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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 10:56:42 GMT -5
A Communist society has never been achieved. It is indeed idealistic, and highly impractical. In hindsight it is hard to believe that intelligent people believed the premise. A free market capitalist society has never been achieved. It is indeed idealistic, and highly impractical. In hindsight it is hard to believe that intelligent people believed the premise. i was saving that argument for later, bitch. you ruined everything. ![>:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/angry.png)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 10:58:25 GMT -5
A free market capitalist society has never been achieved. It is indeed idealistic, and highly impractical. In hindsight it is hard to believe that intelligent people believed the premise. i was saving that argument for later, bitch. you ruined everything. ![>:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/angry.png) Hey, I'm not Tea. I demand respect.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 11:07:42 GMT -5
i was saving that argument for later, bitch. you ruined everything. ![>:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/angry.png) Hey, I'm not Tea. I demand respect. well, you have it arch. that was actually a back handed compliment, in the finest Twain tradition. you beat me to it, bro.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 11:09:12 GMT -5
While I grant you and Virgil that there IS a an alternate (and wrong) meaning of the word communism, I still use the original meaning of the word, and call people out on their use of that alternate meaning. The main reason I do so is that to accept that alternate meaning means to ignore the history involved, and in fact to attempt to change it. For one thing, conflating communism with the real life experiences of regimes such as the USSR and the PRC makes one wonder how so many people could have fought and died to create them. this is the real crime in those systems. the thrust of communism is essentially Utopian. these people entrusted their dreams to their leaders, and many gave their lives for it. they were delivered nightmares. it is enough to make one a committed pragmatist. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 22, 2012 11:42:19 GMT -5
I guess we'll need a translation table. DJ/Demin Ideal Term | | Term 99.999% of Everyone Else Uses | Communism | | Marxism, Utopian Communism, The Communist Ideal | Socialism | | Communism | Mixed System, Favouring Socialism | | Socialism | Mixed System, Favouring Capitalism | | Capitalism | Capitalism | | The Capitalist Ideal, Smithian Capitalism | Fascism | | Corporate Rule, Corporate Dictatorship, Banana Republic | Brutal Autocracy | | Fascism |
Hold on to your ideal language as long as you can, but you're not going to outlast "the public". ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Driftr on Aug 22, 2012 11:53:08 GMT -5
You should put one of those together for the term Liberal too. :-)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 13:16:15 GMT -5
I guess we'll need a translation table. DJ/Demin Ideal Term | | Term 99.999% of Everyone Else Uses |
unless there are 200000 people on this board, i don't think you are anywhere close to right with your percentages, bro. but if you want to play percentages, how many people use THESE words correctly? irregardless = 0% it is not actually a word. people use it. peruse = very small percent. it doesn't mean to "skim". ironic = very small percent. it doesn't mean coincidental. pristine = very small percent. it doesn't mean "like new". i could go on and on. people misuse words all of the time. but i find it especially galling when they are misused for political reasons. it is even more galling when the object of the abuse is something that might, if not demonized, actually be of interest to people. but again, suit yourself. if you want to stand with the majority that uses words incorrectly, it is a free country.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 13:17:08 GMT -5
You should put one of those together for the term Liberal too. :-) indeed he should. it ranks right up there with peruse in terms of misuse. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 13:17:58 GMT -5
Perhaps not, but I'll be able to converse in an informed manner with people who actually do know shit from shinola. ![](http://us.social.s-msn.com/s/images/emoticons/wink_smile.gif) i doubt any but a very small percentage here know what shinola is.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 13:30:27 GMT -5
Virgil, it will not surprise you that i take great exception to your list. so, here we go, point by point.
Communism -vs- Marxism, Utopian Communism, The Communist Ideal
those are no different to me. so i am stumped at why you started there. you can lump me in with the 99.999% here.
Socialism -vs- Communism
socialism is an intermediary to communism. but BOTH of these terms are misused, since socialism implies the ownership of the mans of production, as you already acknowledged.
Mixed System, Favouring Socialism -vs- Socialism
nope. people don't generally say "socialism" in these instances. ime, only Americans do, and certainly nowhere near 100%. maybe half? most Americans say "European Style Socialism" or "Democratic Socialism". these terms are actually fairly well understood, and have different meanings than Socialism.
Mixed System, Favouring Capitalism -vs- Capitalism
Capitalism has a much broader meaning than Socialism, imo. so i actually have no objection to this one. again, i can go with the 99.999%
Capitalist -vs- The Capitalist Ideal, Smithian Capitalism
again, i am fine with the 99.999% here. there is no clear differentiation, imo.
Fascism -vs- Corporate Rule, Corporate Dictatorship, Banana Republic
again, i am with the 99.999% here.
