NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 1, 2012 15:45:52 GMT -5
I don't think when they were done really matters that much when it comes to the results.
A big reason why they have not been repeated is the ethical issues that come up with running an experiment like that. He got in big trouble with the ethics committee because it was a blind study (so no one knew it wasn't real till the end) and it caused a lot of mental distress for the participants.
For it to work you can't have people consent before performing the experiment and that's too big of an ethics violation for anyone to take on.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 1, 2012 15:47:34 GMT -5
There have been many instances of cult like behavior throughout history where people apparently lose all ability to think for themselves or stand up for something they believe is wrong. Look at all these idiots who gave away everything they had last year because they were told by what's his name (I can't remember) that the world was going to end. It is quite concerning just how easily influenced people really are.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 1, 2012 15:49:31 GMT -5
Exactly. I don't think we've really changed that much.
Which is why I always cringe a little when people say "Oh I would NEVER be able to ________" or "Of course I would ______ in that situation"... because you really don't always do what you think you'd do.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 1, 2012 15:49:59 GMT -5
There have been many instances of cult like behavior throughout history where people apparently lose all ability to think for themselves or stand up for something they believe is wrong
#yeahthat#
FLDS is another one that comes to mind.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2012 15:52:11 GMT -5
If memory serves, this experiment was done in the 50's or early 60's when people were a lot more programmed. The shocking results of this experiment combined with WW2 being a recent memory caused a movement to question authority, which is a good thing. If you watch the excellent series, Love, Hate and Propaganda, you'd see how people could be brainwashed into doing just about anything.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2012 15:53:44 GMT -5
Propaganda, the weapon of mass persuasion, is a powerful force and has helped shape events of the 20th century. Each series examines how propaganda influenced significant moments in history, and the lives of the people who lived through them. Hosted by George Stroumboulopoulos Love, Hate and Propaganda aims to tell the story of the world we live in to a media savvy generation. www.cbc.ca/documentaries/lovehatepropaganda/
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 1, 2012 15:55:35 GMT -5
Whatever that cult's name was that all believed they'd go up in a spaceship hidden behind the Haley Bop commet was during my lifetime.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 1, 2012 16:07:13 GMT -5
Whatever that cult's name was that all believed they'd go up in a spaceship hidden behind the Haley Bop commet was during my lifetime. Heaven's Gate
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 16:10:25 GMT -5
Brainwashing is one thing. Even something an actual authority figure tells you to do is one thing - I can see where I might have quite a bit of trouble refusing to do something ethically questionable if my boss or my mother or a cop told me to, although of course depending on what it was I *hope* I would resist anyway.
But I still don't get that experiment. This wasn't an environment where people were brainwashed, this so-called "authority figure" wasn't someone they cared about or even had to answer to in their daily life!
"I'm a random person you've never met before, you're taking part in this voluntary experiment, here - torture this buddy of yours for me" just doesn't seem all that persuasive. I mean, I hate to say this but those people must have been very weak-minded to simply go along with that (thinking it was real). No wonder they had psychological problems afterward - no wonder they felt guilty! They should have felt guilty!
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 1, 2012 16:12:23 GMT -5
But we are all still 'programmed' to follow authority. We teach kids to do what the teacher/police/clergy/your father sez. Questioning the immediate authorities in one's life is generally frowned upon. Just an example: You are driving thru a "One Stop Light Town" at 2 am and you come to the Stoplight. It's red. You can see clearly in all directions that you are the ONLY car on the road. Do stop for the light? Do you stay stopped at the light until it turns green? Odds are you stop and stay stopped even though it seems to make no sense. And if you do go thru the red light - there's a good chance you feel a bit 'bad'. Our autopilot has the rule that you don't go thru red lights - no matter what. You can apply this to other everyday authorities we obey without ever questioning. I'm not saying this is good or bad... it's part of what keeps society running smoothly (because everyone obeys the same rules) just that questioning authority isn't really something we like to do... I think it makes people uncomfortable/uneasy.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 1, 2012 16:16:34 GMT -5
I am slightly amused when I hear people say things such as "people are crazy these days." Yes, I do think there are some crazy people in the world but the "these days" part is what amuses me. Considering some of the things that have happened throughout history like burning women at the stake, buying and selling people like they are property (which still happens illegally), and a long list of other completely messed up instances I would definitely say that people aren't any crazier than they always have been. It is just a different kind of crazy now...
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 1, 2012 16:19:45 GMT -5
"I'm a random person you've never met before, you're taking part in this voluntary experiment, here - torture this buddy of yours for me" just doesn't seem all that persuasive. I mean, I hate to say this but those people must have been very weak-minded to simply go along with that (thinking it was real). No wonder they had psychological problems afterward - no wonder they felt guilty! They should have felt guilty!
