raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 30, 2012 11:54:21 GMT -5
There seems to be the assumption that everyone is 'equal' in terms of ability and intelligence and mental health and that everyone reaches some level of self actualization (they've realized they have choices and CAN change somethings about themselves -- I've talked with people who seem to resigned to their 'fate' in life... they seem to have a plethora of excuses for why they can't do X or can't have Y or will never be Z. ) I suspect that there are things holding some people back from getting out of poverty - and it isn't always a matter of changing one's attitude or getting more education. That attitude isn't anything new. There were those people in my grandparents and parents generation as well. So I don't think that accounts for increased violence amongst poverty.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 30, 2012 11:54:25 GMT -5
There seems to be the assumption that everyone is 'equal' in terms of ability and intelligence and mental health and that everyone reaches some level of self actualizationAre there no prisons, are there no workhouses? For those that would rather die than work there they better do it and decrease the surplus population! Sorry, that's what I hear every time YM gets on a "poor people suck" rant.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 13:16:06 GMT -5
There are poor people, who through bad luck like health issues, are generally poorly off. Then there the kind that makes their own bad choices and wonders why they are poorly off. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks dropping out of high school is the way to future success but for some, it's a way of life. I have no sympathy for someone who willingly makes a bad choice and then feels entitled to my tax dollars.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 13:19:59 GMT -5
Bad choices aside - say you were in my situation (just graduated, no job, no car, no place to live) but didn't have any family support.
What do you do?
My point was that it's VERY easy to say "get a job," but when that requires finding a place to live, finding transportation, and not having the money for either, it becomes more of a platitude than actual useful advice.
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zdaddy
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Post by zdaddy on Jul 30, 2012 13:22:08 GMT -5
Maybe I'm mistaken but I keep hearing that the overall violent crime rate has continued to drop for several years now, straight through the recession. Prison numbers keep going up because of our pointless drug war. Legalize marijuana at the very least and you'll see a huge drop in both prison inmates and street crime IMHO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 13:30:24 GMT -5
I often hear "just move" on this very board.
I have no savings, no cash currently at all (spending my last $20 today on water to get us through till the 3rd when IF SS fixes my DS's account then I will get paid again.)
I have two paychecks sitting in my desk for this next month and if SS delays in paying us too long, I will have to use that to pay the electrical bill and buy some basic groceries.
I have a PAID OFF house. My housing is less than $200 a month for taxes and homeowner's insurance. But, due to the contamination of my well water, my property isn't easily sellable and moving isn't really possible without freeing up my equity...
If I am going to be stuck working for low wages, I am going to do it working from home. No commute costs. No clothing costs. And, I have very low housing costs. And, I can just keep driving my gas-hog truck to the store twice a month and to run errands. No need for a car for myself to commute anywhere or the gas to do so.
One of my WAH jobs pays me between $5 an hour and $15, depending on the amount of work available. Another gig I do is between $5 and $10, so I do whatever offers me the highest pay that day. I set a goal and work until I meet that goal. Some days I can do it in 6 hours and some days it takes me 12.
I have another gig starting in Sept that pays $10-15 an hour and you can do as much work as you want. I am counting on this gig to finally be able to get enough cash to buy another beater so DS can finally get his license and a job.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 30, 2012 13:30:52 GMT -5
Well, in the case of lining up a job in the oil fields, that could be handled over the internet. I wouldn't just go there either. I've moved twice for work, but both times had jobs lined up.
The only problem with a welfare kid getting a high school job is that it interferes with mom's welfare, or at least it did at some point. Don't know what to do about that situation. But if you aren't in that pickle and there are high school jobs available, then there isn't much excuse for a kid to graduate high school with no work experience.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 30, 2012 13:34:43 GMT -5
A paid off house depending on location isn't necessarily a huge asset. However, we've had this discussion before and I'm sure neither of us want to rehash it here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 13:35:06 GMT -5
My DS got a job and I immediately lost our food stamps because our "household" income is over the allotted amount. My income didn't change...
I have since lined up more work, but this month has been hard.
And, I would NEVER ask my high school aged son to contribute to the household income. I just won't.
The welfare office's suggestion was to have him not work... I refuse to teach that lesson to my kids, so we struggle and keep looking to improve our situation.
