NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:15:08 GMT -5
Please don't ever tell your child they look like trash. There is only one thing that they will hear from that statement and it breaks my heart.
Well I don't know if I will use the word "trash" exactly, but she's going to be called out. I tried to get away with wearing a sheer top and no bra that left little to the imagination the moment I stepped into the sunlight.
My mom ordered me to change because I was exposing what little assets I had to the entire universe. I fought her on it because it was "no big deal" but she stuck to her guns.
20/20 hindsight I know the subtext is I looked like trash and she was right. It doesn't devestate me to know my mom was calling me out for dressing trashy. She didn't think *I* was trash but I certainly was not "dressing like a lady" either.
Transgendered is a different issue entirely to me, IMHO that would require help in handling since I am not even remotely qualified to help my kid thru something like that.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2012 11:15:10 GMT -5
I went to HS with a girl who went extreme goth/punk her senior year and just didn't understand why people made fun of her. Um, probably because your hair is shaped like a mushroom, you are wearing chains and combat boots, and you have black makeup on?
Not that it's right, because she otherwise was a lovely person, but she put herself out there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:19:07 GMT -5
I went "goth" in high school. My mom allowed it, as long as I was not out with her. I did not have any problems at school with it, I did not wear it at work and I find the comments of "looking like a freak" offensive. You dressed outside of the societal norms, although within the norm of a certain group. Much like a boy wearing pink, you are going to get judged. While I'm sure DQ would never say anything to your face, you have to expect that she (and others) would look at you & think "WTF" & wonder why you choose to dress that way.
And honestly, I don't care if people judged me then or now. What I care about is people, on here, deciding to call people who dress in a different way freaks. It is offensive, and just as likely to get people judged as a teenager wearing goth attire, probably more. Teens grow out of things.
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cranberry49
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Post by cranberry49 on Jul 12, 2012 11:19:15 GMT -5
You say in your statements that 'we are punishing our child' by telling them that they can't dress or look the way they want too. You are the one that is putting way too much emphasis on clothing! Plus, you went as far as to tell us that we are sending the wrong message to our child by doing so. Including saying (in a non-verbal way) that we are in retrospect saying that we don't love them! WTF? How do you change this to me making a big deal out of it? I say you need to step in and be a parent regardless of the situation and sometimes you just have to say NO!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 12, 2012 11:22:02 GMT -5
I have never been sick reading anything on this board until now.
Word. I actually feel nauseated right now. I'm trying to skim the responses so I'm not tempted to get into the rape apology muck this thread is offering... I am determined to avoid that right now... but it's damn hard not to call out the fallacies of victim blaming every time I see them.
beerwench, susanb, mid, and gin are all in my karma queue. Thank you all for your posts.
Bullying is never okay, I don't think it si right to whollop on another person because he wore a pink shirt or she dressed goth.
But at the same time certain things are going to get you a negative reaction and unfortunately there are people out there who take it to the extreme.
Okay, you realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You "might" get a negative reaction from people, there are people who take negative reactions to extremes, you should expect that certain things should get you that negative reaction that could be taken to extremes... yet... it's never okay for someone to bully you?
This is the issue with victim blaming in a nutshell. It says "no, you shouldn't have been victimized but at the same time, you brought it on yourself by making X decision." It's like Mid said - ANY time you tack a "but" onto a statement about how you didn't deserve to be victimized, you negate the ENTIRE statement. You are telling the victim they deserved what they got, and that is what they hear. That is what they internalize.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:23:13 GMT -5
So true! I had some indication that DD (who is 6) was bullying a girl in her class (found a drawing in her backpack about a plan for her and her friends to "do something" to "Susie" during free time. She would also make snide remarks about the girl when we would talk about school).
Now I was the bullied kid in grade school so it would have been easy for me to help her out if she was being bullied...but her being the bully threw me for a loop. I told it is fine if she doesn't like Susie and that she doesn't have to like her, but she will NOT mistreat her. It is unacceptable for her to do anything to Susie and if I heard anything about her doing anything to or making fun of the girl she would be in big trouble. I said it was OK if she didn't want to play with Suzie but she was to be nice towards her anytime they had to interact.