That's how it looks in hindsight. The people requited for the experiment didn't know WHAT the experiment was. Nor did the Actors/implementors know what the experiment was about. No one went into the experiment knowing they would be faced with what amounted to 'torturing and killing' an unseen (but heard) person.
If you want to understand or 'get' what was going on you'll have to go out to the internets (or the Google<__ all praise the Google!!) and read/hear/or watch what this was all about...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 16:19:51 GMT -5
I'm not saying this is good or bad... it's part of what keeps society running smoothly (because everyone obeys the same rules) just that questioning authority isn't really something we like to do... I think it makes people uncomfortable/uneasy.
I think it also depends on the potential consequences in play. If you live in a country (or hell, even a single household) where you can be jailed or beaten or even killed for questioning authority, it takes a *lot* more strength of will to do it. And most people would naturally resist that. It's understandable.
Gunning that red light - the worst that can happen to you is a ticket.
Which is why I can't understand what would make people who aren't naturally sociopathic do something that they think will cause someone else to be tortured on the say-so of a stranger. It would be one thing if the alternative was being tortured themselves, or someone going after their families. It would be one thing if they couldn't walk away.
But it was a bloody experiment. Nothing bad would've happened to them if they had simply walked away. Most of the subjects didn't even ask if the person they thought they were shocking could be checked on until they heard banging and screaming!!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 16:21:05 GMT -5
That's how it looks in hindsight. The people requited for the experiment didn't know WHAT the experiment was. Nor did the Actors/implementors know what the experiment was about. No one went into the experiment knowing they would be faced with what amounted to 'torturing and killing' an unseen (but heard) person.
Yeah but it should have been pretty clear just from the explanation of the setup.
From Wiki:
That's what I don't understand. They thought they were ACTIVELY CAUSING SOMEONE ELSE TO BE IN EXTREME AGONY, and they didn't even question it because they were told they wouldn't be held responsible?! WTF?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 1, 2012 16:37:05 GMT -5
That's what I don't understand. They thought they were ACTIVELY CAUSING SOMEONE ELSE TO BE IN EXTREME AGONY, and they didn't even question it because they were told they wouldn't be held responsible?! WTF?
Welcome to knowledge about the wonders that are Human Nature.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 16:39:48 GMT -5
Continued reading, and Milgram's results were remarkably constant. He did 19 versions of the experiment. But some did resist (although the "coda" notes that nobody, not even the people who wouldn't give the shocks, walked out or insisted that the experiment stop or that the person being shocked needed to be checked on), so it's not like they didn't have the ability to stop. I still can't quite understand why more of them didn't walk out or at least demand to leave.
Alternatively, if it was tough following orders once authority was established, I can't imagine why more didn't bow out in the early stages when they were FIRST told "hey, you're going to shock the other guy - at first it will feel like THIS ZZZZ but then it will get worse and worse."
Doesn't that sound pretty sketchy? It seems like more people should have had the gumption to say "hey no way, I'm not going to shock this guy every time."
I would be very interested in results of the same experiment performed today but as Drama said, the ethical issues are huge.
Although interestingly, the Wiki page reported some subjects that were happy they participated.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 16:45:15 GMT -5
I also wonder what the results would be like if the person "receiving shocks" was an animal. And whether the type of animal, or the type of cry it produced, would make any difference. Hmm, so many interesting experiments we could do if not for those pesky ethical bounds!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 1, 2012 16:52:30 GMT -5
What?!? How often are you going to get a chance to torture some poor schmuck, and you'd just walk out...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 16:59:55 GMT -5
If you were the one getting a shock, things might be different
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 1, 2012 17:02:37 GMT -5
Nobody was actually getting shocked though, so you got to experience torturing somebody with none of the guilt... assuming you aren't a psychopath so you'd actually have guilt later.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 1, 2012 17:05:42 GMT -5
What?!? How often are you going to get a chance to torture some poor schmuck, and you'd just walk out... What if you told the poor schmuck was guilty of a horrendeous crime? Lots of people on the internet post about the horrible awful things that should be done to people who have been 'condemned' by the media/society. And how happy they would be to do the horrible awful things. Toss in a little justification and some pressure from authority and you've got the makings of Bad Stuff gonna happen... I always think of college hazing as a supposedly 'friendly' form of torture. Of course, hazing isn't about the torture part - it's the part about surviving the hazing and having the shared experience with the other members of the group - you all survived that part of the gaining admission to the group. There's alot of loyalty/power in being part of a group you've gained admission to... you won't do something to screw up or jepardize your standing within that group and you might not do something that would hurt the group... which means you may do stuff you don't really want to do or aren't proud of when told to do so by the authority/power of the group- factor in abit of that 'human nature' Milgram's experiments brought to light...and well, it can get ugly.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 17:15:22 GMT -5
Toss in a little justification and some pressure from authority and you've got the makings of Bad Stuff gonna happen...