I have 2 more weeks of school and will have an AS degree for my resume. I have an additional WAH job, so we are making progress. But, it is very hard to have your benefits yanked because of teenager income.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 13:36:41 GMT -5
A paid off house depending on location isn't necessarily a huge asset. However, we've had this discussion before and I'm sure neither of us want to rehash it here. But, even if I move to a place with more jobs (like back to the Bay Area or somewhere similar) I am still going to be lower income and then have to pay for housing out of my limited income. For my situation, I just don't see how moving improves my life much.... Fixing my mental health symptoms so I can work more online, that fixes things a ton.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 30, 2012 13:37:29 GMT -5
My point was that it's VERY easy to say "get a job," but when that requires finding a place to live, finding transportation, and not having the money for either, it becomes more of a platitude than actual useful advice.
I agree. And multiply that exponentially if you have a family and/or children in your current area. I know we ragged on Doxie about this like there was no tomorrow (and yes, she was making excuses) but it IS difficult to uproot children and go to some other town, especially if you have family in the area to fall back on when things start to get really bad.
I "followed the jobs" when I was younger and it was fairly straightforward. A young healthy kid with a couple thousand to their name, decent credit and job skills, and some street smarts will probably land on their feet okay. But it wasn't easy even then, and I was in pretty easy circumstances all things considered.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 13:38:01 GMT -5
How? They won't want to drug test you, or interview you in person first? Hell, I couldn't even rent an apartment in NYC without showing my face (had to drive up on a Friday after work and drive back on Sunday).
Again, IT IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS SOME OF YOU SEEM TO THINK.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 30, 2012 13:38:27 GMT -5
I would agree that was the case when I was in highschool. However in the current economy I don't think that every kid can just walk into a dishwashing or bussing job like I did. When you have adults fighting over those jobs, the highschoolers get left in the cold. Why would an employer deal with a teenagers scheduling issues when they don't have to?
Obviously there are exceptions. My current job gets a lot of summer help from employees teenage kids. But the people working at the McD's by my house are 18+ with only 1 or 2 exceptions.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 30, 2012 13:39:30 GMT -5
My DS got a job and I immediately lost our food stamps because our "household" income is over the allotted amount. My income didn't change...
Well, it kind of changed, right? I think your DS is over 18* so there's no reason part of his wages couldn't go toward supporting the household - especially when the family is in dire straits like yours.
*If he's not, ignore this whole post. I don't think a 15 year old's income should count toward "household income."
I think that's the rationale behind the "household income" concept and it makes sense if you accept the premise that able-bodied adults in your household should be contributing to said household.
(Note, I'm not necessarily saying you should have lost your food stamps - at least not entirely and not right away. I wouldn't argue with them being phased out over time depending on your household income though. They don't know your family situation. They have to and should assume that a household with two working adults and one dependent requires fewer funds to feed itself than a household with one working adult with two dependents does.)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 30, 2012 13:41:34 GMT -5
Her working son is still in highschool.
That's a pretty tough way to not impart to the kids that not working is the better solution.
And go GPG for keeping at it. Your kids have a huge benefit to see you working so hard to improve your lives.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 30, 2012 13:42:29 GMT -5
A paid off house depending on location isn't necessarily a huge asset. However, we've had this discussion before and I'm sure neither of us want to rehash it here. But, even if I move to a place with more jobs (like back to the Bay Area or somewhere similar) I am still going to be lower income and then have to pay for housing out of my limited income. For my situation, I just don't see how moving improves my life much.... Fixing my mental health symptoms so I can work more online, that fixes things a ton. In your case (you are MtShastaWriter, right?) I would agree, simply because of what you've already been through. But again, nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to buy a house in an area with a terrible job market and where you'd have to travel for miles to get to anything. There are plenty of small cities in this country with a low cost of living, a decent job market. But they aren't in vacation spots with stunning scenery and perfect weather. Even without the water problems, moving to the area you chose was a huge mistake. I can see how it would happen, considering all you were going through at the time, but for most of us, things don't get better until we own up to the bone headed decisions we've made.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 30, 2012 13:42:53 GMT -5
Her working son is still in highschool.
IMO his income shouldn't be counted until he's over 18. Probably "out of high school" should also be part of the criteria. Can't expect a HS student to get a full time job.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 13:44:42 GMT -5
Well, absent a time machine, not much can be done about that now.
It's a lot easier to do Monday-morning quarterbacking than provide constructive advice. (I'm not exempt from this either - I don't really have any advice, but then, I'm not criticizing past decisions she can't change.)
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 13:45:48 GMT -5
Message deleted by MidJD.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 13:47:33 GMT -5
Yes, said son is still in HS. He will be a Sr. this coming year. He is working to save for college and so that he can drive.
When I get another car for the other DS to drive, we will lose our Medicaid coverage because cars are considered to be an asset...
