Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 20, 2012 23:43:30 GMT -5
Poll Question: Suppose A and B are incompatible statements. If a person says A 300 times, then B, then immediately retracts B, claims he misspoke, and says A 300 more times, which statement, A or B, is more likely to represent his actual view?We've all misspoken, or made ham-handed statements, or made statements that were grossly misinterpreted, or made statements hastily and later retracted them. And since it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say we've done all of these things literally hundreds of times in our lives, you would think 'A' would be the obvious answer. But not in crazyland. US Vice Pres. Joe Biden says "they're going to put you back in chains", responding to a "they're going to unchain Wall Street comment" and bam! B. Ol' Joe is a racist. Doesn't matter if he's never published any racist material. Doesn't matter that you could compile the favourable things he's said and written about black Americans and make a six-week continuous running tape of it. Nope. Joe said "they're going to put you back in chains". B. He's a racist. And how about that Rep. Akin? Refers to "forcible rape" as "legitimate rape". Later, as he's being fitted for the gallows, he tries to explain for the 218th time in 48 hours. "What I meant was 'forcible rape'." Does anyone care? Does anyone know anything about this man except that he called "forcible rape" "legitimate rape"? What has he said about rape in the past? What has he done for rape victims in his state? Of course nobody knows! It's B!!!: Akin thinks Rape Victims deserve it. Doesn't matter what he's said, what he meant to say, what he's done, how he's apologized, what he's going to say from now on. Doesn't even matter that assuming he meant B is, frankly, an unreasonable assumption. Nosir, it's B for Rep. Akin. But let's not limit it to politicians. What about moderators on our very own board. Suppose a mod makes a comment about Jerry Sanduski. "Darn it! That's totally not what I meant. I'm going to delete it, disavow it thirty thousand times, issue hand-crafted apologies to each and every person who took offense, and hopefully these kind, reasonable people will understand that I meant A." WRONG!!! It's B again, of course!!! "Crucify him! Crucify him! Hang him by his thumbs! Kick him off the board!" Sure, he's been a respected, dedicated moderator for two years and you could fill a book with his posts that completely and utterly contradict the notion that he supports B, but by gum, if he says B once, it's time to bring out the ol' cross and nails 'cause B is what he really thinks. Rick Santorum says "black in chains" while criticizing ol' Joe's B. Aha! Racist!! A rare double-B!! Pres. Obama says "you didn't build it yourself", referring to the trillions in US infrastructure. BLAM-O! B! Pres. Obama hates small business! He said it once and was widely interpreted that way, ergo it defines his entire political philosophy for all time! Yippee ki yea! Who cares what his actual policies are! Perhaps I'm the only one sick and bloody tired of living in a society where 'B' is always the answer. I would like to think that if I said something—maybe ham-handed, maybe misinterpreted, maybe out of anger—and then repeatedly, vehemently disclaimed it, that folks here would at least consider believing that I truly and honestly meant A. Look at what a politician has written, what they've put their name behind, what laws they've championed. Look at what a poster has repeatedly said, what views they repeatedly champion. Stop acting as though every poster, politician, and ideologue is defined by a handful of comments on media telecast or in a heated debate. Our society is turning into a nation of rabid, hair-trigger scandal-seekers. We're throwing away the entire forest for the sake of one tree. We jump from gaffe to gaffe, claiming "this is what he really thinks", circling like vultures, when the proof is always, always, always in the long-term pudding. Let's not be a part of this. 'A' can be and often is the answer. Show your fellow man some decency. Have some faith. Don't give into the insanity. Thanks and Regards, Virgil Serenity
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 20, 2012 23:52:17 GMT -5
Wish I could do polls. I would actually do a poll instead of this ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:58:19 GMT -5
Akin has worked to legally reduce the definition of rape to only cover those 'forcible' cases ... ie returning to the old standard of juding whether rape occured by how hard a woman resists... he has made it clear on many occasions what he considers to be a legitimate case of rape... this is not a one off... it was just more blunt than he generally is on teevee
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 21, 2012 0:10:41 GMT -5
In every case you've mentioned, Virgil, the answer is, of course, A. People who have agendas will twist whatever they have to twist to make things come out their way. It's a given. It's too bad, but it's the way it is. Best ignored, as I see it.
Biden's statement was quite clear in context. In order to make it nefarious, it was necessary to take it out of context. Those who do this actually believe others are so stupid they won't notice.
Akin's statement in no way could be taken to mean he thinks rape victims deserve it. While his statement showed his ignorance with regard to rape-related pregnancy, it certainly couldn't be taken as a "pro-rape" statement ... unless someone chose to make it appear so.
The same logic applies to every instance cited. There are those who will purposefully twist and tweak what another says to meet their own needs. The trick, as I see it, is not to fall for it. Most of us don't.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 21, 2012 0:23:23 GMT -5
I don't know about "us".
I get the impression that one-liner scandals can be very successfully marketed to the broader public. And all of the above issues come straight off P&M threads.
If it's a pattern, then fine. Consider the source, of course. They may be aggregating every bone-headed or heavy-handed thing he's ever said over the past decade and spinning it into a montage as though it's a weekly occurrence. The Canadian media is absolutely horrible for doing this, and I can't imagine the US media is any better.
