NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:40:28 GMT -5
In the real world, he might be considered a joke and you a bad parent but if you are both fine with it, so be it. I'll raise mine the way I want and if I'm a bad parent, so be it.
I wish my karma button worked because you totally deserve it!
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 12, 2012 11:41:28 GMT -5
I'm not going to teach my kids that the world is perfect, but I don't want them to bow down to societal, parental, or peer pressure just to fit in. I want them to think for themselves and be able to make their own decisions and be there own person.
That process includes making decisions as children that I disagree with as the parent.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 11:41:44 GMT -5
You know what? Then you raise your rat tail haired son with the pink shirt on and hope for the best. In the real world, he might be considered a joke and you a bad parent but if you are both fine with it, so be it. I'll raise mine the way I want and if I'm a bad parent, so be it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 12, 2012 11:42:52 GMT -5
When you tell your child they can't dress or look the way they want you are telling them they aren't good enough for you. That may not be your intention but that's the message the kid is hearing. You tell Gwen she can't wear goth make up you are giving her the impression that you think she's a freak for even wanting to in the first place. I forgot to include Sheila in the karma lineup. I'll be giving karma all day! cranberry- Exactly what part of my statement is in your opinion "Total BS"? All of it, no doubt, since you believe in respecting your kid's individual personality All the bolded part! A child has to learn what NO means. This is all about teaching them. A parent cannot allow their child(ren) to do as they please all the time.She DOESN'T "let her kid do as he pleases all the time." She simply allows him to decide the person he wants to be rather than dictating it to him. THERE IS A BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 11:45:37 GMT -5
I disagree, the "but" is important. It isn't something you say to the victim ever, but when we are looking at these incidents from the outside, it is important to not how sometimes victims put themselves in bad situations. We aren't talking about a specific rape here, so I don't see the issue with saying that walking alone, in a bad neighborhood, dressed provacatively is a bad idea & increase your odds of getting raped. Really how is that statement offensive?? Does anyone disagree with it's accuracy?? The "but" has to be out there, not necessarily said. There are things we can do to decrease the odds of being a victim - are we really supposed to ignore those things? As I have said before, there is absolutely not evidence that dressing provocatively influences if you get raped or not. In fact the most common clothes women wear while being raped are hoodies and pants. Fine then ignore the provacatively part of the statement if you want - change it to hoodie & pants. Is the rest untrue? Is it really a good idea to wander around a bad neighborhood alone? Sure it isn't the victims fault she got raped, but are we really going to pretend there aren't things you can do to decrease the likelihood of becoming a victim? I think people take the "don't blame the victim" thing so far that we start overlooking what things women do that increase the odds of being victims. How are women supposed to protect themselves if we are taught not only is it not our fault, but there was absolutely nothing that could have been differently to prevent the situation. I am a victim of DV & while it wasn't my fault & my husband shouldn't have hit me, there were things I could have done different that would have led to a different outcome. I am a freaking moron if I can't recognize that. ETA - to take it a step further, suppose my husband hit me again & again. Are we really going to say that still there is nothing I could have done to prevent that & create a different outcome? Sure it isn't my fault he hits, he is the bad guy. But, staying was a choice I made that led to that outcome - I did make choices that increased my likelihood of being a victim.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 12, 2012 11:45:44 GMT -5
::She DOESN'T "let her kid do as he pleases all the time." She simply allows him to decide the person he wants to be rather than dictating it to him. THERE IS A BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE. ::
Yes, but she's claiming that anytime you tell your child they can't do what they want, you are telling them "I don't love you unless you change", which is a big load of BS.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:46:24 GMT -5
I'm not going to teach my kids that the world is perfect, but I don't want them to bow down to societal, parental, or peer pressure just to fit in. I want them to think for themselves and be able to make their own decisions and be there own person
I do too. But being one of the "odd" people myself I recognize there are times I need to suck it up and play by the rules.
When I go to a job interview I don't wear the jewerly I normally wear, I wear conservative jewerly because I know what I wear in my off hours is not work appropriate.
I could go ahead and wear them and tell myself "well that boss is just a meanie judgemental person, he should just acknowledge what is on my resume".
OR I can accept that society wants me to dress a certain way when I go to a job interview and play the role I need to play to get what I want.
I'm still perfectly able to be who I want to be and express myself. I just know when it si a smart idea to do so and when I need to turn it off.
