milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 14:26:44 GMT -5
Let's make a delineation here. If I delete someone else's post, I'll copy and paste that post to my deletes. If I make a post as a moderator, I won't delete it, at all. If, however, a moderator is posting as a poster (posts are not signed), they're as entitled as anyone else to delete their posts. I'm sure you don't copy the posts you decide to delete. I don't copy the posts I decide to delete if they've been posted in my position as poster, not moderator. I don't know whether that was the case here but, as deminmaine pointed out, if it was WWBG may not have kept copies of his own words, posted as a poster, not a moderator. I realize it's a sticky wicket in this case, because of all the consternation aroused by this particular thread, and the fact the thread was removed, then replaced. I understand that. Any of us can delete our own posts. The distinction here is that if I post something and you quote it in your follow up, even if I subsequently decide to delete my post, the words will show up in the quote in your post. In this case, WWBG went in and cut out his post from my post - thereby removing the record. Nobody but a mod can do that and have it say "referenced deleted post". It wasn't done to be in compliance with the CoC or for any other legitimate reason a mod might do it, it was done to remove his own statement. Inappropriate.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 7, 2012 14:27:54 GMT -5
I've modified and deleted posts, and anyone who has quoted them still has the quote in their message - so, that is why WWBG is suspect.
I've seen posts where Moon says "Hey poster X, please edit your comment because you quoted something that is not CoC. If you don't edit, we will delete the whole post."
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 7, 2012 14:29:09 GMT -5
Those that quoted the post from WWBG did not quote his post in its entirety. So I would assume that they system would not have linked their partial quotes to the original post by him. Therefore he had to go into their posts, as only a mod can do, and delete his comments that the quote. Which is why everyone is upset. He was able to erase his comments only because he was a mod, if he wasn't a mod they would have remained quoted in those subsequent posts.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2012 14:29:47 GMT -5
Interesting theory, but in this case, it appears to have been done manually. The quote box shows "references deleted post", which is not language that reflects it was deleted by the original writer. If one were suspicious, one might even guess that this particular language "references deleted post" was used to imply that the original post was removed because it violated the CoC, not because someone realized he'd just eaten his toes. A mod can weigh in on this but I think the only difference is if a mod deleted the post versus the poster. Not sure what happens if you are a mod and delete your own post. So I think in usual events if a mod deleted the post perhaps the entire entry is gone? Then the software kicks out the references deleted post because that post entry tag is now invalid? Don't know. I guess a mod would have the ability to delete the post like us regular folk or totally remove the post entry entirely. I agree the latter is probably bad style unless done by another mod? As I've said, I cannot delete a post and leave no trace. I wouldn't want to do so. That applies to my posts as well as anyone else's posts. This thread is giving us the opportunity to answer questions and communicate some of the ways things are done, and the quirks associated with ProBoards. That, I think, is a good thing.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 7, 2012 14:30:10 GMT -5
Interesting theory, but in this case, it appears to have been done manually. The quote box shows "references deleted post", which is not language that reflects it was deleted by the original writer. If one were suspicious, one might even guess that this particular language "references deleted post" was used to imply that the original post was removed because it violated the CoC, not because someone realized he'd just eaten his toes. A mod can weigh in on this but I think the only difference is if a mod deleted the post versus the poster. Not sure what happens if you are a mod and delete your own post. So I think in usual events if a mod deleted the post perhaps the entire entry is gone? Then the software kicks out the references deleted post because that post entry tag is now invalid? Don't know. I guess a mod would have the ability to delete the post like us regular folk or totally remove the post entry entirely. I agree the latter is probably bad style unless done by another mod? check out mmhmm's explanation a little further up the page, Opti. when a mod deletes a post as a poster, it's the same as if you were to delete your own content. it just goes away, not recorded anywhere. hope that helps ETA: looks like mmhmm's on top of replying too. and I concur, being able to better explain the "how things work" about this place is absolutely a good thing.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 7, 2012 14:31:24 GMT -5
