness. That is Hell to me.

Thank you Femme for your response. I'd like to ask why you believe this. With permission, of course.

I would agree being separated from God would be rather disturbing.