Kids don't know that, that's part of my job as a parent, to teach her how to function in the adult world.
She's still free to do what she wants and face the consequences of her choices.
Iif she wants to wear white face make-up after she's done living with me she can be my guest, but if she comes to me whining that she got turned down for every single job she applied for I am going to point out that most places don't approve of the make-up she is wearing.
She wants to continue to wear it then she needs to find a job where that is acceptable work attire.
She doesn't want to work those places, the make-up has to come off at least during work hours.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:46:57 GMT -5
Pink, I am horrified the school knew your kid was getting hit and didn't do anything.
What you told your kid is exactly what I'm going to tell mine. You do NOT hit people. But if someone hits you, on purpose, you have every right to smack them back. Hard.I can't imagine what would've happened if he'd wanted to wear pink clothes to school. Now that I think about it, he did wear a pink dress shirt to one of his senior functions. I actually bought it for him, he picked it out. Like I said before, I've seen men wear pink, and while I notice it because it's not very common, it doesn't automatically make me think "feminine". Anyway, I don't know if it was because by then my son was more confident (and much bigger), or because pink on men has become more *acceptable* but he had no problems due to his pink shirt. I still wouldn't let a little boy wear his sister's pink clothes though.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 11:48:13 GMT -5
::When a little boy wants to wear pink and you tell him you can't you are punishing him. Not in the sense that you are sending him to his room without supper but in the sense that you are telling him he isn't good enough and he has to change in order for you to love him:: So if he wants to go to school without any pants or underwear on, and you make him put them on, are you telling him you won't love him unless he makes the change? Just because you make your kid do certain things does not equate to "if you don't change then I won't love you". What if he's 12 and wants to wear something racist or sexist? I assume you won't let him. I also assume that not letting him doesn't mean "I don't love you unless you change". Legally he is required to wear pants or shorts or whatever to school and out in public. Do I care what pants he wears? Nope, so long as they are clean I don't care. If my son wanted to wear something racist or sexist I would ask him why he felt he wanted to wear something that promoted such negativity. I would personally feel as though I had failed as a parent if he wanted to wear something that was racists or sexist. So far my kid is only 14. I fully expect him to change and for his opinions to at some point differ from ours. But I don't see him pulling a complete 180 and going from being the kid that stood up to the bullies in 3rd grade for calling his friend the "F" word to wanting to promote that same hatred and bigotry on a t-shirt.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 11:48:47 GMT -5
::She DOESN'T "let her kid do as he pleases all the time." She simply allows him to decide the person he wants to be rather than dictating it to him. THERE IS A BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE. :: Yes, but she's claiming that anytime you tell your child they can't do what they want, you are telling them "I don't love you unless you change", which is a big load of BS. Exactly!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:50:56 GMT -5
I'm not going to teach my kids that the world is perfect, but I don't want them to bow down to societal, parental, or peer pressure just to fit in. I want them to think for themselves and be able to make their own decisions and be there own personI do too. But being one of the "odd" people myself I recognize there are times I need to suck it up and play by the rules. When I go to a job interview I don't wear the jewerly I normally wear, I wear conservative jewerly because I know what I wear in my off hours is not work appropriate. I could go ahead and wear them and tell myself "well that boss is just a meanie judgemental person, he should just acknowledge what is on my resume". OR I can accept that society wants me to dress a certain way when I go to a job interview and play the role I need to play to get what I want. I'm still perfectly able to be who I want to be and express myself. I just know when it si a smart idea to do so and when I need to turn it off. Kids don't know that, that's part of my job as a parent, to teach her how to function in the adult world. She's still free to do what she wants and face the consequences of her choices. Iif she wants to wear white face make-up after she's done living with me she can be my guest, but if she comes to me whining that she got turned down for every single job she applied for I am going to point out that most places don't approve of the make-up she is wearing. She wants to continue to wear it then she needs to find a job where that is acceptable work attire. She doesn't want to work those places, the make-up has to come off at least during work hours. My mom allowing me to wear goth attire did not mean that I wore it to an interview or at work. I learned that their was different types of attire depending on what you were doing. However, on my off-time if I chose to wear it, what is the big deal?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 11:52:11 GMT -5