Yes - but then he modified other people's posts - something other posters can not do. didn't he modify it on a deleted thread, or am i misunderstanding what happened?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Aug 7, 2012 14:31:41 GMT -5
So, is WWBG on a forced posting vacation, or a self-imputed time out? Why is he not here? Was there actual punishment of him and his actions? What punishment would be sufficient for a bad remark? Should this be translated for any remark that is found to be offensive? Just because you dislike the opinion of a poster (whether Moderator or Poster) does not mean that it is a "punishable" offense. You (both specifically and the general sense) have zero right nor need to know if, when or what punishments are handed out. If a poster is permaband some Mod's will tell posters in general any other falls in the none of your business category. cme1201 - Moderator P&M Engaging in conversatons in a confrontational manner is exactly what mods should not do. Most of our current mods are very guilty of this.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 7, 2012 14:31:52 GMT -5
This isn't that complicated. Nobody here is upset that WWBG deleted his own post. That's fine. They're upset that he also deleted the parts of his post that were quoted by other people. Editing/deleting your own posts. Fine. Editing/deleting other people's posts to cover your own gaffe, not fine. Seems pretty simple really.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 14:32:54 GMT -5
Yes, but in addition to deleting his own post (totally legitimate action), he went in and deleted a portion of my post (not kosher.) mmhmm says that mods that delete are supposed to cut and paste the deleted parts into a file so they can be reviewed if necessary.
It's necessary.
I'm asking you to retrieve what was deleted from my post. My post. Not WWBG's. Mine. Post 327.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:19 GMT -5
Let's make a delineation here. If I delete someone else's post, I'll copy and paste that post to my deletes. If I make a post as a moderator, I won't delete it, at all. If, however, a moderator is posting as a poster (posts are not signed), they're as entitled as anyone else to delete their posts. I'm sure you don't copy the posts you decide to delete. I don't copy the posts I decide to delete if they've been posted in my position as poster, not moderator. I don't know whether that was the case here but, as deminmaine pointed out, if it was WWBG may not have kept copies of his own words, posted as a poster, not a moderator. I realize it's a sticky wicket in this case, because of all the consternation aroused by this particular thread, and the fact the thread was removed, then replaced. I understand that. Any of us can delete our own posts. The distinction here is that if I post something and you quote it in your follow up, even if I subsequently decide to delete my post, the words will show up in the quote in your post. In this case, WWBG went in and cut out his post from my post - thereby removing the record. Nobody but a mod can do that and have it say "referenced deleted post". It wasn't done to be in compliance with the CoC or for any other legitimate reason a mod might do it, it was done to remove his own statement. Inappropriate. I do see your point. It's not really something I can speak to, as I've never had something like this come up, and this wasn't my hayride. I do wonder, since it's done now, the thread is back (albeit, minus some material), and we're making every effort to answer your questions and concerns as honestly as we can within the confines of our involvement in the issue, might it not be best to simply let it go and move onward. Hopefully, we've all learned something from this.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:26 GMT -5
WWBG did leave a trace. He edited other's posts. Also, MU's posts are gone without a trace. It is easy to find a thread that he started, and the first post is now someone else clearly answering a questions. For example - the cost of first dates. I know Swamp did not start this thread by announcing she was married. It was started by MU, and there is absolutely no trace. www.notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=finance&action=display&thread=25167&page=1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:36 GMT -5
I blame the Illuminati.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:46 GMT -5
We had (and insofar as I know, have) no clear policy on whether quotes of a deleted post can be deleted. Proboards' view of things is clearly that a poster "owns" all of the content he/she publishes. By extension, this would include verbatim copies of the original content.
As we have pointed out: any poster, current or banned, has the right to demand that admin delete all of their posts.
From a functional standpoint, we must consider that denying a moderator the ability to remove their own quoted content, or to remove the quoted content of another poster by request, fundamentally undermines the ability to delete a post. A deletion is useless if publicly viewable carbon copies of the content cannot also be deleted.