As fate would have it, they ended up being assigned as reading partners in December and although they aren't super-chummy (no requests for playdates or anything like that) she did end up having nice things to say about Suzie by the end of the year.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 11:23:30 GMT -5
raeoflyte- Thank you for sharing your DH's story. That's pretty much the point I have been (apparently unsuccessfully) trying to get across. My only goal as a parent is to raise a kid that is happy, healthy and knows that he is loved and supported in all that he does. If some people think that makes me a bad parent I am ok with that.
I don't want my child to ever have the feeling that he isn't good enough for me or that I think he needs to change in order for society (and me) to accept him.
I spent years in therapy to get over the fact that my mother doesn't like me. I know she doesn't like me, I am her least favorite kid. I am ok with that now but I have pretty much no relationship with her. I have been alone with my mother once since I was 12. Once I spent a day helping her pick out furniture for her vacation home in California. That was 7 years ago and we haven't been anywhere alone again since then. Occasionally my sister will invite me to go with her and mom up to Ikea or something but it's never my mom's idea. My mom doesn't know or care about who I am. I know that in her eyes I am not good enough for her and I will be damned if my son will ever feel for one second that he is not good enough or worthy enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:24:15 GMT -5
And this is what I mean by adults doing their jobs, both parents and teachers. Bullying is not acceptable, instead of trying to change the victim, how about we start punishing the bullies? I know it can work but it work at my school and many of my friends' schools as well.
That's why I pointed out that in my son's case, nobody did their jobs until I lit fire under their asses. There was no way to change my son, even if I'd wanted to. I couldn't make him grow faster and I was happy he wasn't a budding thug like some of his classmates, so I didn't want him to change that either. Although I did tell him that the next time somebody put their hands on him, to beat their ass and I'd deal with the school. I didn't give him permission to start a fight, he couldn't hit first, but I was clear that he'd have no problems from me if he had to fight back to defend himself.
I told his principal exactly that. He wasn't pleased. I didn't care. I wasn't pleased that his teachers had looked the other way when other kids were mistreating and hitting my kid. He'd already followed the rules and told his teachers what the kids were doing.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 11:26:34 GMT -5
You dressed outside of the societal norms, although within the norm of a certain group. Much like a boy wearing pink, you are going to get judged. While I'm sure DQ would never say anything to your face, you have to expect that she (and others) would look at you & think "WTF" & wonder why you choose to dress that way.
And honestly, I don't care if people judged me then or now. What I care about is people, on here, deciding to call people who dress in a different way freaks. It is an anonymous message board & they are sharing their opinions. I'm sorry that their opinions hurt you, but I'm guessing a good percent of the population looks at someone dressed in goth with mime makeup on & thinks "freak" because it is outside of the norm. If I dye my hair bright purple, get a face tattoo, wear bright pink polka dotted pants with bikini top, then people are going to call me a freak. When you go outside the norm, people are going to think you are odd.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2012 11:27:46 GMT -5
And this is what I mean by adults doing their jobs, both parents and teachers. Bullying is not acceptable, instead of trying to change the victim, how about we start punishing the bullies? I know it can work but it work at my school and many of my friends' schools as well.That's why I pointed out that in my son's case, nobody did their jobs until I lit fire under their asses. There was no way to change my son, even if I'd wanted to. I couldn't make him grow faster and I was happy he wasn't a budding thug like some of his classmates, so I didn't want him to change that either. Although I did tell him that the next time somebody put their hands on him, to beat their ass and I'd deal with the school. I didn't give him permission to start a fight, he couldn't hit first, but I was clear that he'd have no problems from me if he had to fight back to defend himself. I told his principal exactly that. He wasn't pleased. I didn't care. I wasn't pleased that his teachers had looked the other way when other kids were mistreating and hitting my kid. He'd already followed the rules and told his teachers what the kids were doing. Pink, I am horrified the school knew your kid was getting hit and didn't do anything. What you told your kid is exactly what I'm going to tell mine. You do NOT hit people. But if someone hits you, on purpose, you have every right to smack them back. Hard.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 12, 2012 11:28:14 GMT -5
LOLl! Read the following using the generic "I, me, mine" I'm not this deluded or evil. I'm always so relieved when someone points out that my bad behaviour isn't 100% my fault - that I was ENCOURAGED to do that bad stuff by someone/something else. It's NOT my fault when I make fun of people because of their size/shape/color/clothing - they were expecting it and encouraged my bad behaviour! It's not my fault that I hit other people when THEY make me mad - they deserved it! It's not my fault when I have to verbally abuse the cashier/customer relations person for their poor service they were asking for it! It's not my fault when I do bad stuff... other people MAKE me do it! All that above is not really ME... I'm responsible for my actions and behavior 100% no one makes me be rude when I get poor service - I CHOSE to act that way - actually I try to be mindful of my behaviour (since I'm in control) and I try to NOT be rude. I can only conclude that other people are also 100% responsible for their actions (unless there's some mental illness involved - you're still responsible if your high or drunk). I love it when someone implies that people aren't ultimately responsible for their bad behaviour. Being in a dangerous situation (a woman alone with a man/men with bad intentions, a kid being physically bullied, a guy getting pressured to something dangerous) isn't about what you are wearing, the color of your skin, the way you walk, the shoes you are wearing - it's about POWER - who has it and what they are willing to do with. It's always about POWER/who's in control. I know the Milgram experiments show how people will do bad things when told to do so by someone in power/authority and not feel they are being 'bad' (and may indicate they aren't truly responsible for their actions), but still... maybe that just indicates that ALL humans should be encouraged to reach self actualization...