::When a little boy wants to wear pink and you tell him you can't you are punishing him. Not in the sense that you are sending him to his room without supper but in the sense that you are telling him he isn't good enough and he has to change in order for you to love him:: So if he wants to go to school without any pants or underwear on, and you make him put them on, are you telling him you won't love him unless he makes the change? Just because you make your kid do certain things does not equate to "if you don't change then I won't love you". What if he's 12 and wants to wear something racist or sexist? I assume you won't let him. I also assume that not letting him doesn't mean "I don't love you unless you change". Legally he is required to wear pants or shorts or whatever to school and out in public. Do I care what pants he wears? Nope, so long as they are clean I don't care. Why would they have to be clean? If he likes wearing dirty, smelly pants, wouldn't that be a choice just as much as which pants he wears?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:52:43 GMT -5
Going back to the "Future Porn Star" shirt that started all this is anyone REALLY going to just let their 16 year old daughter "express herself" with that t-shirt and tell her that anyone who thinks of porn while she wears are just a bunch of judgemental ass hats? After all she feels good about herself when she wears it, we don't want her to have bad self esteem do we? Or are you going to explain the conotation of the shirt she's wearing and te reaction it's going to inspire? Me the shirt is going missing if it shows up in my house along with a lecture why that kind of crap isn't allowed in my house. Course I'll eat my words if she ends up being the next Jenna Jameson.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jul 12, 2012 11:53:01 GMT -5
And I would hate for my kid to have something happen to her because I was too scared of hurting her feelings to put the kibosh on something.
I'll be honest, while I don't agree with bullying, having been bullied myself i don't get the huge emphasis on it in the current schools. I think tolerance and anti-bullying is a good thing, but when my teacher SIL blames bullying for a kid committing suicide and how bullying is out of hand, I don't get it.
So, that opinion stated, when I think dangerous situation I think hanging out with the wrong crowd, I think making a trip downtown (or a bad neighborhood) late at night, I think lots of things. But in terms of clothes all I think about is properly covered. Goth, "cowboy", or whatever I don't really care. Maybe I'm too naive to care since I have 2.5 year old. Most of the kids will be made fun of for something at some point in time. Usually something you can't control.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:54:33 GMT -5
However, on my off-time if I chose to wear it, what is the big deal?
Nothing. You were okay with it and so was your mom.
I'm not okay with it and if she lives under my roof she follows my rules.
And don't get mad if I think "freak" when you walk by or your kid walks by dressed like that. You dress outside of societal expectations you shouldn't be shocked that people disagree with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:55:58 GMT -5
And I would hate for my kid to have something happen to her because I was too scared of hurting her feelings to put the kibosh on something.I'll be honest, while I don't agree with bullying, having been bullied myself i don't get the huge emphasis on it in the current schools. I think tolerance and anti-bullying is a good thing, but when my teacher SIL blames bullying for a kid committing suicide and how bullying is out of hand, I don't get it. So, that opinion stated, when I think dangerous situation I think hanging out with the wrong crowd, I think making a trip downtown (or a bad neighborhood) late at night, I think lots of things. But in terms of clothes all I think about is properly covered. Goth, "cowboy", or whatever I don't really care. Maybe I'm too naive to care since I have 2.5 year old. Most of the kids will be made fun of for something at some point in time. Usually something you can't control. Kids are no longer allowed to defend themselves if attacked because of zero tolerance. The bullies use this and because the adults don't do their job, the kid has to go somewhere where they are attacked daily with no escape.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 11:56:00 GMT -5
There's a Bill Cosby monologue whe he talks about people doing stupid things to bring out their personality. He points out that what if you're an a-hole?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 12, 2012 11:56:15 GMT -5
::If my son wanted to wear something racist or sexist I would ask him why he felt he wanted to wear something that promoted such negativity. I would personally feel as though I had failed as a parent if he wanted to wear something that was racists or sexist. ::
So would you let him? If he wanted to wear a "Fuck (fill in a group's name)" shirt, would you let him? And if you wouldn't does that mean you don't love him?
::Nope, so long as they are clean I don't care. ::
Maybe he doesn't want to wear clean pants. Maybe he wants to express himself by wearing pants that haven't been washed in 5 years that he's worn every day. If you loved him you'd just let him right?