I don't really know what the answers are. I would love to have an advanced degree and the ability to earn a higher income. However, at my age that means student loans and more income lost due to school. I don't want to go this route, so I am working on setting up my life to require the least amount of cash possible and saving the rest.
I knew when we moved here that this was a hard place to earn a living and I would likely end up having to work from him to make it here. I am perfectly willing to do that and there are plenty of opportunities to work online, but it requires a lot of time and dedication to always lining up new work and having multiple gigs for when times are slow or companies abruptly end projects without warning.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 30, 2012 13:47:52 GMT -5
...and I'll throw a wrench into this discussion and say that I do think a working teenager's wages should affect household income... flame away...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 13:54:46 GMT -5
The problem with working teens income counting, is that you get what happens commonly in my area - people's teenagers don't work because then their parents lose benefits. Which just helps keep people on assistance longer.
While my older DS was in school he literally couldn't work or we would have lost the Medicaid coverage helping to pay for DH's dialysis... Without Medicaid he would have been totally screwed. So, DS couldn't work. And, this meant he also couldn't get his license because we couldn't afford to add him to our insurance.
This has helped make my current situation worse because now I can't afford to get a car for DS to drive, or his insurance, and he is now older and has no work experience which will make it even harder for him to get a job...
The day my DH passed, I lost 1/3rd of our income. Three months later I lost another 1/2 of what remained. We had no savings. Partly because with Medicaid we cannot save any money or it is considered fraud.
It's a giant cluster. And, I fully admit at least partly of our own making, but also partly not of our making. We couldn't live in the Bay Area with DH not bringing in an income. We moved to a lower COL area because we were going to lose our house if we didn't...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 13:58:36 GMT -5
GPG, you can't change the past. All you can do is keep on trucking and making the right decisions for your future. You're getting there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 14:14:22 GMT -5
Thanks Mid. It is a process.
I do believe that there are many people in my situation where they have mental health issues and this effects their judgement, choices and options. And, with the lack of available care, that helps exacerbate the problems. I know one of the biggest reasons for my recent agreement for medication was income generation. I simply can't flounder around anymore and need to be able to function to earn income.
I think there should be some sort of graduation in welfare programs. I also think that if you want to keep people from being in a generational welfare situation, then there should be allowances for working teenagers.
I also think there should be some sort of exception for the EITC. If you don't spend it within 60 days, then it becomes "assitized" and counts against you for welfare programs. This makes people go out and spend it without using it for the intended purpose of helping lower income folks throughout the year.
If you cash the EITC check and stash the cash, you are considered to be fraudulent for programs like Medicaid and FS when you have to tell them how much cash you have on hand.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 30, 2012 14:17:12 GMT -5
I think there should be some sort of graduation in welfare programs. I also think that if you want to keep people from being in a generational welfare situation, then there should be allowances for working teenagers.
Totally agree with that. "All or nothing" really paints people in situations like yours into a corner.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2012 14:45:37 GMT -5
So what? People leave those kind of jobs all the time. It's meant to be temporary. As far as moving with no job. Why would you do that anyway? You move to where there are jobs. Broke HS graduate? You didn't work in high school and save any money? One of the YM mantras is "if there are no jobs where you are, move to where the jobs are." As a new COLLEGE graduate, the area around my parents' house was in a serious recession, more so than most of the rest of the country. I had a couple thousand bucks from working part time through college. So how exactly does one pick up and move to a place that has a lot of jobs, when you don't have a lot of money? Take a bus there and live in a shelter and hope something comes through soon? And when your money runs out, you're now broke in a strange place with no friends or family? I think the posters that talk about how 'everyone can find a job if they want one' must not have ever been unemployed for any length of time at all. In that, they are very lucky, and I hope they don't have to experience all the emotions that go along with being unemployed and poor.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 30, 2012 14:54:06 GMT -5
One of Loop's exes moved to the bay area from North Carolina. He slept in a tent on the beach.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 30, 2012 15:00:11 GMT -5
Back on the original subject, I don't think there is anything about poverty that leads to violence. Even today, there are parts of the country where the population is dirt poor and well armed and there is almost no violent crime. And it's not like there isn't any kind of drug trading going on in those places or they don't have access to TV. But people in those areas just have very different attitudes towards law enforcement and personal responsibility.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 15:02:11 GMT -5
As a 100lb woman who can sleep through a fire alarm, I'd be very uncomfortable doing that. It might work for DH, though.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 30, 2012 15:06:06 GMT -5
I don't think male and female really matters that much, when it comes to moving to a tent on the beach, I don't think the word comfortable applies to anybody.
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