973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 27, 2012 14:08:13 GMT -5
This thread is for Miss Tequila. We were talking about living in a shooting gallery on another thread and the question came up as to why poor areas tend to be so violent.
I, 973 ;D, remember as a kid going to poor areas where some relatives lived but they weren't areas with a lot of voilence just poor/uneducated people who worked hard for what little they had. Somehow in the past 20-30 years poor areas seem to be breeding grounds for violence. Any ideas?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:17:04 GMT -5
Thanks Beach! What you are describing is pretty much my childhood...don't get me wrong, it was no peaches and roses...but most of the people were just lazy asses in the government housing where I lived...I lived there for 10 years and in those 10 years there was not one shooting, stabbing, etc. I'm sure someone got knocked around now and then but taht was in. My next door neighbor was a pot dealer but she was just a happy, mellow person What I have noticed is in the last 15 or so years we have had quite a bit of transplants from Philly and NYC and they ahve brought a lot of violence with them. We do have shootings locally now and most are drug related and the majority involve people from Philly or NYC. Just a few weeks ago we had 3 teenagers (well, I thnk one was 21) gunned down and before they even found the guys that shot them, I said "I bet they are from Philly and I bet I won't be able to pronounce their names'....they were both from Philly and the one I couldn't pronounce his name. And the shooter was 16 years old and his 18 year old brother was with him. And the 18 year old brother was shot in the leg in a drug deal gone bad two years ago when he was 16! So what has change that the poor are now violent? Or have the big cities always been violent and they are now they are migrating to my blue collar county?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jul 27, 2012 14:20:44 GMT -5
I think in some of those areas there is a real desperation leading to robbery and so on. Beyond that I think most of the violence can be tied to illegal activity whether its weapons, drugs or girls here.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 14:23:10 GMT -5
I think there is a high level of frustration if you can't get what you want - especially if those things seem reasonable (like, a meal, a bag of groceries, a pair of shoes that don't have holes in them, etc.) Frustration can easily turn to anger and violence.
If you are on assistance, you might feel like you are not in control of your own life, because you have to live by their rules, and fill out their forms, and prove this and that. You might feel trapped. If you don't understand the process to breaking out of the cycle, you are a caged.
Third - probably just a general feeling of satisfaction. People feel good when they are good at something. They have something they can be proud of. They have an accomplishment. If you suck at sports and don't sing or dance or rap, or whatever, and you don't do well in school - your outlook probably doesn't make you want to look in the mirror everyday and high 5 yourself. These feelings - depression, lack of control, frustration - can all lead to anger, which can lead to violence.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 27, 2012 14:23:18 GMT -5
The drug trade. There's a lot of money on the line, so you have to protect your suppliers, your distribution points, etc., etc. We're talking about a completely unregulated market that's in the tens to hundreds of billions annually. It's one of the few ways that kids growing up in the ghetto have real life examples of people making a lot of money.
We had the same thing happen with alcohol prohibition. In illegal markets the most ruthless group/gang/individual rises to the top, and if you want to dethrone him you have to be just as ruthless.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:26:13 GMT -5
So Dark, do you think legalizing drugs would cut down on the violence?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 27, 2012 14:27:56 GMT -5
Yeah. You don't see the Coors distributors shooting the Bud distributors when they pass each other on the street do ya?