The real issue seems to be though that you can't imagine your child doing something you wouldn't like, so then the "you should let them do what they want" attitude comes out. It's easy to have that attitude if you think you're never going to be faced with it.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 12, 2012 11:56:27 GMT -5
Exactly, Angel. I was also a victim of DV. Funny thing is? People here on this board made me see something that I refused to acknowledge until then. I was completely blindsided by his behavior - never saw it coming, never had experienced this in my life ever in my family or in other families. While this was in no way my fault, there were red flags I should have seen had I been a bit more mature and experienced. It also taught me what to look for in the future. It would be irresponsible of me to go around saying, "This wasn't my fault and there isn't one thing I'll change in the future." The first part of that sentence would be correct. It wasn't my fault. The second would not be smart of me at all.
I thought - that to acknowledge I made some bad choices - was accepting blame. It isn't. It isn't the same thing at all.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:57:18 GMT -5
I do think part of growing up is she is going to have to take her lumps along the way. She has to learn at some point to deal with assholes and do so in a mature manner.
But at the same time going back to my gay friend there is accepting that people are assholes but still embracing yourself and then there is poking those assholes with a stick to get a reaction out of them.
I don't want my kid behaving like that, it is incredibly stupid/dangerous to do so just to prove a point.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 11:57:23 GMT -5
There is a huge difference between telling your child they can't stick a fork in the electrical outlet and telling them they can't wear certain clothes or make up.
I am not claiming that telling your kid that they can't do what they want is exactly the same as telling them you don't love them. But I AM saying that you run the risk of giving them that impression. raeoflyte's in laws probably never told their child they didn't love him or he wasn't good enough. What they did do was try to make him into something he wasn't and leave him with a lifetime of unhappy childhood memories.
For what it's worth- my kid keeps his hair in a very short style (buzz cut) and wears jeans and slogan t-shirts or shorts and t-shirts every single day.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 11:59:04 GMT -5
Exactly, Angel. I was also a victim of DV. Funny thing is? People here on this board made me see something that I refused to acknowledge until then. I was completely blindsided by his behavior - never saw it coming, never had experienced this in my life ever in my family or in other families. While this was in no way my fault, there were red flags I should have seen had I been a bit more mature and experienced. It also taught me what to look for in the future. It would be irresponsible of me to go around saying, "This wasn't my fault and there isn't one thing I'll change in the future." The first part of that sentence would be correct. It wasn't my fault. The second would not be smart of me at all. I thought - that to acknowledge I made some bad choices - was accepting blame. It isn't. It isn't the same thing at all. Our stories sound pretty similar
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 11:59:32 GMT -5
DQ, I just had to give you karma again. Your posts are so spot on.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 12, 2012 12:02:18 GMT -5
Yes, but most of us punk, goth, 'freak' teens grew up and hold down respectable jobs in corporate america. We keep our tattoos covered, and our visible piercings respectable. I learned that lesson just fine without my parents dictating to me.
If you can't express yourself as a kid/teen then when will you ever be able to before your nursing home?
Like Sheila said--if I don't like what my kid is wearing I will try to find out why they are wearing it. I might still say no, but their opinion and feelings matter too.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 12, 2012 12:02:31 GMT -5
OK, I am still on pg 6 and had to reply to this.
The first thing I highlighted - I hope you can admit that it is your opinion and no more than that. Second statement - I hope you don't mean to imply that people who wouldn't let their child go out in X,Y,Z don't respect them, bc I will go with you toe to toe to prove how wrong that implication is
Lena
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 12:03:04 GMT -5
Yes I would let him wear it. I would totally disagree with it and let him know my feelings on the subject. I would require him to purchase such a thing with his own money but yes I would allow him to wear it.
