Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 11, 2012 14:31:23 GMT -5
That's just bizarre. Mitt Romney?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 11, 2012 14:37:43 GMT -5
That's just bizarre. Mitt Romney? they would probably say he makes the earth spin, too.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 11, 2012 14:40:17 GMT -5
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 11, 2012 14:45:41 GMT -5
Hey.. check that out, Obama won
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 11, 2012 14:48:13 GMT -5
Woops!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 11, 2012 14:48:16 GMT -5
I find it interesting to note the boards are really quite diversified as opposed to one-sided as so many have claimed. I'd had the impression that was true, but it's good to see it displayed this way.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Sept 11, 2012 14:51:10 GMT -5
That's just bizarre. Mitt Romney? they would probably say he makes the earth spin, too. Are we sure they know the Earth revolves around the Sun and not the other way around?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 11, 2012 14:52:08 GMT -5
they would probably say he makes the earth spin, too. Are we sure they know the Earth revolves around the Sun and not the other way around? well, WE are....but THEY aren't.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 11, 2012 15:13:06 GMT -5
We in the "hard sciences" are held accountable if we design a better mousetrap and it explodes. The various social sciences hold no such duty of care.
"The vast majority of behavioral science conclusions come from behavioral experiments that are completely artificial in their construction. Most take place in labs at elite universities, where graduate students and professors pay undergraduates a pittance to sit for varying periods of time and fill out questionnaires of varying length. Sometimes the subjects are asked to interact while the grad students watch them, other times the questionnaires alone suffice to produce the data. “Behavioral economics,” Thaler likes to say, “is the study of humans in markets.” Actually, it’s the study of college kids in psych labs." - Andrew Ferguson
I'm not saying that social science "isn't science". I'm saying that it largely lacks the analytical component that explains the 'why' and the 'how' as well as the 'what'.
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TonyTiger
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Post by TonyTiger on Sept 11, 2012 15:22:28 GMT -5
I dunno... Fearless Leader is ahead by a few points, but it still looks like a close race, with another 24 hours (-ish) to go yet... we're just comin' outta the third turn now... it could still get pretty weird... ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 15:31:46 GMT -5
I'm not saying that social science "isn't science". I'm saying that it largely lacks the analytical component that explains the 'why' and the 'how' as well as the 'what'. and I'm saying you are misinformed. What happens if your mousetrap explodes? Do you lose funding? Have to pay to clean up the lab? Deal with a lawsuit? Here ins the real world, where the people are, if you violate your profession's code of ethics (they all have one), violate subject confidentiality, or otherwise cause harm to a person (and yes, psychological harm is legitimate harm) you're going to lose funding. You're going to get sued. And you're going to get black listed, so that you can never work again. You migt be able to support the claim that a large volume of publications comes from studies done with willing college students, because they are there and they work cheap. This is mostly true of psychology and sociology. These studies are used to generate theories to be tested in the real world. Yes, technically, the studies have conclusions. That is a whole section at the end of every scientific paper... what did you learn? But they aren't the end of the conversation. You do the $2000 study with the undergrads in order to inform the $200,000 study in the community. Then you replicate that in another community. And another one. And another one. That is how you generate real conclusions that impact real people's lives.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 11, 2012 15:33:23 GMT -5
we'll see. the dust will settle on the convention by Wednesday or Thursday. Obama will PROBABLY slowly fall back, at that point. but, as i said before, Romney has never really lead in this race, and he is trailing by more than usual right now, so i don't give him good odds, UNLESS something terrible happens- and clearly a LOT of things could.
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Sept 11, 2012 16:07:01 GMT -5
It's as if they want to believe in their favorite so much that any facts presented to them to the contrary are ignored. Frustrating. deeply. Yep. You can lead a horse to water...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 11, 2012 16:08:39 GMT -5
Deal with a lawsuit. Lose professional accreditation. Go to jail.
Nothing major.
I'm not talking about ethics in research.
I'm talking about behavioural economists like Dr. Lawrence Summers advising the White House on economic policy and wiping out national economies like a bull in a china shop.
I'm talking about "Affirmative Action", "No Child Left Behind", and other disastrous social policies that are put into place based on "sound results" observed in a lab setting and then generalized a millionfold.