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 12, 2012 11:28:19 GMT -5
Transgendered is a different issue entirely to me, IMHO that would require help in handling since I am not even remotely qualified to help my kid thru something like that. Of course it is, but being forced to dress and look a certain way for over a decade because his style was 'trash' left an impression that isn't going away. His parents didn't get what they're intended goal was, and instead they inadvertantly taught him to second guess everything about himself. I'm sure that isn't what they wanted to teach him, but that is still what he learned. There are many clothing options for young girls that I do not like and may not allow a potential daughter to wear. Many of the posts on here are headed to the forcing your children to do and act as you think they should and that just bugs the crap out of me. Maybe find out why your kid wants to dress goth, or wear pink, or wear shorts that her ass hangs out of. You might still say no to the expression, but parenting is more than saying no.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 12, 2012 11:29:02 GMT -5
Here's the thing, Firebird. Nobody here blames the victim for anything. I guess I should say that I don't. I can't speak for everyone. People get all upset if a person even mentions there are ways to make yourself less attractive as a victim. Sorry. But there are. It's reality. It's not blame-placing. Counsel a room full of women who have basically had their lives taken away from them. Have them ask if there is anything they can do to lessen their chances of ever having to go through it again. Are you going to tell them there is nothing they can do? Cause that isn't true and it's harmful. There ARE things a person can do to lessen their chances of being attacked. It has nothing to do with blame placing - it has to do with prevention.
Are you going to have your children vaccinated? Do you plan on trying to keep their diet balanced? Will you dress them warmly enough in the winter? Sure. They might still get sick, but you are lessening the chances. Doesn't mean it's your fault or their fault if they do get sick, but you can dang well do everything you can to prevent it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 11:29:19 GMT -5
Does anyone even think about the fact that the kid is 6? I don't know about you guys but my mom picked out what I wore until i got old enough to buy my own stuff. If you don't want your kid to wear pink, don't buy it for him. If you don't want your daughter to wear hoochey momma clothes, don't buy them for her. DD went through some awful phases including the back hair phase and I'm sure, out of my sight, she dressed differently as well. But under my roof and with my money, my kids wore what I told them to wear, period. After awhile, their own sense, common and otherwise, kicks in but in the meantime, I'm not going to be judged as a parent because my dd looks like a streetwalker and I don't want her judged as one, either. Or a mime, or a goth or whatever the flavor of the month is.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jul 12, 2012 11:29:41 GMT -5
I have never been sick reading anything on this board until now. Some of the people on here have been the most offensive, ignoramuses I have the displeasure of hearing from. First of all, women do not get raped based on what they are wearing. The most commonly worn outfit of a rape victim is a hoodie and pants. Rape is not about sex, but about power. Anyone on here that disagrees has not looked at the statistic or is choosing to perpetuate a complete false stereotype. Either way it is disgusting. Secondly, in most school, if parents and teachers do their jobs, wearing a pink shirt or making out with your boyfriend in hall, will not get you bullied. It is the responsibility of the adults to do their job. Their might be a little teasing but not bullying. Third, those whose parents have supported them and are therefore confident in themselves have less issues with others (bullying, physical attack, lack of friends) than those who are trying to hide who they are from everyone, including themselves, because they have been taught it is not ok. Fourth, TLoony, being gay is normal, your attitude is one that is not and you are lucky you do not own your store anywhere around my area because no one would shop their in response to your attitude or behavior. You know when I first saw the comment about being raped b/c of what your are wearing I thought to myself "well that's ignorant" but I chose not to engage. I am shocked at how many people are perpetuating this conversation. My DD was invited to Pridefest by 2 classmates. She told her Dad and he told her lots of straight people go, and that she could go if she wanted. DD also told me. I wanted to ask her if they were gay or not, but did not feel communicating to my daughter that that was an important issue one way or the other, was something I wanted to do.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 12, 2012 11:30:20 GMT -5
::When a little boy wants to wear pink and you tell him you can't you are punishing him. Not in the sense that you are sending him to his room without supper but in the sense that you are telling him he isn't good enough and he has to change in order for you to love him::
So if he wants to go to school without any pants or underwear on, and you make him put them on, are you telling him you won't love him unless he makes the change? Just because you make your kid do certain things does not equate to "if you don't change then I won't love you". What if he's 12 and wants to wear something racist or sexist? I assume you won't let him. I also assume that not letting him doesn't mean "I don't love you unless you change".