On the P&M thread devoted to it, one poster acknowledges having some knowledge of Rep. Akin beyond the window of this scandal. To everyone else: he meant it; he's an enemy to rape victims; no more information needed; case closed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:28:18 GMT -5
I don't think he's an advocate of rape. I do think that he is among an older generation of men who define rape differently than we do today... and I think that having men in office who believe there is some standard of resistance necessary to prove rape is a dangerous thing for our daughters...
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 21, 2012 0:32:05 GMT -5
I disagree, Virgil. I don't think "everyone" thought he was an enemy to rape victims. I certainly don't think such. It's foolish to do so, based on what the man said. I do believe he's ignorant of how these things work, but he's sure not alone in that, and it's understandable.
I also don't think all people necessarily believe what they may be advocating at any given time. As I said, people twist thing to make those things fit their agendas. They know they're twisting, but they need to be right ... so twist until you're right. It's like a motto for some.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 21, 2012 1:07:12 GMT -5
Admittedly an exaggeration.
Look through the first few pages, and he's repeatedly called a liar. GG calls him a neanderthal. DJ accuses him of "making [stuff] up". Several posters gasp in mock horror at the fact that he sits on a science and technology council.
People immediately start taking license with what he says. "from what doctors have told me, it's very unlikely" quickly becomes "because I think so, it's very unlikely" without hesitation or justification. Then it migrates to "because I think so, it's impossible", which is ostensibly what 80% of the thread assumes he actually said. Wolf is still in there trying to speak truth to reason.
Excepting you, it isn't until Tenn's article on page (4?) that anybody actually knows whether or not Akin's claim is true or not (which of course hasn't stopped anyone from commenting). Many have declared his views to be patently and provably ridiculous, and I still see no evidence that this is the case.
I'm of that dying mindset that if a man says "No, what I meant was 'forcible rape', and I realize 'legitimate' was a very poor choice of words. I'm sorry." unless he's actively supported legislation that tries to classify spousal rape, drug-induced rape, etc. as something other than rape, I'm going to believe him. Maybe he was ignorant, maybe he got advice from all the wrong doctors, but he acknowledged the mistake and learned from it.
The attitude in that thread is decidedly different than my own. And from the various comments about Rep. Akin's standing in the polls before and after the comment, it seems as though this one comment has completely overridden everything else the man has ever done. Stick a fork in him. He's done. He committed political suicide in a single statement.
Not only do I not condone that fact, I resent it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 21, 2012 3:19:33 GMT -5
Several posters gasp in mock horror at the fact that he sits on a science and technology council. ------------------ Mock horror? Au contraire, mon ami.....my horror was genuine.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 21, 2012 3:58:48 GMT -5
People in the public eye occasionally say silly things. It is the job of those in opposition to challenge anything they can....and make as much political headway out of it as possible. Much of the sheeple is essentially easily manipulated.......that's why those in positions of power need PR and spin doctors. This is how the game of politics is played...there are layers and layers of subterfuge. The electorate should never take anything on face value...and seek out information for forming opinions from as wide a basis as possible. I'm in favour of transparency and freedom of the press....and am fully aware of how media bias can peddle lies. The alarm bells should only go off.....If said person continues to say silly things. One mistake can be allowed but if it continues.. we should rightly question their competency.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 21, 2012 4:25:38 GMT -5
My horror at Rep. Akin's statement was the implication that rape victims who become pregnant deserve their pregnancy fate by not exercising this mechanism he thinks exists. While I think he's somewhat of an idiot for using the term legimate rape it really only took moments of internet research to draw the conclusion he was probably trying to exclude many cases of statutory rape from that category.
Some things are so inflammatory a wise person would be extra careful in discussing them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 5:35:18 GMT -5
Look at what politicians DO , not what they say. How have they voted? What bills have they passed or been hot to trot about? For Obama, LOOK at his record and THEN interpret his comments. His "You didn't build that" isn't interpreted as people helped you along the way, we help each other but in light of his record and other opinions regarding socialism, big govt and slamming the door shut on business and American ingenuity.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 5:39:15 GMT -5
But, another problem with country is the era of the sound byte. We vote based on bumper stickers and slogans. People now decide on someone based on a single statement. Why? Because it is easy. Because we are intellectually lazy. Because The Bachelor is on and we don't watch to watch CNN and Fox and have to mull over the real truth behind the story and decide for ourselves. But, instead, we react like a frenzied thug mob over words when someone calls us a poo poo head and sit by like a bunch of slug couch potatoes while politicians legislate and vote our country down the toilet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:04:09 GMT -5
Look at what politicians DO , not what they say. How have they voted? What bills have they passed or been hot to trot about? For Obama, LOOK at his record and THEN interpret his comments. His "You didn't build that" isn't interpreted as people helped you along the way, we help each other but in light of his record and other opinions regarding socialism, big govt and slamming the door shut on business and American ingenuity. and then again. GM, girl. Couldn't sleep or just up early? Just getting ready for work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:12:58 GMT -5
Politics is messy business. This is nothing new.
