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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 8:13:18 GMT -5
Poverty leads to violence? Perhaps. But, what leads to poverty? Yes, there are some people who have a tough row to hoe. But, in reality, it is often the result of poor life choices as well. Not working hard and doing the right things by man, God, and society. If we valued hard work, discipline and honor, we would probably see different results. Instead, we are telling the upcoming generation not to value those things. We are telling them to "get rich quick". Invent some scam that some dope will pay for and make money quick and live the good life. We tell them, why wait? YOLO and and all of that. Can you really blame kids for going down the wrong path? We tell people who work at less than glamorous jobs that their jobs are crappy McJobs and we denigrate Walmart greeters. So, why should kids work when we tell them we only value the work of people in certain fields?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2012 8:27:25 GMT -5
But nothing was said about a woman who had 12 kids and no way to support them. Or the father that made them and then abandoned them as well. Trouble is when you give someone something, they have no incentive to keep it nice. Like another poster said, someone who is working2-3 jobs to keep food on the table doesn't have time to make more babies or get into trouble. Instead of 16 year olds hanging out on street corners, they can be baby-sitting their siblings while parents work or working themselves to hep out the family. According to the documentary the downtown part of St Louis was in a major decline during these years. They had a lot of poor Southern blacks moving north to the cities hoping to find a better life, but unable to land a job when they got there. They had historical footage of an interview with a man who had been searching for work for a year, since he had arrived there, and he said he was constantly putting in applications and was willing to do any kind of work, but no one had hired him. (I felt bad for him, because he started to cry when the interviewer asked him about his wife and two kids). All the jobs were being sucked out of the downtown area, moving into office parks in the suburbs, which killed not only the office areas downtown, but the retail and restaurant business that thrived on their business. The poor people couldn't afford cars so they were limited on where they could apply for jobs, and the suburbs were aggressively segregated so a poor person couldn't move out there and find an apartment near a restaurant or store. And when these people moved away from their home towns in order to move to the cities, they moved away from their support system, their friends and families that helped each other out in a crisis, and watched each other's kids. Urban planners have since then realized that rather than building huge projects with thousands of poor people all piled together in an area with no jobs, you need to build mixed housing in retail and light industrial neighborhoods where there are jobs within walking distance of the poor. It's easier said than done, though, because home owners are still resistant to having poor people live near them for fear they will bring down the property values. In our city, we have all the high end real estate grouped in the swanky part of town where they have lots of restaurants, bars, retail and tourist activities - but no housing cheap enough a poor person could afford it. However, we do have buses so they can commute, at least.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 8:28:07 GMT -5
My grandma, her daughters, me and my cousins all picked in the fields right along with the migrant workers for extra money. My grandma did it to survive and my mom and aunts did it so they'd have school clothes. When they all got to be 16 then it was cannery work and my grandma did that, too. When you were 18, you worked for the state. It was a natural order of things. If you were poor you had a garden you canned, you worked a job or two. No one handed you Anything and you would have been ashamed to take it. Now if you aren't on the dole, you feel screwed because those on the dole live nicer than you do and you work for it. The dole needs to stop, period. A very limited time, say the same 26 weeks that unemployment should be, then never again for at least 10 years. Plus, you should be at least 21 before you can apply for either one.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 8:30:14 GMT -5
Trouble is that the poor bring crime with them and bad behaviors. I don't want that either so I would move away as well.who the hell moves with no job? I see stupidity was going on even then.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 8:31:06 GMT -5
I wish they had been started in the sixties, then you wouldn't have the mess we have now. When govt became daddy, it was bad news for families.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 9:09:16 GMT -5
Yup, forgot about how we fund those who buy votes.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2012 9:11:10 GMT -5