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 12, 2012 11:31:12 GMT -5
I think trash is being defined in two different ways here.
I think DQ is referring to "trashy" meaning looking like a hoochie mamma. And I will not let my DD look like a hoochie mama. If she wants to dress in boys clothes, that's fine, but she' not showing her goods to the world.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 12, 2012 11:32:23 GMT -5
LOLl! Read the following using the generic "I, me, mine" I'm not this deluded or evil. I'm always so relieved when someone points out that my bad behaviour isn't 100% my fault - that I was ENCOURAGED to do that bad stuff by someone/something else. It's NOT my fault when I make fun of people because of their size/shape/color/clothing - they were expecting it and encouraged my bad behaviour! It's not my fault that I hit other people when THEY make me mad - they deserved it! It's not my fault when I have to verbally abuse the cashier/customer relations person for their poor service they were asking for it! It's not my fault when I do bad stuff... other people MAKE me do it! If only you hadn't brought that candy to work I wouldn't be FAT!
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Jul 12, 2012 11:32:28 GMT -5
You say in your statements that 'we are punishing our child' by telling them that they can't dress or look the way they want too. You are the one that is putting way too much emphasis on clothing! Plus, you went as far as to tell us that we are sending the wrong message to our child by doing so. Including saying (in a non-verbal way) that we are in retrospect saying that we don't love them! WTF? How do you change this to me making a big deal out of it? I say you need to step in and be a parent regardless of the situation and sometimes you just have to say NO! I'll answer in the event this was directed at me. I am not saying you are actually telling your kid you don't love them or they aren't good enough but you run the risk of giving them that impression. I am sure that you love your kids but I am also sure that teenagers read into things and have a tendency to over analyze things. I would hate for my kid to misinterpret what I am saying and have it cause long reaching problems and damage our relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:32:45 GMT -5
::When a little boy wants to wear pink and you tell him you can't you are punishing him. Not in the sense that you are sending him to his room without supper but in the sense that you are telling him he isn't good enough and he has to change in order for you to love him:: So if he wants to go to school without any pants or underwear on, and you make him put them on, are you telling him you won't love him unless he makes the change? Just because you make your kid do certain things does not equate to "if you don't change then I won't love you". What if he's 12 and wants to wear something racist or sexist? I assume you won't let him. I also assume that not letting him doesn't mean "I don't love you unless you change". EXACTLY!!!!!!!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 11:33:25 GMT -5
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 12, 2012 11:34:44 GMT -5
This is the issue with victim blaming in a nutshell. It says "no, you shouldn't have been victimized but at the same time, you brought it on yourself by making X decision." It's like Mid said - ANY time you tack a "but" onto a statement about how you didn't deserve to be victimized, you negate the ENTIRE statement. You are telling the victim they deserved what they got, and that is what they hear. That is what they internalize. I disagree, the "but" is important. It isn't something you say to the victim ever, but when we are looking at these incidents from the outside, it is important to not how sometimes victims put themselves in bad situations. We aren't talking about a specific rape here, so I don't see the issue with saying that walking alone, in a bad neighborhood, dressed provacatively is a bad idea & increases your odds of getting raped. Really how is that statement offensive?? Does anyone disagree with it's accuracy?? The "but" has to be out there, not necessarily said. There are things we can do to decrease the odds of being a victim - are we really supposed to ignore those things?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:34:51 GMT -5
And honestly, I don't care if people judged me then or now. What I care about is people, on here, deciding to call people who dress in a different way freaks. It is an anonymous message board & they are sharing their opinions. I'm sorry that their opinions hurt you, but I'm guessing a good percent of the population looks at someone dressed in goth with mime makeup on & thinks "freak" because it is outside of the norm. If I dye my hair bright purple, get a face tattoo, wear bright pink polka dotted pants with bikini top, then people are going to call me a freak. When you go outside the norm, people are going to think you are odd. It does not hurt me, it make me mad and sad for any child they have influence over.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:36:00 GMT -5