Yes, It would be nice if it changed. It would also be nice if a fairy sprinkled pixie dust on my dirty dishes and they were instantly cleaned and put away.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 6:37:54 GMT -5
I'm kind of horrified by you. The guy is clearly an idiot. I have daughters granddaughters and sisters. You defended his statement when you had no knowledge of the subject. So a politician says x 500 times and y once. It is naive to believe every thing a politician says. It is naive to think maybe they don't have an agenda other then stated. If a guy accidentally cuts off his hand at a saw, he doesn't get to say, "well I was safe the last 500 times. I want my hand back." Defenders like you don't help the case either. Your defense of the congressman wasn't he said something boneheaded and he's sorry. It was maybe he's right. Then you introduced no facts to support that. ...is he "clearly an idiot" because he's in politics? or is there another rubric involved?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 6:38:43 GMT -5
Politics is messy business. This is nothing new. Yes, It would be nice if it changed. Then we need to stop with the apathy, stop the grumbling and find ways to change it. I'm hoping that the exposure that the Internet provides will help do that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:39:31 GMT -5
If you accidentally cut off your hand after using a saw properly, that also doesn't mean you are the Texas Chainsaw Killer who is then going to go about killing other people with chainsaws. The leap of absurdity goes both ways.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 6:39:40 GMT -5
Politics is messy business. This is nothing new. Yes, It would be nice if it changed. It would also be nice if a fairy sprinkled pixie dust on my dirty dishes and they were instantly cleaned and put away. ...ooo... share the wealth... I want some of that dust... ;D
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 6:40:59 GMT -5
Look at what politicians DO , not what they say. How have they voted? What bills have they passed or been hot to trot about? For Obama, LOOK at his record and THEN interpret his comments. His "You didn't build that" isn't interpreted as people helped you along the way, we help each other but in light of his record and other opinions regarding socialism, big govt and slamming the door shut on business and American ingenuity. ...another for shooby...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:41:10 GMT -5
The idea of the "Gotcha statement" is for the lazy, less than astute consuming public. It makes for great TV. And it is funny how one statement can be simply fluffed off or brushed under the rug or is no big deal depending on who makes the statement or who is reporting it.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 6:42:36 GMT -5
The idea of the "Gotcha statement" is for the lazy, less than astute consuming public. It makes for great TV. And it is funny how one statement can be simply fluffed off or brushed under the rug or is no big deal depending on who makes the statement or who is reporting it. ...you betcha...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:44:02 GMT -5
But, yet Harry Reid can say Obama is "clean, articulate, light skinned with no negro dialect" and he is still in office. Hmmm?? Are you all applying the same standard and leaps to conclusions to HIM that you have applied to Akin. Just askin.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:53:03 GMT -5
So, we have to call right wingers "idiots"? We can also talk about left wing idiots too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:54:13 GMT -5
If reasonable people cut him slack and say "he just misspoke" without blowing the thing up, what politicians do is use the offensive one in blogs and such where it works and hasn't been vehemently denied and the white bread version of it in mainstream media. He gets the best of both, an idiot right-winger to idiot right-wingers and mainstream to mainstream. Yes, evaluation needs to be paid to all statements that politicians make, but why must we overreact? Because any chance for one side to blow an issue all out of proportion for political hay, it will be used.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 6:54:32 GMT -5
So, we have to call right wingers "idiots"? We can also talk about left wing idiots too. ...I thought we were nut jobs... gotta update my signature block now, I guess?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 6:56:08 GMT -5
So, we have to call right wingers "idiots"? We can also talk about left wing idiots too. ...I thought we were nut jobs... gotta update my signature block now, I guess? No, neither. Try whackos.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 7:03:54 GMT -5
...I thought we were nut jobs... gotta update my signature block now, I guess? No, neither. Try whackos. ...meh... "right wing whackos" wouldn't work 'cuz the alliteration would be off...
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Aug 21, 2012 7:45:29 GMT -5
Actually lone you are also taking his comments out of context. He didn't just say that pregnancy from rape was rare. He said:
So according to him and his doctor friends its rare BECAUSE the female body "shuts the whole thing down". The implication, at least to me, is that if a woman claiming rape is pregnant than her claim must be viewed with some degree of skepticism since there is apparently some biological process at work that prevents it. THAT is offensive.
And in response to the OP, some comments are so offensive that it doesn't really matter to me how many times a person disclaims them after the fact, saying them at all is enough. Many people, politicians especially, are trained to talk in non-offensive vagaries, so I think in some cases "slips" like this are sometimes closer to what they truly then the often sanitized language they typically use.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 21, 2012 7:51:05 GMT -5
...he also said... "It's clear that I misspoke in this interview and it does not reflect the deep empathy I hold for the thousands of women who are raped and abused every year," he said. "I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action." ...and... "To be clear, all of us understand that rape can result in pregnancy & I have great empathy for all victims. I regret misspeaking." ...and as earlier posted, if Harry Reid gets a pass on the 'he's clean, light-skinned, and doesn't speak with a negro accent' comment, then this dude should be golden, right?
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