Requests by posters to delete their own (quoted) content would presumably be rare. I doubt the ability would be abused. And if we take Proboards' view of things, it is the user's (and the moderator's) right to delete the content of their posts, even if that content happens to appear in somebody else's reply. The caveat being that the deleted, quoted content must be marked with an appropriate "deleted content" message—which WWBG did.
This is my view, at any rate. We'll have to have a discussion on it and codify it.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:49 GMT -5
I was offended when you posted meow because it was not apparent that it was to bump the page. Please be aware of what you are saying and that this is the internet. I can't hear your inflection behind your words. I can add my own, but they may not be what you would be saying.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:51 GMT -5
Just because you dislike the opinion of a poster (whether Moderator or Poster) does not mean that it is a "punishable" offense. cme1201 - Moderator P&M
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 14:33:52 GMT -5
Yes - but then he modified other people's posts - something other posters can not do. didn't he modify it on a deleted thread, or am i misunderstanding what happened? Hard to know. The deletion happened when I was gone. I am willing to accept the mods' explanation that WWBG did that before the thread was locked and removed, but I didn't see it so don't know.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 7, 2012 14:34:36 GMT -5
If you find that he did modify other posts, will there be appropriate action?
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 7, 2012 14:34:45 GMT -5
<<waits paitently to see how many more mods show up to defend their brethren>>
<<this post in no way suggests that I promote relations with underage girls>>
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 7, 2012 14:35:57 GMT -5
What punishment would be sufficient for a bad remark? Should this be translated for any remark that is found to be offensive? Just because you dislike the opinion of a poster (whether Moderator or Poster) does not mean that it is a "punishable" offense. You (both specifically and the general sense) have zero right nor need to know if, when or what punishments are handed out. If a poster is permaband some Mod's will tell posters in general any other falls in the none of your business category. cme1201 - Moderator P&M Engaging in conversatons in a confrontational manner is exactly what mods should not do. Most of our current mods are very guilty of this. wow, I agreed with Loop and CME all in the same day!!
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2012 14:36:32 GMT -5
Yes, but in addition to deleting his own post (totally legitimate action), he went in and deleted a portion of my post (not kosher.) mmhmm says that mods that delete are supposed to cut and paste the deleted parts into a file so they can be reviewed if necessary. It's necessary. I'm asking you to retrieve what was deleted from my post. My post. Not WWBG's. Mine. Post 327. The words WWBG purportedly deleted were his own, were they not? Wasn't it his own post(s) that was being quoted and that he deleted, without deleting any of your typed content? If so, that's a grey area as I see it. It's never come up before, and it's something we probably need to take a look at. I'm glad this has brought it out.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 7, 2012 14:37:42 GMT -5
Yay. Another mod swoops and and tells the peons to mind their own business. Not helpful at this time.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 7, 2012 14:38:34 GMT -5
Conversely, a reader who is aware they are unable to hear inflections, tone, etc., might want to attempt to keep themselves from jumping to conclusions and actually ask what the poster meant. I say this because I was often misunderstood because I failed to post the indicating I was joking. Just ask.