With regards to the clean clothes- I do the laundry in our house and collect everything from his room and wash it. If he had something that he refused to let me wash ok. I would still let him wear it. If it stank something nasty I would request that he eat his dinner on the patio or roll down his window in the car.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 12:03:53 GMT -5
However, on my off-time if I chose to wear it, what is the big deal? Nothing. You were okay with it and so was your mom. I'm not okay with it and if she lives under my roof she follows my rules. And don't get mad if I think "freak" when you walk by or your kid walks by dressed like that. You dress outside of societal expectations you shouldn't be shocked that people disagree with it. It seems like you are trying to be vicious. I don't think I can read this thread anymore. It's too ugly. I think perhaps people take different meanings from the word "freak". When I hear DQ say it, I don't hear it as "complete freak of nature" said in a horrible, nasty way as though they are a bad person. I hear it as you might say "odd", "different", "weird", "strange". Would most people not think "that person dresses odd (weird, freaky)" if someone dressed really unusual walked by. I don't think DQ is using freak intending it to be a slur or insult, but as a description or the way she sees the outfits.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 12, 2012 12:04:32 GMT -5
I have no idea if our kids will resent us, how many mistakes we'll make. If we'll be too lenient, too strict, or play favorites. But I do know that I do not look at them as mini-me's put on this earth for me to shape and mold into what I think they should be. I look at them as their own individual people who chose me to guide them to adulthood. I will guide them as much as I can, but at the end of the day I feel that I learn 10x more from them than they will ever learn from me. I'm going to lose track of who I owe karma to if this keeps up. Nice post, raeoflyte. My mom doesn't know or care about who I am. I know that in her eyes I am not good enough for her and I will be damned if my son will ever feel for one second that he is not good enough or worthy enough. Sheila - I know this feeling too. I wonder if that's what makes people understand how damaging it is to dictate who a child should be to them? People get all upset if a person even mentions there are ways to make yourself less attractive as a victim. Sorry. But there are. It's reality. It's not blame-placing.Yes, actually it is because it carries the assumption that if you DON'T make yourself less attractive as a victim, then you are more responsible for the result. Which in turn DOES lift blame off the attacker. The more responsibility you put on the victim, the more you lift from the attacker. That's all there is to it. And I'm not talking about anything besides rape. Other analogies don't work with rape culture. But. Again. Not getting into this on the thread right now. You know when I first saw the comment about being raped b/c of what your are wearing I thought to myself "well that's ignorant" but I chose not to engage. I am shocked at how many people are perpetuating this conversation.It's incredibly difficult not to correct horrifically common, incorrect, and harmful assumptions when I come across them. Even when I know that it's not in my best interest to do so. You know what, you are right. I am going to let my kid believe hte entire world is sunshine and unicorn farts and that everyone is always going to agree with and support her choices. That's not even close to what I said, I'm just trying to point out the logical fallacy of saying "It's not your fault BUT..." to someone who's been victimized. It doesn't work. The but in that sentence negates the first part of it. Anything that comes after that BUT is something they should have done and didn't, which, had they not done it, would have prevented the victimization in the first place. Yes, but she's claiming that anytime you tell your child they can't do what they want, you are telling them "I don't love you unless you change", which is a big load of BS. Except she was talking about that in the context of white makeup (I believe) which is a completely different order of magnitude than whether or not a kid is allowed to do heroin. Saying yes in one instance where her child wants to express himself and she doesn't stop him does NOT mean she wouldn't ever say no.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 12, 2012 12:05:59 GMT -5
::I am not claiming that telling your kid that they can't do what they want is exactly the same as telling them you don't love them. But I AM saying that you run the risk of giving them that impression. raeoflyte's in laws probably never told their child they didn't love him or he wasn't good enough. What they did do was try to make him into something he wasn't and leave him with a lifetime of unhappy childhood memories.::
You only run that risk if you've already done a crappy job of parenting up to that point. In that respect it's no different than anything else. If you do a crappy job of parenting you run a risk that your kids feel crappy about themselves. It has nothing to do with telling them what to wear, their makeup, or anything else. It has everything to do with how you raised them up to that point where you have to tell them no.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 12:05:59 GMT -5
It seems like you are trying to be vicious
I can see that, sorry if it comes across that way, I'm really not trying to be.
My point is we can get mad all we want that their are assholes and their reactions are something that we don't like. But we can't stop the fact that there are assholes in the world and that the react.
It's my job to teach my kid to embrace who she is and how to deal with the assholes of the world. But it is also my job to teach her when it is a good idea to NOT deal with the assholes in the world and how to not make yourself a target for them.
I love my gay friend and I think he has every right to be out and proud, but he nearly got himself killed behaving like he did because he wanted to prove a point.
You can prove a point without painting a giant target on your head. You can embrace who you are without attracting every ahole within a 5 mile radius.
A kid isn't capable of making those kind of calls. To ME putting my son in a girl's pink poofy coat is painting a giant target on his forehead and screaming "come and get me!".
Allowing him to wear the color pink is embracing who he is and that he likes pink.
He's going to probably at some point be judged for both, but the former could end up with much more serious consequences than the former.
Until my kid is old enough to distigusih for herself which is which I have to be the one to do it. If that makes me a mean judgemental unloving mom so be it.
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