You "might" get a negative reaction from people, there are people who take negative reactions to extremes, you should expect that certain things should get you that negative reaction that could be taken to extremes... yet... it's never okay for someone to bully you? You know what, you are right. I am going to let my kid believe hte entire world is sunshine and unicorn farts and that everyone is always going to agree with and support her choices.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:36:22 GMT -5
This is the issue with victim blaming in a nutshell. It says "no, you shouldn't have been victimized but at the same time, you brought it on yourself by making X decision." It's like Mid said - ANY time you tack a "but" onto a statement about how you didn't deserve to be victimized, you negate the ENTIRE statement. You are telling the victim they deserved what they got, and that is what they hear. That is what they internalize. I disagree, the "but" is important. It isn't something you say to the victim ever, but when we are looking at these incidents from the outside, it is important to not how sometimes victims put themselves in bad situations. We aren't talking about a specific rape here, so I don't see the issue with saying that walking alone, in a bad neighborhood, dressed provacatively is a bad idea & increase your odds of getting raped. Really how is that statement offensive?? Does anyone disagree with it's accuracy?? The "but" has to be out there, not necessarily said. There are things we can do to decrease the odds of being a victim - are we really supposed to ignore those things? As I have said before, there is absolutely not evidence that dressing provocatively influences if you get raped or not. In fact the most common clothes women wear while being raped are hoodies and pants.
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kindthatjingles
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Post by kindthatjingles on Jul 12, 2012 11:36:39 GMT -5
Here's the thing, Firebird. Nobody here blames the victim for anything. I guess I should say that I don't. I can't speak for everyone. People get all upset if a person even mentions there are ways to make yourself less attractive as a victim. Sorry. But there are. It's reality. It's not blame-placing. Counsel a room full of women who have basically had their lives taken away from them. Have them ask if there is anything they can do to lessen their chances of ever having to go through it again. Are you going to tell them there is nothing they can do? Cause that isn't true and it's harmful. There ARE things a person can do to lessen their chances of being attacked. It has nothing to do with blame placing - it has to do with prevention. Are you going to have your children vaccinated? Do you plan on trying to keep their diet balanced? Will you dress them warmly enough in the winter? Sure. They might still get sick, but you are lessening the chances. Doesn't mean it's your fault or their fault if they do get sick, but you can dang well do everything you can to prevent it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 11:38:06 GMT -5
You "might" get a negative reaction from people, there are people who take negative reactions to extremes, you should expect that certain things should get you that negative reaction that could be taken to extremes... yet... it's never okay for someone to bully you? You know what, you are right. I am going to let my kid believe hte entire world is sunshine and unicorn farts and that everyone is always going to agree with and support her choices. <<ships Big Johnson t-shirt and plaid Crocs in baby sizes to DQ>>
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 12, 2012 11:38:27 GMT -5
I would hate for my kid to misinterpret what I am saying and have it cause long reaching problems and damage our relationship.
And I would hate for my kid to have something happen to her because I was too scared of hurting her feelings to put the kibosh on something.
I think rae's husband's situation is a little different (though I totally agree with her) and honestly don't know what I'd do depending on the age at which signs began to appear she was transgendered.
That's why I said I'd get help in those kind of scenarios.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 12, 2012 11:38:35 GMT -5
I need to qualify that when I say "attractive", I don't mean it in the "oh you are sexy" sense. I think that may be a misleading word.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 12, 2012 11:39:43 GMT -5
You know what? Then you raise your rat tail haired son with the pink shirt on and hope for the best. In the real world, he might be considered a joke and you a bad parent but if you are both fine with it, so be it. I'll raise mine the way I want and if I'm a bad parent, so be it.
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