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Aug 7, 2012 14:38:52 GMT -5
What punishment would be sufficient for a bad remark? Should this be translated for any remark that is found to be offensive? Just because you dislike the opinion of a poster (whether Moderator or Poster) does not mean that it is a "punishable" offense. You (both specifically and the general sense) have zero right nor need to know if, when or what punishments are handed out. If a poster is permaband some Mod's will tell posters in general any other falls in the none of your business category. cme1201 - Moderator P&M Engaging in conversatons in a confrontational manner is exactly what mods should not do. Most of our current mods are very guilty of this. Well I think that only a couple are very guilty of it. Most are a little guilty of it. Some are hardly guilty of it. If that's considered mod-bashing, please someone please delete it from this and all subsequent threads (however it is quoted). So WWBG deleted his post and then deleted the post from other people's posts that would have been deleted if they'd used the quote function that was set up by Proboards? Good for him. I know there's times when I've wished I could erase all history of a stupid thing I'd said. Well-deserved perk of having to deal with all the crap that a mod deals with here. IMHO of course.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 7, 2012 14:40:35 GMT -5
It has never come up before, because a mod wasn't abusing power before. Unfortunately, because you guys are all in "mod-mode" you can't see how this is a problem.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 14:41:12 GMT -5
I understand that. Any of us can delete our own posts. The distinction here is that if I post something and you quote it in your follow up, even if I subsequently decide to delete my post, the words will show up in the quote in your post. In this case, WWBG went in and cut out his post from my post - thereby removing the record. Nobody but a mod can do that and have it say "referenced deleted post". It wasn't done to be in compliance with the CoC or for any other legitimate reason a mod might do it, it was done to remove his own statement. Inappropriate. I do see your point. It's not really something I can speak to, as I've never had something like this come up, and this wasn't my hayride. I do wonder, since it's done now, the thread is back (albeit, minus some material), and we're making every effort to answer your questions and concerns as honestly as we can within the confines of our involvement in the issue, might it not be best to simply let it go and move onward. Hopefully, we've all learned something from this. I really do appreciate all you've done to work with this issue - and us - in a thoughtful, reasonable manner. I'm trying to do the same. It is incredibly helpful to have the original wording because that's the only way people can read and judge for themself what was said or if the reactions were valid. Reasonable people can and do disagree. In this case, I'm still not sure if there was a disagreement that could have been resolved with a little more discussion or if it was hopelessly gone. We will never know though, because of the removal of the thread and subsequent editing. I don't think it's a moot point because this won't be the last time the Board gets into a heated discussion and it would be good to have some agreement as to how the Board operates.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 7, 2012 14:41:17 GMT -5
Yes, but in addition to deleting his own post (totally legitimate action), he went in and deleted a portion of my post (not kosher.) mmhmm says that mods that delete are supposed to cut and paste the deleted parts into a file so they can be reviewed if necessary. It's necessary. I'm asking you to retrieve what was deleted from my post. My post. Not WWBG's. Mine. Post 327. The words WWBG purportedly deleted were his own, were they not? Wasn't it his own post(s) that was being quoted and that he deleted, without deleting any of your typed content? If so, that's a grey area as I see it. It's never come up before, and it's something we probably need to take a look at. I'm glad this has brought it out. I believe milee's issue is that she can't go into *this post* and delete what I have quoted her as saying. But a mod can go into her post...and did go into her post...and did delete things that he had said...in order to cover his own "rear-end"... <<this post in no way suggests that I promote relations with underage girls>>
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Aug 7, 2012 14:43:00 GMT -5
You're quite right that I should not have said "most," but "many" is not an understatement. I've only interacted with 7 or so mods and 6 of them are guilty of it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 7, 2012 14:45:21 GMT -5
Not only that, but I was accused by a mod of deliberately misquoting WWBG. Difficult to defend oneself if the mods can then perform their own cleanup.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Aug 7, 2012 14:46:08 GMT -5
It has never come up before, because a mod wasn't abusing power before. Unfortunately, because you guys are all in "mod-mode" you can't see how this is a problem. Thyme she indicated that we should probably take a look at it going forward, and I'm sure we will. If a poster deleted a post of theirs, and asked me to delete where it was quoted elsewhere I would probably comply. I might think twice or ask a second opinion after this imbroglio, but in the past I would have seen no reason not to. I think the issue is that we have to ask permission (and can possibly be denied) and a mod does not have to ask another mod
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2012 14:47:22 GMT -5
If you find that he did modify other posts, will there be appropriate action? How can I answer that, thyme? I'm one of the moderators. That's all. I don't make policy. We do discuss things amongst ourselves, but that's all.
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