Brutal Autocracy -vs- Fascism, Marxism, Utopian Communism, The Communist Ideal
no objection here, either- except there is nothing autocratic about utopian communism. there is no state, so there can be no autocracy.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 22, 2012 13:35:59 GMT -5
so, as you can see, most of your objections are non objections, Virgil. but Driftr is right, the use of liberal is totally galling to me.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 22, 2012 17:46:22 GMT -5
Well...I have read 1984 ...and Big Brother is Communist....Its is also totalitarian. Orwells vision was driven by his hatred of this form of government.
I don't know any societies like this...tbh.....
Some European left of centre parties are called Liberal Democrat, Social Democrat or Labour. Socialism is further left ...but nowhere near Communist.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2012 13:10:12 GMT -5
I suppose so. I've never heard it used. This one would've gotten me. I've never heard it used in the denotative sense. "Ironic" is one of those adjectives with so many nuances to its use that comics have been made about it. Fundamentally, situational irony is the juxtaposition of two incompatible ideas or concepts. "Ironically, he was warning people about the dangers of heart disease while carelessly charging back and forth across a busy highway." I agree that it isn't synonymous with "coincidental", but there are a number of situations where both terms would be applicable. (e.g. "The scientists were meeting to discuss the imminent and deadly impacts of global warming. [Coincidentally | ironically], another group of scientists was meeting just down the hall to discuss evidence that global warming was a fraud." Tell that to Google, Princeton Wordnet, and Merriam-Webster. With the exception of "peruse", none of these terms is as universally misused as any of the terms in my translation table. And frankly, "peruse" might as well mean "skim", because I guarantee you only one person in a thousand will know the dictionary definition. As for "liberal" in the American lexicon: take any issue (say, healthcare spending), examine the Democrat majority position on the topic versus the Republican majority position on the topic ("we should make no medicare cuts; we should extend health coverage to the impoverished" -vs.- "we should make cuts; and no public healthcare"), extend this spectrum to its furthest extents ("we should throw money at medicare, expand to universal national healthcare, give every man, woman, and child, citizen or not, world-class healthcare for life" -vs.- "we should eliminate all medicare entirely, let the uninsured die in the gutter, let insurance companies insure who they want and charge what they want"). In the American lexicon, one end defines "liberalism in it's purest form", the other end defines "conservatism in it's purest form", regardless of the issue and regardless of how the two viewpoints correlate with actual liberalism and conservatism. Again, get used to it. Personally, I find the above ad hoc definitions for the terms far more useful than the original definitions. Probably why nobody cares to honour the original meaning of the terms. That, and a hundred and one synonyms for the original meanings also exist.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 23, 2012 13:17:31 GMT -5
<<< ("we should throw money at medicare, expand to universal national healthcare, give every man, woman, and child, citizen or not, world-class healthcare for life" -vs.- "we should eliminate all medicare entirely, let the uninsured die in the gutter, let insurance companies insure who they want and charge what they want"). >>> ...wouldn't a conservative would more likely say, "respectfully stand aside of their commercial activity, even if it leads them to die in a gutter"?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2012 14:03:56 GMT -5
Again, get used to it. Personally, I find the above ad hoc definitions for the terms far more useful than the original definitions. Probably why nobody cares to honour the original meaning of the terms. That, and a hundred and one synonyms for the original meanings also exist. sorry. i am not going to "get used" to people misusing terms, particularly for political reasons. you are just going to have to get used to that. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) poor grammar does not a synonym make.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 23, 2012 14:10:38 GMT -5
With the exception of "peruse", none of these terms is as universally misused as any of the terms in my translation table. well, over HALF of the terms that you suspected i would disagree with, i have no disagreement with @ all. so, it would appear that you get my point. the FACT that someone misuses a term doesn't make it right. it is still misuse. and pristine means "original", not "new". it's preferred usage is for ancient objects. like a boreal forest, for example. or an ice cave that has never been seen, but has been around for thousands of years. neither of those things are "new", but they are "original". i will admit that it is a subtle difference that escapes most people, but those words are not synonyms. here are the synonyms for pristine (from your link): primeval - primitive - original - ancient - primaeval do ANY of those synonyms imply "new". no. in fact, it is just the opposite. ANCIENT is a synonym. NEW is an antonym.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2012 14:42:51 GMT -5
