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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 19:14:37 GMT -5
...I don't have definitive statistics... but a quick internet search yields this: www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html ...and I'm not sure what you're asking about how a feel this way... I only feel curious... could you rephrase the question, maybe? ...and fwiw, it's not my intent to argue with anyone... I'm just bouncing ideas back and forth in the thread, about the link between poverty and violence... Hum. I am puzzled. chartsbin.com/view/1454en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-National_homicide_rates.2C_UN_data_published_by_Nation_Master.com-37I don't usually like to cite Wikipedia, but the stats for country homicide comparisons are from reputable sources, like the country's official census bureaus. Fascinating link. I'm going to have to bow out and study it. I do see that it does not make a wealth disparity distinction, just a national wealth classification; as I understand it, a nation can be very wealthy, but have very high crime and a massive wealth disparity. If I'm wrong about my position, I want to know though. Perhaps my data is too heavily weighted towards homicides. And I'm sorry I phrased my question poorly. What cultural factors do you think low crime countries have that high crime ones don't? Thank you for the debate ;D
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:18:36 GMT -5
...I can't deny that I've been paying attention to the crime stats of things like murder, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, etc.... for these types of crimes, the US doesn't rank as high as many other (developed? safety netted? civilized?) countries... it is for this reason that I still am interested in the utility of drawing conclusions about a direct link between violence and poverty... ...I definitely see that we outrank other countries in total criminality... so our per capita rate needs drastic improvement... ...then again, how do our laws stack up against other countries' laws? ...and can our lawfulness be truly measured by the raw data of an infractions count? hmm...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 31, 2012 19:20:47 GMT -5
I think I'm remembering a movie quote from when I was kid, so I have no idea how accurate it is, but I remember hearing that arrest and conviction rates were insanely high in Japan. The criminals there basically expect to get caught if they break the law, whereas our arrest and conviction rate is very low, so criminals expect to get away with it the vast majority of the time.
It makes sense to me, if it's true.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 19:23:20 GMT -5
When are you people going to learn to shut up when I have a meeting and can't participate? (It is ALL ABOUT ME after all - I've got lessons to learn here!!!) So, what are we talking about now?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:24:21 GMT -5
<<< And I'm sorry I phrased my question poorly. What cultural factors do you think low crime countries have that high crime ones don't? >>> ...it was poorly read by me, not poorly worded by you... ...and cultural factors abound, imo... democracy, ethnicity, religiousity, family, language, climate and topography, wealth, industrialization, etc... I think we would be hard-pressed to narrow down to a "top 3" in cause-and-effect links amongs peoples...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:25:47 GMT -5
When are you people going to learn to shut up when I have a meeting and can't participate? (It is ALL ABOUT ME after all - I've got lessons to learn here!!!) So, what are we talking about now? ...lol...
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:27:35 GMT -5
I think I'm remembering a movie quote from when I was kid, so I have no idea how accurate it is, but I remember hearing that arrest and conviction rates were insanely high in Japan. The criminals there basically expect to get caught if they break the law, whereas our arrest and conviction rate is very low, so criminals expect to get away with it the vast majority of the time. It makes sense to me, if it's true. ...a very interesting question, dark... because we can agree that an accurate crime count needs accuracy... and if there are countries that stink are law enforcement, (the USA perhaps?), then their numbers are skewed...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 31, 2012 19:37:40 GMT -5
Any Canadians here? What's up with those northern provinces? I have to imagine they're pretty sparsely populated. Is it a few cases of cabin fever type situations throwing the stats off or what? The map is showing the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 people. There's a lot of crime in the north. They drink a lot, and there's a great deal of poverty, despite government throwing a lot of money at the problem. It tends to mysteriously vanish.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:41:30 GMT -5
Maybe our nation is coming to a point where there are simply too many people. ...good question... and I would answer "no" if referencing "Americanism" and "yes" if referencing the USA... a nation vs. country distinction, that, while subtle, is substantial... ...iow, I think "we" can take more of the "tired, poor, huddled masses, yearning to breathe free" if we're discussing the American experiment... I do not think we can take many of them right now, until we heal our land and strengthen our infrastructure...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 31, 2012 19:45:07 GMT -5
Any Canadians here? What's up with those northern provinces? --------------- Northern communities face many unique challenges. Issues of culture, language, social and geographic isolation, poverty, housing and education contribute to an increasing risk for problematic substance use in these communities. Infrastructure disparities and hard to reach areas add to the complexity of addressing problematic substance use in Canada's territorial and northern communities. Research has shown that the use and abuse of substances, particularly alcohol and solvents, is more common in northern and remote communities where social and economic infrastructure may not be as strong or as developed. The use of alcohol is linked with higher rates of suicide, violence and poor performance in schools. www.nationalframework-cadrenational.ca/detail_e.php?id_sub=14&id_top_sub=2
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:46:06 GMT -5
Not only are we too lenient on first offenders, the family values of these offenders is messed up. Look at the crime rates in countries where bringing shame to a family is not tolerated. I was just looking at this: Holy cow! I had no idea we here were so messed up. www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes/...good questions, all... but I sniffed around nationmaster, too... and total crime counts of the more "violent" stuff (definitions mine) show that the USA ranks lower down the scales... so, are we more violent? are we more legislated? and does our net worth directly affect our criminality?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 19:46:25 GMT -5
I liked the article. There are several points I'm going to be considering for quite some time. to you, BeenThere, for a good discussion and giving me things to think about. I'll snag you when my timer refreshes too, Dark. I like a good debate where something new is learned. ;D My position has gone uncertain while I mull this over, so I'll leave the field to others.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 31, 2012 19:54:18 GMT -5
This land is your land, this land is my land.
(Sorry, it's stuck in my head and I wanted to share.)