My grandma, her daughters, me and my cousins all picked in the fields right along with the migrant workers for extra money. My grandma did it to survive and my mom and aunts did it so they'd have school clothes. When they all got to be 16 then it was cannery work and my grandma did that, too. When you were 18, you worked for the state. It was a natural order of things. If you were poor you had a garden you canned, you worked a job or two. No one handed you Anything and you would have been ashamed to take it. Now if you aren't on the dole, you feel screwed because those on the dole live nicer than you do and you work for it. The dole needs to stop, period. A very limited time, say the same 26 weeks that unemployment should be, then never again for at least 10 years. Plus, you should be at least 21 before you can apply for either one. Here's the problem. When times are bad, jobs are hard to land. It's simple supply and demand. I get really pissed when people casually say "Oh, if you want to work you can always find a job." No, no you can't. I graduated with a 3.6 GPA in a STEM type job during the recession of 1982. The city I was living in was flooded with people with both my education and lots of experience as a major employer had just recently folded. So I moved back home several states away, living with family while I mailed out a blizzard of resumes. Tried to get hired on a fast food places, at retail places - no dice (over educated). Every job in my field had people in line in front of my with experience. I moved around, I went on interviews, I sent out resumes, I applied for anything that let me put in an application, doing any kind of work, and finally, after 9 months, landed a job 9 hours away from home, in a very rural area, for a fairly low rate of pay, given my degree. I snapped it up. I was not a lazy or immoral person. I really wanted to work. I would have done anything legal. The longer I had to look for work, the more depressed I became (which I think negatively affected how well I interviewed). The jobs simply were not there - and I was a middle class kid with a college education. Imagine if you're a poor kid from a bad neighborhood - how many jobs are you going to find open for you in this economy, no matter how interested you are in working? So I don't go along with the idea that if we just cut off benefits everyone will rush out and find a job tomorrow. The jobs just aren't there. Especially if you don't have a car, and especially if the place where you live is destitute.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 9:19:32 GMT -5
Trouble is that the poor bring crime with them and bad behaviors. I don't want that either so I would move away as well.who the hell moves with no job? I see stupidity was going on even then. Don't YM posters regularly advise people that can't find jobs in their current location to relocate?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 9:22:21 GMT -5
Move to where there are jobs. I don't want to live in ND either but if that was the only place I could get a job, I'm there.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2012 9:23:58 GMT -5
Trouble is that the poor bring crime with them and bad behaviors. I don't want that either so I would move away as well.who the hell moves with no job? I see stupidity was going on even then. The poor have crime and bad behaviors when they're warehoused in poor neighborhoods with minimal police presence and no job prospects.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 9:24:58 GMT -5
The jobs are there, just no one wants to do them. I told the story earlier about a friend of mine with a college degree and her husband divorced her. She hadn't worked outside the home for years. Before the divorce was final she had trained as a CNA. Did she like doing it? Hell, no, but it paid a paycheck a nd it provided her health insurance. Within a year, she was managing the nursing home, the opportunities are there for anyone to take if they want to. But if you just want to sit around, uncle sugar makes it easy for you to do so. That is just wrong.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 9:26:40 GMT -5
The jobs are around. Just don't choose to work them. Why work for minimum wage at MCDs and be made fun of when you can run drugs? Or spew out babies.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 9:27:49 GMT -5
Whose fault is it that they Are warehoused? Yours? Mine? Or theirs? Who chooses not to work and provide better for themselves?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 9:28:54 GMT -5
You see some families and they live a lot of people to the house and all contribute to a better lifestyle for the younger ones. You see others who live off the efforts of others while they sit around. Who is going to get ahead?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 30, 2012 10:15:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't have made the mistake of listing my education after the first failure. ...here's the rub on this point... ...many or most apps have that pesky "all the above info is true to the best of my knowledge" clause by your sig... you leave off any formal education, which always get discovered, and then you're toast due to dishonesty... ...rock/hard place...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 10:23:06 GMT -5
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 30, 2012 10:33:25 GMT -5
...when we were in a RiF-stricken town, many of us were competing for retail, food, etc.... and they asked us for highest education... so it could be a crap shoot... ...thankfully, we ended up finding bosses who took a chance on us grad students...