'Conservative', 'liberal', 'right-wing', 'left-wing' in the DJ-approved sense are near useless. A "conservative", per the dictionary definition, is somebody who is resistant to change and who wants to "conserve" the status quo, or possibly change it, but at a very slow rate. A "liberal" is somebody who, in regards to a particular matter, wants to promote change, disregarding tradition (i.e. the way things have been done for a long time). It is nearly synonymous with "progressive", although progressive is a broader class. Consider that Row v. Wade is an established legal precedent in the US for 40 years. A poster might oppose outlawing abortion because he/she feels revoking a liberty Americans have traditionally enjoyed would cause huge logistical problems. The poster would therefore qualify as having a conservative position on the legality of abortion. Since this tradition means nothing to me and I support changing the laws, I would be extremely liberal on the position of abortion. Another poster might argue that "tradition" refers to the values of the past 100 years rather than of the past 40. And since "tradition" has no fixed timescale associated with it, he/she would be "right". This would cause me (wishing to restore traditional values) to be a "reactionary conservative" and my opponent (wishing to maintain the present status quo) to be "progressive conservative". Still another poster might consider the terms as they've applied over most of history, dubbing me "conservative" for espousing views that are "traditionally conservative" (on a long enough timescale), and the other poster "liberal" for espousing views that would traditionally have been at odds with the status quo. If you consider recognizing a fetus as a human child, most Republicans hold conservative views, while most Democrats hold liberal views. If you consider the idea of codifying the rights of a fetus in a bill, Republicans hold liberal views, while Democrats hold conservative views. The terms are so context sensitive they're veritably useless, which is why nobody honours the original definitions. DJ obviously has a problem with that, but he'll have a problem with it until the day he dies, because it's not going to change. You decide whether that makes him a conservative or a liberal on the issue. You didn't say "new", you said "like new". As in "unspoiled", "untouched". Pristine. "Like new" doesn't mean "new" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, most ads go out of their way to show how their product can make your old, old photographs appear "like new". ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/1-1.gif) Use it that way if you dare. You'll be like the fellow writing about how "John Wayne pranced into the bar".
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 23, 2012 14:54:57 GMT -5
Consider that Row v. Wade is an established legal precedent in the US for 40 years. ------------------ Row v. Wade? Is that concerning the best way to cross a shallow body of water? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2012 15:10:04 GMT -5
I guess we'll need a translation table. DJ/Demin Ideal Term | | Term 99.999% of Everyone Else Uses | Communism | | Marxism, Utopian Communism, The Communist Ideal | Socialism | | Communism | Mixed System, Favouring Socialism | | Socialism | Mixed System, Favouring Capitalism | | Capitalism | Capitalism | | The Capitalist Ideal, Smithian Capitalism | Fascism | | Corporate Rule, Corporate Dictatorship, Banana Republic | Brutal Autocracy | | Fascism |
Hold on to your ideal language as long as you can, but you're not going to outlast "the public". ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Given I agree with them and we have around 1000 posters perhaps 2000 tops, I'm not sure even 99% is all that accurate. I hate the way most misuse the world liberal and I'm probably more anal about not using the word socialist even when it might be appropriate.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2012 15:19:58 GMT -5
That was on purpose. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/actnatural.png) To... emphasize what a morass the issue has become. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2012 15:20:58 GMT -5
And besides, to cross a shallow body of water is to "ford", not "wade". ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png) x2
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2012 15:21:08 GMT -5
Row vs. Wade! LMAO Virgil!! ;D ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/1-1.gif)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2012 15:25:11 GMT -5
Oh come on. Is today the attack of the typo police? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/miserable.png)
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2012 15:34:58 GMT -5
And besides, to cross a shallow body of water is to "ford", not "wade". ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png) x2 But not to Fjord. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png)
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Post by TonyTiger on Aug 23, 2012 15:38:45 GMT -5
"... But not to Fjord." ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png) My son-in-law has an old Fjord Taurus... ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by b2r on Aug 23, 2012 15:46:34 GMT -5
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 23, 2012 15:54:34 GMT -5
![](http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsybQokm3h8ExmYJx6GLbX75PWw2fqB_yruhb2UL2xI4jAHf4WxA) "The parrot is not dead. 'E's pinin' for the fjords."
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 23, 2012 15:57:23 GMT -5
And besides, to cross a shallow body of water is to "ford", not "wade". ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/raspberries.png) x2 ford/fôrd/ Noun: A shallow place in a river or stream allowing one to walk or drive across. Verb: (of a person or vehicle) Cross (a river or stream) at a shallow place. Synonyms: wade
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 23, 2012 16:12:04 GMT -5
It's a near synonym, but it makes no implications about "crossing". "We waded the stream" makes no sense. "We waded into the stream" and "We waded out of the stream" are both partial descriptions. "We waded into the stream and then waded out of the stream" is verbose. "We waded across the stream" is fine, but explicitly requires 'across' to complete the meaning. "We forded the stream" is short, sweet, and beautiful. ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2012 16:14:38 GMT -5
We can't af ford this explanation is even shorter. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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