There would still be drug related crime that wouldn't go down. A tweaker in need of a fix will still snatch purses, burglarize homes, or whatever to feed their habit.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:28:43 GMT -5
"You don't see the Coors distributors shooting the Bud distributors when they pass each other on the street do ya" From what I've been told by my beer drinking friends, the Coors distributors SHOULD be shot
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 27, 2012 14:29:15 GMT -5
My family were immigrants. They lived in a city that was pretty rundown and tenement apartments were the norm. I was an adult before I realized how derogatory the name tenement was, seriously. But they were also very proud and I remember wanting to watch as they scrubbed the sidewalks in front of their tenements. There was some violence back then but not shootings that I can remember. Maybe it is the guns in cities that are the difference. A brawl with fists is pretty different than guns as far as bystanders goes. IMO
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 14:30:31 GMT -5
I agree about legalizing at least marijuana.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:30:37 GMT -5
We had drugs 20 years ago though...so why didn't I see these problems back then? I'm not going to say we never had a murder in my county but it was usually the husband shoots wife type of thing...not two thugs from Philly gunning down 3 teenagers in the middle of the afternoon over a heroin deal gone bad. And if you look at these kids on teh news, they look like gangbangers...we never had that around here when I was growing up.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:31:37 GMT -5
"Maybe it is the guns in cities that are the difference. A brawl with fists is pretty different than guns as far as bystanders goes. "
Taht's how things were settled when I was growing up...when did kids start turning to guns?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 27, 2012 14:32:56 GMT -5
Were you still keeping all the poor in the projects 20 years ago? Part of giving them a Section 8 voucher and letting them move to the burbs is accepting that they're going to bring their problems, addictions, gang affiliations, and whatnot with them.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 14:35:08 GMT -5
All the kids in West Side Story were trying to stab each other with switchblades - and then the real show-off with the gun was able to run out and shoot Anthony.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:36:01 GMT -5
"Were you still keeping all the poor in the projects 20 years ago? Part of giving them a Section 8 voucher and letting them move to the burbs is accepting that they're going to bring their problems, addictions, gang affiliations, and whatnot with them. "
Actually, the problems around my area at least are IN the projects...the government housing where I grew up just had a shooting a few days ago...no one was injured...15 minutes later there was a shooting in another government housing project...cops are pretty sure they were related...no one was injured in either case...just bullets hitting two apartments.
The shooting that took place a few weeks ago that I talked about was not section 8 related...the 22 year old and his best friend rented an apartment and the younger brother was staying with them.
About 2 months ago, we had another shooting in yet ANOTHER government housing project...
So at this point, the thugs are at least staying in the projects...those that actually care about their safety and their children are trying to get out of the projects and using the vouchers to live amongst normal people.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:37:34 GMT -5
It wasn't until the infiltration of section 8 people from Philly that we started to see the bigger city issues...I kid you not, everytime there is drug related violence at least some of the peoople involved are from Philly...I just wish we could ship them back to Philly...
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 27, 2012 14:39:51 GMT -5
"Maybe it is the guns in cities that are the difference. A brawl with fists is pretty different than guns as far as bystanders goes. " Taht's how things were settled when I was growing up...when did kids start turning to guns? I don't know but Phila seems pretty violent lately. I used to want to live there but now all I hear about is the shootings of the day. It is not just in the really poor areas either. Maybe people are just not meant to live that crammed together? I know if the tourist season lasted longer than 12 weeks I couldn't be trusted with a gun not to shoot one of them.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 27, 2012 14:44:18 GMT -5
Oh, and other than the drug thing you have to keep in mind the type of people that are likely to wind up in poverty; addicts, drunks, abusers, people with a criminal record, mental illnesses, recent immigrants, etc. Domestic abuse is pretty common and becomes part of your normal. The kids model the violent behavior of the adults around them, so you have to at least be willing to fight if necessary to keep from becoming a victim at school. By the time you're in high school, if you're still in school at that age in these areas, you've probably been or seen somebody get beaten. Not like two kids in school throwing a couple punches, but the kind of beating that ends with one guy leaving in an ambulance. You've probably seen jumpings, the revenge jumpings, have been or have a close friend who was stabbed or cut. Etc., etc. You almost have to be a little violent to stay safe if you're surrounded by the dregs of society. The kid who wants to sit around and sing kumbaya with everyone is easy meat.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 14:45:39 GMT -5
My parents grew up on the West Side of Philadelphia - they are now in their 70's. They never really had anything nice to say about the area, but when I went there 20 years ago my Dad said "If you see anything with the name of my high school on it, break every traffic violation and get the hell out of there." (The name of his high school was also the name of the area, and there was a park, and street, and a school, and a shopping center, etc.) Apparantly it had gotten much worse.