Policymakers hear the word "science" and put these theories into action under the presumption that the scientist knows what he/she is talking about. Some policies are beneficial. Some are detrimental. Some incur enormous costs or foul up the proper dynamics of other social spheres. Some can literally threaten societies.
China considers itself a "scientific republic" and is no stranger to broad experimentation with social engineering. Results include their one child policy, mass abortion and infanticide of female babies, a dangerous female-to-male demographic shift, a black market for infants, etc.
No social scientist is held accountable if these policies go afoul and wipe out millions of lives. And why should they be? Their claim to fame is administering surveys in a lab setting, proffering (or prostituting, as is too often the case) their ideas as the panacea for society's ills, and quantifying the benefits and/or the carnage when ideas become reality. Trial, error, and clean up the mess.
Engineering and the hard sciences aren't like that. You deploy a product or build a building that isn't tested and validated to within an inch of its life, and it fails, you are finished.
How much do you want to bet the architects of "No Child Left Behind" are still touring the lecture circuit?
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beags
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Post by beags on Sept 11, 2012 16:28:16 GMT -5
I still can't get over how incredibly stupid most Americans are.
Here you all go complaining about the way things turn out . .. and what do most of you do? Argue over what party is the better one.
None of you party followers will ever see that the problem lies right there, within our two main parties. They are the flip side of the same exact coin . .. and yet you all think one is better than the other . . . . and you will all bitch when the election is over and yet again NOTHING has changed.
In the meantime . . you will all kill each other (so to speak, not literally), call each other names, rip each other apart . . for what? It doesn't matter what die hard follower you are. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Some year America will wake up to this fact . .. unfortunately there are too many brainwashed people in our country who feel the two party system is the way to go.
All the two party system has done is ruin this country . . . take a bow dems and pubs.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 11, 2012 17:11:43 GMT -5
I still can't get over how incredibly stupid most Americans are. Here you all go complaining about the way things turn out . .. and what do most of you do? Argue over what party is the better one. None of you party followers will ever see that the problem lies right there, within our two main parties. They are the flip side of the same exact coin . .. and yet you all think one is better than the other . . . . and you will all bitch when the election is over and yet again NOTHING has changed. In the meantime . . you will all kill each other (so to speak, not literally), call each other names, rip each other apart . . for what? It doesn't matter what die hard follower you are. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Some year America will wake up to this fact . .. unfortunately there are too many brainwashed people in our country who feel the two party system is the way to go. All the two party system has done is ruin this country . . . take a bow dems and pubs. I don't agree with you...While there are some similarities , the goals of the two partys on their wants and desires , beyond the wanting Peace in our time and good will toward man, are very different and the way to achieve these goals and desires. I agree with the pushing one party better then the other is BS. For ME one party fits much better with their wants and desires then the other. The other party and I just are not on the same page. That doesn't mean that I and that party Im choose is right or they are wrong. Just for ME , the party I choose is a good fit and the leader of that party, even if on certain issues there may be some disagreements on, I am very comfortable with him in that position and I have his back so to speak and I trust he will look out for my countrys interests and mine the best he can...and do a very good job. At least so far , been doing fine considering...so fine for a second term..the new guy, for me..lots of talking and promising but real light on specifics..complains a lot too....