Sure, and I could MUCH more easily envision this experiment having the results it did if the shocks were supposedly being administered to criminals.
But that wasn't the case. They weren't given any justification at all for administering the shocks other than answering quiz questions wrong.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 17:20:05 GMT -5
I always think of college hazing as a supposedly 'friendly' form of torture.
I actually just finished a really interesting book that looked at this phenomenon pretty closely*. As you say, most participants of hazing are NOT cool with the concept, and much like the Milgram descriptions, they're deeply uncomfortable having to participate but they do it anyway. According to the book, though, in this case it's not so much about authority (although the authority figures almost always justify and defend hazing torture, both before and after the fact) but about fitting in and not being distinguished in the group as the pansy or homosexual. Milgram did note that a common reason for the submission was conformity.
*Guyland by Michael Kimmel if anyone's interested - highly recommend it, especially if you happen to have any teenage boys in your life.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 1, 2012 17:46:41 GMT -5
I think they DID to Milgram's experiment with animals- except the animals weren't actors. www.smartpsych.co.uk/evaluation-of-the-milgram-obedience-studiesA further study was carried out by Sheridan and King (1972), where people were asked to give real electric shocks to a puppy. The participants obeyed even though they could see the distress of the animal. I remember hearing about this- can't remember where- I think the details are extra, and may have gone as far as to the unconsciousness of the animals.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 1, 2012 17:50:41 GMT -5
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 1, 2012 18:27:03 GMT -5
Milgram did note that a common reason for the submission was conformity.
Conformity. I like that. Maybe that's the underlying reason for violence in areas of poverty - especially urban areas where everyone is close together and sees/hears what everyone else is doing. Not that people intentionally want to conform to being poor or to violence - but more along the lines of: this is the way it is and I have to go along with it. If I draw attention to myself by not going along, worse thing will happen to me/I'll have MORE problems to deal with that I don't think I can handle. That might explain why hundreds of community residents will come out for a "peace march" to protest some violent act in their community, and even though they may outnumber the 'problem people' by dozens to one - all they can accomplish is to pray as a group for change. To attempt to change (or inform on, or ostracise the problem people) might mean they have to go against the conformity of the community. Marching/Praying is an acceptable conforming way to react to violence so they don't risk much by doing it. Hmmm... just thoughts.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 2, 2012 8:34:32 GMT -5
Good ones, too. Why do we not ever hear from the decent moderate Muslims who just want to live in peace like everyone else? Because to say that means death or worse from the nut jobs out there.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 2, 2012 9:20:23 GMT -5
Milgram did note that a common reason for the submission was conformity. Conformity. I like that. Maybe that's the underlying reason for violence in areas of poverty - especially urban areas where everyone is close together and sees/hears what everyone else is doing. Not that people intentionally want to conform to being poor or to violence - but more along the lines of: this is the way it is and I have to go along with it. If I draw attention to myself by not going along, worse thing will happen to me/I'll have MORE problems to deal with that I don't think I can handle. ... ... ... Hmmm... just thoughts. ...and maybe, too, they are conforming to the common, and effective, strategy to achieve what does grant some street cred... a prison term... ...let alone the fact that the prison term may very well be a vast improvement on their lot in life, anyway... ...and seriously, when considering a nuts and bolts worldview, wouldn't YMers advise someone to act in their best interests? ...to purposely botch a crime that can score you years of relative comfort? ...the cost/benefit analysis is pretty clear, huh?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 2, 2012 10:25:09 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't necessarily saying the conformity was to conform to commiting crimes/violence - but rather to conform by being an 'enabler' by either looking the other way or just being the punching bag. Again, the example of hundreds of people expressing their desire to have violence stop (a plea to the few commiting the violence) but yet the hundreds being unable to do what appears to be little more than praying and politely asking the violent few to stop. I would think that if enough of the people effected by the violence stood up to the problem (reported their loved ones to police, actually pressed charges, told their violent loved ones 'leave now and don't let the door hit your @$$ on the way out' perhaps eventually there would be less violence (it won't ever go away completely). The people doing the violence wouldn't have free reign - they couldn't rely on people conforming to the 'silence' - there would be a new conformity - one of outspoken direct action.
Again, I only have the perspective of what I see in the news media.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 2, 2012 10:31:49 GMT -5
...I agree that "we" haven't stood up to the violence problem as we could have...
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