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:57:33 GMT -5
...yes... a good discussion... different perspectives to consider... and I also agree that hootieman's social decay point is on point... (pun intended) ...and since social decay is defined, in large part, by cultural factors, we may have trouble finding a single link between poverty and violence, huh?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 19:59:16 GMT -5
...and thanks for the karma, copper... considering the previous few pages about past lives and cyclical self-improvement, I'll need all the karma I can get... ;D
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 31, 2012 20:31:56 GMT -5
Any Canadians here? What's up with those northern provinces? I have to imagine they're pretty sparsely populated. Is it a few cases of cabin fever type situations throwing the stats off or what? The map is showing the intentional homicide rate per 100,000 people. Alcoholism, the prevalence of firearms, and cabin fever. Don't keep drunk people inside too long with each other with guns nearby.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 31, 2012 21:01:32 GMT -5
But that's when the party gets fun!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 31, 2012 21:07:21 GMT -5
Maybe our nation is coming to a point where there are simply too many people. So who do you suggest we kill off?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 31, 2012 21:08:10 GMT -5
But that's when the party gets fun! Yeah, it is kind of fun unless you're the one getting shot at
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 31, 2012 21:12:05 GMT -5
My kids will miss me. Or are you just trying to make them better people by killing their mother?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 31, 2012 21:15:54 GMT -5
Swamp, are you new? First we kill the lazy poor people, then the hardworking poor people, then old people, then SAHMs, then working moms, then government employees.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 31, 2012 21:25:36 GMT -5
Swamp, are you new? First we kill the lazy poor people, then the hardworking poor people, then old people, then SAHMs, then working moms, then government employees. ...then the shooters become the violent criminals for trying to eliminate the violent criminals... ...would make for a good "Twilight Zone" episode for sure...
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 31, 2012 21:54:25 GMT -5
I think government supplies money towards shelter and utilities more than the actual housing and utilities themselves. Any reason you think housing or the ability to heat one's living space is going to disappear anytime soon? I would think that with more and more people requiring this aid, and with tax dollars drying up, many are going to be out in the cold. Our tax dollars have been paying for the section 8 housing and utility supplements, right? Its not like everyone who applies now or in the not too distant past got approved for these programs. I'm not sure what big changes you expect? My guess is the wait times just go up for housing and a smaller percentage of those who apply for utility assistance get it, i.e. situation normal. My guess is many of the people on this board that assume certain things about the social safety net programs have never applied.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 31, 2012 23:36:52 GMT -5
Another thing to consider about welfare - I've never seen a Shanty Town in the USA. OK, I don't travel much so I've never actually seen one in other countries except for on-line (or in stories from movies/books). That said, I've never seen or heard tell of a modern ShantyTown that lasted any length of time in the US. How come our big Cities don't have thousands of the poor living in shanty towns on their outskirts? I'd think it's our welfare system that keeps the poorest people from having to build their own shelters. I suspect the violence in Shanty Towns far surpasses the violence in places where the poor aren't forced to entirely fend for themselves. Doesn't that improve the quality of live for everyone (poor, middle class, and rich)?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 1, 2012 2:51:05 GMT -5
They're pretty good at setting up in really out of the way areas on the edge of town. I was a teen in a town of about 25-30,000 people and I can tell you where the homeless camp was. It wasn't anywhere near big enough to be called a shanty town on it's own, but I always figured that if the homeless grouped together in the homeless camp out past the edge of town there they probably did it in other places too. It's kind of amazing really how much crap can go on pretty much right under the noses of the larger community and law enforcement. I don't know if we're clueless, or really good at purposefully not looking all that hard.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 1, 2012 6:35:50 GMT -5
...and squatter's rights factor into any discussion about shanty towns... making it hard to compare Miami to Rio de Janeiro... so as ruhk aptly indicated, we clear them out before any significant settlement takes hold...
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 1, 2012 7:05:07 GMT -5
Another thing to consider about welfare - I've never seen a Shanty Town in the USA. OK, I don't travel much so I've never actually seen one in other countries except for on-line (or in stories from movies/books). That said, I've never seen or heard tell of a modern ShantyTown that lasted any length of time in the US. How come our big Cities don't have thousands of the poor living in shanty towns on their outskirts? They're there, they just purposefully stay under the radar because if they become visible, local businesses will complain and the police will clear them out. We used to have quite a large population living along the railroad tracks in a wooded, weedy culvert in our city, but the railroad became concerned and went in and booted everyone out and cut down all the trees. Most of them shifted to a spot under one of the downtown highway overpasses. It's by a creek, in a dense thicket and you have to climb down an embankment to reach it so they aren't very visible, but occasionally you'll see one of them pushing one of their grocery carts alone the main drag. Some cities are more aggressive about moving their homeless out, going as far as buying them a bus ticket and putting them on a bus for the next big city. Ragged people sitting around your downtown area can be such bummer for the tourists.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 1, 2012 7:08:39 GMT -5
"My guess is many of the people on this board that assume certain things about the social safety net programs have never applied."
This.
I've been fortunate not to ever have had to apply for any, but DH has worked with mental health patients in the past, and funding is always limited. There might be x amount of money in a city budget for helping people keep the power turned on, but one that fund is spent for that month, you're out of luck. Maybe next month.
And with the bad economy, governments have less money to hand out while the number of poor people has increased.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Aug 1, 2012 7:13:34 GMT -5
In this area you just need to look for the homeless underneath bridges, & around railroad tracks. They're out there, if you know where to look....
We have a friend who has works with people who seek help in paying utility bills. The requests FAR outstrip the available funds. Everyone from single moms to the elderly need help paying for heat in the winter.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 1, 2012 7:39:16 GMT -5
Good question. But they have children. Funny, there's a fair amount of us that also have children and we worked.
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