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 11, 2012 17:14:56 GMT -5
I still can't get over how incredibly stupid most Americans are. Here you all go complaining about the way things turn out . .. and what do most of you do? Argue over what party is the better one. None of you party followers will ever see that the problem lies right there, within our two main parties. They are the flip side of the same exact coin . .. and yet you all think one is better than the other . . . . and you will all bitch when the election is over and yet again NOTHING has changed. In the meantime . . you will all kill each other (so to speak, not literally), call each other names, rip each other apart . . for what? It doesn't matter what die hard follower you are. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Some year America will wake up to this fact . .. unfortunately there are too many brainwashed people in our country who feel the two party system is the way to go. All the two party system has done is ruin this country . . . take a bow dems and pubs. Considering all we ve accomplished in a relatively short time, 236 years ..give a year or two depending how you figure, TY, I would take that bow , in fact a few curtain calls are warrented too, IMHO. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:18:05 GMT -5
Deal with a lawsuit. Lose professional accreditation. Go to jail. Nothing major. I'm not talking about ethics in research. I'm talking about behavioural economists like Dr. Lawrence Summers advising the White House on economic policy and wiping out national economies like a bull in a china shop. I'm talking about "Affirmative Action", "No Child Left Behind", and other disastrous social policies that are put into place based on "sound results" observed in a lab setting and then generalized a millionfold. Policymakers hear the word "science" and put these theories into action under the presumption that the scientist knows what he/she is talking about. Some policies are beneficial. Some are detrimental. Some incur enormous costs or foul up the proper dynamics of other social spheres. Some can literally threaten societies. China considers itself a "scientific republic" and is no stranger to broad experimentation with social engineering. Results include their one child policy, mass abortion and infanticide of female babies, a dangerous female-to-male demographic shift, a black market for infants, etc. No social scientist is held accountable if these policies go afoul and wipe out millions of lives. And why should they be? Their claim to fame is administering surveys in a lab setting, proffering (or prostituting, as is too often the case) their ideas as the panacea for society's ills, and quantifying the benefits and/or the carnage when ideas become reality. Trial, error, and clean up the mess. Engineering and the hard sciences aren't like that. You deploy a product or build a building that isn't tested and validated to within an inch of its life, and it fails, you are finished. How much do you want to bet the architects of "No Child Left Behind" are still touring the lecture circuit? You're blaming scientists for policymakers? Seriously? Do you blame the engineers who designed the solar panels for Solyndra? The ethanol researchers for government subsidies? Are the guys who designed the helicopters out of work because the DoD ordered a bunch of equipment that doesn't work well in the desert? If you're going to have a double standard, have the courtesy of admitting it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:20:09 GMT -5
Picking on Virgil aside, how cool would it be if a third party candidate could get 15% of the popular vote in the real world?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 11, 2012 19:22:45 GMT -5
Picking on Virgil aside, how cool would it be if a third party candidate could get 15% of the popular vote in the real world? it has happened once in the last 20 years. it could very easily happen again. the reason i am MORE optimistic than ever is that there is a CANYON between the two parties right now. i doubt that more than HALF of the public can identify with the platforms of either right now. that says to me that choosing a platform that addresses those concerns could cause the major parties some serious trouble, and bring them BACK TO A PLACE where they can actually negotiate with one another, and govern. i know. i can hear Imagine playing, too. sigh.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Sept 11, 2012 19:27:37 GMT -5
Picking on Virgil aside, how cool would it be if a third party candidate could get 15% of the popular vote in the real world? Not sure if it would be cool or not but definitely mean they would have some say in the big game...but ONLY if that 15% also elected some of their people to Congress and enough to be a force to consider and need when trying to get or stop certain legislation being presented. Our system of Government does not reward weakness...unlike Israel, where there Knesset has so many parties, minority party's , representing a small group of citizens seem to have more clout and influence then you would think available to them thus affecting major policies of the majority government way out of proportion to their actual #'s if part of the coalition that is in power.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 19:36:05 GMT -5
Seriously... someone needs to send Ron Paul a memo. It's time to pass the torch and stop stealing Gary Johnson's votes.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 11, 2012 19:57:07 GMT -5
Absolutely.
The blame goes partly to the policymakers as well, but social scientists can, will, and do extend their research conclusions far beyond their proven domains. The results can be catastrophic.
If they were responsible for promoting these technologies claiming "Oh yes, these will work and be cost effective at large scale.", then absolutely. Absolutely.
And this also serves as a fine example. If an engineer writes down "$0.03 per kWh" in the specs for a solar panel, and it turns out the actual figure is $0.15 per kWh, you'd better believe his company is going to get their rear end sued off and he'll be looking for a new job.
As for the DoD, they're a $600-billion-a-year money pit. Heads should roll for any multi-billion dollar boondoggle. If none do, it's a reflection of the fact that the DoD can flush billions of dollars down the toilet without any serious repercussions. That is a failure of the system, not a justification to overlook the fact that the social sciences are lacking in accountability.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Sept 11, 2012 20:26:43 GMT -5
The Founding Fathers of the USA were the "Social Scientists" of their time. The Abolitionists were the Social Scientists of the 19th century. The Civil Rights movement of the post-WWII era was propelled by the Social Scientists. Liberty, Liberation and desegregation are the products of Social Scientists.