My Mom is really funny when she sings the theme song from Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
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Wizard of Id
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Post by Wizard of Id on Jul 27, 2012 14:46:23 GMT -5
You have several generations of entitlement mentality and each generation teaches the next generation. The education at that level is never going to be better than the teacher. Add to that the huge jump in population and crowding them into a small arena, violence is guaranteed to escalate.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2012 14:47:21 GMT -5
...fwiw, I'd be interested in what the Stevens Levitt and Dubner have to say on this... my guess is that the poverty itself doesn't beget violence, but the parenting that comes from those who can't/won't rise above poverty does...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 14:51:45 GMT -5
They say that dissatisfaction with your lot in life increases with exposure to those that have much more than you do. When everyone around you is as poor as you are and you don't have much exposure to those that have more you it doesn't feel so bad. These days with tv and movies and whatnot people know how much they don't have. We also have a proliferation of movies that show how the tough guys win.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:52:13 GMT -5
"fwiw, I'd be interested in what the Stevens Levitt and Dubner have to say on this... my guess is that the poverty itself doesn't beget violence, but the parenting that comes from those who can't/won't rise above poverty does... "
But it almost seems to me that it isn't poverty itself...I'm not sure how to say this right...there are poor people and then there are ghetto poor people. it is the ghetto poor people that I am afraid of because they are the drug dealing gangbangers shooting everyone. So what has happened to society to allow this to happen in the last 15-20 years? My dad's mom was piss poor (I believe she had a 6th grade education and she cleaned houses to support 5 children after her husband abandoned all of them). I can assure you she would have beat her children if anyone of them tried to be a thug...she was poor but she was proud and she made sure her kids made something of themselves. And all 5 of her children are living at least in middle class.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 14:54:03 GMT -5
Around here it's the gangs shooting at other gangs that leads to violence and death usually in the poorer areas of the city - but also sometimes it spills over to the 'better' areas. I'm sure that domestic violence isn't confined to economic borders so there's violence in the Well To Do neighborhoods it just doesn't make the nightly news (unless it's a sensational murde- uicide). I think there's a lot more drunk/high people carrying guns out there then there were before. Not that being drunk or high is what causes the violence - but I think when you combine the two the chances for someone pulling a gun out (and shooting it) goes up - especially if they are angry/mad, not getting their way with someone else. I grew up with heavy drinkers some of whom were NOT happy drunks... I can easily imagine someone high/drunk (or in some state of intoxication) convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are RIGHT! and with easy access to a gun showing that other someone just how RIGHT they are... I would think it's a bit easier/less deadly to deal with such a person who's wielding a knife or two by four or whatever....
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 14:55:06 GMT -5
Maybe once it becomes the culture, it just becomes the "in" thing to do.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 27, 2012 14:57:17 GMT -5
"Maybe once it becomes the culture, it just becomes the "in" thing to do."
Gangsta rap does make it cool...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 14:57:48 GMT -5
Maybe once it becomes the culture, it just becomes the "in" thing to do. Yeah, I think that finding violence 'funny' (watch TV, Movies, what college kids do to each other for amusement) makes violence OK... and then toss in something that surpresses people's rational side (drugs/alcohol) and you've got something nasty just begging to happen.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 27, 2012 15:00:24 GMT -5
Pie Smash, Nut Tap, Bitch Slap
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2012 15:04:02 GMT -5
"fwiw, I'd be interested in what the Stevens Levitt and Dubner have to say on this... my guess is that the poverty itself doesn't beget violence, but the parenting that comes from those who can't/won't rise above poverty does... " But it almost seems to me that it isn't poverty itself...I'm not sure how to say this right...there are poor people and then there are ghetto poor people. it is the ghetto poor people that I am afraid of because they are the drug dealing gangbangers shooting everyone. So what has happened to society to allow this to happen in the last 15-20 years? My dad's mom was piss poor (I believe she had a 6th grade education and she cleaned houses to support 5 children after her husband abandoned all of them). I can assure you she would have beat her children if anyone of them tried to be a thug...she was poor but she was proud and she made sure her kids made something of themselves. And all 5 of her children are living at least in middle class. ...very good points... ...as to what happened 15-20 yrs ago? some could argue TV piping dissatisfaction into our LRs... others could argue the feminist movement... maybe because a generation ago was the 1st latchkey kids... good questions...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 27, 2012 15:05:38 GMT -5
The thing we may all be missing may be the size of the populations where the violence is occurring... in a city of 3 MILLION people is a murder a day really something out of the ordinanry? Does the media reporting on this stuff day and night make it seem out of the ordinary (like there's more violence)?
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