happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 2, 2012 11:11:09 GMT -5
...I agree that "we" haven't stood up to the violence problem as we could have... We tend to deal with it by isolating ourselves from it. Not driving down certain streets, or going in certain neighborhoods, or living in a gated community. Doesn't really help the people who, for economic reasons, are stuck living in some of these violent neighborhoods.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 2, 2012 12:34:29 GMT -5
The non-violent people in those violent neighborhoods still outnumber the violent ones. They don't cooperate with police when there's a crime. They know exactly which guys standing on the corners are selling drugs, in gangs, robbing their businesses, etc. They're too afraid to say anything though, even when some innocent kid gets killed in the crossfire during drive by shootings and whatnot. Sure, they'll hold a candle light vigil and throw rocks and bottles at the police for not doing enough, but they don't come forward and speak out about the wastes of human skin that they all know.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 2, 2012 12:54:06 GMT -5
Because they know nothing will be done to these criminals and then they and their families will suffer. If these criminals were taken out and shot, maybe people would feel more secure. When criminals get a slap on the wrist, who wants to take a chance?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 2, 2012 13:22:28 GMT -5
...I agree that "we" haven't stood up to the violence problem as we could have... Mainly because we don't see the folks living in violent neighborhoods as 'we' but as 'them'. In my area, Jessie and Al will come into town to protest when kids get punished for getting in fights at school, a crowd gathers to protest, the news media makes a big deal of it, and those of us in our little plastic suburbs just throw up our hands and say 'Well if they want to live that way, let them.' Of course, anybody with a brain would guess that the folks protesting are a tiny minority, but who would want their kids in a school where people (who clearly don't value discipline) are putting that kind of pressure on the school administrators? When people pay to live in economically segregated suburbs, they may say that they are paying for safety and good schools, but what they are really paying for is neighbors that will report crimes and parents who care about education and keeping their kids in line. Like it or not, different people have very different views on education, discipline and law enforcement.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 2, 2012 15:13:23 GMT -5
...I agree that "we" haven't stood up to the violence problem as we could have... Mainly because we don't see the folks living in violent neighborhoods as 'we' but as 'them'. In my area, Jessie and Al will come into town to protest when kids get punished for getting in fights at school, a crowd gathers to protest, the news media makes a big deal of it, and those of us in our little plastic suburbs just throw up our hands and say 'Well if they want to live that way, let them.' Of course, anybody with a brain would guess that the folks protesting are a tiny minority, but who would want their kids in a school where people (who clearly don't value discipline) are putting that kind of pressure on the school administrators? When people pay to live in economically segregated suburbs, they may say that they are paying for safety and good schools, but what they are really paying for is neighbors that will report crimes and parents who care about education and keeping their kids in line. Like it or not, different people have very different views on education, discipline and law enforcement. ...true... but fwiw, I put "we" in quotes for effect... to reference either the "us" or the "them" of this audience... both of whom could take a more active role in standing up against violence... imo...
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 2, 2012 15:40:34 GMT -5
Yep. But having lived in places with extreme poverty and virtually no violence, I'm not willing to chalk up the violence to poverty, lack of education or lack of opportunity. The general attitude towards personal responsibility and law enforcement are much more important factors.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 2, 2012 16:05:15 GMT -5
Yep. But having lived in places with extreme poverty and virtually no violence, I'm not willing to chalk up the violence to poverty, lack of education or lack of opportunity. The general attitude towards personal responsibility and law enforcement are much more important factors. ...I'd agree with that... edited: (...not that you needed me to or anything... lol...)
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 2, 2012 16:10:04 GMT -5
Yep. But having lived in places with extreme poverty and virtually no violence, I'm not willing to chalk up the violence to poverty, lack of education or lack of opportunity. The general attitude towards personal responsibility and law enforcement are much more important factors. Drug use plays a big part in it. I live in the poorest county in my state and we have 'meth mountain' running through it. People that get addicted to that stuff 1) start having crazy, violent, paranoid thoughts and 2) no longer care about things that ought to be important to them, like their kids 3) have no regard for the police, for God, or any other authority figure. Meth is so amazingly hard to kick, and it has the ability to just destroy your body and mental abilities, it makes you almost not human anymore. It's tragic.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 2, 2012 16:25:04 GMT -5
But if you have a firm sense of personal responsibility you won't get caught up in that stuff in the first place. My days in a poor area were before meth took off, but long after many other hard drugs had come onto the scene. It was pretty common to see people drinking to excess or smoking a joint, but nobody seemed to want to have anything to do with the harder stuff.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 2, 2012 17:26:15 GMT -5
But if you have a firm sense of personal responsibility you won't get caught up in that stuff in the first place.
You know, I personally think this is a lot to ask of a kid. Not that it's not a good goal, it's just a lofty one. I didn't develop a "firm sense of personal responsibility" until I was in my early twenties, and it was something I spent a LOT of time figuring out on my own. It was categorically *not* something my parents emphasized. I picked it up when I realized it was important to ME, which required getting out there in the real world and seeing what things were like there.
Now, I DO plan to emphasize it with my kids. It's actually the most important value I want to impart, no contest. So perhaps, given that, you could reasonably expect my kids to run the drug question through the personal responsibility grid more than most (assuming I'm doing my job right). BUT, most people don't place quite the importance on it that I do, and if it's not the top value being taught in a home, it's understandable that kids wouldn't really think about their actions through that lens.
(Especially in our sue-happy, "nothing is my fault!" culture.)
So I think this is true to an extent but also overly simplistic. You make it sound like a simple thing to develop, and it's not. I'm sure there are exceptions but in general, if it isn't being specifically taught to a kid, the kid probably wouldn't naturally come up with it on their own.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Aug 2, 2012 18:27:55 GMT -5
Yeah, but you kinda made my point. Parents who have a firm sense of personal responsiblity will put a lot of time and effort into teaching their kids and keeping tabs on them, and kids who are actually being parented tend to stay out of trouble better than those whose parents let them run wild. There's also the herd benefit, where a kid who is an emotional orphan still stands a good chance of turning out ok when nearly all of his friends are being properly parented and the other parents are willing to mentor him.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 2, 2012 18:46:42 GMT -5
Parents who have a firm sense of personal responsiblity will put a lot of time and effort into teaching their kids and keeping tabs on them, and kids who are actually being parented tend to stay out of trouble better than those whose parents let them run wild.
Right, that was my point too. Parents who don't, won't. Kids who aren't, won't. And that seems to be the case in bad neighborhoods more often than not. I can't imagine much improvement until that aspect is addressed.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 3, 2012 11:58:24 GMT -5
I have a friend who was appointed as an associate judge in the juvenile court system and has said stated how interesting it is to see the dynamics of the kids who are brought before him. He said that typically (not always, of course) there are 2 types of kids who tend to get into trouble. One is the kid who comes from a poor family (generally a single parent home) where the parent is either always working to just make ends meet and has no idea what their kid is doing or they are too strung out to care, and the other is the kid from a really rich family who has parents who also don't give a rip what their kid is up to. They are too interested in running a company, taking trips to Europe, etc. Both type of kids usually have problems with drugs. The difference is that the rich kid has the money/resources to buy whatever drugs he wants and when he gets into trouble mommy and daddy have a top dollar lawyer there in no time to get the kid off. The poor kid; however, who is an addict commits crimes to get his drug money and when he is caught some public defender shows up and the outcome is a whole lot different.
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