So when people try to demonize Social Scientists, I object.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 12, 2012 0:36:05 GMT -5
Nobody is demonizing social scientists.
And none of the groups you've mentioned are social scientists, quotation marks or no. Unless of course you want to stuff any group of revolutionaries or patriots, good or bad, into the "social scientist" category—which you're free to do so long as you don't expect anyone to agree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 7:02:33 GMT -5
social science n. 1. The study of human society and of individual relationships in and to society. 2. A scholarly or scientific discipline that deals with such study, generally regarded as including sociology, psychology, anthropology, economics, political science, and history. social scientist n.
Seems like the definition fits...
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Sept 12, 2012 8:02:28 GMT -5
Seriously... someone needs to send Ron Paul a memo. It's time to pass the torch and stop stealing Gary Johnson's votes. Time to pass the torch? Not sure why you would say that. I would be a whole lot that he is much healthier than any of the republican primary candidates. Also, when Ron Paul officially supports GJ for the presidential nomination I will give my vote to GJ. Ron Paul is smart enough to do research on people before supporting them for office. If he doesn't think that candidate is conservative or libertarian enough, I usually tend to agree. I wouldn't pass the torch on my beliefs unless I was 100% sure the beliefs would stay intact.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 9:37:41 GMT -5
Seriously... someone needs to send Ron Paul a memo. It's time to pass the torch and stop stealing Gary Johnson's votes. Time to pass the torch? Not sure why you would say that. I would be a whole lot that he is much healthier than any of the republican primary candidates. Also, when Ron Paul officially supports GJ for the presidential nomination I will give my vote to GJ. Ron Paul is smart enough to do research on people before supporting them for office. If he doesn't think that candidate is conservative or libertarian enough, I usually tend to agree. I wouldn't pass the torch on my beliefs unless I was 100% sure the beliefs would stay intact. Because he is never going to get elected. But by running as a Libertarian in GOP clothing, he is undermining the Libertarian Party's efforts to get its legs under it. And he's not going to endorse Gary Johnson. He's gave a half-assed edorsement to Romney. Ron Paul is 77. He tried and failed to get the GOP nomination. His next shot will be in 2016 when he is 81. This country isn't going to elect an 81 year old for a first term. If he doesn't like Gary Johnson, then he should be grooming another successor. But, from my seat, the Libertarian Party has the best shot at being a viable third party. (Sorry Green Party) They need to start acting like they are a viable third party.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Sept 12, 2012 10:41:23 GMT -5
Time to pass the torch? Not sure why you would say that. I would be a whole lot that he is much healthier than any of the republican primary candidates. Also, when Ron Paul officially supports GJ for the presidential nomination I will give my vote to GJ. Ron Paul is smart enough to do research on people before supporting them for office. If he doesn't think that candidate is conservative or libertarian enough, I usually tend to agree. I wouldn't pass the torch on my beliefs unless I was 100% sure the beliefs would stay intact. Because he is never going to get elected. But by running as a Libertarian in GOP clothing, he is undermining the Libertarian Party's efforts to get its legs under it. And he's not going to endorse Gary Johnson. He's gave a half-assed edorsement to Romney. Ron Paul is 77. He tried and failed to get the GOP nomination. His next shot will be in 2016 when he is 81. This country isn't going to elect an 81 year old for a first term. If he doesn't like Gary Johnson, then he should be grooming another successor. But, from my seat, the Libertarian Party has the best shot at being a viable third party. (Sorry Green Party) They need to start acting like they are a viable third party. Ron Paul tried to run as a Libertarian, he realized it was more likely he could get the nomination as a Republican. Discriminating somebody because of age is just a poor excuse and not ethical at all. He has been endorsing many people for senate and congress, I am sure when they try for the presidential nomination he would more than be happy to contribute. As far as grooming, I would prefer him to be concentrating on his job as a congressman, not grooming. I would like to see the quote on his half-assed endorsement of Romney, I think that notion is quite ridiculous. He has said multiple times he does not endorse Romney. People that think never, rarely accomplish anything of great importance. I am one that tends to find another away instead of saying it can never be done.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 12, 2012 10:49:17 GMT -5
vote is now 63 to 62, well within the margin of error, even thought here at P&M, memembers, never ever, make an error.
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