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 30, 2012 10:39:47 GMT -5
Somehow I bet if we started a thread about someone losing a job over dishonesty on the application YM would tell that poster that they got what they deserved and that if they were truly moral, they never would have taken such steps...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 11:09:58 GMT -5
I think it's different than lying about credentials you don't have.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2012 11:18:13 GMT -5
Move to where there are jobs. I don't want to live in ND either but if that was the only place I could get a job, I'm there. OK, take my case. Broke college student graduated with nice STEM degree and great GPA - but flat broke. I moved around between family members in different states putting in applications and hoping to find areas where the recession hadn't hit to hard. But I couldn't pick and move someplace where I had no family because I was FLAT BROKE. I believe some people on here are pretty nasty to people who pick up and move to a new town without first having a job there. It's even worse if you pick up and move to a new town hoping to find a job when you have no money at all to begin with. And I was lucky - I had a college degree and I did find a job, ultimately, even if it was one far away and not paying all that well - but it lead eventually to a great career. Telling a broke HS graduate from a housing project that he should pick up and move to the backside of the moon where he knows no one and has no job - just on the hope that the employment options are better - I think most YM people would say that was a dumb move.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 30, 2012 11:22:07 GMT -5
I think it's different than lying about credentials you don't have. The fast food places that wouldn't consider hiring me told me they didn't hire college grads because they would leave the minute they had a better job offer and they didn't want to waste their time training someone who would leave so quickly. I'm betting if they found out I lied and actually had a 4 year degree I would have been out on my ass so they didn't have to waste any more training time on me - fast food places aren't known for being sympathetic employers. I knew someone who got fired for failing to report for an employee meeting - that was scheduled at the last minute and that no one bothered to tell him about.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 11:26:35 GMT -5
So what? People leave those kind of jobs all the time. It's meant to be temporary. As far as moving with no job. Why would you do that anyway? You move to where there are jobs. Broke HS graduate? You didn't work in high school and save any money?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2012 11:27:20 GMT -5
Or join the military. It's a way out for a lot of people.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 30, 2012 11:31:17 GMT -5
Zib should set up her own consulting company and fix all poor people's problems since she can foresee and avoid all negative consequences. Charge a % of future earnings, and you'll be rolling in it for retirement.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jul 30, 2012 11:35:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I would bet their turnover rate with non-grads isn't that spectacular either. I would much rather have a "professional" working for me, knowing that they may leave when they get another opportunity. Because from what I have seen, they act professionally and do the job well while they are there. Much better than someone who's highest aspiration in life is to make it to shift manager.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 30, 2012 11:38:02 GMT -5
Or join the military. It's a way out for a lot of people. ...but they're RiFing, too...
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 30, 2012 11:38:36 GMT -5
Hah!
It is very, very difficult to start from scratch. I've posted about my experience before, but I moved from a very HCOLA to a LCOLA without having a job lined up. There were very few jobs in the HCOLA, either, and we couldn't support ourselves on DH's salary alone.
If we hadn't been able to stay with ILs, and if MIL hadn't been kind enough to loan us $2K to buy a beater car we could use to commute, I really don't know what we would have done. You can't get a job without a home address, you can't get TO a job without a car in most areas, but you can't get the home or the car without some money. And no bank will lend to you without a job. You can't even get a 3000% APR payday loan under those circumstances.
So what do you do? "Just get a job" is a hell of a lot easier said than done, especially when you're starting from nothing and don't have family to fall back on, and maybe don't have the talents or intelligence that most YM posters display.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 30, 2012 11:39:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I would bet their turnover rate with non-grads isn't that spectacular either. I would much rather have a "professional" working for me, knowing that they may leave when they get another opportunity. Because from what I have seen, they act professionally and do the job well while they are there. Much better than someone who's highest aspiration in life is to make it to shift manager. ...aww... ...by any chance were you the manager at the Burker King that hired (and saved) our over-educated butts?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 30, 2012 11:46:07 GMT -5
There seems to be the assumption that everyone is 'equal' in terms of ability and intelligence and mental health and that everyone reaches some level of self actualization (they've realized they have choices and CAN change somethings about themselves -- I've talked with people who seem to resigned to their 'fate' in life... they seem to have a plethora of excuses for why they can't do X or can't have Y or will never be Z. )
I suspect that there are things holding some people back from getting out of poverty - and it isn't always a matter of changing one's attitude or getting more education.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 30, 2012 11:51:45 GMT -5
So what do you do? "Just get a job" is a hell of a lot easier said than done, especially when you're starting from nothing and don't have family to fall back on, and maybe don't have the talents or intelligence that most YM posters display. It's definitely not as simple as we make it sound. And you have to be willing to tune out a LOT of negativity if you're trying to move up in the world. When I dropped out of college and moved to NYC, I was making more than 70% of my college-educated friends within a year. Granted, I was lucky and landed a good job. But when I landed that job, tons of people told me I was underqualified and wouldn't be able to handle it. Just one tiny example of the way that people do try to hold people back when they're trying to move up in the world. Even discounting all the other obstacles (many of which are more significant) it's hard to just say "screw it they're wrong" when everyone is telling you that you can't do more than what you are because you're not worth better than what you already have.
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